Mixed Views On Abhisit's First Year In Office

[jayboy]

In a nutshell

Apisit- Thai people, please give me more time to show I and the Democrats can run the country well, we've implemented farming, educational and anti-loan shark policies the first year, now we want land tax reform and a farmers council. We know we sneaked into power in a dodgy way but our achievements will nullify all that.

Thaksin- No, you're doing a good job and must be stopped now. No.no, no I'll rephrase that.

I mean you must be stopped because you did not come directly from an election, it's not true democracy, god bless her soul.

I actually agree with your nutshell summary.None of that alters the fact however that Abhisit needs in the reasonably near future to renew his legitimacy through fair elections.I don't think it's helpful to set deadlines and it's basically Abhisit's call but I would have thought within a year or so.It goes without saying the elections must be transparent both in terms of politicians actions and the military keeping their noses out of it.

[hammered]

In a nutshell

Apisit- Thai people, please give me more time to show I and the Democrats can run the country well, we've implemented farming, educational and anti-loan shark policies the first year, now we want land tax reform and a farmers council. We know we sneaked into power in a dodgy way but our achievements will nullify all that.

Thaksin- No, you're doing a good job and must be stopped now. No.no, no I'll rephrase that.

I mean you must be stopped because you did not come directly from an election, it's not true democracy, god bless her soul.

I actually agree with your nutshell summary.None of that alters the fact however that Abhisit needs in the reasonably near future to renew his legitimacy through fair elections.I don't think it's helpful to set deadlines and it's basically Abhisit's call but I would have thought within a year or so.It goes without saying the elections must be transparent both in terms of politicians actions and the military keeping their noses out of it.

Too many imponderables for election date but I would guess the Dems aim at early 2011.

For a free and fair election we also need parites to be able to campaign in every province without threat, violence or intimidation against them which means the red and yellow gangs need to stay home and watch their boring self-masturbatory TV channels. The chance of the next election actually being free and fair is negligible imho and there will be plenty of intimidation from all kinds of groups.

[Davidusaf99]

The reds don't want free and fair elections, lol. They want 'same same' elections. Regardless of the fact that the past two elections have resulted in their party (TRT and then PPP) getting dissolved for election fraud (its really just semantics, right?)

[jayboy]

The reds don't want free and fair elections, lol. They want 'same same' elections. Regardless of the fact that the past two elections have resulted in their party (TRT and then PPP) getting dissolved for election fraud (its really just semantics, right?)

The answer's the same.Free elections need to be held and the judgement of the Thai people respected.

[LaoPo]

The reds don't want free and fair elections, lol. They want 'same same' elections. Regardless of the fact that the past two elections have resulted in their party (TRT and then PPP) getting dissolved for election fraud (its really just semantics, right?)

The answer's the same.Free elections need to be held and the judgement of the Thai people respected.

I second that.

LaoPo

[animatic]

Too bad free elections have never been held in Thailand in it's history.

[Old Man River]

In a nutshell

Apisit- Thai people, please give me more time to show I and the Democrats can run the country well, we've implemented farming, educational and anti-loan shark policies the first year, now we want land tax reform and a farmers council. We know we sneaked into power in a dodgy way but our achievements will nullify all that.

Thaksin- No, you're doing a good job and must be stopped now. No.no, no I'll rephrase that.

I mean you must be stopped because you did not come directly from an election, it's not true democracy, god bless her soul.

I actually agree with your nutshell summary.None of that alters the fact however that Abhisit needs in the reasonably near future to renew his legitimacy through fair elections.I don't think it's helpful to set deadlines and it's basically Abhisit's call but I would have thought within a year or so.It goes without saying the elections must be transparent both in terms of politicians actions and the military keeping their noses out of it.

Jayboy, none of this is possible. Elections won't be transparent to the extent they can be held without transparency and the military will be involved. Wassana had a good article (as she normally does) in today's BP about the military's involvement and what we can expect this year. It's not going to be pretty.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Old Man River

[jayboy]

In a nutshell

Apisit- Thai people, please give me more time to show I and the Democrats can run the country well, we've implemented farming, educational and anti-loan shark policies the first year, now we want land tax reform and a farmers council. We know we sneaked into power in a dodgy way but our achievements will nullify all that.

