Nuclear Power Plants

[thunder30101]

I really have to wonder why some of you people on here that constantly disrespect the thais in every way you possibly can and basically call them all corrupt idiots who cant do anything technical stand to live here ??? why are you here, living in a country so full of these kind of people???

[PhilHarries]

Since 1977 actually, a bit of a hair split admittedly.

That's when the current reactor went online, but it was their second one. Their first reactor operated from 1962 to 1975.

Well the info came not only from Wiki but the World Nuclear Association.

Thailand

1 research reactor, + 1 being built.

Interest by Thailand in nuclear power was revived by a forecast growth in electricity demand of 7 per cent per year for the next twenty years. About 70% of electricity is from natural gas. Capacity requirement in 2016 is forecast at 48 GWe.

In June 2007 the Energy Minister announced that it would proceed with plans to build a 4000 MWe nuclear power plant, and has budgeted funds to 2011 for preparatory work. Construction will commence in 2015, to operate from 2020.

Thailand has had an operating research reactor since 1977 and a larger one is under construction.

Source : http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf47.html

Dated Aug 2008.

[Brunus]

I really have to wonder why some of you people on here that constantly disrespect the thais in every way you possibly can and basically call them all corrupt idiots who cant do anything technical stand to live here ??? why are you here, living in a country so full of these kind of people???

And I wonder why some of you people don't read what other people write. Nobody is disrespecting nobody. I love my wife the way she is, but I would be scared if she drove a 800 cc bike. I like Thailand the way it is but if you ask me if in my opinion it's wise for them having a nuclear plant, my answer is no, for the reasons I wrote. You might disagree but you can't accuse me to disrespect Thais. Will they ever have a decent basketball team? No, they are too short!! It's not disrespecting them. It's just the truth.

[LooseCannon]

.....

Loosecannon Have you ever had a house built in Thailand? Have you ever seen a slag hammer to chip off the excess carbon waste from the steel so they can inspect their work. How about welding hoods 150 baht sunglasses.

Hand a framing square to most construction workers & they scratch there heads.

The common sense portion of the lowdown. So if the workmanship is not absolutely perfect you are in an accident waiting to happen ....No. I wouldn't even let my welders do any fabrication on auto frames without 2 years of proof that they can do a structural weld. There is no room for mistakes in building reactors. This isn't a garbage truck that you send back to fix the fractures in the steel. I think you are really making light of a critical situation & are discounting people that are in the oil trade that do in fact do structural work & know the consequences when they fck up. I think I am therefore i can do is good in an old Moody blue tune but lacks weight in reality.

And as guesthouse pointed out Mexico had the same problem with Cobalt 60 when a worker saved the cost of dumping the radioactive waste in a undesignated area that was so unsafe he & his loved ones croaked along with the contamination it causes. I am sorry I just do not see Thailand as a whole( A place where they don't even throw garbage in a can instead in any area started as a dump site would be a responsible candidate for something as dangerous as something Radioactive. With their track record with hazardous waste linked to carcinogenics recently in Rayong , you got to wonder. Even in the U.S. they polluted some of the great lakes & had to spend many years of cleanup. If they were to have a meltdown crisis who would pay for it? The news story would be snuffed just as the reporters that put out the story. Ordinarily I would agree with you on the usual snivel & drivel on TV, but common This is serious stuff your talking about. I don't think I want Somchai the I think I can do man to do an engineers job that was a soup kitchen cook & paid his way for engineering papers.

Besides what is wrong with safe methods of energy. Plenty of sun for solar & lots of wind to harness for electricity.

At least if the turbines croak the most they lose is 50-60 years of power they would have had if they would break & pay the upkeep on the equipment. Baby steps first. Prove they can fix the ailing infrastructure(Especially the railroad ---- Royal garden mall upgrade 300 million baht- the entire fleet of ancient engines & cars in the railroad 100 million baht.) would not buy 2 locomotives new in the U.S. And the bottom line is I am not Thai & I don't think you are so our point of view is totally mute.

But the point of a debate is more than one side. I respect your views & can only hope you can respect others. No one needs to get upset as it is not our problem yet.

For me I like to see action with my own eyes & from the almost 6 years I see Thailand as a technologically challenged country that needs massive education- starting with teaching the kids not to throw trash into the street & burn rubber tires & batteries because it is more convenient than dumping them in the nearest Klong.And it could rightfully be argued that the west is lax in pollution as well, but the government is a hel_l of a lot stronger & for the most part would not accept tea money so the company could save some baht. & I believe having gone through years of trade training you earn your degree & it is not up for negotiation, here ha sip ha sip. And I really do like Thailand. I just do not think they are ready for this big of an upgrade.

