Land Office Declaration For Thai Married To Farang.

[PMK]

I came across a reference to this in an old thread - that there is a declaration which, in the case of a Thai married to farang that bought land in the Thai's name after marriage, now has to be signed to make the purchase legal. is this correct, and if so, can someone point me to the appropriate law, both Thai and English versions?

Thanks.

[InterestedObserver]

Ministry of Interior, Ministerial Regulation, most urgent No. Mo 0710/vor 792, dated 23 March 1999.

Translation copyrighted.

Edited January 22, 2010 by InterestedObserver

[Bagwan]

I uplifted the memsahib into the landed gentry some time ago and I remember it being made clear to me at the time that I had no claim to the property whatsoever. I do not remember signing any statement confirming that I had been made aware of this law and that I understood the consequences.

I was not at the Amphur when herself went with the sellers to register the change of ownership and a very uppity woman, masquerading as the Civil Service equivalent of a Commander no less, asked where she got the money from to make the purchase. Since my good lady was in farm garb she was not believed when she stated that her husband had given her the money. The super bitch accused her of stealing the cash and although the deal went through the land documents were retained. Two days later I and my wife went to the Amphur, she dressed like a Mafia Madame and I like Her Majesty's representative in country from a Grahame Greene novel. I confronted 'the special one' and asked for her name and rank as we intended to go next door to the Police Station and register a complaint alleging defamation. I added that the information would also be handed to my lawyer who would be initiating a civil case. Quelle horror! Instant laundry problem.

The problem was sorted with the Boss Man, masquerading as a Naval Captain, as we disposed of half a bottle of his best Black Label Scotch - at 1000 in the morning! A full apology was made by 'the lofty one' and as recompense 11,000 baht was knocked of the transfer tax payable. A great result.

[torrenova]

It does make you wonder though at the logic of having to sign away any rights to the land and yet being due 50% upon divorce !

[PMK]

Can someone point me to a URL for the document in Thai and English (Mo 0710/vor 792, dated 23 March 1999)?

Once it is signed, does the wife then need my signature to sell the land?

Any caveats or suggestions arising from your own experiences would be appreciated.

[InterestedObserver]

Can someone point me to a URL for the document in Thai and English (Mo 0710/vor 792, dated 23 March 1999)?

Once it is signed, does the wife then need my signature to sell the land?

Any caveats or suggestions arising from your own experiences would be appreciated.

Link here. The basic answer to your question is NO, the wife does not need your permission to sell what is essentially her land. You would need to register a 30 year lease and/or usufruct, including a third party, on the Chanote to protect yourself. If this is a real question, then you need a real lawyer.

[Arkady]

I uplifted the memsahib into the landed gentry some time ago and I remember it being made clear to me at the time that I had no claim to the property whatsoever. I do not remember signing any statement confirming that I had been made aware of this law and that I understood the consequences.

I was not at the Amphur when herself went with the sellers to register the change of ownership and a very uppity woman, masquerading as the Civil Service equivalent of a Commander no less, asked where she got the money from to make the purchase. Since my good lady was in farm garb she was not believed when she stated that her husband had given her the money. The super bitch accused her of stealing the cash and although the deal went through the land documents were retained. Two days later I and my wife went to the Amphur, she dressed like a Mafia Madame and I like Her Majesty's representative in country from a Grahame Greene novel. I confronted 'the special one' and asked for her name and rank as we intended to go next door to the Police Station and register a complaint alleging defamation. I added that the information would also be handed to my lawyer who would be initiating a civil case. Quelle horror! Instant laundry problem.

The problem was sorted with the Boss Man, masquerading as a Naval Captain, as we disposed of half a bottle of his best Black Label Scotch - at 1000 in the morning! A full apology was made by 'the lofty one' and as recompense 11,000 baht was knocked of the transfer tax payable. A great result.