Thaksin- No, you're doing a good job and must be stopped now. No.no, no I'll rephrase that.

I mean you must be stopped because you did not come directly from an election, it's not true democracy, god bless her soul.

I actually agree with your nutshell summary.None of that alters the fact however that Abhisit needs in the reasonably near future to renew his legitimacy through fair elections.I don't think it's helpful to set deadlines and it's basically Abhisit's call but I would have thought within a year or so.It goes without saying the elections must be transparent both in terms of politicians actions and the military keeping their noses out of it.

Jayboy, none of this is possible. Elections won't be transparent to the extent they can be held without transparency and the military will be involved. Wassana had a good article (as she normally does) in today's BP about the military's involvement and what we can expect this year. It's not going to be pretty.

I fear you are right.I suspect also with the rise of China and its successful non-democratic political model the attachment to democracy among those that matter in Thailand is often very fragile.

[jayboy]

Too bad free elections have never been held in Thailand in it's history.

You say that but it is with respect a rather ignorant remark. Of course there have always been abuses, but there have been several occasions when independent observers have confirmed the election outcome was a fair one and reflected the popular will.

[animatic]

Too bad free elections have never been held in Thailand in it's history.

You say that but it is with respect a rather ignorant remark. Of course there have always been abuses, but there have been several occasions when independent observers have confirmed the election outcome was a fair one and reflected the popular will.

If so, when, it's not commonly known. Would Phongpaichit and Baker agree?

Edited January 7, 2010 by animatic

[Thai at Heart]

Too bad free elections have never been held in Thailand in it's history.

You say that but it is with respect a rather ignorant remark. Of course there have always been abuses, but there have been several occasions when independent observers have confirmed the election outcome was a fair one and reflected the popular will.

If so, when, it's not commonly known. Would Phongpaichit and Baker agree?

Lets have an election and allow the law to work out whether it was free and fair afterwards. Worrying that the process might be corrupted is hardly a reason not to bother to have one. I am sick and tired of Abhisit having to manage his way around knowing that he doesn't have the legitimacy of an election victory behind him.

We can all sit around and listen to the idea it's legal bla bla bla, but it's a bit like when someone wins the gold at the olympics because the 3 favourites all trip over each other. All very quaint, but not really a legitimate win.

Do you believe that Abhisit is performing to the best of his abilities with this mess of a coalition?

[LaoPo]

Do you believe that Abhisit is performing to the best of his abilities with this mess of a coalition?

Without delivering comments on Abhisit....the next possible coalition could be even more messy; we just have to sit and wait.

Free elections, now that would be the day, wouldn't it....bringing some coalition.....?

LaoPo

[Thai at Heart]

Do you believe that Abhisit is performing to the best of his abilities with this mess of a coalition?

Without delivering comments on Abhisit....the next possible coalition could be even more messy; we just have to sit and wait.

Free elections, now that would be the day, wouldn't it....bringing some coalition.....?

LaoPo

I was joking relative with a relative of my missus who is part of the election commission near Korat, that we were worried he had done something wrong and been transferred to an inactive post.

I have little doubt that the next election will deliver a coalition. At least it will be born in something approaching wedlock instead of in a newspaper behind the bins. Then again TIT.

Any election will do, free and fair all the better.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Thai at Heart

[LaoPo]

Do you believe that Abhisit is performing to the best of his abilities with this mess of a coalition?

Without delivering comments on Abhisit....the next possible coalition could be even more messy; we just have to sit and wait.

Free elections, now that would be the day, wouldn't it....bringing some coalition.....?

LaoPo

I was joking relative with a relative of my missus who is part of the election commission near Korat, that we were worried he had done something wrong and been transferred to an inactive post.

I have little doubt that the next election will deliver a coalition. At least it will be born in something approaching wedlock instead of in a newspaper behind the bins. Then again TIT.

Any election will do, free and fair all the better.

Let's hope so.

LaoPo

[jayboy]

Too bad free elections have never been held in Thailand in it's history.

You say that but it is with respect a rather ignorant remark. Of course there have always been abuses, but there have been several occasions when independent observers have confirmed the election outcome was a fair one and reflected the popular will.

If so, when, it's not commonly known. Would Phongpaichit and Baker agree?

