Thailand Really Needs Foreign Teachers?says Who?

[FARAT]

Topic of member Wangsuda is amazing.This is an excellent topic. It has some 147 comments. It's very impressive. Please read it.

We all should know where we are. That makes Wangsuda's topic valuable. We all should know what we are here or what do we think we are doing here and why.

This link inspired me to open this topic.

First of all, to say that I like this country so please don't let me be misunderstood. Giving hope for better future to all of these kids makes me feel happy. Same time, I will not be mute or blind about anything what I see(or experience) as wrong. With all respect, I will open my mouth. I know Thai custom that they don't like to be criticized. What I am talking about is my feel for justice.]

can understand what makes one of moderators, to take the nick name "ijustwannateach". Perfectly match to all of this chaos in educational system in Thailand. Their system is more then ready to be reorganized. Before is too late for children.

Wangsuda was talking about the crime, which has done. Any breaking the Law is crime, in my opinion.

Contracts are full of wholes (in Law meaning), full of demanding, restrictions. Almost looks like slavery. Plenty of ridiculous prohibitions, requests. Those kinds of Contracts we are accepting. Therefore, all become like "you asked for it". Whatever happens later.

As by the way, I remember one night in Saraburi Province. We had hilarious time, reading our contracts. There were 7 friends: 4 native speakers, 3 non native speakers. Every single Contract was, in some parts, for laugh.]

To make the long story short, if you try to comment or to negotiate about some clauses in Contract, (manner in your country, any business), the only one negotiation will be opened and it's about your expected salary. I still don't understand why talk about salary is more important then talk about our backgrounds, qualification so that will be the first thing they will talk about. Money! Both sides know the rates of salaries but Thais will initiate talk about it. It's embarrassing.

Usual rates are:

Native speakers will have 30K up

Non native speakers not more then 30K( Caucasians)

Philippine and other teachers not more then 25K (coloured)

I apology about this word "coloured". I am far away to be rude to any one. I am raised by parents to treat equally all people, education level, colour of skin, status in society...etc but this is REALITY here. That's discrimination.

Long time ago, I asked my Head of Department about this, so called, rates.

"Don't you think it's discriminating?". I used that word and it was in my early beginning about learning "Thai style". So, I didn't know I shouldn't ask here anything what's on my mind.

The answer shocked me. The head of Department said: " Oh, don't worry. It's more then a good money in their country."( Philippines) ]

I was speechless. That was my early beginning, I knew nothing much about discrimination here. [

As I was sitting on the needles, I couldn't be mute so, I asked her:" It means I will be paid according to the standards and norms, for teaching position, in my country, right?"

Now, it was her turn to be speechless.

To back to the main point: in contracting, might happen to you that you will not be paid for the last month of your Contract. No explanation.

Most of schools are making Contracts on 11 months, to escape to pay one month. That is common. So, if you made a Contract from 1^st May 2010 your contract will expire 31^st March 2011. That way you are short one month ( April). But that's not the end. They will try to make a clause that October (midterm) will not be paid, as it is holiday (that will be an explanation). So, it means you will work, have money, just 10 months, yearly level.

If you escaped this trick about October and you think you was clever in negotiation, so they put the clause October will be paid, surprise wait for you later so, they will cancel Contract on 30^th September. No explanation.

Deceiving, breaching Contracts, unfairness, unjust conditions in Contracts…etc. That is style. Their Contracts don't follow Labour Law. In Contracts, you can find no any word about your RIGHTS, according to Thai Labour Law.(e.g. days of leave, paid – of course). Same case is with days of sick leave.

Some people here said about help from Labour Offices. I don't think there is any help. As far as I know, there are no people(sometimes no any one) who could speak English. Surprisingly, people who are working with foreigners – can't speak English. Even more, there will be said to you(if you have translator you could trust), that you are not their case, they are not in jurisdiction…etc. By Thai Labour Law, all Contracts longer then 8 months are in their jurisdiction.(or it is 6 months?)

The money was stolen from my friend. School didn't want to pay to her for her last month by Contract. She tried to complain to Educational Office and they received documents but they never make anything. Later, she tried in Labour Office but she was refused as told above.

The only way we have is to hire some good lawyer. It is expensive in money and time.

This is all about things which happened, what might happen to any of us.

My question is who do we think we are here?

