Act Now To Stop Bangkok Sinking, Urge Scientists

[Jingthing]

Al Gore would be more convincing if he walked the talk.

http://www.dakotavoice.com/2008/03/does-al...-that-he-talks/

Show me someone who isn't a hypocrite and I'll bet you he isn't a human being. Doesn't mean jack about whether the science he is talking about is happening or not. Completely irrelevant, in fact.

[dumball]

It was said many years ago that scientists were people who were learning more and more about less and less until they will know every thing about nothing . they have already split the atom , what more can one say ?

[Ijustwannateach]

Let's try to keep this thread on the more specific topic of Bangkok and the surrounding provinces. There are plenty of other threads for whistling in the dark about global warming; the subsidence of Bangkok is a real, demonstrated, and much shorter-term phenomenon- involving, as the OP mentions, geological as well as oceanographic factors.

[RickBradford]

^^

Exactly.

Subsidence of 2-5cm per year is far quicker than even the most extreme global warming wackos believe that sea-level will rise, so this is a real problem which needs to be gradually addressed as it happens.

I expect Bangkok will react the way other low-lying cities have done, with embankments and dykes (it already has the pumps), perhaps abandonment of some high-risk low-value areas (Klong Toie, perhaps). Nobody can possibly countenance abandoning the city -- it's too valuable.

Are there any contour maps of Bangkok, or is the place basically flat all over?

[Bottlerocket]

“For decades we have known that the city was sinking because of sediment compression, but recent research has shown that the crust of the earth itself is also depressing here, caused by tectonic events that are totally outside our control. It is a combination of factors,” said Anond Snidvongs, the Southeast Asia regional research director for START (global change System for Analysis, Research and Training, a multi-national NGO).

When they make a statement like that it's difficult to attribute flooding to anything but this. Climate change is a scaremongering tactic of incrementalism to bring about the next stage toward global governance.

[Reasonableman]

More people (the Bangkok crowd will have to go somewhere, right?), traffic jams, environmental degradation---are you sure you folk want all that?

Isn't it good? Chiang Mai will be the next capital city of Thailand

[Reasonableman]

It's a Martian conspiracy to take over the world. Makes about the same sense as this inanity.

"For decades we have known that the city was sinking because of sediment compression, but recent research has shown that the crust of the earth itself is also depressing here, caused by tectonic events that are totally outside our control. It is a combination of factors," said Anond Snidvongs, the Southeast Asia regional research director for START (global change System for Analysis, Research and Training, a multi-national NGO).

When they make a statement like that it's difficult to attribute flooding to anything but this. Climate change is a scaremongering tactic of incrementalism to bring about the next stage toward global governance.

[way2muchcoffee]

A lot of people don't accept the theories of Darwin, even now. Note there is a remarkable overlap of those anti-scientific types with the global warming skeptics. Why do you think?

Jingthing, if you can bear to open this link you will find a very long list of your "anti-scientific types".

Only problem is that they are eminent scientists.

Your link has the following homepage: http://www.assassinationscience.com/

Other articles on the site:

1) Top Ten Reasons Man Did Not Go to the Moon

2) Did Stanley Kubrik Fake the Moon Landing

3) On the Record: The Controlled Demolition of WTC

4) Expert Speaks Out on Death of JFK

5) 911 Conspiracy: The Scamming of America

Truly a website you can trust.

[Samuian]

haven't studied the whole thread yet, but one underlying, irrefutable fact is that much of today's, modern Bangkok has been build in a rush of cheap money, so called "investment" and much money has been made in disregard of what this city is being build on.

I recall very well that years ago there was a call to stop all the "illegal" wells, pumping water out of the ground.

Just imagine the amounts!

As Bangkok "sit's" on mudflats of the Chao Praya basin, it's underground is basically silt, something between Sand and Clay , water pumped out makes the silt turn more or less into rather unstable dust.... go and figure!

Read more here:

more here:

Beside this I simply can't imagine that people will sit hands in their laps and watch this remarkable City simply to sink into desuetude...

Manila, Mumbai, Sydney, Melbourne, Hongkong, Hamburg, Rotterdam, London, NY.... the Seychelles, Lakschadwipa, Kolkatta... a szenario which will keep filling books, cinemas and will make many, many people rich - playing with the old wrath of human primal fear of non-existance!

Venice is already flooded almost every year, will it be the first victim of the Age of Aquarius?

