N. Korea Aircraft Makes Emergency Landing At Bangkok's Don Mueang Airport

[LaoPo]

N.Korean Arms Cache 'Bound for Sudan'

A Georgian cargo plane carrying North Korean weapons that was intercepted in Thailand last Saturday was bound for Sudan, reports say. Christian LeMiere, the editor of Jane's Intelligence Weekly, told AP on Tuesday that the aviation path of the plane suggested it was heading to Sudan, where they might have been handed over to armed groups in Somalia through Chad and Eritrea.

Siemon Wezeman of the Arms Transfers Project of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, agreed, telling AP that the "types of arms found in the aircraft -- used to add firepower against planes and tanks in the arsenal of government forces -- were typical of those used by insurgent movements, and raised suspicion they could be headed for an African rebel group."

Meanwhile, the Bangkok Post on Tuesday reported that the U.S. had been monitoring the plane by satellite since five Europeans were spotted loading what appeared to be weapons on it in Pyongyang.

Circumstantial evidence suggests the involvement of international arms smugglers. Although the detained cargo plane belongs to Georgian airliner Air West, it was leased to a Ukrainian trade company named SP Trading on Nov. 5. AP said the plane was registered under three companies previously owned by the now-jailed Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout, dubbed the "Merchant of Death." Bout is notorious for his leading role in arms deals covering Russia, Ukraine, and Africa.

Thai authorities have mobilized over 100 weapons specialists to determine the types and destination of the North Korean weapons found in 145 boxes on the plane. A Thai court on Tuesday rejected a request for bail by the plane's five crew.

Source: The Chosun/Korea

"the Bangkok Post on Tuesday reported that.....the U.S. had been monitoring the plane by satellite since five Europeans were spotted loading what appeared to be weapons on it in Pyongyang."

Apart from the amazing satellite monitoring and ......"appeared" to be weapons in the wooden crates......do the North Koreans not have people who are loading planes and how on earth did they know these five men were Europeans or did they wear caps: I am from Europe ?

Jerusalem says Iran, Korea says Sudan.....

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

DECEMBER 17, 2009

New Zealand Probes Arms-Cache Link

Officials Investigate Auckland Firm's Role in North Korean Shipment Seized in Bangkok; A Tangle of Companies

By PATRICK BARTA, DANIEL MICHAELS and SIMON LOUISSON

New Zealand officials are investigating whether an Auckland-based company has links to a weapons-filled plane from North Korea that was detained in Bangkok last week.

Investigators are still unsure where the plane—carrying 35 tons of missiles, explosives and other armaments—was heading or who coordinated the flight plan. Its five-member crew, from Kazakhstan and Belarus, remains in detention in Bangkok and all five have denied knowledge there were weapons onboard.

Officials in Kazakhstan and the Republic of Georgia have said the aircraft, which is managed by Georgia-registered carrier Air West Ltd., was leased to carry the cargo by SP Trading Ltd., a New Zealand-registered company with offices in Auckland.

Air West director Nodar Kakabadze said he had no information about SP Trading.

"We signed a contract with SP Trading Nov. 4 this year to carry out some flights. That's it," Mr. Kakabadze said by phone from the freight company's base in the Black Sea port city of Batumi, Georgia. "I know nothing more about the company, and we'd never worked with them before," he said.

A copy of the lease agreement between Air West and SP Trading, obtained by Georgian aviation officials and viewed by The Wall Street Journal, lists a person named Lu Zhang as SP Trading's director. New Zealand government records indicate SP Trading was incorporated there in July of this year and also list Lu Zhang as its director.

"We are indeed aware of this issue and the alleged link to New Zealand," said a spokesman for New Zealand's Foreign Ministry. "We are urgently seeking more information," the spokesman said.

Attempts to locate Lu Zhang and contact SP Trading were unsuccessful Wednesday. A reporter who visited SP Trading's registered offices—located in a nine-story building across from Auckland's town hall—was unable to obtain access to the floor listed on the records.

The weapons shipment is among the first detained under new United Nations Security Council rules created in June to curb North Korea's ability to sell and transport weapons. Security experts believe the country reaps hundreds of millions of dollars a year from arms trading, and international security experts are following the latest case closely in the hope that it will reveal more about how North Korea moves the weapons. The latest rules were developed after North Korea tested a nuclear explosive in late May in defiance of previous U.N. sanctions.

Thai government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn said late Wednesday that Thai officials had finished opening the 140 or more crates from the plane's cargo bay and would release a report within a few days detailing what they found. Some of the boxes included surface-to-air missiles and 50 or so tube launchers with computerized weapon-controls, but there was no immediate evidence of weapons of mass destruction, he said.

Unraveling the details of the mission, however, could take a long time. Thai authorities have said the plane flew to Pyongyang via Bangkok last week to collect its cargo, and then returned to Bangkok to refuel on Friday. Thai authorities impounded the aircraft and confiscated the weapons, which also included rocket-propelled grenades and other equipment.