Are we respected for doing well to these kids? According to all what's going on about contracting, we are not welcome here, at all. They just stand us here. Thai custom is to follow the orders from higher levels so that is why they just stand us here. For most of them, we are just pain in the ass. You will hear that they blame us they have so low salaries. As we are main part of budget, taking biggest part of budget, so not enough money rest for their higher salaries. Public secret is that Government will refund some money to every school for hire foreign teacher. So, this story doesn't hold water at all.

They(majority of Thai teachers) will compare your and their salary, they will cry on your shoulder about their Government don't respect them as well. They will tell you a story about how many years they prepared to be a teachers but you just jumped here and get so "high" salary. Yes, high in compare to average salaries in Thailand but ot enough for our way of life we had in our countries.

Between the lines, it means as you are much less qualified but having higher salary. Of course, they will not mention true that around 40% of English teachers(Thais) are incompetent about listening and speaking skill. so, THAT is rerason they hold to grammar as way to hide their incompetence about teaching English.

They don't have that true on their minds, as main reason why Thai Kingdom called foreigners to help. Try to say this to any of them to think about, so you will be dead meat. They dislike losing the face. If you make that in public, even you can stand behind your words, having proof-you will get the enemy forever!

It is custom. The custom is also among the children. They are afraid to show they can not speak, say something correctly, so they will cause other kids to laugh to them. So, they rather will not open mouth at all. This is your first challenge in teaching. To make them feel free to make mistake without fear of laugh.

How much we are respected here, as teachers? Some of them will not say to you good morning, even. When I asked why is that so, it was said to me that is because Thais are shy to speak English-in fear they might make mistake(also custom here). That doesn't hold water for me as ALL Thais CAN say just hello- if they don't know to speak English. In my opinion, it was INTOLERANCE, ignoring. Sometimes, children will not salute to you, at all. Some will turn heads away. Land of smile i guess?

Now, here are 4 of us, foreign teachers. We weren't invited to the celebration of Teacher's Day ceremony. That also tells how much we are respected or accepted.

Our marks contribute in just 30% of general score. The rest, 70% belongs to Thai English teacher. So, what we are talking about? Our contribution should to be at least 50%. This is because we are more competent then majority of Thai English teachers. No doubt.

Were you invited to any of their weekly or monthly academy staff meetings in your Departments? I think not. Were you asked how you think to improve knowledge about English? I think not.

I prepared my student of M2 level for telling story, regional competition. Among of 19 schools she took the second place. I gave a story, trained that girl as well. It was hard work. I had an assistant, young Thai teacher. She is very good person. She is coming from middle class Thai family. I enjoyed at work, during my afternoons and weekends. After that competition, all school was excited. All forget about my contribution in success. It never happened before. School is small, in village but important, big one. My assistant was ashamed because of that so, she gave me framed picture from competition. No any thanks from my Head of Department, Director. They made a dinner celebrating success and I was not invited. Almost 4 years I am listening myths about how much teachers are respected in this society. Maybe it is true but only for Thai teachers. Not for farangs. We are not accepted, welcome here in our schools, even we are good with children. It is out of the questions.

It means nothing. Your shirt must to be in your pants, you have to have a yellow shirt every Monday, traditional suit every Wednesday, you can not leave the place of work before end of shift(even you have no classes), to be at the gate in the morning and afternoon, you can not smoke(even you hide yourself from children sight), that is what is for you but when Thais do-don't compare yourself with what you saw THEY do. The answer(s) will be

1.That one is not good teacher, or even worse

2.We are paying you.

So, come to teach…the choice is all yours.

Have just one thing on your minds this IS LOS but just and only when you are leaving your money here. In case you are taking money-no smile for you. Doesn't matter you are popular here, popular among the people or children at school.

My friend Nigel is back to England. My friend Brad is back to England. Charlie went to Japan. Engine is in S. Korea. Morgan is going back to US. John is in Saudi Arabia. This is reality about what majority of them are doing to us. Not all, not all.