The Letter of Confirmation can only be signed by the foreign spouse in person at the Land Office, unless you are overseas in which case it can theoretically be signed in person at a Thai consulate. Since you didn't attend the Land Office yourself, both you and your Mrs are in violation of the ministerial regulations pursuant to the Land Code as a result of the non-disclosure by your wife that she is married to a foreigner and the failure of both of you to sign the Letter of Confirmation. Technically you could both be prosecuted for violation of the Land Code (an imprisonable offence) and your wife could be forced to sell the property within 180 days. This has never happened to my knowledge but who wwould want to make history when it can be avoided by signing a piece of paper.

If you can prove that you transferred the money to buy the property to your wife, you might be able to claim 50% in the case of divorce, even if you did sign the Letter of Confirmation. Since any contract between man and wife can be voided under the Civil and Commercial Code, you could argue you were placed under unfair pressure to sign away your rights to the property. This is why the Letter of Confirmation is probably only a government band aid. I am sure they have legal experts looking at ways to tighten this up, particularly in view of the Agricultural Ministry broadcasting last year that they were coming out with a bill to fix foreigners buying agricultural land, even those with Thai wives. The problem is that the concept of the Letter of Confirmation runs counter to the Civil and Commercial Code which dictates that property acquired after marriage must be counted as conjugal assets to be divided 50:50 on divorce. This can also be applied to the cash used to buy the property and any variation from the concept of conjugal property can be regarded as "against public order".

[tutsiwarrior]

I uplifted the memsahib into the landed gentry some time ago and I remember it being made clear to me at the time that I had no claim to the property whatsoever. I do not remember signing any statement confirming that I had been made aware of this law and that I understood the consequences.

I was not at the Amphur when herself went with the sellers to register the change of ownership and a very uppity woman, masquerading as the Civil Service equivalent of a Commander no less, asked where she got the money from to make the purchase. Since my good lady was in farm garb she was not believed when she stated that her husband had given her the money. The super bitch accused her of stealing the cash and although the deal went through the land documents were retained. Two days later I and my wife went to the Amphur, she dressed like a Mafia Madame and I like Her Majesty's representative in country from a Grahame Greene novel. I confronted 'the special one' and asked for her name and rank as we intended to go next door to the Police Station and register a complaint alleging defamation. I added that the information would also be handed to my lawyer who would be initiating a civil case. Quelle horror! Instant laundry problem.

The problem was sorted with the Boss Man, masquerading as a Naval Captain, as we disposed of half a bottle of his best Black Label Scotch - at 1000 in the morning! A full apology was made by 'the lofty one' and as recompense 11,000 baht was knocked of the transfer tax payable. A great result.

The Letter of Confirmation can only be signed by the foreign spouse in person at the Land Office, unless you are overseas in which case it can theoretically be signed in person at a Thai consulate. Since you didn't attend the Land Office yourself, both you and your Mrs are in violation of the ministerial regulations pursuant to the Land Code as a result of the non-disclosure by your wife that she is married to a foreigner and the failure of both of you to sign the Letter of Confirmation. Technically you could both be prosecuted for violation of the Land Code (an imprisonable offence) and your wife could be forced to sell the property within 180 days. This has never happened to my knowledge but who wwould want to make history when it can be avoided by signing a piece of paper.

If you can prove that you transferred the money to buy the property to your wife, you might be able to claim 50% in the case of divorce, even if you did sign the Letter of Confirmation. Since any contract between man and wife can be voided under the Civil and Commercial Code, you could argue you were placed under unfair pressure to sign away your rights to the property. This is why the Letter of Confirmation is probably only a government band aid. I am sure they have legal experts looking at ways to tighten this up, particularly in view of the Agricultural Ministry broadcasting last year that they were coming out with a bill to fix foreigners buying agricultural land, even those with Thai wives. The problem is that the concept of the Letter of Confirmation runs counter to the Civil and Commercial Code which dictates that property acquired after marriage must be counted as conjugal assets to be divided 50:50 on divorce. This can also be applied to the cash used to buy the property and any variation from the concept of conjugal property can be regarded as "against public order".