Edited January 14, 2010 by Samuian

[btunes]

will the flood affect the skytrain?............

[TAWP]

Jesus christ, can you climate change-nuts take your BS over to the appropriate thread and stop hijacking this one?

[Reasonableman]

Ummm, errrr, what is the topic again??

Jesus christ, can you climate change-nuts take your BS over to the appropriate thread and stop hijacking this one?

[bkkjames]

Jesus christ, can you climate change-nuts take your BS over to the appropriate thread and stop hijacking this one?

Whether Mexican food or climate change, some posters always try to make it a US story for some reason Tawp.

[teatree]

It's a Martian conspiracy to take over the world. Makes about the same sense as this inanity.

"For decades we have known that the city was sinking because of sediment compression, but recent research has shown that the crust of the earth itself is also depressing here, caused by tectonic events that are totally outside our control. It is a combination of factors," said Anond Snidvongs, the Southeast Asia regional research director for START (global change System for Analysis, Research and Training, a multi-national NGO).

When they make a statement like that it's difficult to attribute flooding to anything but this. Climate change is a scaremongering tactic of incrementalism to bring about the next stage toward global governance.

Its all there, hidden in plain view.

The Secretary General of the UN, Ban Ki Moon, wrote an article for the NY times in which he said "A deal must include an equitable global governance structure", referring of course to the latest global warming summit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/26/opinion/26iht-edban.html

In the Copenhagen Treaty it actually states that a new entity is to be created with its first of three purposes being government. It's there in the treaty, the very treaty that thankfully did not pass in Copenhagen.

But hey, perhaps Mr Moon and his colleagues at the UN are all a bunch of tin foil hat wearing kooks.

[bkkjames]

deja vu or am I seeing the same thing again in the topic in General?

Must be my eyes.

[churchill]

This will not help added to the other factors

"A major Antarctic glacier has passed its tipping point, according to a new modelling study. After losing increasing amounts of ice over the past decades, it is poised to collapse in a catastrophe that could raise global sea levels by 24 centimetres."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1838...ref=online-news

[Jingthing]

No worries. The skeptics don't believe in modeling and projections. For them to believe, the thing has to collapse on them personally.

[bkkjames]

This will not help added to the other factors

"A major Antarctic glacier has passed its tipping point, according to a new modelling study. After losing increasing amounts of ice over the past decades, it is poised to collapse in a catastrophe that could raise global sea levels by 24 centimetres."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1838...ref=online-news

I always thought that when something freezes it has more volume due to expansion? If the case, would the sea level not drop because of this

Guess I will ask for a refund on my elementary level uni education.

[RickBradford]

The skeptics don't believe in modeling and projections

Quite right.

As Douglas Hoffman points out:

"Valid predictions of climate changes of these magnitudes simply cannot be accurately calculated. This is not a mater of opinion, it is a statement of fact based in mathematical analysis of climate models by multiple scholars. To base the future of the world's economy and possibly the course of human civilization on climate model predictions is insanity."

We in the skeptical community are rational people and neither insane nor drooling true-believers in the new superstition that is “man-made global warming".

So we are suspicious of replacing the basic scientific tenets of observation and measurement with computer models, especially when those models are built with "fudge" factors by confirmed fraudsters like Phil Jones and Michael Mann.

Edited January 14, 2010 by RickBradford

[Jingthing]

We in the skeptical community are rational people

Some are. Some aren't. Many just don't want to accept man made climate change because doing anything about it threatens their quality of life/wallet with no short term benefits, maybe none for them personally in their lifetime.

You know there does exist an OBJECTIVE reality about this. The truth exists out there in what is actually happening and will happen if we don't change our behavior, whatever humans argue about.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Jingthing

[RickBradford]

Many just don't want to accept man made climate change because doing anything about it threatens their quality of life/wallet with no short term benefits, maybe none for them personally in their lifetime.

And many don't want to "accept" man-made climate change because we know it is a fairy tale for scaring the weak-minded, incoherent nonsense peddled in pursuit of a political agenda, which is causing genuine damage to efforts to improve humanity's environmental record.

[Jingthing]

Many just don't want to accept man made climate change because doing anything about it threatens their quality of life/wallet with no short term benefits, maybe none for them personally in their lifetime.

And many don't want to "accept" man-made climate change because we know it is a fairy tale for scaring the weak-minded, incoherent nonsense peddled in pursuit of a political agenda, which is causing genuine damage to efforts to improve humanity's environmental record.