[paulchiangmai]

Very interesting story FARAT and certainly room for thought. A little story of my own concerning a regional competition. I was teaching some of the teachers at a large Chiang Rai college a few years back when I was asked if I would assist two students with their English assignment in a competition to be held in Chiang Mai University, this competition I understand is held yearly between students from the fourteen most northerly provinces of Thailand, two students per province. The theme was written by the head English teacher at the college and English wise left a lot to be desired, with his permission I rewrote it and set about teaching these two young ladies to memorise the speach and present it, a lot of hard work as you say FARAT but mostly a lot of hard work from the students. I spent endless hours coaching them and have them give their talk on my video camera to get them some confidence, I had no doubt in my mind that one of these young ladies would win, she was that good. The day before the competition the young ladies had to get up before the assembled college students and present their talk, first of all I was introduced as their mentor as Mr Porn, [most Thais can not get their tongue around the name Paul so it comes out as Porn] one just sailed through flawlessly, the second girl could not even get the first word out, her mind was just a complete blank. The next day the competition took place, I remained in Chiang Rai. That evening I received an e.mail from the head English teacher telling me that the two girls came in first and second. I was so proud and happy for those two young ladies, did I get any recognition or even thanks after the event? No. My satisfaction came in what I knew those girls had acheived with my help.

[FARAT]

Very interesting story FARAT and certainly room for thought. A little story of my own concerning a regional competition. I was teaching some of the teachers at a large Chiang Rai college a few years back when I was asked if I would assist two students with their English assignment in a competition to be held in Chiang Mai University, this competition I understand is held yearly between students from the fourteen most northerly provinces of Thailand, two students per province. The theme was written by the head English teacher at the college and English wise left a lot to be desired, with his permission I rewrote it and set about teaching these two young ladies to memorise the speach and present it, a lot of hard work as you say FARAT but mostly a lot of hard work from the students. I spent endless hours coaching them and have them give their talk on my video camera to get them some confidence, I had no doubt in my mind that one of these young ladies would win, she was that good. The day before the competition the young ladies had to get up before the assembled college students and present their talk, first of all I was introduced as their mentor as Mr Porn, [most Thais can not get their tongue around the name Paul so it comes out as Porn] one just sailed through flawlessly, the second girl could not even get the first word out, her mind was just a complete blank. The next day the competition took place, I remained in Chiang Rai. That evening I received an e.mail from the head English teacher telling me that the two girls came in first and second. I was so proud and happy for those two young ladies, did I get any recognition or even thanks after the event? No. My satisfaction came in what I knew those girls had acheived with my help.

Thanks Paul.

Obviously, you are dedicated to your work. That makes a difference. That makes two of us. I was not surprised what happened later, after that Contest. In that time I was experienced as well, about Thai manners so it was easy to predict reactions. My point was that we(newcomers) should KNOW what to expect and who we are here. Westerners have right to know. This is what is REALLY going on, so all is up to you(in case you want to come to teach here). When you KNOW what might happens to you-will be easier you make a choice. The right one, in life.

However, my satisfaction was a dinner with the PARENTS of that girl. They made it for me, in their house. Her father is working for a big Dannish company here and he wanted see me. That was good enough for me.

After that, the number of my private students became more then good(no time for holidays at all) so i could give some classes to the friends of mine(they didn't have much of and i couldn't stand the presure).

I will admit that i was disappointed. Who wouldn't?

Anyway, I was happy because that girl was HUNGRY of knowledge. She was so passionate about that play, performance so it was my pure happiness to help to her in developing her talent both English and plays.

Generally speaking, that story is nice. I am in touch with that my assistent. I was at her wedding. She is in bigger town and she is better abd better at English. I am in touch with that my student via sms.

So, the pleasure is mine. I have no reason to regreat as i did it from my heart but i just needed to say about Thai ADULTS(majority of teachers here),

Children are wonderefull here and they DESERVE better future and it's possible to make by improving their English. That is why still i am here, don't want to give up-despite to all of problems.

Tired as a dog but still happy in teaching.

Regards

F.

[tonititan]

How much we are respected here, as teachers?

It sounds like you don't have a lot of respect for the Thai teachers:

You will hear that they blame us they have so low salaries.

They(majority of Thai teachers) will compare your and their salary, they will cry on your shoulder about their Government don't respect them as well. They will tell you a story about how many years they prepared to be a teachers but you just jumped here and get so "high" salary. Yes, high in compare to average salaries in Thailand but ot enough for our way of life we had in our countries.

Of course, they will not mention true that around 40% of English teachers(Thais) are incompetent about listening and speaking skill. so, THAT is rerason they hold to grammar as way to hide their incompetence about teaching English.

Some of them will not say to you good morning, even. When I asked why is that so, it was said to me that is because Thais are shy to speak English-in fear they might make mistake(also custom here). That doesn't hold water for me as ALL Thais CAN say just hello- if they don't know to speak English. In my opinion, it was INTOLERANCE, ignoring.

