Ed Visa Crackdown

[Brunus]

Are you kidding? All the people I know who use this visa are honest people, tourists, who don't work illegally or do nothing illegal. They are just fed up with visa runs. They have an income that allows them to have a decent life in Thailand without working. Unfortunately they don't meet the requirements requested by the law. Have a look at the requirements. Can somebody with a pension of 1000 euros live in Thailand? Well 50000 bath a month is more than enough for living here. My neighbor has only one leg and because of this has a small pension, but enough to live here. I can't blame him if he is not very happy to do visa runs with his fake legs and prefers to pay for an ed visa.

While I am never a fan of the baying crowd that love to poke at any group being pressured by todays rule change.. It isnt really Thailand job to have one legged poor people visa's. Its up to them to say who can and cannot stay here.

I personally think its very odd, given the TATs non stop work to market Thailand to 'quality tourists' that they dont have a visa class for high net worth / young retirees, but even if they did I could see many reasons why they would want to set a high bar of say a couple of million THB in the bank and even then I bet folks would find reason to complain.

Well, well, well. A Thai citizen who wants to go to Italy as a tourist has to prove he can support himself or herself.

Fixed amount € 206.58, daily amount per person € 27.89. Total for 3 months 2716.68 Euro. If you think for 1 year you do 2716.68X4=10866.72 Euro= about 520000 Baht.

Now a tourists who wants to come to Thailand and avoid visa runs must be over 50 years of age and have 800000 Baht.

Basically in a country where life is 5 times more expansive than Thailand you can come with less money than you can come to Thailand. Is this a nonsense or not?

A nonsense is also saying that somebody who earns 50000 Bath is poor in Thailand. He is poor in Europe, that's why he comes here to enjoy his life. Somebody with this kind of money in Thailand can live well. If u deny this you should go to check up your brain

Of course Thais can do what they want but I can say that this is bizarre. By the way as I said before I have no problems to get a visa to stay here. So far......

Edited December 18, 2009 by Brunus

[Maestro]

Silentnine, did any of the documents you needed to submit contain information about your attendance record at school?

--

Maestro

[alyx]

Are you kidding? All the people I know who use this visa are honest people, tourists, who don't work illegally or do nothing illegal. They are just fed up with visa runs. They have an income that allows them to have a decent life in Thailand without working. Unfortunately they don't meet the requirements requested by the law. Have a look at the requirements. Can somebody with a pension of 1000 euros live in Thailand? Well 50000 bath a month is more than enough for living here. My neighbor has only one leg and because of this has a small pension, but enough to live here. I can't blame him if he is not very happy to do visa runs with his fake legs and prefers to pay for an ed visa.

While I am never a fan of the baying crowd that love to poke at any group being pressured by todays rule change.. It isnt really Thailand job to have one legged poor people visa's. Its up to them to say who can and cannot stay here.

I personally think its very odd, given the TATs non stop work to market Thailand to 'quality tourists' that they dont have a visa class for high net worth / young retirees, but even if they did I could see many reasons why they would want to set a high bar of say a couple of million THB in the bank and even then I bet folks would find reason to complain.

Oooops Have I missed something here???

Nothing to do with the ED visa but I could not help but noticing the last sentence;

LivingLos you have been registered since 2004 (I had to check whether this was a newbie's post) this is why I don't get it when you say that you are surprised "they do not have a visa class"???

They do, they did (whatever)... and they are ashamed of it , to the point that they are trying to auction it and eventually smother it (and folks were not complaining)

Edited December 18, 2009 by alyx

[tropo]

Isn't there another education visa called a Multiple Entry Ed visa? This would not require renewals at the Immigration office but a border run every 3 months.

Where can these be found? This could be a solution for people a bit slow at learning Thai who don't wish to be interrigated by immigration every 3 months.

[eek]

Not 100% sure Tropo, but i believe the multi-entry Ed Visa can only be obtained in home countries..or say places like Perth. Basically, not locally or in neighbouring Asian countries. In that case would probably be easier just to apply for a multi entry non-imm "o".

[monty]

Not 100% sure Tropo, but i believe the multi-entry Ed Visa can only be obtained in home countries..or say places like Perth. Basically, not locally or in neighbouring Asian countries. In that case would probably be easier just to apply for a multi entry non-imm "o".

