Buddhism Beats Depression

[camerata]

Buddhism beats depression

Should the [uK] health service sponsor Buddhist techniques to beat depression? Why not, if they work?

2010 could be the year that mindfulness meditation goes mainstream in the UK. It's already endorsed as a treatment for depression by the National Institute for Clinical Excellence, and today a major mental health charity is calling for meditation-based courses to be offered much more widely on the NHS.

...according to an ICM survey of GPs conducted for the Mental Health Foundation report, 64% of doctors would like to receive training in mindfulness themselves.

For that we can partly thank Morinaga Soko-Roshi, a zen teacher of Jon Kabat-Zinn, the doctor who first brought mindfulness training into US healthcare services in the 1970s. Kabat-Zinn knew that it would be considered unacceptably 'religious' to offer Buddhist training to his patients - however, he also had a strong hunch that the meditation techniques said to lead to insight on the Buddhist path might also help people cope with chronic illness. Unsure of what to do, he went to see Soko-Roshi and asked his advice. "Throw out Buddha! Throw out Zen!" came the abrupt reply.

Full Story.

[rockyysdt]

Excellent idea.

My concentration is still quite short but hopefully will improve over time with practice.

Several months ago I experienced a very emotional period in my life. I found myself reenacting the trauma in my mind over & over again. This perpetuated the pain & depression which came with the initial event.

My mindfulness, when concentration kicked, was able to observe these thoughts & stop them, resulting in much shallower bouts of negative thought & eventually l was able to move on. The mindfulness also helped me work through all the issues involved in the original event allowing me to put issues to rest without attachment.

A work colleague of mine lost her partner in a motorcycle accident 3 months ago. I watched her deteriorate over this time. She continually repeats the tragedy in her mind & wallows in deep depression. She now smokes, takes tranquilizers, suffers from insomnia & looks physically unwell.

I discussed this with her during which time she confided that she can't get the event out of her mind.

I explained that it was important to go through her grieving & feel the pain associated with her loss, but through mindfulness she could stop the automatic thoughts. I explained that letting go didn't mean she cared any less about her partner but that she needed respite from her thoughts.

She agreed, but as expected hasn't adopted the mindfulness technique preferring to go down the easy path of drowning in her uncontrolled thoughts.

It will be excellent to see the NHS & other medical institutions adopting Mindfulness Techniques as away of treating depression but how do you make the patient adopt & stick to the practice?

Edited January 7, 2010 by rockyysdt

[phetaroi]

I think there are two situations to look at here.

The first is mild depression...and I speak from experience from a couple of difficult years in my life. If it's truly mild, it shouldn't be the taxpayer's responsibility to cure you. Interestingly, a very new study found that in mild cases of depression, medicines such as Paxil rarely made a significant difference as compared to a placebo.

The other situation is...well rather than say "severe" and make it too small a group..."significant depression". Here we are talking about a serious malfunction in brain chemistry. Can you demonstrate the Buddhist meditation will significantly modify brain chemistry?

[rockyysdt]

The other situation is...well rather than say "severe" and make it too small a group..."significant depression". Here we are talking about a serious malfunction in brain chemistry. Can you demonstrate the Buddhist meditation will significantly modify brain chemistry?

I suspect that if depression is being caused by schizophrenia, bi polar disease or a faulty brain then mindfulness isn't the answer.

On the other hand if depression is caused by trauma &/or negative self talk & the patient keeps on repeating negative events in their mind & can't let go, then mindfulness & meditation are perfect techniques to help overcome this.

[Samuian]

I think there are two situations to look at here.

The first is mild depression...and I speak from experience from a couple of difficult years in my life. If it's truly mild, it shouldn't be the taxpayer's responsibility to cure you. Interestingly, a very new study found that in mild cases of depression, medicines such as Paxil rarely made a significant difference as compared to a placebo.