as the Letter of Confirmation is indeed a 'band-aid' implemented to address an inconsistency in the law (Land Code vs. Civil and Commercial Code) I wonder if anyone can point to the actual requirement in the Land Code or ministerial regulation for foreign spouses to sign this document...seems to me that if this is a legal requirement and not implemented on an ad hoc basis all individuals wishing to register a land purchase must be made aware of this requirement, not just those with foreign married names or with foreign spouses in tow at the local land office...

there are a number of folks here on the forum that have not signed the Letter of Confirmation for various reasons, i.e., being unaware of such requirement and the thai spouse who has retained her maiden name approaching the land office on her own to register the purchase/transfer of ownership for example...

but (sigh) TiT and I know that they can do what they want regardless of 'band-aid' status...

Edited January 24, 2010 by tutsiwarrior

[donx]

there are a number of folks here on the forum that have not signed the Letter of Confirmation for various reasons, i.e., being unaware of such requirement and the thai spouse who has retained her maiden name approaching the land office on her own to register the purchase/transfer of ownership for example...

And the thai spouse who has retained her maiden name approaching the land office with her foreign spouse who is ready, willing and expecting to sign the Letter of Confirmation only to be told that his presence and signature is not needed.

The above is what happened to me.

[tutsiwarrior]

it would be useful to have a Land Code reference for the Letter of Confirmation for the benefit of those who have not signed but would like to approach their local land office with the intention of rectifying their personal situation...also, in this way a lawyer could be retained for this purpose (a grey area in the law would be wide open for abuse by rural land office bumpkins); without a legal reference how could the lawyers proceed?

could be that in areas with few foreigners the local land office staff are not aware of the Letter of Confirmation...at my local transport office they have refused to issue driving licenses to foreigners by saying that it's 'not possible'

Edited January 25, 2010 by tutsiwarrior

[MJo]

Now has anyone given this declaration to land office out side thailand in embassy or consular ?

What is needed, marriage certificate, chanote in question etc ?

[Gary A]

I have signed five of those documents over the past six years. Without the signed document, the land office refused to make the land transfer. As I understand it, if your wife has retained her Thai last name and the land office doesn't know she is married to a farang, the land could possibly be confiscated due to fraud.

[MJo]

Ok, this is what Singapore embassy told me regarding signing the declaration at embassy....

1. Land department in Thailand will first issue the declaration form to your wife detailing the title in question etc

2. That needs to be then mailed to Singapore

3. I need to go to recognized laywyer office and sign, them withnessing my signature

4. Then go to embassy where they will certify the signatures (takes 2 business days and cost is SGD30 per signature)

5. After embassy stamps are in place the document need to be submitted to land department to complete the transfer

And embassy needs usual copies of passport etc etc

So possible but not very feasible considering Singapore's close proximity to Thailand. So much easier to delay few days and fly to BKK to sign instead of going thru all this. Cheaper as well to buy return ticket from Tiger or AA than use couriers to deliver the doc's...

Mind you being it europe or states this would make sense considering the cost of flights etc.

Edit: note that requirements are probably different in other embassies.

Edited January 26, 2010 by MJo

[MJo]

I will definedly comply with the requirement to sign. Not prepared to take the risk of losing it all and other complications arising from breaking the law outright.

Some land offices might still do it with Thai name and bit tea money but would not advice anyone taking the risk. The next crackdown is long overdue. Several days now...

[Bagwan]

My attitude is that I gave my wife the money i.e. it was a gift. I do not ask for gifts to be returned if I fall out with anybody at a later date, nor would I feel I needed to return a gift unless it was from Greek of course, in which case it may be foolhardy to accept anything in the first place.

It seemed sensible to hand over now, or rather 5 years ago, rather than she collect upon my demise. In that way I could heavily influence how the land was developed to ensure a steady and appropriate income to keep her in the style that she has become accustomed for the rest of her days.