Thai officials say the plane was due next to fly to Sri Lanka, but Sri Lankan officials say they had no knowledge of the flight and international security experts doubt the island nation was the plane's final destination. Weapons experts say it is more likely the flight was ultimately headed for the Middle East, Pakistan or an African country such as Sudan.

According to New Zealand records, SP Trading has a single New Zealand shareholder, which in turn has one shareholder, a company with offices in the South Pacific island nation of Vanuatu. New Zealand records show multiple other companies with the same officials registered at the same Auckland address as SP.

According to its Web site, the Vanuatu company provides offshore company incorporation and nominee services. Attempts to reach that company by phone over two days were unsuccessful.

—Samantha Shields contributed to this article.

Source: The Wall Street Journal

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1260987203...ttoWhatsNewsTop

LaoPo

[elshaheen]

Ah, Victor Bout is back in business again. I knew from the moment he was released from detention here in Thailand and flew back to Moscow he would connect back with his old company Air West.

Where did you get that information ?

Victor (Viktor) Bout is in a Thai prison, Klong Prem Central Prison, a high security prison and the same prison as where the Ilyushin-76 crew is detained.

LaoPo

Mr. LaoPo;

You sound like a very intelligent man on here. Don't get me wrong.

I know Mr. Bout, worked with him in Pakistan, once while he was in United Emmerates, and seen him in Pattaya a few times. Even before his capture by Thai and U.S. government.

Until you get your facts in order, please do a little reading, try to make contact with his wife, go to the prision and ask to speak to Mr. Bout, because you know he is still there in his cell. They both took off back to Russia right after he was released. But, I know you are a very smart man, don't get me wrong.

[webfact]

NORTH KOREAN WEAPONS

Seized weapons 'may not be destroyed': Abhisit

By The Nation

Published on December 17, 2009

Thailand may make use of certain types of weapons seized from a Georgian-registered cargo plane instead of destroying them as required by a UN protocol, Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said yesterday.

He said technical explanations regarding the matter would be given by officials responsible for the protocol process.

Asked by reporters to clarify his remarks on further on use of the weapons, he simply said: "If we don't need to demolish them, we can make use of them."

Asked if seizing the weapons would put the Kingdom at risk of terrorist attack, he said: "Thailand does not get itself involved at the centre of any conflict. We're just following a UN protocol, and all countries involved [in this operation] have a good understanding of it."

Asked what Thailand would gain from this action, the prime minister said: "Everyone benefits from us following a UN protocol. If we had failed to act, and these weapons were later found to have travelled through Thailand, we'd pay a price for that. What is needed is for us to prove to the world that we are a good member [of the UN] without getting ourselves into the centre of any conflict whatsoever."

Abhisit said it was not yet clear who the intended buyers of the weapons were and cited a Crime Suppression Division (CSD) report that English-language instructions found on the boxes meant the weapons could not have been sent from North Korea.

Asked if he could confirm weapons had not originated from North Korea, Abhisit said: "No one has confirmed that."

He also said he saw no links between arms dealer Viktor Bout and the seized arms despite, in his words, "efforts to link them together".

He also said: "To my understanding, demolition of the weapons may not happen, or maybe it will for a small number of weapons, because they are not the types that are required to be demolished."

Air Force commander Air Chief Marshall Itthiphorn Supphawong said the UN protocol would dictate what to do with the weapons and that Thailand would receive no reward or bounty for the seizure.

Meanwhile, a source with the CSD, which helped inspect the weapons cache, acknowledged reports that a box containing rocket tubes was possibly missing from the original number of 145 reported in media.

However, the source said there was no solid evidence of any box disappearing and that even if one were missing, there was no reason to believe it contained rocket tubes specifically.

"There is one metal box with one serial number missing," the source said.

The source declined to speculate on whether the alleged disappearance was merely a counting mistake or if there really was a box missing based on the original count.

-- The Nation 2009/12/17

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[LaoPo]

Ah, Victor Bout is back in business again. I knew from the moment he was released from detention here in Thailand and flew back to Moscow he would connect back with his old company Air West.

Where did you get that information ?

Victor (Viktor) Bout is in a Thai prison, Klong Prem Central Prison, a high security prison and the same prison as where the Ilyushin-76 crew is detained.

LaoPo

Mr. LaoPo;

You sound like a very intelligent man on here. Don't get me wrong.

I know Mr. Bout, worked with him in Pakistan, once while he was in United Emmerates, and seen him in Pattaya a few times. Even before his capture by Thai and U.S. government.

Until you get your facts in order, please do a little reading, try to make contact with his wife, go to the prision and ask to speak to Mr. Bout, because you know he is still there in his cell. They both took off back to Russia right after he was released. But, I know you are a very smart man, don't get me wrong.

I have to admit Mr. elshaheen that you make me speechless.

What do you know that we don't ? ....."he was released ?"....WHEN ?

LaoPo

[brahmburgers]

The death penalty is too harsh for those 5 gun runners.