I don't know how anyone can expect to get respect from others when the feeling is not mutual. Maybe you can try being more respectful of the Thai teachers, their educational credentials, and their experience instead of of pointing out their ignorance and intolerance. That might help.

Edited January 22, 2010 by tonititan

[tonititan]

It means nothing. Your shirt must to be in your pants, you have to have a yellow shirt every Monday, traditional suit every Wednesday, you can not leave the place of work before end of shift(even you have no classes), to be at the gate in the morning and afternoon, you can not smoke(even you hide yourself from children sight), that is what is for you but when Thais do-don't compare yourself with what you saw THEY do. The answer(s) will be

1.That one is not good teacher, or even worse

2.We are paying you.

Have you ever worked in a school in any country?!? These practices seem pretty standard, and nothing to complain about. I have always had to dress professionally (according to the standards of that school, city, and country), be visible before/after school to help provide supervision, stay for the entire school day even if I'm finished teaching, and refrain from smoking or drinking on campus.

However, my satisfaction was a dinner with the PARENTS of that girl. They made it for me, in their house. Her father is working for a big Dannish company here and he wanted see me. That was good enough for me.

That's more recognition than many teachers get. It's part of being a teacher in almost any country.

Anyway, I was happy because that girl was HUNGRY of knowledge. She was so passionate about that play, performance so it was my pure happiness to help to her in developing her talent both English and plays.

We all know that it's a joy to teach a student who is motivated, hungry for knowledge, and has strong aptitude for learning. However, I think it's important to remember that a big part of being a good teacher is not just helping those elite few who already excel, but also finding a way to motivate and teach the other students - the ones who may not look like they want to learn, those who struggle, those who are "difficult" to teach.

[Daren]

How is this thread NOT a troll? The grammar and spelling in the OP, and subsequent posts by said OP, are simply atrocious.

/facepalm

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

Good stream of consciousness writing, but it's obvious you've never set foot in a Thai classroom.

[cognos]

FARAT, How on earth can you claim to be an English teacher, when your writing skills are so below par? Sir, your writing is abysmal, even if you are "drunk as a skunk". I am a special needs teacher in Canada, and could not begin to count how many typos and errors you have in your writing "skills". It is almost beyond belief that you could impart any semblance of professionalism with regards to the Thai students you profess to teach English to.

signed: Oy..

[cognos]

FARAT,

How on earth can you claim to be an English teacher, when your writing

skills are like that? Sir, with all due respect, your writing is somewhat abysmal, even if you were

"drunk as a skunk" whilst writing your post. I am a special needs teacher in Canada, and could

not begin to count how many typos and errors you have in your writing.

The students in the program that I work in need psychological assessments ( with an "IQ" below 70 ) to be eligible for assistance. Not to judge your English writing skills from a few examples ( you may be doing this on purpose, for a laugh ), however a few of the students in the program display far superior writing skills to those you submitted, and there is NO WAY on God's green earth their level of English proficiency would suffice to be able to teach English in a foreign country like Thailand. It is almost beyond belief that you could impart any semblance of professionalism with regards to the Thai students you profess to teach English to.

The content of your diatribe, however, was impressive to say the least. It should be required reading for folks like my friend ( a grade 12 dropout ) who pines to teach English in LOS.

signed: it was a great read though, khop khun mak khrap

[BlackArtemis]

I had a very different experience and i worked at a Government school. hel_l, I got more paid days off than the private schools. (2.5 months+ total) Sure I had to train kids for competitions etc, but that's the norm.

I am going to assume the post is legit and just say that if you are treated like that, it's time to find a new school. If you continualy get treated like that at each new job, it's time to do some self reflection.

[nakachalet]

CONGOS....

i am much impressed and even more delighted to learn that.... that you are special ed teacher.... is that what teachers of special needs student are called in canada?

to be able to work and teach successfully with students with special needs.... takes more than a college degree or several university degrees....

i hold you and the rest of the teachers with the highest esteem and respect, sir....

it takes more than patient of the saint to go in and assist the students day in and day out.... year in and year out....

my phone is in my pm.... come on down and we'll buy you and yours a real authentic thai dinner.... without the thai dancing stuff though.... LOL

FARAT, How on earth can you claim to be an English teacher, when your writing skills are so below par? Sir, your writing is abysmal, even if you are "drunk as a skunk". I am a special needs teacher in Canada, and could not begin to count how many typos and errors you have in your writing "skills". It is almost beyond belief that you could impart any semblance of professionalism with regards to the Thai students you profess to teach English to.

signed: Oy..

