Should An Ex-bar Girl Hide Her Past...

[gvallee2]

stall workers make 900$ a month? WOT?????????????????????? SOME MAKE $2700 A MONTH? DOUBLE wot?

ACCORDING TO THIS FELLAS numbers its more lucrative to cook som toms than spreading ones som toms . do bgs know what they are missing out on......

My mother in law sells sumtam and some meats at a stand, last week she had 1 night she made 8000baht in profit..

Regular profit is about 1000 1500 baht..

I dont understand why broke westerners in thailand get so excited about 900$ lol..

[Tod Daniels]

Interesting post.

Why dont you invest 10,000 baht and set her up in her own business?

Then you can see if she really wants to make something of herself or if she isn't willing to put the effort in

If she puts the effort in, get her into school part time

If she is serious she will work much harder in her own business, if she isn't losing 10,000 is not so bad for everything you learned about her

What kind of business can you start for 10,000 bht??

Food trolley business. A food trolley cost about THB7.000. My neighbour is making them.

While this is slightly off topic, it is in line with the previous posts, so please bear with me. It shows what a motivated person with little education CAN do if they set their mind to it and/or aren’t afraid of hard work.

You'd be quite surprised at just how much money a well located and busy portable food stand can make in a day. Even if they only offer take-away and don't have the plastic chairs, tables, plates, silverware for sit down diners. Yes the hours are long, especially given the necessity of going to a wet-market in the morning, at home food prep, as well as standing up and selling food all day, but there IS money to be made.

Here’re two examples:

There is an old guy who has a fruit stand at the front of my apartment gate next to my soi. In talking with him, I found out he's had the stand here 16 years, and works on average of 9 hours a day with only Sunday off (when he rents the cart to someone else). He doesn't need to go to the market every morning as he's bought from the same supplier long enough they deliver the fruit to his house. He cores, peels, prepares the fruit, the spices, etc before he arrives, and his block ice supplier also delivers to his home. I found out he profits between 1200-1500baht on a normal day (that's pure profit AFTER expenses). He's put 3 children thru university, and drives a relatively new Isuzu D-Max 4X4. He's there rain or shine, day after day, and he is definitely a success story as far as a fruit seller, and the soi I live on is a dead end one too so no thru traffic.

Another food seller husband/wife team I know sells; khai-jiaao (ไข่เจียว) the thai omelets with condensed milk, ground pork, chili, onions, tomatoes & long beans mixed in. They get 35 FLATS of eggs delivered every morning; (one flat = 30 eggs so 1050 eggs). They charge 20 baht for a two egg omelet with rice, up last year when they charged 15baht an omelet. I asked why and he said it was the increase in cooking oil that caused the increase in price.

Even doing the basic math you can see it works out to close to 10,000 baht a day in gross sales (I believe their egg cost is about 2.5baht per egg or about 75baht a flat). They sell out of eggs nearly every day. They work Monday thru Friday from 5:30am until about 10:30am; or until the work crowd passes by on the way to the office. Often times the line at their stand extends way down the soi. They recently upgraded their cart to have two burners so they can cook omelets two at a time. They work hard, pay their 'space rent' to the cops etc and have been there over 9 years so far. They also have a small sit-down area too, so they can serve take-awayz and eat-inz. The husband said the first thing they do after work is go to the market, buy the produce, cut up and prepare all that's needed for the next day; as well as start cooking rice later at nite for the next mornings portions.

Just these two stories clearly demonstrate that a thai with little or no education CAN make money IF they are willing to work for it.

Obviously a good location is a key factor in the success or failure of such an endeavor, but simply traveling around where you live will show you densities of street sellers as well as foot traffic patterns, so it is NOT something the average person couldn't do. More likely it is something anyone who's ever worked in the P4P industry wouldn't do because it requires a large investment of time, a lot of effort, and actual work. Those are attributes on the whole are ones I've seen in very short supply in the workers involved in the previously mentioned trade as a whole.