I wish it was different, But even in Indonesia if you get caught dumping trash in anything but a trash receptacle you get fined. here the heat discards waste as they tool down the road. So when it comes to nuclear waste I would be a little scared especially if they dropped the ball on me & told me they were going to build the plant next to my property. I wouldn't consider most of the posters as you call it puerile catchphrases when dealing with such a potentially dangerous undertaking. That & most of the workers I see work more than one shift. I want someone with both eyes open & not exhausted from 2 shifts & 2 bottles of Mekong after work.At least with wind turbines the death would be confined to a few. The flooding in the south could be used well in Hydroelectric plants as well.

Not flaming you please don't get pissed!

The point is that it is not a house, a bridge or a car that is being built - it is a nuclear reactor that will be housed in a purpose built structure. The manufacturers of these power plants, companies such as Westinghouse, Areva, Hitachi, GE etc, manufacture & assemble them using their own technicians & engineers. All the less technical work such a pouring concrete etc will be done under strict supervision - they will test the concrete before the pour to check quality because their reputation depends on it.

I haven't been involved in building & commissioning a nuclear power station but I have been involved in a number of large scale industrial installations & the equipment manufactures always send a team of engineers/fitters/electricians to supervise & carry out hands on reassembly of the equipment.

I know that there are many examples of poor workmanship in Thailand but it is not confined to Thailand. I have been a tradesman for over 30 years & I always think that I have seen it all until the next example of incompetence & stupidity.

"Not flaming you please don't get pissed!" - not a chance - I got a skin as thick as a f*cking elephant. No room for cry babies in the places I've worked- they will eat you alive.

[LooseCannon]

Well. thinking as a long term investment, solar panels can cost a lot when you buy them, but after that they give clean energy for free. As somebody else pointed out this is not good for who wants to speculate on energy. I can't really blame Thailand. Almost all countries in the world do the same. In Scandinavia (don't remember which country) there is a city that takes its energy 100 per cent from clean sources. Unfortunately this is the exception. Imagine of in every Thai roof there was a solar panel!!! How much energy in a country with this climate.

If Thais chose to build nuclear plants I would be contrary based on what you call "perceived racial & cultural failing". As I would be if my country decided to have one, for the reasons I and others already explained.

This is a dangerous matter. You can't just say "let's see if they are good enough". I love my wife. But I am scared when she rides a 125 cc motorbike (for many reasons). I would be terrified if she decides to buy a 800 cc bike. This is more or less the same.....

The cost of solar panels at this current point in time is prohibitive for most Thais - this will change in the future.

Your opinion is that Thais are incapable of building & operating a nuclear power plant.

So in light of this you must also be of the opinion that Thais are incapable of performing complex open heart surgery, neurosurgery & microsurgery.

How about operating complex machinery such as an A320 Airbus or the Lockheed Martin F16?

I am pretty sure that Thais carry out all these activities (& many others) on a daily basis.

[Brunus]

Well. thinking as a long term investment, solar panels can cost a lot when you buy them, but after that they give clean energy for free. As somebody else pointed out this is not good for who wants to speculate on energy. I can't really blame Thailand. Almost all countries in the world do the same. In Scandinavia (don't remember which country) there is a city that takes its energy 100 per cent from clean sources. Unfortunately this is the exception. Imagine of in every Thai roof there was a solar panel!!! How much energy in a country with this climate.

If Thais chose to build nuclear plants I would be contrary based on what you call "perceived racial & cultural failing". As I would be if my country decided to have one, for the reasons I and others already explained.

This is a dangerous matter. You can't just say "let's see if they are good enough". I love my wife. But I am scared when she rides a 125 cc motorbike (for many reasons). I would be terrified if she decides to buy a 800 cc bike. This is more or less the same.....

The cost of solar panels at this current point in time is prohibitive for most Thais - this will change in the future.

Your opinion is that Thais are incapable of building & operating a nuclear power plant.

So in light of this you must also be of the opinion that Thais are incapable of performing complex open heart surgery, neurosurgery & microsurgery.

How about operating complex machinery such as an A320 Airbus or the Lockheed Martin F16?

I am pretty sure that Thais carry out all these activities (& many others) on a daily basis.

If you read one of my previous posts you can understand that I wouldn't like my country to have a nuclear plant either. The reasons I have might be questionable but in no way they are racist or implying that Thais are not smart enough (or Italians). I love the mai per rai attitude, like I like the Italian attitude, but I think these are not compatible with managing a nuclear plant.