[cognos]

I am not better than you FARAT; I was just pointing out that it seemed surprising that you were an English teacher. I have always maintained that I would not critique someone's English, as they may be E.S.L. or whatever. As I have more faults than most on TV, I will in future refrain from commenting on anyone's English writing skills. I am sorry for "dissing" your writing.

signed: ..shouldn't throw stones from my little glass house

[Scott]

The OP is a little hard to follow and I am not sure what the topic is all about. The OP will not be returning and the thread is likely to attract the kind of attention we would rather not see in the forum.

If anyone has a compelling reason to have it re-opened, please send me a PM.

//CLOSED//

[Scott]

Per a request, this topic is re-opened. Let's please not flame. The grammar police need to exercise care in their posting. It's not written by a native speaker and no request was made for assistance in this area.

Thanks,

Scott

[thunder30101]

Not sure what the orig post is all about since it goes in so many directions but I will comment on the pay scales you mention. There is no way non-native speakers should be paid any more than thai teachers if their grammar and pronunciation is as atrocious as some of the ones I have worked with. No disrepect to them but lets be honest what is the point of paying 15-25k when a thai teacher can make the same mistakes in teaching english for a much cheaper cost ? And when you get down to it, they really dont need any of us to teach english.

[PeaceBlondie]

They need us native speakers to teach English, to an embarrassing degree. But most Thai teachers of English can't improve. Our best students might soon speak better than the Thai teachers of English. Loss of face.

[nakachalet]

scott

you are wise beyong your years.... lol

there are many many farangs who are here for only one reason and one reason only.... to help educate the less fortunate thais.... BRAVO

then there is another group of farangs who hardly surface to make their thoughts count in thaivisa....

know who this group of faranags are....?

THE YOUNG AND SPIRITED FARANG VOLUNTEERS FROM MANY DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.... COMING TO THAILAND AND LIVING IN LESS THAN DESIREABLE LIVING CONDITIONS.... TO TEACH ENGLISH LANGUAGE ....

they just do their job without ever complaining.... bless their hearts !!!!

yes, i know many of them.... and always invite them to have dinner with our family members.... most are very busy with their overwhelming schedules and work loads....

i was informed that each and everyone of them volunteers to come to thailand and pays his/her own way....

if you ever run into any of these young and selfless embassadors, pls, if you can, pamper them some....

they are the best embassadors that any country could ever send out....

[surayu]

I just want to add something i came across a few months ago, i moved out from the urban area and during a visit to a neighbour in our village i was curious about a fews sheets of paper layng around with some english grammar exercises on them, i told my wife to ask the kid if she was studing the english language at her school and the answer was that yes, they have a thai teacher of english, but she or he doesn't actually teach any english to the kids and apparently just limit her/his duties to handover photocopies of an english textbook to the students and don't expect anyone to fill the missing words or even read them, i was speechless after this explanation....and sad

[BlackArtemis]

PB: I believe we are way beyond that point. There are many situations where once students reach about P.5 they begin to see that their English is better than their Thai teachers. Granted these are students who study EP, NP, Private Tutor, have help at home, and etc. Also I want to state that there are many Thai English teachers who are proficent and even try to go out of their way to improve their English.

When i last worked, my school tried something new, they hired recent English grads instead of recent Education grads for Thai teacher positions in the EP program. There were good and bad results, but it was a HUGE shock to the entire sstem, rather encouraging really, that they went against the norm in hiring.

[Scott]

Our school has historically done this sort of thing at the Mathyom level. We have science, math and other teachers whose degrees are in those fields rather than in education. Unfortunately, like the Teacher's License for foreign teachers, they were given so long to correct the problem. Either these teachers get an education degree, or they are out.

Foreigners aren't the only ones who have to abide by the rules.

[Ijustwannateach]

^And though this may have led to a temporary boon in swelling student numbers in local education classes, in the end they could be hoist by their own petard. After all, now all these folks with have the educational credentials to make an informed stand against the BS that comes down from the self-same agencies that required the credentials!