Not known by you perhaps.Read the history yourself:it might answer other questions that apparently baffle you.

[Thai at Heart]

I fear you are right.I suspect also with the rise of China and its successful non-democratic political model the attachment to democracy among those that matter in Thailand is often very fragile.

China has a successful economic model that is allowing the non-democratic political model to survive. That said, the political system in China is constantly undergoing more and more reform bit by bit.

It has no common traits to the situation historically or currently in Thailand. In fact, those that "matter" in Thailand probably wouldn't be allowed the positions they have under the Chinese system.

[jayboy]

I fear you are right.I suspect also with the rise of China and its successful non-democratic political model the attachment to democracy among those that matter in Thailand is often very fragile.

China has a successful economic model that is allowing the non-democratic political model to survive. That said, the political system in China is constantly undergoing more and more reform bit by bit.

It has no common traits to the situation historically or currently in Thailand. In fact, those that "matter" in Thailand probably wouldn't be allowed the positions they have under the Chinese system.

While I agree there are few common traits the enemies of democracy in Thailand take comfort from China's success (and the weaknesses of the West).It means that democracy can be regarded as an imported value that needs to be "reshaped" for local needs or even as an irrelevant shibboleth.

[Thai at Heart]

I fear you are right.I suspect also with the rise of China and its successful non-democratic political model the attachment to democracy among those that matter in Thailand is often very fragile.

China has a successful economic model that is allowing the non-democratic political model to survive. That said, the political system in China is constantly undergoing more and more reform bit by bit.

It has no common traits to the situation historically or currently in Thailand. In fact, those that "matter" in Thailand probably wouldn't be allowed the positions they have under the Chinese system.

While I agree there are few common traits the enemies of democracy in Thailand take comfort from China's success (and the weaknesses of the West).It means that democracy can be regarded as an imported value that needs to be "reshaped" for local needs or even as an irrelevant shibboleth.

I can see how from the outside looking in, someone could say, "Well look, China has no democracy and look how they are doing!". I can't say I have heard anyone of the "elite" of Thailand hold anyone up as a model except themselves let alone China. Sondhi had a worrying moment for a while, but I think he has since worked out which side his bread is buttered. I don't include him in anything approaching the "elite". He had a few magazines and some cash. Hiso (yuck, yuck yuck) wannabee That doesn't make him any more elite than Thaksin and look how far Thaksin has fallen.

I sincerely hope to god that the Thai powers that be are a little smarter and more sophisticated than that. I never believed that Thaksin would undertake his long march from Isaan to Bangkok and I presume that the so-called "elite" don't want to end up like the Guomintang.

China is a unique proposition and to hold them up as a model of what can be achieved belies the low point from which they have started.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Thai at Heart

[Publicus]

Abhisit is fine to keep the ship run for a year, the job is not easy. But it is more that we are left adrifted in the storm than getting closer to a safe haven. He seems lax practical know how at the helm, maybe he has been pushed up too early for the task.

These people behind him, Old hands of Democrat, Bhumjai Thai Party, PAD New Politics Party, and those from elite societies are breaking him into the position like a cowboy do a green horse. So, he will be ever under their influence. Obviously, he is struggling to be free, out-smarting them. This very reason is behind his childish stubborness reflects in on line lottery faltering, Cambodian diplomatic war, unsettle police chief appointment, and cabinet reshuffle. I wonder if he would ever success.

I hope he survive, until the next election, when the wind changes. Next time around he will be a better man for the post.

Abhisit with his upbringing in the Democrat Party elite and his Oxbridge schooling is personally and individually a sharp and impressive person, a new generation of intellect that leaves the likes of the long line of the 'personality' PMs such as a Chavalit or a Prem among the dinosaurs.

While Abisit's security team has kept his government from being toppled, his domestic team has been conducting the business of government and despite the inevitable cabinet shuffles will continue to tend to the country's needs as much as possible (never of course forgetting their own needs) during the time the coalition government has to try to win over the electorate. A government is in a position to deliver, must deliver something, and is doing so in ways that have been pointed out in some posts.

Abhisit has made it thus far because there's a lot of muscle behind him as there must necessarily needs be, given the bull's eye painted on his government's back by we know who and why. Abhisit needs and is getting the requisite time to establish himself among the electorate as a kid who can govern providing he gets the conditions of a reasonable stability any government needs.