As for the solar panels I said that it would be necessary a huge investment by the government, but just a few countries invest in clean energy and I can't blame Thailand, even if I think it would be the perfect solution

Edited December 15, 2009 by Brunus

[LooseCannon]

As far as nuclear power goes it is regarded as being very clean with respect to carbon emissions

That's not really true. The extraction and processing of ore is extremely energy intensive, as is the construction of power plants. One estimate says - relative to an average coal fired power station - nuclear power produces between a third - for high-quality to ore - to equal - for low-quality core - emissions of CO2. On top of that, you're bequeathing a terrible legacy to the future; the waste is going to be around for millennia.

You may well be correct - but the point I am trying to make is that solar & other renewable energy sources are not yet viable enough to meet the rapidly increasing energy requirements of Thailand in the coming decade.

So that leaves the choice of increased dependence on natural gas or going nuclear. Both have distinct disadvantages.

[LooseCannon]

....

If you read one of my previous posts you can understand that I wouldn't like my country to have a nuclear plant either. The reasons I have might be questionable but in no way they are racist or implying that Thais are not smart enough (or Italians). I love the mai per rai attitude, like I like the Italian attitude, but I think these are not compatible with managing a nuclear plant.

The Thais can leave the 'mai pen rai' attitude at the door when required, otherwise the surgeon would not be able to operate & the pilot would not be able to fly.

[DP25]

Well the info came not only from Wiki but the World Nuclear Association.

Source : http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf47.html

Dated Aug 2008.

Well, their info is not complete. The first reactor began operations in 1962

Office of Atoms for Peace

http://www.oaep.go.th/english/index_files/Page573.htm

http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/2004...704A0541365.php

[Brunus]

....

If you read one of my previous posts you can understand that I wouldn't like my country to have a nuclear plant either. The reasons I have might be questionable but in no way they are racist or implying that Thais are not smart enough (or Italians). I love the mai per rai attitude, like I like the Italian attitude, but I think these are not compatible with managing a nuclear plant.

The Thais can leave the 'mai pen rai' attitude at the door when required, otherwise the surgeon would not be able to operate & the pilot would not be able to fly.

Thailand is a lot like Italy used to be when I was young. Maybe that's why I like it. Once you deal with surgeons or pilots, who directly respond for their action, people take responsibilities and do the job well. Once they are in a position where the responsibilities are not clear, when a lot of money is invested and bad (but sometimes "respectable") people get involved, things change. I don't know where you come from, but if you were Italian and talk the way you talk, people would think you are naive. Don't want to offend you. Maybe you come from a country where things go the way they should. But believe me. Italy and Thailand are different....

[GuestHouse]

....

If you read one of my previous posts you can understand that I wouldn't like my country to have a nuclear plant either. The reasons I have might be questionable but in no way they are racist or implying that Thais are not smart enough (or Italians). I love the mai per rai attitude, like I like the Italian attitude, but I think these are not compatible with managing a nuclear plant.

The Thais can leave the 'mai pen rai' attitude at the door when required, otherwise the surgeon would not be able to operate & the pilot would not be able to fly.

You perhaps need to look into the background of medical malpractice and air accidents (and the subsequent responses of the authorities dealing with this issues here in Thailand) before you take the stand on those particular examples.

[Gerontion]

But I am scared when she rides a 125 cc motorbike (for many reasons). I would be terrified if she decides to buy a 800 cc bike. This is more or less the same.....

Your wife can't ride a big bike so it follows that Thailand can't run a nuclear power station. How f*cking ridiculous can you get? Perhaps you'd like to shore up your prejudices with a bit of Victorian bigotry about the Asiatic mind being unsuited to science.

You may well be correct - but the point I am trying to make is that solar & other renewable energy sources are not yet viable enough to meet the rapidly increasing energy requirements of Thailand in the coming decade.

Yes, that's probably true (you can see the growth of demand at http://www.indexmundi.com/thailand/electri...onsumption.html - it's fairly shocking) but I'm not sure that nuclear is a solution. I'm very doubtful that there's any strong moral argument for imposing on future generations the kind of troubles which nuclear power generates along with its electricity. I think the only reasonable solution is to attack things from the other end; demand - or at least growth in demand - has to be curtailed. For example, I don't have any figures but cooling must account for a significant share of the load and there's huge room for savings there. How often to you see buildings being built which show any consideration at all of passive cooling techniques? How often is AC run in rooms which have no insulation? It's absolutely inexplicable to me how everyone here builds these vast unshaded concrete heat traps - often surrounded by acres of tarmac and concrete, just to get things really toasty - and then runs AC non-stop in rooms which have single pane glass. Concentrating retail units in shopping malls is, likewise, a foolish misallocation of resources. Secondly - and this is a more general problem - if you're going to have less energy going around, you need to make sure that it's fairly allocated. It's utterly unreasonable to say to some dimly lit upcountry village, sorry pal, you've got to make do with you've got whilst vast temples to mindless over-consumption - like Gaysorn or Emporium - burn through their own power stations and that means wealth redistribution and the dismantling of the nauseating class system under which Thailand labours. Energy problems aren't problems - or aren't wholly - problems which get solved by engineers, they get solved by political action, too.