As an aside;

The ไข่เจียว sellers on my soi are soo successful I even went out to the shop that custom make food carts, to see how much it would be to start up a fried omelet business with 2 or 3 portable carts. I'd locate in the various ‘tourist heavy’ areas, using thai staff to man the carts. I'd make the sign in both thai and english to attract the foreign contingent I see watching the stand, but who are too afraid to order for fear of not knowing what it is. It’s still in the planning stages but I believe once you get them up and running, inventory control, etc wouldn’t be all that difficult. Now finding a thai staff who you could trust further than you could throw them, could be the linchpin to the success or failure of an endeavor like this. As is the necessity of speaking thai fluently enough to interact and speak to your staff, but it is a doable project.

[Huey]

No matter how many ways you look at it, the position "whore" doesn't look good on a resume.

Thank you. OP use some common sense. Where ever your from do you think it would be cool there for a semi-illiterate High School drop out to put "Doggie", "Spoon", & "Sixty Nine" under previous positions held???

Seriously. Of course not.

best thing to do if your in a relationship with a girl like that is set her up with something of her own so she can be her own boss and not under someone else who would most likely have no respect for her.

[seank]

I would say Yes, as Honesty does not equal integrity in Thailand. It would hinder her life instead of help.

So I say Hide your identity, sure lots of Farangs do it when they come to Thailand.

Just says she was a Cashier on her CV.

[tommybkk]

Why would you ever mention that you was a bar girl before?

Are you an idiot? Just don't mention it!!!!

[GMoney]

Jan 2002-August 2006 Gogo Dancer, Rainbow 3 Bar, Nana Entertainment Plaza, Bangkok

Specialized in customer satisfaction. Demonstrated sales ability by leading monthly sales in lady drinks on 10 occasions and monthly sales for bar fines on 15 occasions. Reinvested profits in cosmetic upgrades and was promoted to "roper" where I increased door traffic by 30%. Led recruitment efforts by bringing in 18 workers from my village. Displayed my creative talents by helping with show choreography.

[berniefromny]

Interesting post.

Why dont you invest 10,000 baht and set her up in her own business?

Then you can see if she really wants to make something of herself or if she isn't willing to put the effort in

If she puts the effort in, get her into school part time

If she is serious she will work much harder in her own business, if she isn't losing 10,000 is not so bad for everything you learned about her

What kind of business can you start for 10,000 bht??

Food trolley business. A food trolley cost about THB7.000. My neighbour is making them.

While this is slightly off topic, it is in line with the previous posts, so please bear with me. It shows what a motivated person with little education CAN do if they set their mind to it and/or aren't afraid of hard work.

You'd be quite surprised at just how much money a well located and busy portable food stand can make in a day. Even if they only offer take-away and don't have the plastic chairs, tables, plates, silverware for sit down diners. Yes the hours are long, especially given the necessity of going to a wet-market in the morning, at home food prep, as well as standing up and selling food all day, but there IS money to be made.

Here're two examples:

There is an old guy who has a fruit stand at the front of my apartment gate next to my soi. In talking with him, I found out he's had the stand here 16 years, and works on average of 9 hours a day with only Sunday off (when he rents the cart to someone else). He doesn't need to go to the market every morning as he's bought from the same supplier long enough they deliver the fruit to his house. He cores, peels, prepares the fruit, the spices, etc before he arrives, and his block ice supplier also delivers to his home. I found out he profits between 1200-1500baht on a normal day (that's pure profit AFTER expenses). He's put 3 children thru university, and drives a relatively new Isuzu D-Max 4X4. He's there rain or shine, day after day, and he is definitely a success story as far as a fruit seller, and the soi I live on is a dead end one too so no thru traffic.

Another food seller husband/wife team I know sells; khai-jiaao (ไข่เจียว) the thai omelets with condensed milk, ground pork, chili, onions, tomatoes & long beans mixed in. They get 35 FLATS of eggs delivered every morning; (one flat = 30 eggs so 1050 eggs). They charge 20 baht for a two egg omelet with rice, up last year when they charged 15baht an omelet. I asked why and he said it was the increase in cooking oil that caused the increase in price.

Even doing the basic math you can see it works out to close to 10,000 baht a day in gross sales (I believe their egg cost is about 2.5baht per egg or about 75baht a flat). They sell out of eggs nearly every day. They work Monday thru Friday from 5:30am until about 10:30am; or until the work crowd passes by on the way to the office. Often times the line at their stand extends way down the soi. They recently upgraded their cart to have two burners so they can cook omelets two at a time. They work hard, pay their 'space rent' to the cops etc and have been there over 9 years so far. They also have a small sit-down area too, so they can serve take-awayz and eat-inz. The husband said the first thing they do after work is go to the market, buy the produce, cut up and prepare all that's needed for the next day; as well as start cooking rice later at nite for the next mornings portions.