If Abhisit can get past the fugitive's best efforts, to the point of an election, the grannies might bring their families along with them.

You dont really believe all this do you?

Seems a lot of personal unsubstantiated and unsourced comments.

Of course I don't believe what I wrote! 

And, once again you are right - they're  personal, unsubstantiated and unsourced comments.

[Maestro]

Quoting when replying

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[Maestro]

Quoting when replying

Please quote only the part of a post to which you are replying, not complete lengthy posts or even multiple nested posts. From the Forum Netiquette:

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Maestro

[Publicus]

I fear you are right.I suspect also with the rise of China and its successful non-democratic political model the attachment to democracy among those that matter in Thailand is often very fragile.

China has a successful economic model that is allowing the non-democratic political model to survive. That said, the political system in China is constantly undergoing more and more reform bit by bit.

It has no common traits to the situation historically or currently in Thailand. In fact, those that "matter" in Thailand probably wouldn't be allowed the positions they have under the Chinese system.

While I agree there are few common traits the enemies of democracy in Thailand take comfort from China's success (and the weaknesses of the West).It means that democracy can be regarded as an imported value that needs to be "reshaped" for local needs or even as an irrelevant shibboleth.

I can see how from the outside looking in, someone could say, "Well look, China has no democracy and look how they are doing!". I can't say I have heard anyone of the "elite" of Thailand hold anyone up as a model except themselves let alone China. Sondhi had a worrying moment for a while, but I think he has since worked out which side his bread is buttered. I don't include him in anything approaching the "elite". He had a few magazines and some cash. Hiso (yuck, yuck yuck) wannabee That doesn't make him any more elite than Thaksin and look how far Thaksin has fallen.

I sincerely hope to god that the Thai powers that be are a little smarter and more sophisticated than that. I never believed that Thaksin would undertake his long march from Isaan to Bangkok and I presume that the so-called "elite" don't want to end up like the Guomintang.

China is a unique proposition and to hold them up as a model of what can be achieved belies the low point from which they have started.

The People's Republic of China is a model to no one.

It's skewed population of now 1.5 bn makes it a meaningless model of economic development to even the poorest countries. For the same reasons, so too is India no one's model of development. The PRC would serve as a model only to the worst dictators and tyrants who want the greatest control possible over their populations and the minds of their populations.

Both the PRC and India are struggling mightily simply to provide basic infrastructure and services to the massive numbers of people who are seeking to participate in modern economic development and growth. India and the PRC are struggling only to establish some reasonable Standard of Living, with Quality of Life issues remaining well into the future, if QoL issues ever are to be attained to any extent. 

Thais do not look to either the PRC or India as any kind of development model, especially with 800,000,000 Chinese still living on less than USD $2 per day and 700,000,000 Indians doing the same. The problems of Thailand are only magnified in the PRC and in India - an increasing number of the population experiencing some economic gains in certain developing metro centers while the rural countryside remains at best a problematic segment of the population. To say 'problematic' is to be kind. 

Neither Thaksin nor Abhisit can resolve such problems, but Thailand is better positioned to devise some effective measures because its population is of a realistic and workable number. Unlike the PRC or India, Thailand over time and sincere effort can raise the Standard of Living of its general population, even if most do not get far towards Quality of Life issues and concerns. 

[Dustybin]

Very much a "fill yer boots " year from a corrupt, unelected government,

[animatic]

A boiler-plate, blanket statement, that doesn't even consider that several

Dems have been sent packing by their own party for corruption.

And coalition partner members getting the axe in spite of protests

or attempts at re-shuffle deals.

This was unheard of in the Thaksin years, he protected his assets regardless of their

crimes and misdemeanors. Hanging onto the job and it's perks until other forces forced them out.

A completely opposite way of doing things.

[Dustybin]

I don't know about you lot but Abisits government reminds me of John Majors government.....absolutely useless, with a lot less corruption around Major's.

And Abisit reminds me of John Major.

I can just visualise abisit sitting at home eating his peas, looking across at his missus, pushing his peas around his plate with his fork, and thinking what he could be up to with the "egg woman".

Both silly mid-offs.