Correct.

Most local (Asian) embassies and consulates will only issue single entry ED visa's.

In your home country a multiple entry would be no problem whatsoever.

Perth likely as well, but no reports yet of people who obtained one over there.

Perth might likely be just as expensive as flying home though, just found out accommodation ain't exactly cheap over there

And neither are the airfares...

[FarangBuddha]

About time

Here here...should weed out the scammers misusing the Ed. visa to live in LOS w/o actually studying a subject at an approved educational institution.

It would be funny to be a fly on the wall at the language schools when all the bar-flies actually have to try to learn Thai in order to stay in the Kingdom

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Still people are paying good money to Thailand based companies get Education Visa's whether they are learning or not. I doubt this goes too far as it helps Thai education industry. Maybe this shifts the money around from some schools to other schools. It's certainly preferable to keep the money in country as opposed to it going to neighboring countries for visa runs.

Who knows what financial interest or motives are behind this. Perhaps extension fee increases are coming next and they are using the testing as a pretext for higher fees being justified.

[tropo]

Perhaps extension fee increases are coming next and they are using the testing as a pretext for higher fees being justified.

Charging 1,900 baht for a 7 days or 30 day extension on a tourist visa is already way too much. 1,900 baht for a 3 month extension sounds reasonable. If they do increase it, I hope they don't do it across the board.

[lizzy]

I agree 1900-2000 for a 3 month extension is very reasonable.

However, I still can't get my head around why we aren't able to just pay this at immigration and get the new stamp/extension rather than paying a visa run company to take us out of the country.

[cup-O-coffee]

So, its OK for these people with righteous views to have:

A ) Gone to the border at some point in the past, or even now, and let a perfect stranger spirit away your passport (without a POA), and

B ) knowingly let the stranger either walk, drive, or pass on your passport to an immigration official (key word "IMMIGRATION OFFICIAL) who

C ) Never even sees your face, never even interviews you, nor is even interested in your presence and

D ) This visa company guide uses the money you provided, KNOWING that it would be used in this capacity, to slip a back-hander to the immigration official (Note: "this capacity is defined here as the payee NOT wanting to ATTEND a face to face meeting with several immigration authorities in order to speed up the process of getting their coveted stamp - sort of like not wanting to attend a class in order to get an ED stamp, right? The "not wanting to attend" time frame is different, but the motive and intent is the same, right?) Then, the righteous ones will...

E ) Arrive back in Pattaya and go to T.V. and condemn people you do not know about who abuse an ED visa privilege, whereas YOU are the only one who cares.

I do know that it is illegal for an American to hand over their passport to anyone other than a US government official. The exception is when a POA is written up and signed by the person whose name the passport is issued to, and the person being given the POA. This allows for a US passport to be taken to authorities and the pages legally altered with new stamps, etc. Anything less is breaking a law. How about other countries? Same? I do not recall the visa companies asking their customers to sign POA paperwork to supplement an illegal process over at the border.

If you are going to call a kettle black then it is only fair that we all get the same scrutiny.

So, regarding the Soi 5 immigration test for Thai (only Thai? hmmm); has anyone ever been denied an extension there? Not to my knowledge. That should clearly indicate that this is a ruse. Language schools not only teach Thai, but German, Russian, and English, etc. The point is not about the specific language, but rather a curriculum that allows for an ED visa to be issued, be it social science, history, physics, language, etc.

So why are immigration officials happy to take backhanders at the border by everyone who must travel out every 90 days, including the accusers here, yet when these same officials are working in the interior of the country, and actually interacting face to face with a foreigner at an immigration office, they mysteriously select the Thai language as a way to "test" the efficiancy of compliance with the ED visa process?

This B/S about cracking down on the ED visa is misrepresenting the actual truth, and instead obsessing on a Thai language course, as if the Thai language course has some sort of altruistic superiority over all the other curriculum that are offered to obtain an ED visa.

The Thai officer the other day began to grill my native Russian customer in Thai, and he looked absolutely dumbfounded. The officer had a "gotcha" look on her face, until I explained that the person she was testing is studying English, and not Thai. The officer's face immediately went red, and she made a few noises in her throat and stamped the extension and signed it and we were on our way.