The other situation is...well rather than say "severe" and make it too small a group..."significant depression". Here we are talking about a serious malfunction in brain chemistry. Can you demonstrate the Buddhist meditation will significantly modify brain chemistry?

yes!

Unless it is a purely physical disorder, malfunctioning!

Diet, mindfulness, breathing exercise, yoga combined, massage., proper treatment (Ayurveda f.E.) can do wonders!

[phetaroi]

Okay...but lots of things can improve that, and the question was should the government pay for things like meditation for this purpose.

When I was having some depression due to my son's stupidity (which was tearing the family apart), I know that a trip to Hawaii would have really helped my depression. Should the government have paid for the flight, hotels, and dining?

I know I would have been happier had I gone out to a different high class restaurant every night. Should the government have paid for that daily dining experience?

Let me tell you a true incident. I was the principal of a public middle school in Virginia. We had a large group of handicapped students, some physically, but most learning disabled (ranging quite a full gamut of conditions from mildly severe autism, mild mental retardation, Turrets syndrome, and so forth. One parent got it in her mind that because of something a doctor said, the school should build a horse stable for her daughter so that she could have daily riding lessons. It actually went to court! She lost, of course.

The point is that there are thousands of things that would improve the lives of individual patients, but you cannot expect the government to cover all those many different things. What you might expect the government to cover would be broad types of treatment that work for large groups of patients.

[moe666]

Saw a movie a few years ago and they were using mindfullness meditation in a Indian prison. They were having great success in curbing violence and prisoner returns to jail.

[rockyysdt]

Okay...but lots of things can improve that, and the question was should the government pay for things like meditation for this purpose.

When I was having some depression due to my son's stupidity (which was tearing the family apart), I know that a trip to Hawaii would have really helped my depression. Should the government have paid for the flight, hotels, and dining?

I know I would have been happier had I gone out to a different high class restaurant every night. Should the government have paid for that daily dining experience?

Meditation & mindfulness goes to the heart of a persons depression (obsessive negative thoughts type).

lt enables a person to experience deep relaxation as well as be able to recognise & control repeating negative thought.

As long as the patient follows through with regular practice, teaching it would be relatively inexpensive to the NHS, especially when you consider the costs to the community due to chronic depression.

Currently sedatives & tranquilizers don't actually correct a persons depression, they merely hide it away leading to more problems.

I suspect a holiday to Hawaii or a meal at a classy restaurant won't correct depression but merely occupy ones mind for awhile, with repetitive negative thoughts returning when the sufferers mind is no longer occupied with new thoughts.

Edited January 9, 2010 by rockyysdt

[Xangsamhua]

How does mindfulness meditation beat depression unless it is backed by instruction in the four noble truths and the eightfold path? Wouldn't mindfulness meditation be counter-productive for someone who is obsessed with the self and its current suffering?

To get people to focus on their current "being-in-the-world" (dasein) when they find that "being" intolerable doesn't sound too therapeutic to me.

Relaxation therapy through calming meditation would be helpful to depressives if they could do it, if they could really relax and detach themselves, observing the depression neutrally. Problem is, they're depressed because they're incapable of standing apart and taking a neutral view of their suffering. I can't see how being mindful without a doctrinal base can snap them out of it.

A realistic understanding of life and the human condition, as taught by the Buddha, together with the pathway to mental and physical health attainable through the 8-fold path and the 5 precepts - now that would really help depressives, but it wouldn't be funded through the National Health.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Xangsamhua

[rockyysdt]

Problem is, they're depressed because they're incapable of standing apart and taking a neutral view of their suffering. I can't see how being mindful without a doctrinal base can snap them out of it.

Doctrine is a policy taught or advocated.

Even the Buddha taught against this.

A depressive can snap out of it simply by breaking the chain of repetitive negative thoughts & to experience a profound level of deep relaxation.

A depressive brain is bathed in chemical reactions brought about from negative thought.

Stop this & the person starts to experience life differently.