[Gerontion]

....

If you read one of my previous posts you can understand that I wouldn't like my country to have a nuclear plant either. The reasons I have might be questionable but in no way they are racist or implying that Thais are not smart enough (or Italians). I love the mai per rai attitude, like I like the Italian attitude, but I think these are not compatible with managing a nuclear plant.

The Thais can leave the 'mai pen rai' attitude at the door when required, otherwise the surgeon would not be able to operate & the pilot would not be able to fly.

You perhaps need to look into the background of medical malpractice and air accidents (and the subsequent responses of the authorities dealing with this issues here in Thailand) before you take the stand on those particular examples.

Examples of official incompetence and state indifference to the safety of the nation are hardly restricted to Thailand; I think you'd find plenty of examples of those in nations which have nuclear power at the moment. If that's a reason for not having nuclear power - and I think it is a reason for not having nuclear power - it applies across the board, not just to Thailand.

[submaniac]

This is a silly thread. Really. Without getting into whether or not Thai's can be trusted with nuclear power and all, there is another fact which makes the argument moot. Thailand happens to have one of the largest reserves of natural gas in the world. (The South of Thailand, where all the fighting is? Guess why Thailand will never let that area go.) It's actually cheaper to use natural gas for power than a nuclear power plant.

[Gerontion]

Wikipedia ranks its reserves 39th in the world and "in 2007, Thailand had natural gas production of 25.91 billion cubic metres and consumption of 35.35 billion cubic metres." That doesn't sound too much like a long-term solution.

[GuestHouse]

Loosecannon's price comparrison is interesting for what it omits.

If we move to 'Life Cycle' Cost Analysis, necessary if we are to understand the full ownership costs and impacts of a technology, we need to take into account the mining, processing, use, removal, disposal of the fuel and the similar life costs of the Nuclear Generation Plants.

Loosecannon's prices for alternative technologies are also interesting, as these are rapidly decreasing, the cost last year is not the cost this year.

Put in context of the tens of thousands of years for which the most reactive Nuclear Waste must be securely stored, it is clear we need to consider full ownership costs and real cost changes.

[Brunus]

But I am scared when she rides a 125 cc motorbike (for many reasons). I would be terrified if she decides to buy a 800 cc bike. This is more or less the same.....

Your wife can't ride a big bike so it follows that Thailand can't run a nuclear power station. How f*cking ridiculous can you get? Perhaps you'd like to shore up your prejudices with a bit of Victorian bigotry about the Asiatic mind being unsuited to science.

Still people not reading and just want to attack others. That was just an example to say that if I think Thais shouldn't have a nuclear plant is not because I hate them (as somebody else has said). I also said I wouldn't like my country to have one. But I don't think Italian (or Asiatic) minds are unsuited to science.

[Brunus]

....

If you read one of my previous posts you can understand that I wouldn't like my country to have a nuclear plant either. The reasons I have might be questionable but in no way they are racist or implying that Thais are not smart enough (or Italians). I love the mai per rai attitude, like I like the Italian attitude, but I think these are not compatible with managing a nuclear plant.

The Thais can leave the 'mai pen rai' attitude at the door when required, otherwise the surgeon would not be able to operate & the pilot would not be able to fly.

You perhaps need to look into the background of medical malpractice and air accidents (and the subsequent responses of the authorities dealing with this issues here in Thailand) before you take the stand on those particular examples.

Examples of official incompetence and state indifference to the safety of the nation are hardly restricted to Thailand; I think you'd find plenty of examples of those in nations which have nuclear power at the moment. If that's a reason for not having nuclear power - and I think it is a reason for not having nuclear power - it applies across the board, not just to Thailand.

What you say is true. But here we are discussing about a country that doesn't have nuclear power and wants to build a nuclear plant. You have to admit that examples of official incompetence and state indifference to the safety are more common in Thailand rather than in Germany or Sweden.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Brunus

[PhilHarries]

Let's be straight for the benefits of the Rosies like LooseCannon. Assuming, as correctly said, the power station will be designed and constructed (just hope they have good supervisors) in strict accordance with international standards. We also must assume that it will not be allowed to be commissioned and start up until fully completed and certified (fairly safe as until they get the licence they don't get the fuel - unless they buy it from North Korea or Iran but we won't go down that road).