You say illegal, I say all-legal. You say toe-may-toe, I say toe-mah-toe, and I am way ahead of a lot of you by admitting I am a black pot. But at least I can be used to cook good soup. I read a lot of these comments and it makes me sad, angry, and full of laughter over the silliness. Believe what you wish, but taking the high road will only make you all the more silly, and condemning anyone while living and being a part of this culture is the pot calling the kettle black, yet refusing to admit one's own blackness.

Edited December 19, 2009 by cup-O-coffee

[TCA]

Interesting thread. As is Tod's thread about a similar occurence at Chaeng Wattana immigration. To me this testing seems a bit daft though. Immigration officers have no idea of the manner of teaching at different schools and are not qualified to test students. And anyway, basic questions (if that's what's being asked), could be answered by anybody and don't prove anything.

Any testing should be done by the schools and the fact that these schools are recognised by the Ministry of Education (and the MofE has to endorse paperwork for every 90 day extension), should be sufficient. The schools could be required to include test results and attendance records in their MofE submission (if not already) and this would surely suffice. Immigration officials could be presented with copies to avoid any stupid testing being carried out by them.

Even if someone is a poor Thai language student but trying their best with good attendance, surely they should not be considered any different from the star pupil sitting next to them? They certainly should not be judged by someone who's not qualified to do so. If I decide to get an ED visa to study Muay Thai boxing, will immigration officers want me to take them outside and beat the crap out of them? Ridiculous.

P.S. I have no objections to the authorities trying to eradicate those flouting the system on ED visas, but this isn't the way to do it.

TCA

[jazzbo]

from Immigration and MFA Thailand websites: The granting of change of type of visa and extension of stay is at the discretion of the immigration officer.

from Dictionary(dot)com -- Discretion: the power or right to decide or act according to one's own judgment; freedom of judgment or choice: (e.g.) It is entirely within my discretion whether I will go or stay.

[Brunus]

If I decide to get an ED visa to study Muay Thai boxing, will immigration officers want me to take them outside and beat the crap out of them?

Actually they have just hired Jean-Claude Van Damme, Steven Seagal and Chuck Norris. Those on an ED visa to study Muay Thai boxing will be tested by those 3.

[TCA]

from Immigration and MFA Thailand websites: The granting of change of type of visa and extension of stay is at the discretion of the immigration officer.

from Dictionary(dot)com -- Discretion: the power or right to decide or act according to one's own judgment; freedom of judgment or choice: (e.g.) It is entirely within my discretion whether I will go or stay.

This is of course true, and as always it can come down to what side of bed an official got out of on a particular morning, but immigration officers have guidelines to follow and rules to apply in addition to using their discretion. Their discretion should surely not include whether they "think" someone is any good at speaking Thai or not. And whether someone is any good, does not necessarily reflect their efforts or attendance. The schools (via the Ministry of Education) are the supposed experts here, so their judgement should be sufficient. In my opinion. Not that it counts for anything.

[jazzbo]

If I were in Thailand on an ED Visa to do Graduate work in Molecular Biology at the Sirindhorn International Institute of Technology I do not think the Immigration Agent would query me on my DNA studies when I would show up for an extension of Visa. However, to so many persons on ED Visas -- and they at Immigration are obviously aware of this -- pursuing language studies is a secondary goal; their primary goal is to obtain a non-Imm Visa whether they are diligent students or not and the language school ads only enforce this perception.

Customs and other Immigration type-officials develop a sixth-sense much as a Geiger counter to determine whether one is at ease or apprehensive in this case about an extension of ED Visa. YOU know whether you are a diligent student or just doing the minimum to get by. Whether you feel that testing for language capability should fairly be the purview of an Immigration agent, it is entirely within their authority as the situation exists TODAY.

[TCA]

If I were in Thailand on an ED Visa to do Graduate work in Molecular Biology at the Sirindhorn International Institute of Technology I do not think the Immigration Agent would query me on my DNA studies when I would show up for an extension of Visa. However, to so many persons on ED Visas -- and they at Immigration are obviously aware of this -- pursuing language studies is a secondary goal; their primary goal is to obtain a non-Imm Visa whether they are diligent students or not and the language school ads only enforce this perception.