How does mindfulness meditation beat depression unless it is backed by instruction in the four noble truths and the eightfold path? Wouldn't mindfulness meditation be counter-productive for someone who is obsessed with the self and its current suffering?

A realistic understanding of life and the human condition, as taught by the Buddha, together with the pathway to mental and physical health attainable through the 8-fold path and the 5 precepts - now that would really help depressives, but it wouldn't be funded through the National Health.

Hi X.

I don't have proof but my feeling is that regular sittings of one pointed contemplation with focus on the breathe (or other point) & wakeful mindfulness will eventually bring about a profound level of awareness automatically leading to rightful thought & action.

Although the four noble truths and the eightfold path logically captures the path in detail most would struggle to truly live by it without regular meditation & mindfulness practice.

The four noble truths and the eightfold path provides the logic however regular single pointed meditation & mindfulness during your wakeful life will give you profound self experience, something which will automatically cause you to live life appropriately.

I think that one can read the four noble truths and the eightfold path & try to live by it, or one can meditate & be mindful & experience it.

The Buddha said that we shouldn't accept his word for things but to reach the answer through self experience.

I'd rather live a life in the middle path & regularly practice allowing the the four noble truths and the eightfold path to reveal themselves to me than to accept it word for word & lock myself into something which might turn out to be doctrinal.

During my focus on mindfulness I've gained quite an insight on how my mind works.

My mind tends to latch onto thoughts & plays these over & over again. If they are negative thoughts what happens is that l end up either feeling bad or reliving a scenario all over again. Thoughts can have similar effects on our bodies as do actual experiences (adrenalin surge, insomnia, low self esteem, fear, etc). This can eventually lead to substantial depression. Using meditation l can bring about a profound level of calmness & well being & also break the chain of repetitive thought. Also mindfulness allows me to deal with the issues surrounding the thoughts.

I have a book titled The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. I'm about to reread it. Eloquent & inspiring as it is, it's a work of logic.

I believe the path which we're on can only be realized through self experience.

That's why l think you can overcome depression (certain types) without knowing the four noble truths and the eightfold path.

Do you disagree?

NB: Adding the four noble truths and the eightfold path into the NHS program would probably alienate most due to a perceived religious aspect or zeal.

Edited January 9, 2010 by rockyysdt

[phetaroi]

A depressive can snap out of it simply by breaking the chain of repetitive negative thoughts & to experience a profound level of deep relaxation.

A depressive brain is bathed in chemical reactions brought about from negative thought.

Rocky, you have grossly oversimplified depression and its multiple causes. While I agree that "a depressive brain is bathed in chemical reactions", those reactions are not brought on by simple negative thoughts.

[Xangsamhua]

Rocky, I thought twice about using the word "doctrine", as it can have connotations of "indoctrination" or even "dogma". I even checked a thesaurus and was satisfied that the word reflected what I meant - a teaching/something taught.

The Buddha taught. What he taught is 'Buddhist doctrine', teachings later filtered by the experience and interpretations of teachers and hearers since the Buddha's day, but the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path and the Five Precepts are, I think, teachings/doctrine common to all the different schools and traditions.

I don't think the Buddha eschewed doctrine. He counselled against unquestioning faith, advising his disciples not to take a teaching on trust, but to test it on the touchstone of experience, but he was nevertheless confident (indeed, certain) that his teachings were true and would be validated by experience. "The Buddha is saying, not 'Make your own Truth', but 'Make the Truth your own'." (Richard Gombrich, citing Steven Collins, in Theravada Buddhism. Routledge, 2006: 73.)

(An aside: Many years ago now, as a young Education Officer in the Air Force Reserve, I once taught a subject called "Military Indoctrination" (abbreviated, ironically, as MIND). Now that sounds like the sort of thing the Chinese did in the Korean War (brainwashing), but in fact it was just teaching new officer recruits the basic knowledge they need to have to get around the Air Force environment - whom to salute, where and when, the rank and command structure, the different branches, units and bases and what they did, the expectations and responsibilities of a junior officer, and so on. The Royal Australian Air Force, in its slow-moving wisdom, understood 'doctrine' as teaching, and essential teaching as 'indoctrination'. Fortunately, shortly afterwards, they changed the name of the subject to "General Service Knowledge".)