Just these two stories clearly demonstrate that a thai with little or no education CAN make money IF they are willing to work for it.

Obviously a good location is a key factor in the success or failure of such an endeavor, but simply traveling around where you live will show you densities of street sellers as well as foot traffic patterns, so it is NOT something the average person couldn't do. More likely it is something anyone who's ever worked in the P4P industry wouldn't do because it requires a large investment of time, a lot of effort, and actual work. Those are attributes on the whole are ones I've seen in very short supply in the workers involved in the previously mentioned trade as a whole.

As an aside;

The ไข่เจียว sellers on my soi are soo successful I even went out to the shop that custom make food carts, to see how much it would be to start up a fried omelet business with 2 or 3 portable carts. I'd locate in the various 'tourist heavy' areas, using thai staff to man the carts. I'd make the sign in both thai and english to attract the foreign contingent I see watching the stand, but who are too afraid to order for fear of not knowing what it is. It's still in the planning stages but I believe once you get them up and running, inventory control, etc wouldn't be all that difficult. Now finding a thai staff who you could trust further than you could throw them, could be the linchpin to the success or failure of an endeavor like this. As is the necessity of speaking thai fluently enough to interact and speak to your staff, but it is a doable project.

can a mr torenova chime in here.

are these the exceptions or are they the norm.

alex rodiguez makes 20 million a year playing a silly game( but the majority do not, counting those who go pro but never make it to the big show!)

[GMoney]

Can one just "show up" in a tourist heavy area with a food cart?

If you get there an hour early and grab the prime corner spot then the other vendors will take no recourse? There is no one to "rent" the spot from?

[schmutzie]

I'll let the food trolley sub-thread run its own course...

To the punters who seem to suggest I suffer from lack of rational thinking, let me take the bait briefly, and explain the question as it was meant to be read:

If you're an ex-pat in Thailand and run a business that's unrelated to the sex industry, eg. restaurant, hotel or similar, and a young girl turned up applying for work, and if this girl otherwise was agreeable, likeable etc. - would you feel worry if she was to confess that she did for a brief time work as a bar girl? Would this suddenly turn her employability to zero? Would a tattoo upset you?

Inevitably, much of this depends on circumstances.

Societal convention/common sense or whatever, obviously dictates that you would not mention this fact.

[MrHammer]

They can smell a bar girl a mile off.

It seems the only folks that cannot tend to arrive here by plane.

How do 'they' know? Tattoos are a give away but what are the other tells?

The main issue is the few degrees of separation and relative cohesiveness of social groups in local society. There seems to always be someone who knows. Even for folks who are overseas for extended periods, they'll always be someone who will know that you didn't really attend whatever university or work whatever job you made up as your cover. Locally, it's even easier because we all have reunions and social groups for every single job we've had, not to mention just about each class since kindergarten. And of course, the person in question's family almost always knows, and that's another few dozen folks who probably all won't keep quiet either.

It goes the same if you were to try to keep secret the fact that you were once an electrician, used to work as a mechanic, etc. The whole system seems to be built around maintaining a hierarchy and there's not much of a way around it.

In other words" Gossip.

How do I spot a bargirl, even if she has a lot of money? It's nothing about dress or looks.

If I go past her and she is with her hubby/boyfriend, but still gives me that 'wanna f..." look, then I know she worked as a bar girl.

[fletchsmile]

I'd make three points:

1) I wouldn't refer to her past history as a BG. There's little positive going for doing so in getting her an interview. She's also trying after all to make a fresh start.

2) If anyone asks about the gaps I'd say she was "helping her family", which for many BGs is true. Particularly the type who want to make a better life for themselves and their family. That she wants another job is indicative that she does want an opportunity for a better life, rather than just money and greed

3) Employment prospects would probably be better overall working for a foreign boss, who will value her English, her relationship with a foreigner in understanding culture, and who probably will be more tolerant and less judgemental.

