Kreng Jai

[upinthesky]

Isn't there is English for the definition of "Kreng Jai". Anyway, I have no idea for its true meaning. Posts here are only based on assumption.

[Neeranam]

Isn't there is English for the definition of "Kreng Jai". Anyway, I have no idea for its true meaning. Posts here are only based on assumption.

No there is no direct translation.

[lannarebirth]

Isn't there is English for the definition of "Kreng Jai". Anyway, I have no idea for its true meaning. Posts here are only based on assumption.

<H3 align=left>greng jai</H3>

This is a very Thai concept that will not translate to any single English word. It can be used to convey a sense of indebtedness and not wanting to impose any more. Thais will also use it in the sense of feeling the need to repay a favour. It can also be used in a sense of being fearful of causing offence or annoyance.

http://www.knowphuket.com/thai_language/L2...heart-words.htm

Edited January 10, 2010 by lannarebirth

[Neeranam]

It can also be used in a sense of being fearful of causing offence or annoyance.

เกรงขาม greng khaam to venerate; fear; revere; respect with fear

Edited January 10, 2010 by Neeranam

[popmybubble]

I asked my bf about greng jai and the example he gave me was:

if someone is sleeping then you turn the tv on loud, it's not greng jai

[ProfessorFart]

Made me laugh did this, seeing all of you pillocks falling all over yourselves to try and understand!

It's a concept that as a Westerner you're neither expected nor required to understand. Get over yourselves!

[t.s]

เกรงใจ is not 'empathy' or 'respect' as some have said.

It's now wanting the other person to be put in a difficult or awkward position. 'Subservience' is a word that comes to mind - you don't want to do or say something that the other person might think, "what a nerve".

A simple example was yesterday when my wife's fortune teller(30 yrs old) came to the house and my wife was upstairs. I asked her if she wanted a glass of water - she said no thanks. "Are you sure?" I said - she said "greng jai".

as i have said, the only way to describe it is anecdotal. every anecdote provides further evidence of how broadly this concept applies.

laziness,empathy, respect, subservience, fearfulness or whatever are all inadequate attempts to describe it, though i think all apply.

[t.s]

Made me laugh did this, seeing all of you pillocks falling all over yourselves to try and understand!

It's a concept that as a Westerner you're neither expected nor required to understand. Get over yourselves!

if that were the case how come we have so many sad bastards kicking around completely embittered, or worse, emasculated, by their experiences here?

would you rather we talk about pussy?

[ProfessorFart]

Oh yeah! Yup! Pussy! I'm good!

Far more relevant to our day to day lives here than Greng Jai, a concept which neither affects us nor none seem to understand here. Its always been one of the 'great untranslatables' and will remain so! Get over it! Take your head out of your arse and just accept you can't understand everything.

Edited January 10, 2010 by ProfessorFart

[473geo]

if that were the case how come we have so many sad bastards kicking around completely embittered, or worse, emasculated, by their experiences here?

would you rather we talk about pussy?

you see the first sentence is not greng jai, indicates emotion and lack of control.....should have just put in the second which was ok... .

Edited January 10, 2010 by 473geo

[ProfessorFart]

This whole thread just made me laugh especially when the geezer actually went to get his missus to write it it Thai for him before saying that it doesn't translate as 'empathy' but "not wanting to put the other person in an awkward position!" &lt;deleted&gt; does he think empathy means.....?

Edited January 10, 2010 by ProfessorFart

[cdnmatt]

Best I can gather, kreng jai basically means only take what you need in life (physically, emotionally, and spiritually), and share the rest with people who are kreng jai towards you. Be empathetic towards others, and put yourself in their shoes. Be willing to sacrifice things for their behalf.

[Neeranam]

Made me laugh did this, seeing all of you pillocks falling all over yourselves to try and understand!

It's a concept that as a Westerner you're neither expected nor required to understand. Get over yourselves!

Just because you don't understand doesn't mean the rest of us can't.

Oh yeah! Yup! Pussy! I'm good!

Far more relevant to our day to day lives here than Greng Jai, a concept which neither affects us nor none seem to understand here. Its always been one of the 'great untranslatables' and will remain so! Get over it! Take your head out of your arse and just accept you can't understand everything.

Speak for yourself Fart.

This whole thread just made me laugh especially when the geezer actually went to get his missus to write it it Thai for him before saying that it doesn't translate as 'empathy' but "not wanting to put the other person in an awkward position!" &lt;deleted&gt; does he think empathy means.....?

Empathy certainly doesn't mean that. PF has had too many real ales methinks

[cmsally]

As far as I have seen the concept means different things to different people especially across the social spectrum.

To a certain extent higher up the social spectrum people won't use the word but it will be evident in behaviour and more akin with good manners.

