Proof Of Retirement Income

[devaram]

They record your passport number - they already have your social security number on file in box 5 of your DS-11 passport application.

Has anyone ever complained that they were punished by the usa government because they exaggerated their income to get a thai visa?

If that did lead to a criminal charge against someone, do you actually think anyone would broadcast that on a public forum?

Well alot of people are doing it and have been doing it for a long time now and so far nobody has said anything to change my belief that the usa government doesnt give a hoot about it because it doesn't involve them at all (and if they did care they would require some proof) other than that they might possibly share that information with the IRS ? (but even that is a bit paranoid?)

[Jingthing]

The USA embassy in Bangkok requires no proof of income to get your embassy letter that you use at Thai immigration. You put down the figure on their form and sign that it is true. Thai immigration officers, at their discretion, may ask you to back up this letter with some documentation. I don't know if the officers are more likely to ask for this documentation of Americans, who they know do not need to provide any proof to their embassies to get the letter.

Did they ask you to provide proof? If they did, what proof did they want to see.

Who is they? I don't have experience of this myself. I do know the US embassy does not ask for proof and I also know Thai immigration KNOWS they don't ask for proof and they have the right to ask for additional proof above a letter if they want to. Therefore, lying to the US embassy is not only illegal, it may not even work if you encounter a skeptical immigration officer.

[Gary A]

I'm a US citizen and used the monthly income for my extension for two years. Each year I had to go to the US Embassy for a new statement and both years had to have it legalized at Laksi. Even after that it was made clear to me by Thai immigration that they were aware that some people lie about their income. I finally just put the 800,000 in my Thai bank and have had no further problems. Depending on which immigration office you use, they will have their own little rules.

My Thai wife now goes with me each time and if there are any nit picking questions from the immigration official, I gather up my papers and tell them that I am going to change to the support visa. That always clears up the niggling little problems and my extension is quickly approved.

[lopburi3]

You indeed could go to jail. You sign that document under oath that the information is correct.

[Jingthing]

The USA embassy in Bangkok requires no proof of income to get your embassy letter that you use at Thai immigration. You put down the figure on their form and sign that it is true. Thai immigration officers, at their discretion, may ask you to back up this letter with some documentation. I don't know if the officers are more likely to ask for this documentation of Americans, who they know do not need to provide any proof to their embassies to get the letter.

Did they ask you to provide proof? If they did, what proof did they want to see.

Who is they? I don't have experience of this myself. I do know the US embassy does not ask for proof and I also know Thai immigration KNOWS they don't ask for proof and they have the right to ask for additional proof above a letter if they want to. Therefore, lying to the US embassy is not only illegal, it may not even work if you encounter a skeptical immigration officer.

Apparently this has not been a problem so you are just projecting paranoia when it has not been the case normally and even if they did ask for proof so what you just go back to square one you don't go to jail.. its worth a try no?

Oh please stop that.

It is not paranoia. I am stating facts.

Fact 1 -- signing a lie on a US government document at the embassy is a crime. I don't know how serious a crime or if anyone has ever been convicted for this particular thing.

Fact 2 -- Thai immigration knows about the lack of proof needed at the US embassy. This is because they are not as stupid as you think and the US is a major country. If it was Malta doing this, maybe they wouldn't know.

Fact 3 -- In the past, on some occasions, there HAVE been reports here of applicants being asked for ADDITIONAL proof of income in addition to their embassy letter. It is also a fact that immigration has the legal right to do so, if they want to. So they may. They may does not mean they will.

I do think if they are asking for proof and you know you are lying the safest thing to do would be to say, sorry I don't have the proof. Certainly fabricating a false document to prove a lie would be a serious offense. Most likely all they would do is deny your application if you say you don't have proof. Just guessing, my guess is as good as yours on that one.

If you want to LIE you must make your own personal risk assessment of whether it is worth a try.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Jingthing

[tropo]

The USA embassy in Bangkok requires no proof of income to get your embassy letter that you use at Thai immigration. You put down the figure on their form and sign that it is true. Thai immigration officers, at their discretion, may ask you to back up this letter with some documentation. I don't know if the officers are more likely to ask for this documentation of Americans, who they know do not need to provide any proof to their embassies to get the letter.

Did they ask you to provide proof? If they did, what proof did they want to see.

Who is they? I don't have experience of this myself. I do know the US embassy does not ask for proof and I also know Thai immigration KNOWS they don't ask for proof and they have the right to ask for additional proof above a letter if they want to. Therefore, lying to the US embassy is not only illegal, it may not even work if you encounter a skeptical immigration officer.

You stated above: "Thai immigration officers, at their discretion, may ask you to back up this letter with some documentation".

I was asking you if they have ever asked you to provide additional documentation when applying for an extension.

In other words, how likely is it that this "may ask" will actually happen?

Edit: You've just answered my question in the post above. Thanks.

Edited January 7, 2010 by tropo

[Gary A]

When you get the income letter from the embassy, you fill it out yourself along with how much income you have. When you hand it in, they ask you; "Do you swear that the information you have given is true and factual"? I sure wouldn't want to lie about it. I'm quite sure that you could be prosecuted.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Gary A

[powderpuff]

Please close this.

[Jingthing]

Please close this.

Why? I think the OP is still working on understanding his visa issues. He should be the one to ask to close it if that's what he wants.

[expatriot]

Already then I thank you all for all the O-OA visa instructions feedback...

I am testing how to settle down with a stable long term Retirement visa...