Customs and other Immigration type-officials develop a sixth-sense much as a Geiger counter to determine whether one is at ease or apprehensive in this case about an extension of ED Visa. YOU know whether you are a diligent student or just doing the minimum to get by. Whether you feel that testing for language capability should fairly be the purview of an Immigration agent, it is entirely within their authority as the situation exists TODAY.

I agree 100% jazzbo. Immigration officials can pretty much do what they want. It is just my opinion that their "sixth-sense" and testing of Thai language will not necessarily catch out those who are playing the system. I suspect that the language schools don't undergo much scrutiny and in an ideal world they would be the student control factor that immigration officials could rely on and so forego the need for mindless testing.

[punkonater]

just a thought now... Maybe instead of cracking down on the students... they should just have better inspections of these language schools. For example, if a school were found to be giving false attendance reports and writing students' exams for them... then the MOE should just revoke their license as an educational institution.

But of course, that would take more work... And we all know how much shortcuts are loved here.

*sigh*

[cup-O-coffee]

from Immigration and MFA Thailand websites: The granting of change of type of visa and extension of stay is at the discretion of the immigration officer.

from Dictionary(dot)com -- Discretion: the power or right to decide or act according to one's own judgment; freedom of judgment or choice: (e.g.) It is entirely within my discretion whether I will go or stay.

An ED Visa Extension: To Test or Not To Test: The Spiritos of the Law, or One's Own Spiritos

At face value, that is a very broad brush with which to paint with. The determining factors that revolve around this must also be given due diligence, such as what influences, persuades, or convinces an individual in reach their act of discretion. Who or what are they thinking about, at the end of the day, when they make that decision? Can anyone say "me"? This seems very much to be a "me" society. These factors are not being discussed here, yet they exist and are the contributing factors to practically every issue discussed, and are part and parcel to any culture.

Also, the "freedon of judgment or choice" more than likely means "the parameters set forth in the law, in which the officer must act as a representative of that law, and duly enforce that law, by freely judging or choosing any options provided they do so within the context and spirit that brought about that law". The officer is not a law unto his or her self. Ironically, I do not see the greater good for all being enforced when I peel back the layers and get a glimpse within. I usually see "me" mattering more than anything else. In my opinion, the "Spiritos", or inspiration of the laws seem to be questionable at best, if not lost entirely.

Understanding the ED "Crackdown"

Still, what is is, and that is the way it is. Love it and the people, or leave it. If they are not fighting it, then what right has a foreigner to fight it? By living here and going along with these processes, we are, in a sense, condoning our own interpretations of corruption. We are guilty by living in and associating with a society that our discretion causes us to freely choose to remain in. We go against our own convictions as a whole. It seems it would be more difficult being truthful and honest and legal in this land (according to our own spiritos) than it would be to simply comply and go with the flow. That seems to be too much for some foreigners to digest: The cock-eyed views of these individuals, who can often be heard bitterly implying that their own native countries have betrayed them by giving far too many rights to legal and illegal immigrants within their native countries. With that in mind, they come here and condone ethics and morals when it suits their needs, and bicker about making things right, or punishing those who thread the needles in the system as long as it is removed from exposing their own darkness. Silly!

[OxfordWill]

then they CANNOT deny you an ED visa extension without treading on international human rights that protect you from discrimination, racism, etc.

Please, don't try this approach! Better just to say youre sorry and youll learn harder. Nothing you said is technically wrong, but it doesnt quite work like this for everyone.

[cup-O-coffee]

then they CANNOT deny you an ED visa extension without treading on international human rights that protect you from discrimination, racism, etc.

Please, don't try this approach! Better just to say youre sorry and youll learn harder. Nothing you said is technically wrong, but it doesnt quite work like this for everyone.

Yes, thank you. You are absolutely correct and I agree that this is certainly one approach that will deliver more success than failure. The view above is simply a personal expression that one should not lose their personal views towards a higher level of conscience, even though they live in an intoxicating environment that might corrode those views.

[spongeman]

then they CANNOT deny you an ED visa extension without treading on international human rights that protect you from discrimination, racism, etc.

Please, don't try this approach! Better just to say youre sorry and youll learn harder. Nothing you said is technically wrong, but it doesnt quite work like this for everyone.