In patron client relationships it takes on a different role, more to do with status and reward.

Lower down the spectrum the word is often used but behaviour doesn't always match the concept.

It's more to do with trying to be seen as good mannered but often not really being able to carry it off when the whole picture is taken into account.

Just a generalisation but one that to a certain extent exists.

One thing that is very obvious to me is the greng jai in the workplace especially in govt sectors.

This can lead to the bad side/often result of greng jai which is gep got

เก็บกด

A lot of the problems in Thai society I believe stem from this, both on a smaller social scale and the larger picture as a whole.

[Samuian]

Short definition:

"taking it all, all the cr_p, all of it and still sporting a humble, all understanding smile, no matter what,

even the worst enemy is welcomed and greeted with a smile and a flower bouquet - till......

one of the major storefronts set up's here!

[Meridian007]

I've spoken with a professor of Sociology from Thammasat about it, and yes, anecdotal descriptions work best. The idea of consideration is a strong aspect of it, but when we were discussing it the issue of guilt as an emotion came up as well. If you think of guilt as an emotion that you feel, and you think about when you feel it, and what effect it has on your actions, you can adjust it to fit Kreng Jai, except that where guilt sits temporaly must be changed.

He wanted a simple sentence to explain it, so while I think this is over simplified, Kreng jai can be a feeling of guilt not for what has been done in the past, but for what might be done in the future.

[Tod Daniels]

I see there are no shortage of opinions from the mindless, sheep-like, color-coordinated shirt and matching snazzy rubber bracelet wearing, foreign, sock puppets otherwise known as the “wanna-b-thai brigade” with the mindless rhetoric.

The indigenous natives here are about a buddhist as most americans including myself are christian. It's called “selective religion”; when it suits them and/or their specific situation they'll embrace it, but other than that it's put on the back burner.

I agree with the poster who said; you're a foreigner here. Having that illustrious status here lets you fall outside the oxymoronic rigid guidelines which govern the oh-so predictable thai behavioral patterns pawned off as 'thai culture' Remember, generations of brain-washing do not necessarily equate to any inherent cultural identity, only to actions without thinking. My advice, don't waste a second thinking about or reacting to anything to do with the mythical thing known as 'thai culture' <-now there's an oxymoron. That stuff is best left for thais to deal with.

I've never ever exhibited เกรงใจ in dealing with the thais; nor have I cared one iota if it was used by them in dealing with me. I'm not here to be deferential; I'm here to achieve goals and get things done. If it puts a thai on the spot, or ruffles a few feathers in the process, who cares? Last time I checked I don't live here just to impress these ever smiling-yet diminutive people in any way shape or form. Certainly it's not impacted the way my thai acquaintances interact with me in the nearly 5 years I've been here.

**MODZ**

This topic might be better served in the Thai Language Forum, so the thai language heavy-weights like; rikker, aanon, Meadish, etc can weigh in on the topic to a greater degree and provide the enlightenment the posters are seeking.

[Mobi]

I see there are no shortage of opinions from the mindless, sheep-like, color-coordinated shirt and matching snazzy rubber bracelet wearing, foreign, sock puppets otherwise known as the "wanna-b-thai brigade" with the mindless rhetoric.

Well it's sure as heck better than being an arrogant, jumped-up, supercilious, pompous, patronising, know it all, who has nothing better to do than throw mindless insults at folk who are having a sensible, not too serious discussion on one of the facets of Thai life which for most non-Thais, is a difficult concept to comprehend.

Your valuable contribution to this thread will forever be cherished.

[SeanMoran]

I see there are no shortage of opinions from the mindless, sheep-like, color-coordinated shirt and matching snazzy rubber bracelet wearing, foreign, sock puppets otherwise known as the "wanna-b-thai brigade" with the mindless rhetoric.

Well it's sure as heck better than being an arrogant, jumped-up, supercilious, pompous, patronising, know it all, who has nothing better to do than throw mindless insults at folk who are having a sensible, not too serious discussion on one of the facets of Thai life which for most non-Thais, is a difficult concept to comprehend.

Your valuable contribution to this thread will forever be cherished.

Okay! I confess! I went for a walk up the road to Tesco's this early morning because I've left most of my clothes back in the other apartment around 20km away and just like I bought a new shirt yesterday to wear today, I bought a shirt to wear tomorrow, before I head back to the old place on Wednesday to pick up my gear and bring back here.

Ummm, well, actually, it's err, pink for Tuesday.

The checkouts on the top floor of Tesco Lotus here in Ban Chang were all closed when I brought my new macho Tuesday-pink shirt to pay for, and I was confused, rummaging through my wallet for the correct tender to give to the security guard as payment, which I didn't have, so I left that shirt on the counter and took off down the escalator outside for a durrie to think of what to do in such a difficult situation. Woe was me! I'd just managed to work up the courage to buy a pink tee-shirt and still feel macho, but there I was with the money in my pocket, but nobody to take it and let me have my shirt! Forsooth!