[nakachalet]

several years ago....

i offered my FREE SERVICE substituting for those farang teachers who need a personal day off for one reason or another.... or just teach english for free to a few schools.... in spite of my formal education and advanced degrees.....

believe it or not.... no one calls back.... LOL

[stepenwolf1958]

Not sure what the orig post is all about since it goes in so many directions but I will comment on the pay scales you mention. There is no way non-native speakers should be paid any more than thai teachers if their grammar and pronunciation is as atrocious as some of the ones I have worked with. No disrepect to them but lets be honest what is the point of paying 15-25k when a thai teacher can make the same mistakes in teaching english for a much cheaper cost ? And when you get down to it, they really dont need any of us to teach english.

Mate, there are not many directions. There is just one and it is DISCRIMINATION. Or, if you would prefer to treat that as MANY DIRECTION, then i will say all of them lead to one: DISCRIMINATION.

Rates of salaries are like the OP said. Out of the question and that is obvious discrimination. Anywhere in the world. Here is just a common, "normal" thing.

Judging about decission of Thai Government to hire native and non native speakers (long time ago) is senseless and waste of time. I just can say it was not without some reason. Paying foreigners for teaching is very big part of budget in Thailand. There is also some reason to pay it. If you ask me, the reason is Thai teachers are incompetent to teach ENglish. They are perfect about grammar and spelling, no doubt, and it is well known.But that is not enough. Thais don't speak English. A few reason, including tradition, customs such as FEAR of loos face in saying incorect so to cause the laugh of listeners (you can see that among the students as well).

But the main reason is Thai teachers (subject English) can't speak or understand English. Ask any westerner teacher about it. So your comment doesn't hold the water.

Incomparable with Laos, Vietnam, China (i am not sure about Burma and Cambodia). Those countries have excellent teachers, vey much able to speak and understand English so it's the same with ordinary people there. I think, somewhere in the past, mistake was made, nobody was interested to handle hot potato tat time so here we are. Thai English teachers (60%) can not understand or speak English so that implicate situation in population. That is why any foreigner (even with not good grammar) is better English teacher then Thais so should to be paid more. Thais are not fools to waste the money. They know why they need foreigners, even with not so good grammar.

An interview with Ministry of Education in Chiang Mai Office said CLEAR why Thais need here foreign teachers. It was made last year and you could find it in Ajarn.com forums. There is an answer for your wondering why foreigners are needed and paid more then Thais.

We all know French way of speaking English. Germans also have a burdon of their own language so can not pronounce English without strange colour in voice. But their pronunciation is more accaptable and desirable (paid more also) then Thai way of speak English.

Let me say-no way you will be accepted as a teacher if your accent and pronunciation is not understandable for the Head of Department, Director and the Chairman of the Managing Board. Be sure the place of birth will help you. That happened to a few native speakers.

To conclude, THAI SOCIETY NEEDS AS AS A TEACHERS. Beacouse of reality that Thai English teachers can't (don't want to) improve English. MOST of them (60%). I saw good Thais as good English teachers but just a few.

Regards, Step

[tonititan]

Oh boy, here we go. Takers?

[stepenwolf1958]

several years ago....

i offered my FREE SERVICE substituting for those farang teachers who need a personal day off for one reason or another.... or just teach english for free to a few schools.... in spite of my formal education and advanced degrees.....

believe it or not.... no one calls back.... LOL

I am wondering why i am not surprised?

Maybe the clue is in OP words above?

[stepenwolf1958]

They need us native speakers to teach English, to an embarrassing degree. But most Thai teachers of English can't improve. Our best students might soon speak better than the Thai teachers of English. Loss of face.

PB

They don't need only you, native speakers. Not only you mate...

About Thai teachers and our students. That's already going on. I know a couple of students. Both of them are now in BKK. With one of them i am in contact.

Regards, Step

[nakachalet]

stepenwolf1958

ha ha ha....

read my lips.... LOL

by the way, have you personally done anything for public service in your life, either in thailand or in your own country....? LOL

or are you one of those sitting on the fense.... just in case....? LOL

---------

several years ago....

i offered my FREE SERVICE substituting for those farang teachers who need a personal day off for one reason or another.... or just teach english for free to a few schools.... in spite of my formal education and advanced degrees.....

believe it or not.... no one calls back.... LOL

I am wondering why i am not surprised?

Maybe the clue is in OP words above?

[phetaroi]

Some points from the original post:

"We all should know where we are...