Edited January 10, 2010 by Xangsamhua

[Yamantaka]

Can Buddhism cure depression? No. Can psychotherapy cure depression? No. Can medication cure depression? No. Real depression results from an internal "short circuit" of the electrical signals within the brain. The key is acknowledging that malfunction and understanding that it is physiological rather than psychological. I have suffered from chemical depression since childhood but once I realized that it was only an imbalance, it was easier to deal with. For some reason, in our culture having a physical disorder is acceptable but having a mental one is not. Situational depression is caused by external events so can be dealt with acceptance of what has happened and understanding the teachings on karma and reincarnation. Once I began to take Buddhist teachings and learned to meditate, my ability to deal with the depression became better as I could see some of the causation. I will be the first to admit that losing everything to the tsunami and subsequent malfeasance left me seriously depressed even with my thirty years of Buddhist teachings and meditation. I believe that analytical meditation can give anyone the "wisdom" and strength to live with depression which results from bad things in his or her life. It is being able to calm the mind sufficiently to look at the problems objectively that can get us through the worst times and keep chronic depression from ruining our lives.

[rockyysdt]

Rocky, you have grossly oversimplified depression and its multiple causes. While I agree that "a depressive brain is bathed in chemical reactions", those reactions are not brought on by simple negative thoughts.

Hi Phetaroi.

Tried to convey a number of thoughts in a short period this morning & perhaps wasn't specific as I was on earlier posts in this thread.

Obviously those who suffer depression due to genetics, chemical in balance & brain damage require far more than meditation to help them.

The group l was referring to are those who can get depressed due to negative self talk, psychological trauma & reaction due to misunderstanding.

[rockyysdt]

Rocky, I thought twice about using the word "doctrine", as it can have connotations of "indoctrination" or even "dogma". I even checked a thesaurus and was satisfied that the word reflected what I meant - a teaching/something taught.

The Royal Australian Air Force, in its slow-moving wisdom, understood 'doctrine' as teaching, and essential teaching as 'indoctrination'. Fortunately, shortly afterwards, they changed the name of the subject to "General Service Knowledge".)

Thanks X.

Doctrine & indoctrination can conjure a limited meaning in some peoples minds.

Currently there's a worldwide industry offering many the benefits of meditation (an integral part of Buddhism) without involving the higher goals of enlightenment.

I'm personally convinced that regular meditation can help many with their mental health. Perhaps that's why the NHS is considering it.

Of course you & l know the ceiling is limitless if we follow the dhamma.

NB: You must have had some great experiences in the RAAF.

Edited January 10, 2010 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Can Buddhism cure depression? No. Can psychotherapy cure depression? No. Can medication cure depression? No. Real depression results from an internal "short circuit" of the electrical signals within the brain. The key is acknowledging that malfunction and understanding that it is physiological rather than psychological. I have suffered from chemical depression since childhood but once I realized that it was only an imbalance, it was easier to deal with. For some reason, in our culture having a physical disorder is acceptable but having a mental one is not. Situational depression is caused by external events so can be dealt with acceptance of what has happened and understanding the teachings on karma and reincarnation. Once I began to take Buddhist teachings and learned to meditate, my ability to deal with the depression became better as I could see some of the causation. I will be the first to admit that losing everything to the tsunami and subsequent malfeasance left me seriously depressed even with my thirty years of Buddhist teachings and meditation. I believe that analytical meditation can give anyone the "wisdom" and strength to live with depression which results from bad things in his or her life. It is being able to calm the mind sufficiently to look at the problems objectively that can get us through the worst times and keep chronic depression from ruining our lives.

Hi Y.