That just leaves the running of the facility. Assuming it starts off with a high proportion of technical advisors from overseas training the Thai staff there's no need to worry too much about safety. Eventually it gets handed over to an operations staff comprising highly trained Thai nationals who have been thoroughly grounded in the importance of their job and had the mai bpen rai attitude purged from their minds.

All is okay.

However we all know that the head honchos in state organisations like EGAT are political appointees and, as this will be a flagship facility for Thailand, the head man at the plant is also going to be a chum of the current PM. So the government changes a few times and with each new PM comes new top dogs for EGAT and the power station. Each man has no idea of the complexities of running the plant but each man has his own ideas on how it should be organised and the chain of command within the facility. Nothing is more demoralising for a workforce than constant change of faces and procedures so they start getting lacksadaisical (sp?), in other words mai bpen rai creeps in.

Then the PM has a bunch of his chums from another Asian state over for a visit and, of course, he wants to show off his new toy. However when he contacts the plant to arrange the visit he is told "sorry sir we will be shut down that week as part of our statutory inspection and maintenance". But that's not good enough, so he reminds the plant director who got him the job and surely a couple of weeks late inspections aren't going to be the end of the world are they?

So the inspections get delayed and subsequently rushed to ensure the plant is back on line as per plan and something gets missed.

A purely hypothetical situation for sure and only one of many but disasters are seldom the result of one single cause. Usually they come about because of a chain of seemingly unconnected minor events combined with human error.

That's my problem with a nuclear facility in Thailand, not the quality of the Thai people at ground zero.

Then there's the disposal and storage of the medium and high level waste but that's a world wide problem.

Thanks for that DP25, I Google nuclear reactor Thailand and looked at the top few results and when the two were in agreement never looked further.

[Gerontion]

^^ Actually, I had in mind Britain and America - I don't really know enough about the Germany or Sweden to have an informed opinion. I was objecting more to the idea that there's some kind of culturally determined incompetence in running a power station; it's the offensive 'They can't do it because they're Thai' rather than the more sensible 'Governments can't be trusted to look out for the people'. The former is just pretty much straightforward racism, the latter is a reasonable statement which might or might not be true.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Gerontion

[Brunus]

^^ Actually, I had in mind Britain and America - I don't really know enough about the Germany or Sweden to have an informed opinion. I was objecting more to the idea that there's some kind of culturally determined incompetence in running a power station; it's the offensive 'They can't do it because they're Thai' rather than the more sensible 'Governments can't be trusted to look out for the people'. The former is just pretty much straightforward racism, the latter is a reasonable statement which might or might not be true.

Governments reflects somehow the culture of the country they represent. After all people vote for them. In Italy we have about 20 cons in our parliament. Below is the list of names of Italian representatives in the Italian and European Parliaments that have been convicted of a crime:

1. Berruti Massimo Maria (Member of Parliament Forza Italia)
   
2. Biondi Alfredo (Member of Parliament Forza Italia)
   The guilty sentence that was given by the Genoa court to Alfredo Biondi was taken away on 28 September 2001 because the crime was abrogated.
   
3. Bonsignore Vito (Udc - Member of European Parliament)
   
4. Borghezio Mario (Lega Nord - Member of European Parliament)
   
5. Bossi Umberto (Lega Nord - Member of European Parliament)
   
6. Cantoni Giampiero (Member of Parliament Forza Italia)
   
7. Carra Enzo (Member of Parliament Ulivo)
   
8. Cirino Pomicino Paolo (Member of Parliament Democrazia Cristiana - Partito Socialista)
   
9. De Angelis Marcello (Member of Parliament Alleanza Nazionale)
   
10. D'Elia Sergio (Member of Parliament Rosa nel Pugno)
    
11. Dell'Utri Marcello (Member of Parliament Forza Italia)
    
12. Del Pennino Antonio (Member of Parliament Forza Italia)
    
13. De Michelis Gianni (Nuovo Psi - Member of European Parliament)
    
14. Farina Daniele (Member of Parliament Rosa nel PRC)
    
15. Jannuzzi Lino (Member of Parliament Forza Italia)
    
16. La Malfa Giorgio (Member of Parliament mixed group)
    
17. Maroni Roberto (Member of Parliament Lega Nord)
    
18. Mauro Giovanni (Member of Parliament Forza Italia)
    
19. Nania Domenico (An)
    
20. Patriciello Aldo (Member of Parliament Udc)
    
21. Sterpa Egidio (Member of Parliament Forza Italia)
    
22. Tomassini Antonio (Member of Parliament Forza Italia)
    
23. Visco Vincenzo (Member of Parliament Ulivo)
    
24. Vito Alfredo (Member of Parliament Forza Italia)
    

Previti Cesare (FI) This one is no more in the parliament.