After a few deep breaths outside in the fresh air and some staring up at the sky for a bit, I wiped the tears from mine eyes and went back up the escalator to see if they'd opened the checkouts yet (around 09:30am).

No they hadn't, but my new macho pink shirt was still there on the counter along with the new pack of undies where I'd left them. In despair I looked around grimacing in frustration until the security guard walked over and informed me of the OTHER escalator where I could just go downstairs with my macho pink tee-shirt and pay for it at the checkouts there.

All good in the end, but I consider this morning's little shopping excursion a rather poor example of greng jai on my part, although I now have the right colour tee-shirt to wear tomorrow.

[JusMe]

I asked my bf about greng jai and the example he gave me was:

if someone is sleeping then you turn the tv on loud, it's not greng jai

So, this is the same as having a "sanook" party with amplified screeching self-inflicted entertainment, high pitched drums, and pounding bass, all that can be heard and felt a kilometer away.

Seems that kreng jai applies only to those close to you or socially above you, not as any consideration generally for other people.

And it does seem to be a significant part of Thai culture. True, lack of consideration can be found in many western cultures, but it's usually gender or age related, rather than generally self-centered. And when that behaviour is pointed out as inconsiderate, many (most? obviously not all) westerners will feel some guilt and shame at interfering in the lives of others around them.

Here, kreng jai seems to be on the part of the recipient, not to object when there's no consideration shown to him. It does not apply to the initiator who intrudes on the lives of others.

[Loz]

One word definitions aren't really adequate but here's my take.

Kreng Jai: Consideration

Naam Jai: Generosity

That has nailed it in my book too.

[cmsally]

I think sometimes kreng jai is tied to deference and there are occasions when to show it would be a loss of face.

This maybe applies to your village party etc, as in have a bit of a powerhouse behind you means you have to be the biggest, loudest etc.

Kreng jai goes out of the window when keeping up with the Joneses and to be so would be maybe seen as a loss of face.

Again a generalisation but maybe one aspect tied in.

[quiksilva]

I have always taken "Krengjai" to be about deference, out of respect and consideration for the other party's position.

It can be a real obstacle to business. Taken to extremes it prevents the junior party from questioning decisions of superiors or even make them hesitant about offering alternative advice to clients who may have made poor choices. It may also make staff reluctant to offer suggestions for improvement for fear of making someone look bad.

In many ways I think krengjai creates this top heavy management system where the head honcho has to make every single decision.

As I say to my staff leave "krengjai" at home, if you have to something to say, say it!

I know it is more subtle than that, but this where I encounter it the most.

[Neeranam]

I see there are no shortage of opinions from the mindless, sheep-like, color-coordinated shirt and matching snazzy rubber bracelet wearing, foreign, sock puppets otherwise known as the "wanna-b-thai brigade" with the mindless rhetoric.

Well it's sure as heck better than being an arrogant, jumped-up, supercilious, pompous, patronising, know it all, who has nothing better to do than throw mindless insults at folk who are having a sensible, not too serious discussion on one of the facets of Thai life which for most non-Thais, is a difficult concept to comprehend.

Your valuable contribution to this thread will forever be cherished.

Nice avatar - I have a lot of experience with both things.

I'm amazed - Todd daniels was writing like he knew everything about Thailand 4 years ago - let's see he had been here 1 year

He's just trying to show his 'superiority' as he knows he is lacking, especially in his Thai ability. Dude after 5 years, I could speak fluent Thai!

I remember you when you joined this forum - you'd say 'na' after english words and say 'krung thep' instead of Bangkok Who's the wannabe Thai?

Edited January 11, 2010 by Neeranam

[t.s]

I see there are no shortage of opinions from the mindless, sheep-like, color-coordinated shirt and matching snazzy rubber bracelet wearing, foreign, sock puppets otherwise known as the "wanna-b-thai brigade" with the mindless rhetoric.

Well it's sure as heck better than being an arrogant, jumped-up, supercilious, pompous, patronising, know it all, who has nothing better to do than throw mindless insults at folk who are having a sensible, not too serious discussion on one of the facets of Thai life which for most non-Thais, is a difficult concept to comprehend.

Your valuable contribution to this thread will forever be cherished.

Nice avatar - I have a lot of experience with both things.

I'm amazed - Todd daniels was writing like he knew everything about Thailand 4 years ago - let's see he had been here 1 year

He's just trying to show his 'superiority' as he knows he is lacking, especially in his Thai ability. Dude after 5 years, I could speak fluent Thai!