Of course politics comes into play with ALL human debate. Again, that doesn't change the objective scientific reality. I am not saying either side is going to be proved 100 percent correct, of course. I am saying those that ignore the conclusions of the overwhelmingly majority of competent scientists are playing Russian roulette with their children and future generations.

Modern science is the best we have, and often, it is very good. You would trust a chest x-ray that says you have TB and seek treatment, yes? Better get more opinions. 9 out of 10 say TB. So would you be skeptical and walk away without treatment because of the one dissenter?

Edited January 14, 2010 by Jingthing

[JR Texas]

deja vu or am I seeing the same thing again in the topic in General?

Must be my eyes.

What you are seeing is the same group of "people" attempting to hijack yet another thread that touches on global warming/climate change.

They have been systematically doing this over and over again...........trying to turn these topics to a "is global warming real or not" debate.

The end result is that the topic is not discussed.

It might help to stay on topic and ignore them.

I assure you, from a lot of past experience with them, they have nothing to say.

If they want to persist posting nonsense, they should start a thread: Is Global Warming Real or Not?

Then allow them to talk to each other until they die of exhaustion.

[RickBradford]

You would trust a chest x-ray that says you have TB and seek treatment, yes? Better get more opinions. 9 out of 10 say TB. So would you be skeptical and walk away without treatment because of the one dissenter?

What does tuberculosis have to do with Bangkok sinking?

As JR advises, try to stay on-topic, or at least within shouting distance of it....

[Jingthing]

You would trust a chest x-ray that says you have TB and seek treatment, yes? Better get more opinions. 9 out of 10 say TB. So would you be skeptical and walk away without treatment because of the one dissenter?

What does tuberculosis have to do with Bangkok sinking?

As JR advises, try to stay on-topic, or at least within shouting distance of it....

Aha. I guess the question cut too close to the bone.

Its about how modern people for the most part DO believe the majority opinion of mainstream scientists when it helps them in the here and now, and they are usually quite right to do so. Note that in the TB case listening to mainstream science has the short term effect of saving the specific person's health/life so of course they usually listen, believe, and take action. There is no selfish benefit in being a so called skeptic. In the case of man made climate change, if we are adults, the benefits of working to prevent it will likely NOT have much of an effect on our lives. Its mostly more about the children and future generations. Thus, there is a big selfish benefit in being a so called skeptic. Sorry if you can't see the connection now.

Bangkok sinking, if it happens by 2030 as some project, of course will have an effect on many adults here. But with Bangkok sinking there are multiple factors in addition to man made climate change.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Jingthing

[RickBradford]

Aha. I guess the question cut too close to the bone.

No, the question was entirely irrelevant.

People trust chest X-rays because they have consistently proved over a long period of time to be effective in terms of prediction and hence prevention.

That is where observation and repeated experimentation harden into accepted science. It is called the scientific method.

Hysterical man-made global warming theories have predicted nothing that has been observed to be true, merely a handful of things which have proved to be false.

Chest X-rays have saved or improved millions of lives; in pursuit of infantile global warming nonsense, billions of dollars have been and are being squandered; millions of lives have been and are being impoverished.

Sorry if you can't see the distinction now.

Edited January 14, 2010 by RickBradford

[Jingthing]

I accept the science on x-rays is more time tested than the science behind man made climate change. That doesn't mean the latter is worthless either. The stakes on the latter are much greater. Our planet and species vs. one person.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Jingthing

[RickBradford]

Our planet and species vs. one person

That is silly alarmist nonsense and you know it.

[way2muchcoffee]

This will not help added to the other factors

"A major Antarctic glacier has passed its tipping point, according to a new modelling study. After losing increasing amounts of ice over the past decades, it is poised to collapse in a catastrophe that could raise global sea levels by 24 centimetres."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1838...ref=online-news

I always thought that when something freezes it has more volume due to expansion? If the case, would the sea level not drop because of this

Guess I will ask for a refund on my elementary level uni education.

The glaciers in antarctica are sitting on a continent. They don't effect the sea level until they melt and the water flows into the sea, or until the break off and fall or move into the sea. I guess you had better ask for that refund after all.

Edited January 14, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Jingthing]

Our planet and species vs. one person

That is silly alarmist nonsense and you know it.

It is alarming. I wasn't suggesting that the planet is likely to become inhabitable due to runaway man made climate change in the lifetimes of today's adults. So we're off the hook. Let's party.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Jingthing