Your personal experience with depression must have given you many insights.

I'm glad you were able to overcome it.

Your last statement seems to support that meditation (a sub set of Buddhism) can help those with depression.

Also single pointed meditation can result in a deep level of calmness & can improve ones power of concentration allowing better quality analytical mindfulness.

Perhaps cure is the wrong word?

Edited January 10, 2010 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

The "typical" depressive is not someone born with a chemical imbalance in his brain, it's someone who endures a sustained negative situation that causes his brain to change its chemical balance. It's not necessarily irreversible.

The initial problem is that the feel-good chemicals in the brain don't stay there long enough after something that makes us feel good. The more serious problem is that the feel-good chemicals don't even get into the brain in the first place.

One of the first things a shrink will tell a depressive (say, a mom who can't cope with four kids or a guy who just lost his job) is to push himself to go out and do pleasurable things. Go for a meal, a movie, whatever, especially with other people. Even though it takes real effort, the idea is to get the feel-good chemicals flowing back into the brain. The sooner the better. Too long and the brain seems to get irrevocably rewired.

If mindfulness meditation (or any kind of meditation, or chanting mantras) can get the feel-good chemicals moving again, it's really no different from a shrink's advice. After the instruction, it's done at home (and no need to go out!), so it costs relatively little. I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Now that Freudian psychotherapy is out of vogue, one of the shrink's main tools other than drugs (but often in conjunction with drugs) is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, which isn't that different from some aspects of Buddhist teaching. I think either would work fine. The critical factor is time. People who have sudden nervous breakdowns usually make a complete recovery, but clinical depression tends to build up for years before people get treatment, and then it's tough to get back to normal and stop taking the anti-depressants.

[phetaroi]

The "typical" depressive is not someone born with a chemical imbalance in his brain, it's someone who endures a sustained negative situation that causes his brain to change its chemical balance. It's not necessarily irreversible.

The initial problem is that the feel-good chemicals in the brain don't stay there long enough after something that makes us feel good. The more serious problem is that the feel-good chemicals don't even get into the brain in the first place.

One of the first things a shrink will tell a depressive (say, a mom who can't cope with four kids or a guy who just lost his job) is to push himself to go out and do pleasurable things. Go for a meal, a movie, whatever, especially with other people. Even though it takes real effort, the idea is to get the feel-good chemicals flowing back into the brain. The sooner the better. Too long and the brain seems to get irrevocably rewired.

If mindfulness meditation (or any kind of meditation, or chanting mantras) can get the feel-good chemicals moving again, it's really no different from a shrink's advice. After the instruction, it's done at home (and no need to go out!), so it costs relatively little. I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Now that Freudian psychotherapy is out of vogue, one of the shrink's main tools other than drugs (but often in conjunction with drugs) is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, which isn't that different from some aspects of Buddhist teaching. I think either would work fine. The critical factor is time. People who have sudden nervous breakdowns usually make a complete recovery, but clinical depression tends to build up for years before people get treatment, and then it's tough to get back to normal and stop taking the anti-depressants.

Hi C!

Actually a very good summary. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I went through a mild "situation" depression for a couple of years. Took Paxil, which pretty much took care of the problem, but that had a mildly unpleasant time getting off of it. Back to normal now. There are days when I can tell I'm very slightly depressed, and as you hinted at, I just tell myself to get off my butt and go out and go someplace. It almost doesn't matter where. The minute I'm outside and walking I feel like Mr. Rogers again...it's a wonderful day in the neighborhood! And realizing that is half the battle...making myself do it is the other half of the battle.

But I keep remembering that the OP was whether the government should pay for things like Buddhist meditation lessons.

[camerata]

But I keep remembering that the OP was whether the government should pay for things like Buddhist meditation lessons.

I guess governments tend to look at things in dollars and cents. If it costs them less than handing out Zoloft, they'll do it.