Some of them are involved with Mafia. Our prime minister changed the law. Just before being convicted for a crime he abrogated the crime. So he was found guilty but had only to pay a fine and didn't go to jail.

This is the result of our culture. We are not stupid we are good in many things.

The same way corrupted politicians, coups etc. are the result of Thai culture. They are not stupid , they are good in many things.

If we take Italian and Thai politicians to Japan most of them would be forced to commit suicide not to lose face. It's Japanese culture. So I am against nuclear power in general, but if I had to choose I would choose to have a plant in Japan, not in Thailand or Italy.

I personally like Thailand and Italy more than Japan, Germany or Sweden, but please no nuclear plant in Italy and Thailand.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Brunus

[sanook2me]

You can't get decent broadband speeds and now you are debating about nuclear reactors

Tink too mutt...

[LooseCannon]

....

Thailand is a lot like Italy used to be when I was young. Maybe that's why I like it. Once you deal with surgeons or pilots, who directly respond for their action, people take responsibilities and do the job well. Once they are in a position where the responsibilities are not clear, when a lot of money is invested and bad (but sometimes "respectable") people get involved, things change. I don't know where you come from, but if you were Italian and talk the way you talk, people would think you are naive. Don't want to offend you. Maybe you come from a country where things go the way they should. But believe me. Italy and Thailand are different....

I don't want to offend you either but your argument is absurd, it is based on some emotional & vague 'connection' between Thailand & the Italy of your youth.

Equally absurd is the notion that a Thai nuclear engineer or technician would not take responsibility for his/her job & do it well.

I doubt we will reach any common ground as why Thais should not build/operate nuclear power stations as I don't subscribe to your 'mai pen rai' argument. Agree to disagree.

Solar is no magic solution - not yet & will never be able to provide baseload energy (the sun does not shine at night). I suspect that geothermal will be the ultimate energy source of the future (see Iceland). Thailand may benefit from being close to 'the ring of fire'. Enhanced Geothermal Systems (EGS) still experimental but receiving a lot of US government money.

[Credo]

I am a proponent of nuclear energy, but I don't see Thailand as being anywhere near ready to take on such a complex endeavor. First of all, the ones building it and the ones inspecting it will be the same entity--the government. The contracts will go to family and friends of the government in power at the time. And whatever foreign expertise is hired will quickly fall out of favor because they don't 'understand the Thai way.' The xenophobia will set in....why hire foreign engineers and technicians, we have our own. And how will it work when immigration decides not to grant work permits and half the foreign staff is off making visa runs?

I have a feeling we won't need much energy when it's all finished. We'll all be glowing in the dark.

[needforspeed]

....

Thailand is a lot like Italy used to be when I was young. Maybe that's why I like it. Once you deal with surgeons or pilots, who directly respond for their action, people take responsibilities and do the job well. Once they are in a position where the responsibilities are not clear, when a lot of money is invested and bad (but sometimes "respectable") people get involved, things change. I don't know where you come from, but if you were Italian and talk the way you talk, people would think you are naive. Don't want to offend you. Maybe you come from a country where things go the way they should. But believe me. Italy and Thailand are different....

I don't want to offend you either but your argument is absurd, it is based on some emotional & vague 'connection' between Thailand & the Italy of your youth.

Equally absurd is the notion that a Thai nuclear engineer or technician would not take responsibility for his/her job & do it well.

I doubt we will reach any common ground as why Thais should not build/operate nuclear power stations as I don't subscribe to your 'mai pen rai' argument. Agree to disagree.

Solar is no magic solution - not yet & will never be able to provide baseload energy (the sun does not shine at night). I suspect that geothermal will be the ultimate energy source of the future (see Iceland). Thailand may benefit from being close to 'the ring of fire'. Enhanced Geothermal Systems (EGS) still experimental but receiving a lot of US government money.

They shouldn't build one, Why?

Corruption Look what happened with Thai Airway, people got responsibilities they coudnt handle, friends and/or family members from influence people got top management positions without experience or/and knowlege and the company whent almost bankrupt, just by having the wrong people on the wrong positions.(corruption)

a Nuclear power station is a very hazardous environment with the wrong people at the wrong place this could end up not only in a finacial but also a environmental disaster.

[LooseCannon]

.....

You perhaps need to look into the background of medical malpractice and air accidents (and the subsequent responses of the authorities dealing with this issues here in Thailand) before you take the stand on those particular examples.