I remember you when you joined this forum - you'd say 'na' after english words and say 'krung thep' instead of Bangkok Who's the wannabe Thai?

while mr todd-daniels may be a bit full of himself, perhaps you are forgetting who you were a few short years back.

so what do you say to all of us getting off our high horses and back to the discussion?

[t.s]

One word definitions aren't really adequate but here's my take.

Kreng Jai: Consideration

Naam Jai: Generosity

That has nailed it in my book too.

thanks for sorting it all out. discussion closed.

ps: does your book contain only pictures or are there words too?

[yabaaaa]

I see there are no shortage of opinions from the mindless, sheep-like, color-coordinated shirt and matching snazzy rubber bracelet wearing, foreign, sock puppets otherwise known as the “wanna-b-thai brigade” with the mindless rhetoric.

The indigenous natives here are about a buddhist as most americans including myself are christian. It's called “selective religion”; when it suits them and/or their specific situation they'll embrace it, but other than that it's put on the back burner.

I agree with the poster who said; you're a foreigner here. Having that illustrious status here lets you fall outside the oxymoronic rigid guidelines which govern the oh-so predictable thai behavioral patterns pawned off as 'thai culture' Remember, generations of brain-washing do not necessarily equate to any inherent cultural identity, only to actions without thinking. My advice, don't waste a second thinking about or reacting to anything to do with the mythical thing known as 'thai culture' <-now there's an oxymoron. That stuff is best left for thais to deal with.

I've never ever exhibited เกรงใจ in dealing with the thais; nor have I cared one iota if it was used by them in dealing with me. I'm not here to be deferential; I'm here to achieve goals and get things done. If it puts a thai on the spot, or ruffles a few feathers in the process, who cares? Last time I checked I don't live here just to impress these ever smiling-yet diminutive people in any way shape or form. Certainly it's not impacted the way my thai acquaintances interact with me in the nearly 5 years I've been here.

**MODZ**

This topic might be better served in the Thai Language Forum, so the thai language heavy-weights like; rikker, aanon, Meadish, etc can weigh in on the topic to a greater degree and provide the enlightenment the posters are seeking.

Thanks Todd the more you post about Thailand the more I am inlcined to agree. I find a lot of the so called culture "convenient" to say the least its more like a "get out of jail free card" along with "mai pen rai" I didnt come for the people or culture and Im not wasting my time even attempting to fathom it out.

[t.s]

Certainly it's not impacted the way my thai acquaintances interact with me in the nearly 5 years I've been here.

Thanks Todd the more you post about Thailand the more I am inlcined to agree. I find a lot of the so called culture "convenient" to say the least its more like a "get out of jail free card" along with "mai pen rai" I didnt come for the people or culture and Im not wasting my time even attempting to fathom it out.

i would like to point out that i did not ask whether you found kreng jai applied to your own lives, nor whether you have practiced during your tenure here. i simply asked if you cared to explain it, or if you could.

the answer appears to be no.

i see kreng jai as the source of most the litany of frustration i see voiced here on a daily basis.

certainly it has not impacted you at all, call me mad.

[katana]

This web page (by a Thai) has some info written on Thai culture and devotes a few sentences to GRENG JAI เกรงใจ:

...kreng jai เกรงใจ = to give high priority to how another person feels or thinks about something (lit. to be respectful to a person's heart).

The Thais are taught from an early age to "kreng jai" other people, which means they have to be careful with what they say and what they do so that they will not in anyway offend, upset or displease others. As a consequence, Thai people usually try their best not to "khat jai ขัดใจ" others. The eventual outcome is that most Thais seem to be very good at "ow jai เอาใจ" or pleasing others. What this means is that conflicts are to be avoided at all cost so that harmony can be maintained and the way to do it is to be attentive to those one comes into contact with. This confirms the "mai pen rai ไม่เป็นไร" nature of the Thai as demonstrated in their linguistic experience as discussed earlier...

Sometimes I also see Greng jai translated as 'consideration and respect for someone else's feelings'.

[yabaaaa]

Certainly it's not impacted the way my thai acquaintances interact with me in the nearly 5 years I've been here.

Thanks Todd the more you post about Thailand the more I am inlcined to agree. I find a lot of the so called culture "convenient" to say the least its more like a "get out of jail free card" along with "mai pen rai" I didnt come for the people or culture and Im not wasting my time even attempting to fathom it out.

i would like to point out that i did not ask whether you found kreng jai applied to your own lives, nor whether you have practiced during your tenure here. i simply asked if you cared to explain it, or if you could.

the answer appears to be no.

i see kreng jai as the source of most the litany of frustration i see voiced here on a daily basis.

certainly it has not impacted you at all, call me mad.

Nope your'e not mad everyone thinks they're normal. Sorry I have no answer for you as you correctly stated.