[frenchfarangjomtien]

Can Buddhism cure depression? No. Can psychotherapy cure depression? No. Can medication cure depression? No. Real depression results from an internal "short circuit" of the electrical signals within the brain. The key is acknowledging that malfunction and understanding that it is physiological rather than psychological. I have suffered from chemical depression since childhood but once I realized that it was only an imbalance, it was easier to deal with. For some reason, in our culture having a physical disorder is acceptable but having a mental one is not. Situational depression is caused by external events so can be dealt with acceptance of what has happened and understanding the teachings on karma and reincarnation. Once I began to take Buddhist teachings and learned to meditate, my ability to deal with the depression became better as I could see some of the causation. I will be the first to admit that losing everything to the tsunami and subsequent malfeasance left me seriously depressed even with my thirty years of Buddhist teachings and meditation. I believe that analytical meditation can give anyone the "wisdom" and strength to live with depression which results from bad things in his or her life. It is being able to calm the mind sufficiently to look at the problems objectively that can get us through the worst times and keep chronic depression from ruining our lives.

Interesting post, thank you.

[poohphilosopy]

I have only been practicing meditation for a short time but I can say that through meditation, I have significantly decreased my anxiety and stress level. I am now able to make clear and cognitive decisions in life, void of the negative emotions and possible judgment that may influence my actions. Indeed Buddhism can help prevent depression, because I think that every Buddhist is able to attain a sense of calmness and serenity that he/she is able to maintain that balance of his emotions and stress in life.

[healthcaretaker]

Can Buddhism cure depression? No. Can psychotherapy cure depression? No. Can medication cure depression? No. Real depression results from an internal "short circuit" of the electrical signals within the brain. The key is acknowledging that malfunction and understanding that it is physiological rather than psychological. I have suffered from chemical depression since childhood but once I realized that it was only an imbalance, it was easier to deal with. For some reason, in our culture having a physical disorder is acceptable but having a mental one is not. Situational depression is caused by external events so can be dealt with acceptance of what has happened and understanding the teachings on karma and reincarnation. Once I began to take Buddhist teachings and learned to meditate, my ability to deal with the depression became better as I could see some of the causation. I will be the first to admit that losing everything to the tsunami and subsequent malfeasance left me seriously depressed even with my thirty years of Buddhist teachings and meditation. I believe that analytical meditation can give anyone the "wisdom" and strength to live with depression which results from bad things in his or her life. It is being able to calm the mind sufficiently to look at the problems objectively that can get us through the worst times and keep chronic depression from ruining our lives.

Everything starts from the smaller scale. In any form of depression, it's the psychological that caused the physiological. In all depression cases, the patient have something "unhappy" in their mind that started the problem, thus "mindfulness" is the only effective way to cure it. The "electrical signals " and "short circuit" part is a result of ther problem, not the actual cause.

I have "cured" some depression patients by "correcting" their mindset and thinkings and help them get rid of the unhappy thoughts.. Of course, meditation is a very supportive way to help the patient to have a good mind to "correct his thinking and erase the unhappy thoughts" beside allowing them to occupy their mind in a healthy way; making it no room for depression.

In a nutshell, the best way to cure depression is to make the patient understand the cause of his problem and then help them to get rid of them by making them understand more about life, mind and thoughts. Thus, Buddhism teachings can come in better and more useful than just meditation. For eg, in the case of someone who lost someone dear and close, for instance her husband. I will tell her what good will she get by feeling unhappy ? Can your unhappiness bring him back ? Do you believe he like to see you being unhappy and eventually get into serious depression ? Will his soul(or whatever) rest in peace if he knows that you are still unhappy ? Do you know why the Japanese never weep in a funeral ? These last 2 always work.

If necessary, I will bring in religion. If she is a christian, I will tell her that she should put the blame on her god or accept her god's wish for the husband's death. If she accept that it's god's wish and happy about it, fine. If not, change religion ! If she is a buddhist, I will check how much she understand and use some buddhism theories.