Israel's 'law Of Return' Citizenship

[DegenFarang]

For various reasons I'd really like to get a second passport. In researching methods I came across the following Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

It states that:

The Law of Return declares that Israel constitutes a home not only for the inhabitants of the State, but also for all members of the Jewish people everywhere—be they living in poverty and fear of persecution or in affluence and safety.

It is also stated there and various other places that one does not need to be born a 'Jew' to qualify - they can convert to Judaism, and then claim Israeli citizenship.

Does anybody know if in practice it is that easy? Know anybody who has gone through the process?

Also how valuable is an Israeli passport compared to an American passport in terms of freedom of travel? Do most countries accept Israeli's or is it somewhat akin to a Thai passport, or somewhere in between?

Thanks for any thoughts or knowledge on this.

[shepsel]

To convert into the Jewish faith is a serious commitment-- not for getting a second passport. Rather than getting into all the philosophy and lectures that encompass this subject, I will answer your question simply. To convert as a reform Jew is much less strenuous than being converted by a Conservative or Orthodox Rabbi. It is quite a lengthly process, and if you contact a Reform Rabbi he would be able to give you a much more sophisticated and reliable answer than I could attempt to give. BTW there are no reform rabbis in Thailand and as far as I know only Chabad exists here which is an extremely religious branch of Jewry.

[Jingthing]

I think it would be rather hard to qualify this way. The easiest way is if you can prove you have a Jewish mother, as the religion is matrilineal. Israel is NOT interested in issuing second passports for the sake of issuing second passports. If they were, Takki Shinegra would probably have gone for it. They want real people to settle there and require you to learn Hebrew and really commit to becoming Israeli, etc. I am over 50 and out of curiosity I looked into this situation, whether if I wanted to it would be easy to become Israeli. I concluded that even though I technically qualify based on the mother, they really are not interested in me, as a single older man with no close Israeli relatives. (I don't blame them.) Actually I have a number of Israeli relatives but they are the more right wing kind, and they scare me. They have many programs for immigrants and they are mostly targeted towards young families with children. I concluded that maybe I could push them to take me if I wanted that, but I wouldn't be welcome, and it would be a miserable life with no support systems. BTW, I wasn't really interested in going there, just curious whether the law of return was really real, or not.

[Larry]

Just to set the matter straight, anyone with at least one Jewish grandparent qualifies to be a citizen under the law of return. You do not have to actually be Jewish. However, you do have to move to Israel and stay at least a reasonable time.

[DegenFarang]

I think it would be rather hard to qualify this way. The easiest way is if you can prove you have a Jewish mother, as the religion is matrilineal. Israel is NOT interested in issuing second passports for the sake of issuing second passports. If they were, Takki Shinegra would probably have gone for it. They want real people to settle there and require you to learn Hebrew and really commit to becoming Israeli, etc. I am over 50 and out of curiosity I looked into this situation, whether if I wanted to it would be easy to become Israeli. I concluded that even though I technically qualify based on the mother, they really are not interested in me, as a single older man with no close Israeli relatives. (I don't blame them.) Actually I have a number of Israeli relatives but they are the more right wing kind, and they scare me. They have many programs for immigrants and they are mostly targeted towards young families with children. I concluded that maybe I could push them to take me if I wanted that, but I wouldn't be welcome, and it would be a miserable life with no support systems. BTW, I wasn't really interested in going there, just curious whether the law of return was really real, or not.

Thanks for this. I don't have any Jewish relatives so that angle wouldn't work for me.

Can I confirm that you attempted to obtain citizenship or at least contacted the relevant Israeli agencies, and you were told they were not interested in you? You then say 'maybe you could push them' - I really don't understand. Isn't it just the type of thing where you submit paperwork to some agency and you either qualify or you do not? Or are you saying its more of a case-by-case basis kind of thing, and a human determines if they actually want you in, regardless of your qualifications?