If Thai authorities want to show how tough they are, they can work with Int'l authorities to find and apprehend the prime players.

On a related note, it's amazing that there is so much speculation on the destination of the arms. One official makes a first mention of Iran (plausible), another official mentions Somalia (which I had mentioned a few days earlier). I'm guessing that if one draws a line on a map between Somalia and Bangkok, Sri Lanka is about halfway along that line. Even tiny Vanuatu is in the game.

So many countries on the dartboard, that anyone closely watching this drama unfold will get a mini-education in geography, if nothing else.

[geriatrickid]

The death penalty is too harsh for those 5 gun runners.

If Thai authorities want to show how tough they are, they can work with Int'l authorities to find and apprehend the prime players.

The likelihood of the death penalty here is a big fat zero.

However, I would like to know why is it too harsh? These are people that are supplying the tools that will facilitate the rape, murder and torture of thousands of people. There is something extremely disgusting with people that exploit ongoing oppression and genocide. Look at the potential recepients; Sudan: The Darfur genocide, or Somalia - A horrific clash between savage gangs or Iran- where a military dictatorship of brutality rapes, tortures and murders all that voice dissent, as well as one that seeks to start wars in the region.

Why is this crew any less guilty than the person that pulls the trigger? They knew very well what they were carrying. There is no way that this crew didn't know that they were carrying contraband. They knew what the weapons would be used for and it wasn't going to be hunting possum for the evening stew. You know the old excuse the gun lobby uses to oppose the regulation of firearms? Well I am tossing it back at you. People kill and guns are just the instruments of death. The crew needs to take responsibility for its actions.

I don't think it is a question of the Thais showing how tough they are, but is one of being responsible and doing the right thing as well as protecting sovereignty and national interests. However, I agree with identifying the prime players. I suggest the investigators start with the embassy officials from Kazakhstan and Belarus that quickly appeared with bail money in an attempt to free the crew. I think at the end of the day, we will see that the governments of these 2 countries are implicated along with the Georgians.

[Credo]

The Thais won't be tough because that would mean taking a stand and that might draw attention or repercussions which they really don't want.

They were informed by another country; that's the reason they checked this flight. The big issue now is how much face has been lost by the other flights that have gotten through?

[Bagwan]

Come on folks. What time of year is it? This is a pantomime. Thailand has plenty of strapping young lasses to play the male lead but I'm wondering who will dress up in drag to play the Mother role. No shortage of fairies to play the Godmother either.

On the other hand maybe this is the come to life plot of a Thai version of a James Bond movie. Can you imagine the chase scene with 007 and his pursuers hurtling down Sukhumvit in tuk-tuks? Given that the road and the pavements are unusable, would Q provide the hero, Somjai Bombed, with an airborne threewheeler?

Seems to me that the world and his wife, including several contributors here, are dashing around in ever increasing circles. Am holding my breath to see who is the first to disappear up his own fundamental orifice. This thread should display a Government mental health warning.

[ferd54]

Fortunately for the people of Sudan, or wherever these weapons were headed, the fact they originated in North Korea means the weapons were tracked, stopped and investigations will be thorough. If the haul had come from the Ukraine, it sadly would likely have reached its destination with no problem.

We can only hope this is close to the final straw for China and that it finds it can no longer give even tacit support to old Kim Jong Ill.

All in all this was a very good bust on several levels. Good on the Thais that they are willing to step up to the plate.

[Publicus]

This seizure is kicking up some er, dust.

Since getting the UNSC resolution against N Korea the US knew that one seizure of this kind would begin to reveal a web of countries, governments, corporations, stockholders, airlines, persons, routes, points of origin and of destinations etc etc that we're only now beginning to see be unraveled. We know the webs exist and intelligence agencies likely have some good info about the networks, so this incident allows a ton of publicity to be heaped upon the perps from the bottom where the five aircrew are to governments and people at the top such as Bout and collaborating governments in his region of the world.

I still can't believe the Thai court denied the extradition request for Bout by the US Government. Some people in Thailand likely could be found to have acquired a spike of unusual wealth from that decision. Perhaps the cooperation of the Thai Government in this seizure is some measure of compensation to the US for the failure of the Thai judiciary to extradite Bout to the US. 

[Credo]

Or it could be that the US decided to drop a dime on them and show the government how complicit it has been in the arms trafficking. There are a lot of possibilities. It will be interesting to see if Mr. Bout gets extradited anytime soon.

[hammered]

Fortunately for the people of Sudan, or wherever these weapons were headed, the fact they originated in North Korea means the weapons were tracked, stopped and investigations will be thorough. If the haul had come from the Ukraine, it sadly would likely have reached its destination with no problem.

We can only hope this is close to the final straw for China and that it finds it can no longer give even tacit support to old Kim Jong Ill.

All in all this was a very good bust on several levels. Good on the Thais that they are willing to step up to the plate.