I am USA and have several tickets now out of Vietnam arrival to BKK

1) I arrive at BKK get a stamp? or ask for a TOURIST visa? have no idea

never done that have not been there... As USA told no need for short term VISA

2) What ever Visa received at BKK i rush to locate temporary resident address and

under two days apply for O visa?... O visa good for 30 day can not leave BKK...

3) That is the end of first January BKK ticket, round trip back to Viet 21 days end

of January..

*So I destroy O Visa application!!... Second BKK ticket is May (every 90 days)

I travel BKK return to renew Viet VISA, May air ticket I stay Thailand 28 days..

4) Puzzle put together in pieces... to satisfy both a Vietnam and Thai Visa issue.. that I

was hoping.... eventually can get a stable long term Thai retirement Visa for a USA

not Vietnam citizen... US citizen living in Vietnam 4 years...

It may be simple.. if one has been there... done that... not if facing new visa regulations..

for me... not that simple... 63+ hoping on bus, airplane from central Viet.. searching for

Thai residential purchase.. a stable visa relocation... retirement along ocean views...

I am guilty of mistake for apartment property investment inside Vietnam

laws same as Thailand laws foreigners have no titled ownership rights...

Logistics to reinvest.. I seek a more stable... long term visa agreement.. may be a

retired persons final investment... Long term renting is not an option, facing global inflation

disbursed as a fixed income...

Malaysia retirement visa is a solid ten year term exchanged for cash deposit

with proof of additional monthly income.. A no nonsense airport arrival application...

Thailand retirement is best approached from the home country of a person planning

to retire also must apply to Thai embassy inside their citizenship home country to

capture the stable long term OA visa...

Second time around... be a gamble to purchase Thai property, hoping the O visa

will remain renewable forever... and ever as long as one remains alive...

Global warning, "past performance is no longer a measure of future performance,

everything is guaranteed to change"

So i have no more Thai Visa forum questions.. Thank you all for your patient response

and all suggestions...

[Jingthing]

O-A visa is not a stable option! Once you use it (up to two years), you must apply every year for an annual extension the same as everyone else. Just forget the O-A visa. It is not for you and offers you no long term benefits anyway.

The tourist visa is available at any Thai embassy or consulate outside of Thailand. Including Vietnam. You don't ask at the airport. You get it in Vietnam.

In Thailand with a tourist visa or 30 day stamp, you then want a CHANGE OF VISA STATUS to a single entry O visa. Not at the airport. At the immigration office closest to your new residence in Thailand. That O visa is good for an additional 90 day stay. You apply for the change of visa status with NO LESS than 21 days left on your 30 day stamp or 60 day tourist visa. Normally you apply for the annual extension (of the new O visa) based on retirement the same day as your change of visa status. However, the immigration officer may or may not allow that. If not, typically you will come back with 30 days left on your 90 day single entry O visa.

In my view -- you want to enter with at least a tourist visa. The 30 day stamp is probably not giving you enough time to get this all together.

If you are able to do the change of visa status and annual extension at the same time, then purchase a multiple re-entry permit allowing you to keep your annual extension alive while you travel outside Thailand.

Another option for you. Fly to Malaysia first. Get a single entry O visa. Then go to Thailand. Get reentry permits on that 90 day O visa. With 30 days left on that O visa apply for your annual extension IN Thailand. Then get new reentry permits for the new annual extension.

You don't have a Thai residence yet? Why not sign a short term lease on a condo while you get your immigration business sorted out, and then shop for your new home later?

As far as your personal travel date jigsaw puzzle, I am afraid I am going to have to punt on that one. I am trying to give you information to work with so you can PLAN your travel dates in a way that will maximize your chances of success.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

To expand on the Malaysia option, of course I meant going to the Thai embassy/consulate in either Kuala Lumpur or Penang. It should be quite easy to get a single entry O at either based on your age and desire to apply for a retirement extension in Thailand. You could also do this at Vientienne, Laos. Forget Singapore. Too bad they aren't helpful with this in Vietnam based on what you said.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Jingthing

[expatriot]

Jingthing, thank you for all your time, sincerely... you helped expatriot cut and paste a visa puzzle together.. outstanding,

dedicated, friendly support...

[JusMe]

Expatriot, you answered your own question:

I seek a more stable... long term visa agreement.. may be a

retired persons final investment... Long term renting is not an option, facing global inflation

disbursed as a fixed income...

Malaysia retirement visa is a solid ten year term exchanged for cash deposit

with proof of additional monthly income.. A no nonsense airport arrival application...

There you go - MM2H

[jazzbo]

Quote K. JT: I also know Thai immigration KNOWS they don't ask for proof and they have the right to ask for additional proof above a letter if they want to. Therefore, lying to the US embassy is not only illegal, it may not even work if you encounter a skeptical immigration officer.

Quote K. GA I sure wouldn't want to lie about it. I'm quite sure that you could be prosecuted.

18 U.S.C. § 1001. Statements or entries generally

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive (State Department), legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully--

(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;

(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or

(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry...

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years ....

Even if the US Consular Official has a reasonable hunch (body language, etc.) that you are making a false statement about your income, he/she will do nothing at that time. The problem would be if the Thai Immigration Officer asks for corroborating documents and you are unable to supply such after you answered 'yes' to the US Consular Official that you are aware such documents might be requested from the Thai Officials...and Thai Immigration notifies the US Embassy that someone with a notarized Letter was turned down for said reasons. Then the US Consulate may make further inquiries as to whether you violated US Law as above.

So anyone who thinks, because of the USA Document Authentication procedures that I described on the previous page, US Citizens are getting a free ride as to 'Proof of Income' purposes is not understanding the whole picture.