To start with when I think of medical malpractice the USA springs to mind. Incompetent surgeons exist world wide & unless you have some specific statistics comparing Thai surgical standards to the rest of the world your comments are worthless. Currently rated as unsubstantiated crap.

Air accidents - between 1945 - 2009 there have been 9 commercial aircraft accidents in Thailand resulting in fatalities that can reasonably assumed to have been piloted by Thais (Thai Airways, Bangkok Airways & One-Two-Go). The One-Two-Go was actually captained by an Indonesian, with the 2nd officer being Thai, but as your objective is too paint Thai pilots in as poor a light as possible, I feel obliged to include it. There have of course been other fatal accidents in Thailand but these have been foreign carriers such as Eygpt Air, Lauda Air, Hang Khong Vietnam etc.

Over 60 odd years not a good record, but certainly not bad enough to condemn Thai pilots as implied by your comment. From a third world country slowly moving through 'emerging' status not a bad record at all.

Interestingly during this same period (1945 - 2009) the USAF has had 8 aircraft accidents resulting in fatalities that occurred in Thailand. I doubt that you or any of the other TV cheer squad would have the balls to start a thread questioning the competence & integrity of USAF pilots.

Just in case you are wondering only 1 of these aircraft crashed as a result of damage caused by enemy fire.

On the subject of how the authorities responded to these accidents, the incident that has attracted most attention is the One-Two-Go crash at Phuket. I think that I agree with you (you haven't articulated your position but I am presuming that it is not favourable to the Thais),the whole aftermath was handled disgracefully, shamefully & was downright criminal. That accounts for 1 accident - what about the other 8? Provide some references to any duplicitous, deceptive or illegal behavior by the authorities with regard to these other 8 accidents.

Your post is just another one of the unsubstantiated blanket smears that are so common on TV. Maybe this will give you an answer to your "What is it that some folks find so offensive?....." topic - I don't actually find it offensive - I find these generalized all-encompassing derogatory comments about Thais to be childish, petty, narrow minded,ignorant, revealing & a whole lot more. The "my ex girlfriend & her family fuc_ked me over so all Thais are money grubbing whores" type shit is getting rather old. For fuc_k's sake!

A proud member of the 'Saffron Tinted Spectacle Brigade'

[LooseCannon]

Loosecannon's price comparrison is interesting for what it omits.

If we move to 'Life Cycle' Cost Analysis, necessary if we are to understand the full ownership costs and impacts of a technology, we need to take into account the mining, processing, use, removal, disposal of the fuel and the similar life costs of the Nuclear Generation Plants.

Loosecannon's prices for alternative technologies are also interesting, as these are rapidly decreasing, the cost last year is not the cost this year.

Put in context of the tens of thousands of years for which the most reactive Nuclear Waste must be securely stored, it is clear we need to consider full ownership costs and real cost changes.

Here is the graph .....

As you can see it includes fuel costs, Operation & maintenance, investment. As to whether it includes the cost of waste disposal - I don't know - I am sure it is in a report somewhere.

The point is solar power stations (CSV & centralized PV) are not viable & not practical for Thailand at this point in time due their complexity, high cost & being unproven. Energy planning is long term, you can't plan for something that does not exist.

Of course alternative energy sources are decreasing but that does not make them affordable to Thais now or in the near future. PV panels on domestic rooftops are still out of reach for the majority of Thais.

[needforspeed]

.....

You perhaps need to look into the background of medical malpractice and air accidents (and the subsequent responses of the authorities dealing with this issues here in Thailand) before you take the stand on those particular examples.

To start with when I think of medical malpractice the USA springs to mind. Incompetent surgeons exist world wide & unless you have some specific statistics comparing Thai surgical standards to the rest of the world your comments are worthless. Currently rated as unsubstantiated crap.

Air accidents - between 1945 - 2009 there have been 9 commercial aircraft accidents in Thailand resulting in fatalities that can reasonably assumed to have been piloted by Thais (Thai Airways, Bangkok Airways & One-Two-Go). The One-Two-Go was actually captained by an Indonesian, with the 2nd officer being Thai, but as your objective is too paint Thai pilots in as poor a light as possible, I feel obliged to include it. There have of course been other fatal accidents in Thailand but these have been foreign carriers such as Eygpt Air, Lauda Air, Hang Khong Vietnam etc.

Over 60 odd years not a good record, but certainly not bad enough to condemn Thai pilots as implied by your comment. From a third world country slowly moving through 'emerging' status not a bad record at all.

Interestingly during this same period (1945 - 2009) the USAF has had 8 aircraft accidents resulting in fatalities that occurred in Thailand. I doubt that you or any of the other TV cheer squad would have the balls to start a thread questioning the competence & integrity of USAF pilots.