It wont stop all the weapons and training that come from western democracies that are used to kill and maim and carry out hideous human rights violations, and which a very a big blind eye is turned to. Truth is N.Korea only supplies a negligible proportion of world armaments and doesnt even come near in competing with the weapons, devices, training and technology the west supplies even if we only look at severe human rights abusing countries. Still few of us like to face up to our own regimes carrying out such practices.

[TAWP]

Still hoping for an explanation or further investigation of why the Belarus and kazahkstan embassies moves so fast on behalf of their nationals.

Yeah, that was interesting.

Not like the UK embassy or mine would ever do the same.

[PhilHarries]

Abhisit said it was not yet clear who the intended buyers of the weapons were and cited a Crime Suppression Division (CSD) report that English-language instructions found on the boxes meant the weapons could not have been sent from North Korea.

Wow ...some amazing logic from Abhisit right there. Of course they couldn't come from North Korea if it was written in English, since there is no way that anyone in North Korea could write English, right?

Well it would've been daft if they were bound for London with the instructions in English!

Unless their destination was SW17 and they were to support the resurgent Tooting Popular Front.

Easy way to find out what the destrination was. Take the pilot aside and tell him he has two options:-

1. Keep schtum and he'll be released and sent back to Kazakhstan and the Thai government will issue a press release that he has told the CIA everything he knows and moves are afoot to bring the real criminals to justice.

or,

2. He tells everything he knows and the Thai government will lose him to a remote island populated by dozens of attracive maidens and resupplied weekly with his favourite foods and vodka. This arrangement will be for the remainder of his life or until he gets bored whichever the sooner.

[ferd54]

It wont stop all the weapons and training that come from western democracies that are used to kill and maim and carry out hideous human rights violations... N.Korea only supplies a negligible proportion of world armaments... Still few of us like to face up to our own regimes carrying out such practices.

True, but it also true that the people the West is now in conflict with -- Muslim extremists -- care actual ZERO for human rights, as they proved very clearly on 9/11 and so many, many times suicide bombers have knowingly blown up women and children, often fellow Muslims.

If the US was a brutal as those folks, they have the military power to literally obliterate them from the face of the earth -- but wouldn't dream of doing that.

So stop whanging on about human rights. I'm not sure beasts deserve them anyway.

[TAWP]

It wont stop all the weapons and training that come from western democracies that are used to kill and maim and carry out hideous human rights violations... N.Korea only supplies a negligible proportion of world armaments... Still few of us like to face up to our own regimes carrying out such practices.

True, but it also true that the people the West is now in conflict with -- Muslim extremists -- care actual ZERO for human rights, as they proved very clearly on 9/11 and so many, many times suicide bombers have knowingly blown up women and children, often fellow Muslims.

If the US was a brutal as those folks, they have the military power to literally obliterate them from the face of the earth -- but wouldn't dream of doing that.

So stop whanging on about human rights. I'm not sure beasts deserve them anyway.

You could open a history book and find out some things...

[hammered]

It wont stop all the weapons and training that come from western democracies that are used to kill and maim and carry out hideous human rights violations... N.Korea only supplies a negligible proportion of world armaments... Still few of us like to face up to our own regimes carrying out such practices.

True, but it also true that the people the West is now in conflict with -- Muslim extremists -- care actual ZERO for human rights, as they proved very clearly on 9/11 and so many, many times suicide bombers have knowingly blown up women and children, often fellow Muslims.

If the US was a brutal as those folks, they have the military power to literally obliterate them from the face of the earth -- but wouldn't dream of doing that.

So stop whanging on about human rights. I'm not sure beasts deserve them anyway.

Actually I was trying to not concentrate on the US but on the west.

Lots of women and children get killed by bombs dropped form aircraft too or drones or missiles or western troops or the troops of western allies. Is that not also denial of human rights? And we could then get back to how the weapons supplied by the west get used. Guess we shouldnt mention how the Khmer Rouge supported by western governments kept their UN seat after they were removed from power by the Vietnamese, or exactly how the Taliban came into existance or the country from which Al Qaeda originates or how Hamas back in the early days always had easy access to a certain western embassy when the "socialist" PLO were seen as a threat. Reading a bit of history from a variety of perspectives is usually quite revealing. North Korea may have a hideous regime and support a few causes the west doesnt like and even make a bit of cash on the side by exporting a bunch of aging weaponry (not like leading western countries dont) but it is hardly the great satan it is made out to be and its economy cant even support its own population beyond poverty level. Admittedly N. Korea did test a nuclear weapon that partially detonated but since the west ignored Israel developing a whole nuclear arsenal it can hardly criticse any other country that fancies the big weaponry without looking hypocritical and utterly bias.

I am by the way one of those people of the west and I am certainly not in conflict with anyone;)

Edited to add: I make a distinction between the people of the west (or any other place) and the regimes/governments and their vested interest groups by the way.