I read someplace that one reason they do this is to beef up the Jewish numbers in Israel to offset the growth in the Arab/Palestinian population. If this were there motivation, I could see how they would accept pretty much anybody who qualified - as they are just looking to pad the data.

[DegenFarang]

Just to set the matter straight, anyone with at least one Jewish grandparent qualifies to be a citizen under the law of return. You do not have to actually be Jewish. However, you do have to move to Israel and stay at least a reasonable time.

Do you personally know anybody who has obtained citizenship via the Law of Return? It also states anybody who converts to Judaism qualifies...

[DegenFarang]

To convert into the Jewish faith is a serious commitment-- not for getting a second passport. Rather than getting into all the philosophy and lectures that encompass this subject, I will answer your question simply. To convert as a reform Jew is much less strenuous than being converted by a Conservative or Orthodox Rabbi. It is quite a lengthly process, and if you contact a Reform Rabbi he would be able to give you a much more sophisticated and reliable answer than I could attempt to give. BTW there are no reform rabbis in Thailand and as far as I know only Chabad exists here which is an extremely religious branch of Jewry.

Any idea on the time commitment involved?

I know a lot of practicing expat Jews in Thailand - I'm sure the infrastructure is in place here for people to convert.

[Naam]

i have two american jewish friends who applied for israeli citizenship approximately five years ago and got it within a few months without settling in Israel. for them the big advantage of the alternative passport is that their offshore portfolios are safe from the IRS.

[DegenFarang]

for them the big advantage of the alternative passport is that their offshore portfolios are safe from the IRS.

Zing

[DegenFarang]

i have two american jewish friends who applied for israeli citizenship approximately five years ago and got it within a few months without settling in Israel. for them the big advantage of the alternative passport is that their offshore portfolios are safe from the IRS.

Do you know if they actually had to go to Israel or was it just a paperwork by mail thing?

[Jingthing]

All of my Israeli relatives that I know about are Americans and moved to Israel presumably under the law of return. None were tax scammers. They were all legitimate and moved there because of being strictly religious. I got my info from various websites. Start at the Israeli embassy, Washington D.C. The law of return is not an automatic thing and if you read these website you will figure that out. It is a political ideal, not fully met, kind of like Obama's promise for health care reform. There are lots of political ramifications and policies have changed over the years. One of the biggest issues has to do with Ethiopian Jews. A good portion of those that applied to come to Israel were not in fact ever Jews. Instead they were merely economic refugees. It was very hard to determine which were legitimate so this has been a big political headache over the years for Israel. I would take the poster's suggestion that Israeli passports are commonly sought for tax evasion with a huge grain of Kosher salt. Not saying there aren't some scammers doing this, but Israel is not welcoming this. This line of reasoning doesn't even make sense to me. Its not as if Israel doesn't have taxes. As far as converts, they would most likely be held to a higher level of religious scrutiny (probably involving rabbis) than born Jews, who are not required to be religious at all.

Yes of course for political/demographic reasons Israel does want to grow the Jewish population there. But they are not meshuga. In many ways they aren't much different than Australia, there is a bigger welcome mat by way of encouragement and social programs for the skilled, the young, the productive, the families. If all the alte kockers in New York City moved there, it wouldn't be pretty.

I also think it is required to learn Hebrew. However, accomodations are probably made for older people who come to reunite with relatives, as we all know how hard it is for older people to learn languages.

[DegenFarang]

This line of reasoning doesn't even make sense to me. Its not as if Israel doesn't have taxes

Makes perfect sense. The US taxes on worldwide income, Israel does not. The only time you would owe taxes to Israel would be if you worked or invested in Israel.

[Jingthing]

Sounds illegal from a US tax point of view. Even people who give up US citizenship are subject to taxation and penalties if it is determined the motivation to give up citizenship was tax evasion. If you have been paying attention, you would know the US is aggressively going after this kind of cheating. I am not Israeli but I hope they don't attract too many of this kind of criminal. They have enough problems.