I like the following line which is a variation on a line from the movie Stardust:

"There are bar girls and there are girls who work in bars"

My take is your lady is one of the latter. Previously there by circumstances rather than the nature of her character. Good luck to you both!

Edited January 11, 2010 by fletchsmile

[TheWalkingMan]

...

Very few can put together a wardrobe and their choice of clothes is often with no sense of where it may or may not be appropriate...

Nail on the head. Couple of months back, I went to a wedding party near Khon Kaen. Just a simple party held in a field near the bride's home. Obviously, most of the guests were from the area and wore simple, clean clothes. However, a few in the crowd wore shiny dresses Which literally screamed, "I am a BG or an Ex-BG!" Completely inappropriate wear for the location of the party and not a clue as to why.

TheWalkingMan

[fletchsmile]

They can smell a bar girl a mile off.

It seems the only folks that cannot tend to arrive here by plane.

Sadly there are all too many Thais that think this way. Two words in particular that spring to mind when describing such Thais and their small minded views are:

1) prejudice = an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

2) bigot = a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

While often they are right and they the girl in question is a bar girl, I have seen numerous occasions from Thais as well as "know it all foreigners" who get it wrong. Sadly they are too small minded to entertain the idea they may be wrong, and simply tar them with the same brush. I've seen and heard work colleagues make this assumption, as well as I'm sad to say friends (albeit they never become good friends because of their views and attitudes) - when I actually know first hand they are wrong.

People who claim to be able to always spot a bar girl are simply ignorant and judgemental. They also lack the compassion to understand the repercussions if heaven forbid they are wrong.

I'm pretty sure I'm as good as the next person at spotting bar girls, but:

1) Who cares and what does it matter?

2) I'd rather give another human being some dignity and in particular benefit of the doubt. Hence in relation to OPs post, as a prospective employer, if an interview candidate did not raise it nor, would I and I'd give her the benefit of the doubt.

Edited January 11, 2010 by fletchsmile

[Neeranam]

They can smell a bar girl a mile off.

It seems the only folks that cannot tend to arrive here by plane.

Sadly there are all too many Thais that think this way. Two words in particular that spring to mind when describing such Thais and their small minded views are:

1) prejudice = an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

2) bigot = a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

While often they are right and they the girl in question is a bar girl, I have seen numerous occasions from Thais as well as "know it all foreigners" who get it wrong. Sadly they are two small minded to entertain the idea they may be wrong, and simply tar them with the same brush. I've seen work colleagues make this assumption, as well as I'm sad to say friends (albeit they never become good friends because of their views and attitudes), when I actually know first hand they are wrong.

People who claim to be able to always spot a bar girl are simply ignorant and judgemental. They also lack the compassion to understand the repercussions if heaven forbid they are wrong.

I'm pretty sure I'm as good as the next person at spotting bar girls, but:

1) Who cares and what does it matter

2) I'd rather give another human being some dignity and in particular benefit of the doubt. Hence in relation to OPs post, as a prospective employer, if an interview candidate did not raise it nor, would I and I'd give her the benefit of the doubt.

Good Post. Not sure if Heng is 1) or 2).

[Africanteacher]

I believe she should go ahead and tell the prospective employer the truth. If the employer is a reasonably objective person, he/she should be in a position to hire your girl.

All the best.

[Heng]

How do I spot a bargirl, even if she has a lot of money? It's nothing about dress or looks.

If I go past her and she is with her hubby/boyfriend, but still gives me that 'wanna f..." look, then I know she worked as a bar girl.

One key indicator is a fidgety lack of confidence, a perpetual fish out of water aura, it's not so different than any other person who looks out of their element: if you removed a som tam vendor or garbage recycler from their previous lives and then increased their wealth and plopped them down somewhere else in an otherwise alien enviroment, you'd get the same effect, apart from the latter not really worriying about running into former customers.

I doubt you'll find too many former sex workers still giving out 'wanna f' vibes. If anything it's an overcompensation to the opposite, for example loud ramblings in 100 word vocabulary English, German, Korean, Farsi, etc.

[Heng]

They can smell a bar girl a mile off.

It seems the only folks that cannot tend to arrive here by plane.