Edited December 17, 2009 by hammered

[bendejo]

I still can't believe the Thai court denied the extradition request for Bout by the US Government. Some people in Thailand likely could be found to have acquired a spike of unusual wealth from that decision. Perhaps the cooperation of the Thai Government in this seizure is some measure of compensation to the US for the failure of the Thai judiciary to extradite Bout to the US. 

It may be in Uncle Sam's interest to keep him away from the US legal system, where a good lawyer can get the case thrown out on a jive-assed technicality.

On the other hand, he probably has a hand phone and is still running his enterprise. Nice of the Thais to allow him a summit meeting with the new guys.

[ferd54]

Actually I was trying to not concentrate on the US but on the west.

Guess we shouldnt mention how the Khmer Rouge supported by western governments kept their UN seat after they were removed from power by the Vietnamese

All you politically correct whining critics of the West should at least get some true understanding of what lies underneath such things.

The Khmer Rouge was Maoist and backed by China. Even during the Cultural Revolution, they managed to go one better than the Chinese with the concept of year zero and destruction of all previous culture and "intellectuals". Likely goaded on by Mao, Pol Pot then attacked Vietnam, which was a client of the Soviet Union, probably because it was a "revisionist state" like the Soviets.

But if the US had gone back in to SE Asia and tried to stop the Killing Fields, your ilk would have whinged about the human rights violations.

Same with these drone attacks when civilians get killed. It's terrible, but I'm sure the military does everything it can to limit innocent people getting killed. The same cannot be said for its enemies.

Edited December 17, 2009 by ferd54

[toptuan]

NORTH KOREA WEAPONS SEIZED

US pleased with Thailand's strong action : Clinton

Well, thank goodness for that, I'm sure the thais only acted because they were worried about what the USA might think.

The USA being Thailand's biggest trading partner and strongest western ally, you're probably right.

[Publicus]

It wont stop all the weapons and training that come from western democracies that are used to kill and maim and carry out hideous human rights violations... N.Korea only supplies a negligible proportion of world armaments... Still few of us like to face up to our own regimes carrying out such practices.

True, but it also true that the people the West is now in conflict with -- Muslim extremists -- care actual ZERO for human rights, as they proved very clearly on 9/11 and so many, many times suicide bombers have knowingly blown up women and children, often fellow Muslims.

If the US was a brutal as those folks, they have the military power to literally obliterate them from the face of the earth -- but wouldn't dream of doing that.

So stop whanging on about human rights. I'm not sure beasts deserve them anyway.

Actually I was trying to not concentrate on the US but on the west.

Lots of women and children get killed by bombs dropped form aircraft too or drones or missiles or western troops or the troops of western allies. Is that not also denial of human rights? And we could then get back to how the weapons supplied by the west get used. Guess we shouldnt mention how the Khmer Rouge supported by western governments kept their UN seat after they were removed from power by the Vietnamese, or exactly how the Taliban came into existance or the country from which Al Qaeda originates or how Hamas back in the early days always had easy access to a certain western embassy when the "socialist" PLO were seen as a threat. Reading a bit of history from a variety of perspectives is usually quite revealing. North Korea may have a hideous regime and support a few causes the west doesnt like and even make a bit of cash on the side by exporting a bunch of aging weaponry (not like leading western countries dont) but it is hardly the great satan it is made out to be and its economy cant even support its own population beyond poverty level. Admittedly N. Korea did test a nuclear weapon that partially detonated but since the west ignored Israel developing a whole nuclear arsenal it can hardly criticise any other country that fancies the big weaponry without looking hypocritical and utterly bias. 

I am by the way one of those people of the west and I am certainly not in conflict with anyone;)

Edited to add: I make a distinction between the people of the west (or any other place) and the regimes/governments and their vested interest groups by the way.

To reiterate a point, the standards are consistent and the bias is both historical and maintained at great sacrifice, everything pointing in a certain direction - democracy, peace, prosperity.

Against were Hitler, Stalin, Mao and a long list of others. Presently against are bin Laden, the Taliban, Iran, the People's Republic of China, North Korea and yet another long list of others.  

We're dealing with the constants of democracy and the desire for peace, and the eternal quest of prosperity. These are biases indeed, and they have prevailed throughout generations of blood shed and sacrifice by far too many.

The shadowy and murky areas lie in the too frequent occurances of having to choose between proxies in the pursuit of the standards and purposes, ie, when one proxy is ruthless and the other proxy is heartless; or either (both) are just plain mad. The ongoing presence of ugly choices here and there does not obscure the nature of the larger and long term goal of democracy, peace, prosperity. 

Keep our eyes on the prize while exercising caution and limits in dealing with proxies. I think the Peace Prize to Pres Obama speaks well of the balance required and in fact exercised by we who are biased, past present and future.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Publicus

[Sturbuc]

Those 5 North Korean only had enough arms and ammo to protect themselves if they went down over hostile territory!

Might have been an ANTONOV plane to be rented (run by a Kazach or Russian company).