First of all, to say that I like this country so please don't let me be misunderstood. Giving hope for better future to all of these kids makes me feel happy. Same time, I will not be mute or blind about anything what I see(or experience) as wrong. With all respect, I will open my mouth. I know Thai custom that they don't like to be criticized. What I am talking about is my feel for justice.]

... Perfectly match to all of this chaos in educational system in Thailand. Their system is more then ready to be reorganized. Before is too late for children.

...

Are we respected for doing well to these kids? According to all what's going on about contracting, we are not welcome here, at all. They just stand us here. Thai custom is to follow the orders from higher levels so that is why they just stand us here. For most of them, we are just pain in the ass.

...

Of course, they will not mention true that around 40% of English teachers (Thais) are incompetent about listening and speaking skill. so, THAT is rerason they hold to grammar as way to hide their incompetence about teaching English.

Try to say this to any of them to think about, so you will be dead meat. They dislike losing the face. If you make that in public, even you can stand behind your words, having proof-you will get the enemy forever!

...

This is your first challenge in teaching. To make them feel free to make mistake without fear of laugh.

How much we are respected here, as teachers? Some of them will not say to you good morning, even...In my opinion, it was INTOLERANCE, ignoring. Sometimes, children will not salute to you, at all. Some will turn heads away. Now, here are 4 of us, foreign teachers. We weren't invited to the celebration of Teacher's Day ceremony. That also tells how much we are respected or accepted.

Our marks contribute in just 30% of general score. The rest, 70% belongs to Thai English teacher. So, what we are talking about? Our contribution should to be at least 50%. This is because we are more competent then majority of Thai English teachers. No doubt.

Were you invited to any of their weekly or monthly academy staff meetings in your Departments? I think not. Were you asked how you think to improve knowledge about English? I think not.

I prepared my student of M2 level for telling story, regional competition. Among of 19 schools she took the second place

...

No any thanks from my Head of Department, Director. They made a dinner celebrating success and I was not invited.

...

Not for farangs. We are not accepted, welcome here in our schools, even we are good with children.

...

It means nothing. Your shirt must to be in your pants, you have to have a yellow shirt every Monday, traditional suit every Wednesday, you can not leave the place of work before end of shift(even you have no classes), to be at the gate in the morning and afternoon, you can not smoke (even you hide yourself from children sight), that is what is for you but when Thais do-don't compare yourself with what you saw THEY do....2.We are paying you.

So, come to teach…the choice is all yours.

..."

_______________________________

Wow...so many things to respond to. Where to begin?

First, yes, you should know where you are. You are in Thailand...their country...not yours. You seem to resent that they don't love you for you trying to change them. I think that's very understandable. They didn't hire you to change them or their educational system. They hired you to teach English. Period. They didn't hire you to critique the Thai educational system. They hired you to teach English.

You say that the Thai culture is to follow orders from above. In other words -- to do the job the people who pay you tell you to do. Makes some sense to me. You're not an independent contractor...you're an employee.

Now, as to how much you're respected and liked. We readers here have no idea if you are well qualified, or competent, or likable. To be honest, I'm a little surprised you're teaching English.

You say they dislike losing face. I don't really know anyone who enjoys losing face. Do you enjoy losing face?

In regard to the weight of your grades as compared to your Thai counterpart. At first glance it seems you have a good point here. Although one thing that comes to mind is that the Thai teacher may understand the goals of the program better than you do. May understand the Thai grading system better than you do. Not sure. Just a thought.

In terms of not being invited to Teachers' Day celebrations...yes, that seems petty on their part, assuming you are talking about an official celebration, rather than a private celebration. The same in regard to the dinner celebrating the contest...was that an official celebration, or a private party?

I was particularly interested in your comment about coming here to teach...that the choice is yours. As a retired American principal, each morning I ended the announcements with, "Make it a great day or not. The choice is yours." And indeed, it does come down to that. Whether you stay here and teach, or not, the choice is yours. It sounds as if you are very unhappy here. If I were that unhappy, I would go elsewhere. What are your options in regard to teaching back home (and in fact, where is home?)?

[PeaceBlondie]

Somewhere in 1,700 words of the OP, I missed the emphases on lack of respect and discrimination. That's easy to explain. We're not Thai, and not in charge.

[stepenwolf1958]

Wow...so many things to respond to. Where to begin?

First, yes, you should know where you are. You are in Thailand...their country...not yours....