Sadly there are all too many Thais that think this way. Two words in particular that spring to mind when describing such Thais and their small minded views are:

1) prejudice = an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

2) bigot = a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

While often they are right and they the girl in question is a bar girl, I have seen numerous occasions from Thais as well as "know it all foreigners" who get it wrong. Sadly they are too small minded to entertain the idea they may be wrong, and simply tar them with the same brush. I've seen and heard work colleagues make this assumption, as well as I'm sad to say friends (albeit they never become good friends because of their views and attitudes) - when I actually know first hand they are wrong.

People who claim to be able to always spot a bar girl are simply ignorant and judgemental. They also lack the compassion to understand the repercussions if heaven forbid they are wrong.

I'm pretty sure I'm as good as the next person at spotting bar girls, but:

1) Who cares and what does it matter?

2) I'd rather give another human being some dignity and in particular benefit of the doubt. Hence in relation to OPs post, as a prospective employer, if an interview candidate did not raise it nor, would I and I'd give her the benefit of the doubt.

Must have touched a nerve. And where did I say that it mattered or wasn't giving any particular individual the benefit of the doubt?

[Heng]

Good Post. Not sure if Heng is 1) or 2).

First and foremost, a realist, but yes, likely both 1) and 2) as well.

[Kadafi]

Its funny when a bar girl circumstances change they then decide they want an honest job.

''You've made your bed, now lie in it''...

[joorakee]

best thing to do if your in a relationship with a girl like that is set her up with something of her own so she can be her own boss and not under someone else who would most likely have no respect for her.

There is a Japanese proverb saying that it is better to be the beak of a rooster than the rump of a bull, meaning that it is better to be an owner of a small business than an employee of a big company.

It doesn't refer only to (ex-)BGs.

[chiangmaikelly]

I was in a mall last week eating lunch at the food court. There was a Farang and a beautiful Thai women with a broker type guy looking at an empty business area. They were putting one of those places where the fish eat your feet. The woman was absolutely striking, took your breath away.

Then it clicked in. I recognized her. Yup, she was breathtaking. Who cares. Although this particular lady made a bunch of money in her previous position.

I wonder about the education thing. Does anyone have any experience with putting a BG through school? Is it worthwhile or just another scam?

[berniefromny]

I'll let the food trolley sub-thread run its own course...

To the punters who seem to suggest I suffer from lack of rational thinking, let me take the bait briefly, and explain the question as it was meant to be read:

If you're an ex-pat in Thailand and run a business that's unrelated to the sex industry, eg. restaurant, hotel or similar, and a young girl turned up applying for work, and if this girl otherwise was agreeable, likeable etc. - would you feel worry if she was to confess that she did for a brief time work as a bar girl? Would this suddenly turn her employability to zero? Would a tattoo upset you?

Inevitably, much of this depends on circumstances.

Societal convention/common sense or whatever, obviously dictates that you would not mention this fact.

bgs will ruin your business, her shady friends will show up, she wont.

99% of thai girls are not bargirls, the only reason to choose bg over non bg is coz u a naughty business owner, thinking u might get it for free.

[berniefromny]

I was in a mall last week eating lunch at the food court. There was a Farang and a beautiful Thai women with a broker type guy looking at an empty business area. They were putting one of those places where the fish eat your feet. The woman was absolutely striking, took your breath away.

Then it clicked in. I recognized her. Yup, she was breathtaking. Who cares. Although this particular lady made a bunch of money in her previous position.

I wonder about the education thing. Does anyone have any experience with putting a BG through school? Is it worthwhile or just another scam?

what is a bg going to learn in school?

THAT SHE BE BETTER OFF AS BARGIRL

THE thing bgs need is a financial education seminar run by former bgs who did good w their money. pro sports do this, black dudes from ghetto just dont go good with millions they make, they need guidance.

Edited January 12, 2010 by berniefromny

[Samuian]

Most of my customers are middle age, wealthy, wanna be hi-so Thai ladies. They can smell a bar girl a mile off and I couldn't take the risk of losing their custom so would have to pass.

If I had a bar or a restaurant catering for tourists it probably wouldn't bother me but it would be hard to get past the wife.

" wealthy, wanna be hi-so Thai ladies. They can smell a bar girl a mile off "

is the one who owns/or owned the golf course on hawaii between them or the one, member of parliament

with her "Massage Parlours" and (clear throat) how many of them are professional "Mia Noi's".......? I hope not!

and remember "He who is without sin, may throw the first stone...!"