Edited December 17, 2009 by Sturbuc

[Sabre]

Actually I was trying to not concentrate on the US but on the west.

Guess we shouldnt mention how the Khmer Rouge supported by western governments kept their UN seat after they were removed from power by the Vietnamese

All you politically correct whining critics of the West should at least get some true understanding of what lies underneath such things.

The Khmer Rouge was Maoist and backed by China. Even during the Cultural Revolution, they managed to go one better than the Chinese with the concept of year zero and destruction of all previous culture and "intellectuals". Likely goaded on by Mao, Pol Pot then attacked Vietnam, which was a client of the Soviet Union, probably because it was a "revisionist state" like the Soviets.

But if the US had gone back in to SE Asia and tried to stop the Killing Fields, your ilk would have whinged about the human rights violations.

Same with these drone attacks when civilians get killed. It's terrible, but I'm sure the military does everything it can to limit innocent people getting killed. The same cannot be said for its enemies.

You haven't mentioned the role played by the United States in bombing villages in Cambodia thought to be sheltering Vietnamese troops.

I thought it was fairly widely accepted that it was the US interference that allowed the Khmer Rouge to take power...?

[LaoPo]

Thursday, Dec. 17, 2009

A New Job for Cast-Off Soviet Pilots and Planes: Global Arms Trafficking

By Simon Shuster / Kiev

It was no ordinary smuggling bust. On Dec. 11, an old Russian plane landed in Thailand to refuel after taking off hours earlier from Pyongyang, North Korea. In its hull, police found 35 tons of explosives, rocket-propelled grenades and components for surface-to-air missiles, all being transported from North Korea in breach of U.N. sanctions. The captain and his crew were promptly arrested and charged with illegally transporting arms. But according to experts, they were only tiny cogs in a global network for arms trafficking that feeds off the castaway pilots and planes of the former Soviet Union. Suspected smugglers like Russian Viktor Bout have used the system to transport weapons, as have huge U.S. military contractors like Kellogg, Brown and Root (KBR), though not for illegal purposes. And while the flight crews like the one stopped in Thailand face the prospect of long prison terms, the people behind this global arms-shipping service remain hidden in the shadows.

The chief engineer on the flight was Mikhail Petukhov, 54, an out-of-work Belarusian with nearly two decades of experience in the Soviet air force. His wife Vera told TIME by phone from Belarus that the flight was Petukhov's first for a company whose name he never told her. Before that, he had waited more than six months for a job. "That's how it always is," she says. "Only once in a while by chance they'll get a call about some one-off job. And they take what they can get. Once he was gone for three months and came back with only $50; other times it's more. Then he waits around again." She said he had never the other crew members, all Kazakhs, before he left in early December for Kiev, where the flight is believed to have originated.

Most of the time, the coordinators of these flights are fly-by-night companies set up to ship goods in violation of U.N. weapons sanctions or embargoes, says Hugh Griffiths, an expert on illegal arms trafficking at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. Analysts have said the weapons on board the flight from Pyongyang were probably meant for terrorist groups or rebels in the Middle East or Africa, the usual clients for these types of portable but high-impact arms. But authorities have thus far been unable to establish who arranged the shipment — the paper trails are too winding and the companies involved too murky.

However, there are clear connections between the seized plane and smuggling networks in Russia and Eastern Europe. Griffiths says the plane was previously registered to a company that has links to self-professed Serbian gunrunner Tomislav Damnjanovic and to three companies controlled by Bout, who has been dubbed the "Merchant of Death" by Russian media. Last year, Bout was arrested in Bangkok after allegedly offering to sell weapons to U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency officers posing as members of the Colombian rebel group FARC. While the U.S. seeks his extradition, Bout is being held at Klong Prem prison in Thailand, the same place where Petukhov and his crew are now jailed.

Damnjanovic has been accused of setting up other hauls like this one. According to a report published in 2007 by a U.N. Development Program (UNDP) research institute in Serbia, a company owned by Damnjanovic smuggled military equipment in 1996 to the regime of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi in Libya, which was then under U.N. sanctions. During one of the shipments, the pilot of an aircraft noticed problems with the plane's electrical systems. Damnjanovic insisted that the flight go ahead anyway, the U.N. report alleges, and offered the crew $2,000 extra apiece. Fifteen minutes after takeoff, the plane crashed near Belgrade and killed everyone on board, the report says. "[The pilot and crew], they are victims of circumstance. They are often paid extra money to accept a flight, often using planes that they know are not entirely safe. But they are so desperate for the money that they agree to take the flight," Griffiths says.

Repeated efforts to contact Damnjanovic, believed to be living in the United Arab Emirates, were unsuccessful. In a 2007 interview with the New York Times, he denied any involvement in illegal dealings and defended his involvement in arms shipments to places like Rwanda, calling his business "completely official." He said, "What somebody else does with the weapons when they get there is up to them."