It means i should (or any one else here) be mute,deaf and blind whatever they do and especialy if that affecting me directly, causing damage to me? Sorry, i disagree. I don't think so.

You seem to resent that they don't love you for you trying to change them.

Who says about loving me or not? Where? Who says that i want to change them? Where i said that?

I think that's very understandable. They didn't hire you to change them or their educational system. They hired you to teach English. Period. They didn't hire you to critique the Thai educational system.

I am not critisizing it in teachhing but i can do it here. And it's about democracy and i think everybody has right to critisize but with a proofs. Am i wrong? I am part of educational system here, i'm respecting all regulations, paying tax regularly here so i think i have right to say something about it. Or i am just decor here? Above all, my intention is good. So what's the problem?

They hired you to teach English.

You say that the Thai culture is to follow orders from above.

Yes. but don't twist my words and take out of context, as you are doing now. In other words -- to do the job the people who pay you tell you to do.

It is exactly what i am doing but your sight failed. Read my words again, please as i think you misunderstood. I hope not intentionally.I will not accept humiliation or discrimination just because you are paying me.Makes some sense to me. You're not an independent contractor...you're an employee.

Now, as to how much you're respected and liked. We readers here have no idea if you are well qualified, or competent, or likable. To be honest, I'm a little surprised you're teaching English.

Why you are surprised? As you are speaking as some wooden attorney, i suppose you should know Thai system as well. If you know it - why would you be surprised? Don't you know they have criteria for hiring? Don't you know they are strict, they are selective about hiring? Don't you know they are not stupid to take any one just like that? Don't you know we must to have teaching license from their Ministry of Education? All of those things i have and some more, which makes me be qualified. Be sure about it. Even more, i am rewarded for my results in my job here. If you are here, if you teach - you would know THE PLACE OF BIRTH DOESN'T MAKE ONES BE A GOOD TEACHER. Some more qualities are needed and i have it.

You say they dislike losing face. I don't really know anyone who enjoys losing face. Do you enjoy losing face?

I don't and i can understand you and i agree with you but when i make mistake and someone prove it -i am ready to admit my mistake and to say apology. I was talking about that as their disability to say sorry. They will not accept they made mistake because fear of loosing face. That fear disabling them to admit mistake, even if their mistake (mostly because incompetence) cause a damage to some one.

In regard to the weight of your grades as compared to your Thai counterpart. At first glance it seems you have a good point here. Although one thing that comes to mind is that the Thai teacher may understand the goals of the program better than you do. May understand the Thai grading system better than you do. Not sure. Just a thought.

Again, if you are in this profession and here, you should know. It might be they understand the GOAL of teaching English but they are not showing much results. That's the problem. And you know what? It's ridiculous if you ask me. We are invited here, hired to help but we contribute just 30% in overal scores. Sounds very much out of logic. Don't you think so?If about me, i don't need to contribute 0.1% as that is their country and system so i would mind my business but if we contribute - why that's just 30%. It's like ok, you are here but as you are not.

In terms of not being invited to Teachers' Day celebrations...yes, that seems petty on their part, assuming you are talking about an official celebration, rather than a private celebration. The same in regard to the dinner celebrating the contest...was that an official celebration, or a private party?

I assume it was official party, there was almost all school. To be clear - i am not hungry or thirsty of glory and i don't need a red carpet for me but i think i should be invited there as i am part of that success. That would be kind and polite. That assistant teacher, that competitor and i - WE are 100% of success. I forgot to say, thanks to remind me. The GIRL, competitor, was not invited there.

I was particularly interested in your comment about coming here to teach...that the choice is yours. As a retired American principal, each morning I ended the announcements with, "Make it a great day or not. The choice is yours." And indeed, it does come down to that. Whether you stay here and teach, or not, the choice is yours. It sounds as if you are very unhappy here. If I were that unhappy, I would go elsewhere. What are your options in regard to teaching back home (and in fact, where is home?)?

I wish you good luck in comming here. I wish you make some good things here for these kids. They are innocent, lovelly and they have RIGHT to have better future then youth have here right now. It would be nice. (don't say again i am trying to change their society, please, )

I will not give up. I am a fighter. I just want to teach, to give something good to these kids. I'm a father and i like kids but above all i am dedicated to the goal in my teaching.

Exactly as you said - to come here is your choice as it was mine. All i said is in wish to try to let the people know what MIGHT happens.

Regards, Step