I would give even a convict, a non-Caucasian, an Inuit, a martian a chance!

Edited January 12, 2010 by Samuian

[Gippy]

Most of my customers are middle age, wealthy, wanna be hi-so Thai ladies. They can smell a bar girl a mile off and I couldn't take the risk of losing their custom so would have to pass.

If I had a bar or a restaurant catering for tourists it probably wouldn't bother me but it would be hard to get past the wife.

" wealthy, wanna be hi-so Thai ladies. They can smell a bar girl a mile off "

is the one who owns/or owned the golf course on hawaii between them or the one, member of parliament

with her "Massage Parlours" and (clear throat) how many of them are professional "Mia Noi's".......? I hope not!

OK, so one of them runs a 'massage parlour' above her restaurant. Even so she expects to be served by somebody dressed respectfully and who speaks very politely, not something that ex bargirls are particularly well known for. We had to let one staff member go last year because even after several warnings she was not polite enough to the customers and a few of them mentioned it to us. It's harsh but who can afford to lose customers that spend a couple of thousand baht every week or two?

I wish the OP the best of luck. Get your girl a new wardrobe, cover up the tattoo and help her get started with her little business. If we she really wants to change then working on her own food or clothes stand for 12 hours a day will really test that resolve.

[mmushr00m]

Hide the truth. Do not lie but do not mention it either.

If she was a BG for only a short while, it will be easy to gloss it over. If for a longer time then you will have to be more creative.

I see a lot of post saying it does not matter ...<deleted>!!

It matters, live in the real world. People in general are judgemental and bigoted. Look at this forum, look at all the dont trust a Thai threads, the you're a sucka for faling for a thai girl, thai girl = scammers etc.

Dont say anything. Even if the owner may not care but the staff will. There will be gossip and rumours, the work environment will be poisonous. They (entire company) will be watching how she conducts herself and everything she does will be judged and condemned!!!. If she does well and is handed more responsibility the gossip will be she f@cked the owner to get it.

That is reality, that is the world we all live in.

Bury the skeletons in the basement!!!

Edited January 12, 2010 by mmushr00m

[eek]

Its funny when a bar girl circumstances change they then decide they want an honest job.

''You've made your bed, now lie in it''...

..and without knowing, nor having any considerations as to why a girl may have become a bg in the first place, (not that that really matters though..as everyone is entitled to change turn their lives around in any way they please), you condemn that they shouldnt be able to break away if they wish? Are you actually serious?

[Unfaithful]

About a year ago, I took Sammi Noi out of the bar-boy scene he entered as a teenager.Age 24 now, with no publishable work history.He started as a waiter in a local Thai restaurant, tho his Angrit is good.I doubt they asked where he had been all these years.Maybe he lied.

[mca]

a martian

My one and only business venture was trying to open a pub on Mars. Complete failure. I closed after 6 months. There simply wasn't enough atmosphere.

[MrHammer]

How do I spot a bargirl, even if she has a lot of money? It's nothing about dress or looks.

If I go past her and she is with her hubby/boyfriend, but still gives me that 'wanna f..." look, then I know she worked as a bar girl.

One key indicator is a fidgety lack of confidence, a perpetual fish out of water aura, it's not so different than any other person who looks out of their element: if you removed a som tam vendor or garbage recycler from their previous lives and then increased their wealth and plopped them down somewhere else in an otherwise alien enviroment, you'd get the same effect, apart from the latter not really worriying about running into former customers.

I doubt you'll find too many former sex workers still giving out 'wanna f' vibes. If anything it's an overcompensation to the opposite, for example loud ramblings in 100 word vocabulary English, German, Korean, Farsi, etc.

So, all this time, these girls just thought I was so handsome that they couldn't stop looking while hand in hand with their husband. That's ok with me too. Actually that's even better, I think I will work at my "slip business card unseen" routine.

Wealth is an interesting thing. I honestly think it brings more misery to get undeserved wealth than good. The journey you have to make personally to get to a position in which the world deems you worthy of it's money, isn't something you can shortcut. But of course, that may be a little difficult to explain to people who have had to struggle to get food on the table.