Complicating matters is the fact that Damnjanovic has ties to U.S. defense contractors like KBR and General Dynamics, according to the same UNDP report. Both companies have hired Damnjanovic's companies in the past to ship equipment on behalf of the U.S. military. "The case study of the career of Tomislav Damnjanovic illustrates how smart arms smugglers work within and outside the law, trafficking to rogue states and African dictatorships under U.N. sanctions while at the same time supplying arms on behalf of some of America's biggest companies, such as General Dynamics and Kellogg, Brown and Root," the UNDP report states.

In a statement to TIME, Heather Browne, KBR's head of communications, said the company had no knowledge that the allegations in the UNDP report were true. "KBR is committed to providing high-quality service to our customer, the U.S. military, and conducting our business with ethics and integrity. The company in no way condones or tolerates anything to the contrary," the statement read. Rob Doolittle, a spokesman for General Dynamics, declined to comment on the report.

For out-of-work pilots in Eastern Europe, a job is a job no matter who is paying the bill. Vladimir Migol, a retired aircraft engineer who served with Petukhov in the Soviet air force in the 1980s, says that for many pilots, flying for these shadowy companies is the only type of work they can get. "Everybody knows that these planes sometimes get busted with stuff, or they crash," says Migol. "But you still have to fly. We all have families to feed, and the chips fall where they fall."

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...1948398,00.html

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Thailand Finds No Taepodong Missile Parts in N. Korean Plane

By Daniel Ten Kate

Dec. 17 (Bloomberg) -- Thai authorities have found no sign of components for Taepodong-2 long-range missiles in a plane carrying weapons from North Korea seized in Bangkok five days ago, government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn said.

The “larger systems” in the seized cargo may be North Korea’s M1991 or M1985 multiple launch rocket systems with a range of about 60 kilometers (37.2 miles), Panitan said by phone. Officials also found flight control systems, he said.

Thai authorities seized the Russian-made Ilyushin II-76 cargo aircraft on Dec. 12 after receiving tips from several different intelligence agencies. The seizure may shed light on North Korean arms deals, a key source of foreign-currency income for the reclusive state.

Reuters earlier cited a Thai government official it didn’t identify as saying the weapons seized in Thailand may include components for Taepodong-2 missiles and were probably destined for Iran. The Taepodong-2 is a product of joint efforts with Iran, coinciding with the country’s development of the Shehab-5 and 6 missiles, the report said.

Iran yesterday successfully tested an upgraded Sejil-2 surface-to-surface missile which a range of more than 2,000 kilometers, state-run Press TV reported. The Taepodong-2 has a range of at least 5,000 kilometers, according to the South Korean Defense Ministry.

Impounded

The plane was impounded under a United Nations resolution passed in June to punish Kim Jong Il’s regime for firing a Taepodong-2 rocket over the Sea of Japan in April and testing a second nuclear bomb a month later. Resolution 1874 authorizes increased inspections of North Korean air or sea cargo suspected of containing material usable in the development of nuclear weapons or ballistic missiles.

Thailand will take one to two weeks to complete its investigation into the seized plane, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban told reporters today. Thai officials should be cautious in specifying where the weapons were headed to avoid harming international relations, he said.

New Zealand officials are probing Auckland-based SP Trading Ltd., a company that reportedly hired Air West to transport the cargo, the Wall Street Journal reported, citing Air West director Nodar Kakabadze and documents. Air West is registered in the former Soviet republic of Georgia and manages the seized plane, which is also registered in Georgia.

The plane’s flight crew, including four men from Kazakhstan and one from Belarus, are being detained in Bangkok as they wait for prosecutors to press charges. Police can hold them for up to 84 days.

North Korea earns about $1.5 billion annually from missile sales, mostly to Iran via airports in China, the U.S.-based Institute for Foreign Policy Analysis said in a report this year.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...d=adJg6n7VEygs#

LaoPo

[brahmburgers]

Thanks LaoPo for posting that - some added info that we hadn't heard earlier.

It backs up my suggestion that the gun-runners shouldn't get death sentences. Perhaps the published threat is a ploy by Thai authorities to elicit more info from the luckless crew. Am no way excusing what the dregs did, it's just that punishment should fit the crime, and their crime is basically transporting weapons. Take away some of the extenuating circumstances and it's no different than what many upstanding countries do on a daily basis. Incidentally, South Africa, Israel and Brazil are major weapons sellers/shippers also - so it's not only the US and Europeans tho are big players in the ww weapons marketplace.

[webfact]

NORTH KOREAN ARMS PLANE

Thailand obliged to destroy seized arms shipment: Kasit

By The Nation

Published on December 18, 2009

Thailand obliged to destroy seized arms shipment: Kasit

Thailand is obliged under a UN protocol to demolish all weapons seized from a Georgiaregistered cargo plane impounded at Don Mueang Airport, Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya said yesterday.

"We can neither store the weapons seized nor make use of them. They are not ours, and as a good member country of the world community, it is our responsibility to proceed further [with the demolition]," Kasit said after a onehour meeting with Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban.