You are right there my friend. Immigration would just laugh in your face.

[jazzbo]

The officer is not a law unto his or her self. The way the law is written, once they put on their Police uniform and sit down at their desk in the Immigration office, in that the Immigration Department has thus bestowed upon them the Department's inherent authority, they pretty much are.

OR (Hey, it's Saturday) as Shel Silverstein wrote with the accompanying illustration of Pooh sitting wearing a bib with two empty shoes on the ground:

“Christopher Robin, Christopher Shmobbin!

“A bear has got to EAT!”

[Parvis]

"just a thought now... Maybe instead of cracking down on the students... they should just have better inspections of these language schools. For example, if a school were found to be giving false attendance reports and writing students' exams for them... then the MOE should just revoke their license as an educational institution."

[KayT]

They have been systematically closing all loopholes that allow foreigners to live here other than on a non-imm visa with WP, retirement visa, marriage visa or PR. So this is not a surprise. They are no doubt capable of using google to find all the ads offering ED visas for those who enroll in Thai language schools. The government view seems, rightly or wrongly, that long term residents below retirement age must be working without WPs and evading tax, so they don't want them here. Western countries would also not allow mature students to stay on ED visas for many years without getting degrees or diplomas from recognized institutions other than language schools. Perhaps they will limit ED visas for study at Thai language schools to, say, two years. Two years' full time study should be enough to achieve fluency in spoken and written Thai and enable serious students to go on to do a degree in Thai.

Yes two years full time study is possibly enough to gain fluency and be able to live here quite easily with Thai language skills.I guess it also depends upon the school and the method that is being taught.Currently the school I am attending has a questionable level of language.My Thai friends who have read my text have stated they do not use such grammar nor sentence structure and if you were to talk like that in regular conversation you would have people lying in the street laughing.I guess it depends on the school.As a conscientious student I attend my lessons and can now read and speak easily as well as write some but that was only because I studied outside and not from what I learnt in my classroom.Maybe if the departments who control this visa were serious about making it a legitimate thing they would make sure the school was offering a program that would allow a student to gain proficiency?

[Spoonman]

What school do you attend KayT.

[wryeyes]

Here's how it will play out for eager students:

IO: "Please speak to me in Thai"

ED: <speaks fluent Thai which has been acquired and practised over several years>

IO: "Well, your Thai is very good so there's no need to study anymore. Please make sure you leave before the expiry of your current visa."

So take the middle road when being tested

Like failing a Back To Work job interview when on the dole in the UK. If they see you're not trying you lose your benefit; if you're too good you get the job.

[cup-O-coffee]

Well, I do not suppose that anyone here can cite a case where an extension was actually rejected due to one of these pop-quizes? Any takers? I have not ever heard of this being the case. Is it not a bit silly to get ones pants in a twist about something that has yet to happen; that is, unless someone can be specific about this ever happening?

[siggie2]

As 1 poster suggested,maybe the immigration are checking the younger breed here in Pattaya.I can never understand how so mnay young people are actualy living in Pattaya unless they robbed a bank.Would be interesting to here from this young brigade on how they live here and where they earn their money.Noticed more holiday makers that are young and big mongers too,so why dont they go to Spain/Portugal/Greece/Turkey,are you lot getting lazy too lol.

[taichiplanet]

I agree it is the schools that need to be regulated; if they do the job properly then there is no problem. It would be actually a lot less work to check the schools than to check every student. For an example of how the system should not be run, take a look at what is happening with international students and private schools in Sydney,

I went to the Jomtien office to extend my ED visa the day before this incident silentnine had and had no problems. Though I must say the officers involved were not their usual cordial selves; there did seem a dark mood in the whole office, or maybe they were all just suffering from sheer boredom. :-)

The school I go to is good and a few of my class mates have picked up basic conversation quickly, while I struggle to remember the words (sa-moong mai dee - my brain's no good!). Even though I turn up for every class I struggle, the fault is mine as I don't consistently study out of class, and I tend to like to learn to read the Thai characters rather than to remember words. But what is expected from 4 hours a lesson a week?! It would be nice (555) if there was some indication of what your Thai ability should be after one year, so that we have something to work towards.

Edited December 20, 2009 by taichiplanet