[LaoPo]

The People's Republic of China is a model to no one.

It's skewed population of now 1.5 bn makes it a meaningless model of economic development to even the poorest countries. For the same reasons, so too is India no one's model of development. The PRC would serve as a model only to the worst dictators and tyrants who want the greatest control possible over their populations and the minds of their populations.

Both the PRC and India are struggling mightily simply to provide basic infrastructure and services to the massive numbers of people who are seeking to participate in modern economic development and growth. India and the PRC are struggling only to establish some reasonable Standard of Living, with Quality of Life issues remaining well into the future, if QoL issues ever are to be attained to any extent. 

Thais do not look to either the PRC or India as any kind of development model, especially with 800,000,000 Chinese still living on less than USD $2 per day and 700,000,000 Indians doing the same. The problems of Thailand are only magnified in the PRC and in India - an increasing number of the population experiencing some economic gains in certain developing metro centers while the rural countryside remains at best a problematic segment of the population. To say 'problematic' is to be kind. 

Neither Thaksin nor Abhisit can resolve such problems, but Thailand is better positioned to devise some effective measures because its population is of a realistic and workable number. Unlike the PRC or India, Thailand over time and sincere effort can raise the Standard of Living of its general population, even if most do not get far towards Quality of Life issues and concerns. 

You certainly have a talent for exaggerating Publicus, I have to admit.

You throw around an extra 150 Million people in China as if you're counting your own money. That's almost the population of 2 x Germany and 2,3 times Thailand's population

I'm not denying that China doesn't have a large population of, latest numbers: 1,338B or maybe even 1.350B but you seem to forget that people do die in China also.

Next, WHERE did you get the info from that there are 800 million people living below the poverty line in China?

Please elaborate about the sources you get this info from.

You're talking about more people than the entire greater Europe with it's 750 million people, and such a number is living below the poverty line?

Here they speak (and they're even self-criticizing, how about that?) about 150 million below poverty line and that's 150 million too many, absolutely!

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-12...ent_9239381.htm

But, I know, you will say that Chinese sources are not reliable so I searched for some ""out of China News":

"Even China has a per capita income of only $3,000 and as many as 150 million Chinese live below the poverty line."

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Basic-instin...le1-489846.aspx

and, from your own CIA:

CHINA: Population below poverty line:

8% (is 108 million: LP)

Those figures are bitter shame but we have to realize that hundreds of millions came OUT of poverty already since 10-20 years..thanks to your so called "...meaningless model of economic development to even the poorest countries" China has.

In comparison:

USA: Population below poverty line:

12% (2004 est.)...I say nothing.

THAILAND: Population below poverty line:

10% (2004 est.)

BRAZIL: Population below poverty line:

31% (2005)

RUSSIA: Population below poverty line:

15.8% (November 2007)

INDIA: Population below poverty line:

25% (2007 est.)

So, in fact, China of the 4 BRIC countries is doing better than the others.

Thus, their economic model isn't that bad, is it? You are a teacher so please study your facts first before you publish them or inform your students or audience on TV because you're far off the truth.

LaoPo

[animatic]

So you figure the CIA is now a fountain of public accuracy.

Baiting post for sure.

I doubt if he will bite.

[way2muchcoffee]

I don't know about you lot but Abisits government reminds me of John Majors government.....absolutely useless, with a lot less corruption around Major's.

And Abisit reminds me of John Major.

I can just visualise abisit sitting at home eating his peas, looking across at his missus, pushing his peas around his plate with his fork, and thinking what he could be up to with the "egg woman".

Both silly mid-offs.

What do John Major and his mushy peas have to do with Thailand? What is your agenda?

Edited January 16, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Dustybin]

Would you say that abisit is the song and dance frontman of the most corrupt dem government never to be elected.

[LaoPo]

So you figure the CIA is now a fountain of public accuracy.

Baiting post for sure.

I doubt if he will bite.

I didn't say that, just published what they publish. There's NO WAY anybody could check upon the truth, whether CIA figures or not. But I agree: it wouldn't be the first time we were "fooled".

Secondly, I come with -published- numbers; your friend doesn't; he publishes his own.

Thirdly: no baiting intended; it's all in the eyes of the beholder dear Animatic.

LaoPo