He did not give details of his discussion with Suthep.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, who is now on a trip to Copenhagen, on Wednesday hinted certain types of weapons might not be destroyed, but instead used by the Thai military.

Suthep, who handles internal security affairs, earlier met with commanders of the armed forces and later said the weapons seizure had not been discussed. During the meeting, the Navy said it already maintained marine patrols to watch out for arms smuggling as a routine operation.

He later said the entire process would take no more than two weeks to determine what to do with the weapons. Responding to Abhisit's statement regarding certain types of weapons possibly being used by the Thai military, he said: "The statement is premature."

Asked about the history of such weapons seizures and subsequent use of them in other countries, Suthep said: "I have not checked into details about such a practice in Middle East countries."

He did not say why he cited Middle East countries as an example.

Responding to unconfirmed reports about Iran as the destination of the II76 flight, Suthep said: "All statements concerning the issue must be carefully chosen and made, especially about the destinations in whatever country. Otherwise, people may become angry with us.

"Possibly some [are] getting mad at us already, but Thailand is doing everything in a transparent manner. The final statements would be made when the dust settles, within a week's time or two weeks."

The Air Force yesterday dismissed reports about a metal box missing from the 145 that were counted.

"The Air Force has confirmed the number of boxes remains at 145, both when the cargo plane was first inspected and when the weapons cache were stored at Takhli Air Base in Nakhon Sawan," said Air Force deputy spokesman Group Captain Monthon Satchukorn.

National Security Council secretarygeneral Thawil Pliensri said the operation was carried out solely by members of Thai intelligence communities, both military and civilian.

"There are no orders, commands or mandates given to us by outside authorities to undertake the action. Thailand has internal laws authorising all operations, while it is obligated to UN Resolution 1874," he said.

"Once we detect arms smuggling, we must impound them, seize them and dispose of them, then report all actions to the UN."

Thawil said Thailand was not creating more enemies through this operation and dismissed all political and mainstream criticism of it.

He said he expected more advice from the UN to proceed with the demolition.

"And it would be greatly appreciated if the UN shouldered all of the financial burden," Thawil added.

-- The Nation 2009/12/18

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[LaoPo]

Thanks LaoPo for posting that - some added info that we hadn't heard earlier.

It backs up my suggestion that the gun-runners shouldn't get death sentences. Perhaps the published threat is a ploy by Thai authorities to elicit more info from the luckless crew. Am no way excusing what the dregs did, it's just that punishment should fit the crime, and their crime is basically transporting weapons. Take away some of the extenuating circumstances and it's no different than what many upstanding countries do on a daily basis. Incidentally, South Africa, Israel and Brazil are major weapons sellers/shippers also - so it's not only the US and Europeans tho are big players in the ww weapons marketplace.

I agree; these guys come from dead poor countries where it's bitter cold and without any jobs.

Those guys will do anything to find a (flying) job and if anyone believes that the guy who hired them told them:

"hey guys, you know what, you're hired and paid to fly from Kiev/Ukraine to North Korea to pick up some 35 tons of weaponry and deliver it to XXXX country..."

is naive.

Maybe they knew, maybe not, but I think they weren't told upfront; that would be stupid of the people/organization who hired them. They were likely told they had to pick up some machinery or tools or just airfreight but no weapons. But of course, like anybody else.....I don't know.

To give them death penalties would be absurd. They're just some poor bus drivers with a pilot license.

It's nice to sit in a comfortable room behind our computers and judge about these chaps but we don't live in those bitter circumstances they do.

I'll bet they would want to fly in a nice suit with some stripes and stars, flying all around the world with passengers, rather than in some old plane to obscure countries loading obscure freight.

I wonder if our western sophisticated well-trained pilots could fly (and dare to fly) those old planes ? ...would they if they had no job anymore and no money to survive ?

hmm...interesting.

LaoPo

Edited December 18, 2009 by LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Ah, Victor Bout is back in business again. I knew from the moment he was released from detention here in Thailand and flew back to Moscow he would connect back with his old company Air West.

Where did you get that information ?

Victor (Viktor) Bout is in a Thai prison, Klong Prem Central Prison, a high security prison and the same prison as where the Ilyushin-76 crew is detained.

LaoPo

Mr. LaoPo;

You sound like a very intelligent man on here. Don't get me wrong.

I know Mr. Bout, worked with him in Pakistan, once while he was in United Emmerates, and seen him in Pattaya a few times. Even before his capture by Thai and U.S. government.

Until you get your facts in order, please do a little reading, try to make contact with his wife, go to the prision and ask to speak to Mr. Bout, because you know he is still there in his cell. They both took off back to Russia right after he was released. But, I know you are a very smart man, don't get me wrong.

I have to admit Mr. elshaheen that you make me speechless.

What do you know that we don't ? ....."he was released ?"....WHEN ?

LaoPo

I just noticed you're online Mr. elshaheen...I'm still waiting for your reply about Viktor Bout ?

LaoPo