Just in case you are wondering only 1 of these aircraft crashed as a result of damage caused by enemy fire.

On the subject of how the authorities responded to these accidents, the incident that has attracted most attention is the One-Two-Go crash at Phuket. I think that I agree with you (you haven't articulated your position but I am presuming that it is not favourable to the Thais),the whole aftermath was handled disgracefully, shamefully & was downright criminal. That accounts for 1 accident - what about the other 8? Provide some references to any duplicitous, deceptive or illegal behavior by the authorities with regard to these other 8 accidents.

Your post is just another one of the unsubstantiated blanket smears that are so common on TV. Maybe this will give you an answer to your "What is it that some folks find so offensive?....." topic - I don't actually find it offensive - I find these generalized all-encompassing derogatory comments about Thais to be childish, petty, narrow minded,ignorant, revealing & a whole lot more. The "my ex girlfriend & her family fuc_ked me over so all Thais are money grubbing whores" type shit is getting rather old. For fuc_k's sake!

A proud member of the 'Saffron Tinted Spectacle Brigade'

Incorrect: this been said on TV by the new CEO off Thai Airways, also i not agree about your comment about the accidents resulting in fatalities that occurred in Thailand as there where many small incidents even as problems with the construction off the building and runways at the new Airport.

This incidents didnt resulting in any casulties accept finacialy casulties.

But small problems in construction even as small incidents can result in disaster while runing a nuclear power plant.

I would prefer to let it build and run by a foreign company.

[LooseCannon]

Let's be straight for the benefits of the Rosies like LooseCannon. Assuming, as correctly said, the power station will be designed and constructed (just hope they have good supervisors) in strict accordance with international standards. We also must assume that it will not be allowed to be commissioned and start up until fully completed and certified (fairly safe as until they get the licence they don't get the fuel - unless they buy it from North Korea or Iran but we won't go down that road).

That just leaves the running of the facility. Assuming it starts off with a high proportion of technical advisors from overseas training the Thai staff there's no need to worry too much about safety. Eventually it gets handed over to an operations staff comprising highly trained Thai nationals who have been thoroughly grounded in the importance of their job and had the mai bpen rai attitude purged from their minds.

All is okay.

However we all know that the head honchos in state organisations like EGAT are political appointees and, as this will be a flagship facility for Thailand, the head man at the plant is also going to be a chum of the current PM. So the government changes a few times and with each new PM comes new top dogs for EGAT and the power station. Each man has no idea of the complexities of running the plant but each man has his own ideas on how it should be organised and the chain of command within the facility. Nothing is more demoralising for a workforce than constant change of faces and procedures so they start getting lacksadaisical (sp?), in other words mai bpen rai creeps in.

Then the PM has a bunch of his chums from another Asian state over for a visit and, of course, he wants to show off his new toy. However when he contacts the plant to arrange the visit he is told "sorry sir we will be shut down that week as part of our statutory inspection and maintenance". But that's not good enough, so he reminds the plant director who got him the job and surely a couple of weeks late inspections aren't going to be the end of the world are they?

So the inspections get delayed and subsequently rushed to ensure the plant is back on line as per plan and something gets missed.

A purely hypothetical situation for sure and only one of many but disasters are seldom the result of one single cause. Usually they come about because of a chain of seemingly unconnected minor events combined with human error.

That's my problem with a nuclear facility in Thailand, not the quality of the Thai people at ground zero.

Then there's the disposal and storage of the medium and high level waste but that's a world wide problem.

Thanks for that DP25, I Google nuclear reactor Thailand and looked at the top few results and when the two were in agreement never looked further.

A great story - but that is all its. Don't read it to the kiddies on TV it might scare them.

Dedicated to shooting peas up the noses of the dysfunctional malcontents of Thai visa.

[LooseCannon]

...

Incorrect: this been said on TV by the new CEO off Thai Airways, also i not agree about your comment about the accidents resulting in fatalities that occurred in Thailand as there where many small incidents even as problems with the construction off the building and runways at the new Airport.

This incidents didnt resulting in any casulties accept finacialy casulties.

But small problems in construction even as small incidents can result in disaster while runing a nuclear power plant.

I would prefer to let it build and run by a foreign company.

What is incorrect?

On the Aviation Safety network website there are 25 pages with approx 80 incidents on each page (including fatals & non-fatals) that have occurred in the US in this same time period. - what does that tell about the aviation industry in the US?

Thailand has 1 page.

Try as hard as you like to make blanket condemnations of the Thai pilots but it just is not born out by the facts. Yes there are incompetent Thai pilots & airline managers etc. but making sweeping generalizations about competency & ability is just absurd.