[DegenFarang]

Sounds illegal from a US tax point of view. Even people who give up US citizenship are subject to taxation and penalties if it is determined the motivation to give up citizenship was tax evasion. If you have been paying attention, you would know the US is aggressively going after this kind of cheating. I am not Israeli but I hope they don't attract too many of this kind of criminal. They have enough problems.

Sure its illegal from a US standpoint, but its damned near untraceable - especially if you get your Israeli Passport in a different name than your US Passport. Could make it bulletproof by doing your investing and banking through offshore LLC's owned by your Israeli self.

This is all just hypothetical of course, I'm extremely interested in the religion of Judaism and plan on converting - and am anxious to find out if I can become an Israeli citizen after my conversion

Thanks for all the replies so far.

[OriginalPoster]

Sounds illegal from a US tax point of view. Even people who give up US citizenship are subject to taxation and penalties if it is determined the motivation to give up citizenship was tax evasion. If you have been paying attention, you would know the US is aggressively going after this kind of cheating. I am not Israeli but I hope they don't attract too many of this kind of criminal. They have enough problems.

Sure its illegal from a US standpoint, but its damned near untraceable - especially if you get your Israeli Passport in a different name than your US Passport. Could make it bulletproof by doing your investing and banking through offshore LLC's owned by your Israeli self.

This is all just hypothetical of course, I'm extremely interested in the religion of Judaism and plan on converting - and am anxious to find out if I can become an Israeli citizen after my conversion

Thanks for all the replies so far.

Illegal but nearly untraceable doesn't actually sound that appealing. Doesn't that imply living out one's life as a fugitive, never quite 100% sure that you'll never get caught?

[Jingthing]

None of us are saints here. Interesting case. A dual interest in converting to the Jewish religion and illegal tax evasion. A good example of why us Jews do not seek converts. I hope the rabbis can smell a rat. Sorry, it sounds harsh, but why not Montenegro?

[7by7]

This is not really a visa question, so moved to General.

[Jingthing]

This is not really a visa question, so moved to General.

You're the boss, but this obviously belongs in the Visas and migration to other countries forum as it is clearly about MIGRATION to Israel.

[moe666]

Marry a girl with grandmother from Irland and both of you can get Irsih passports and eventual citizenship.

[Jingthing]

Marry a girl with grandmother from Irland and both of you can get Irsih passports and eventual citizenship.

Interesting. I would have to "convert" to pull that one off. Israel and Ireland both start with I so I can see the connection.

[bina]

well,obviously i will answer and i was the person u should have just pm'd in the first place. this thread isnt even thailand related...

im american and jewish and israeli with three kids with dual citizenship , one out of the army, one just now in, and one on the way to the army in two years...

nowadays, unless u can prove with documentation, that u have at least one parent (matrilineal) or one grandmother as jewish, the 'making aliya' is long and difficult...

converts must convert as orthodox jewish and approved by the israeli offices in question. and probably u would have to do an other conversion here as well.

why anyone in their right mind would actually want an israeli passport is beyond me. it is an invitation to problmes when over seas and prevents u from entering many countries, and other countries, even if u enter, are nto comfortable with an israeli passport in hand (arab friends in egypt with israeli passport got hassled, even their arabic sounds israeli, so they had to 'hide' the cover of their passport); uzbakestan wasnt fun either with my israeli passport.

the only reason i am intent on getting my thai husband his israeli passport (the long slow way w/o conversion, which means five years of temporary resident , speaking hebrew better each year and proving that his 'center of living' is israel) is to minimilze the need for renewing his visa /permit to stay and work each year since the visa offices change the rules every year.

with citizenship, my husband (he does not get any of the 'perks' that the olim get i.e. money, no tax first year, apartment rent help, finding job help, mortgages, etc) still gets gov. health insurance, can get unemployment if he works for a salary, and will in the future allow both of us to come and go at will between thailand and israel (i have no wish to be in the states havent lived there for 25 years).

im going to close the thread. nothing to do with thailand, and will also breakdown into a politcal blabla in a post or so.

bina

israel