Red-Shirt Movement 'At War With Military'

[Paul123456]

I hope he is strung up as a traitor

[animatic]

Anytime i read these threads about red/yellow and the claims of democracy i just look at this pic and realize it's all about money.

This coup leader gave him the telecoms empire thanks to his wife's connected family.

Money and the power.

Exactly, power and money or money first and power later as it can usually buy the latter.

Just a thought, a reflection - if all this political trouble in Thailand is happening when Khun Thaksin does not have access to his fortune I can only imagine how interesting it will become if the money is returned to him! He would become super powerful, more than ever. The good news is that it is believed that he would forgive all his opponents and promises to take no revenge on his political enemies. He will live peaceful life and not bother anybody anymore.

We will see, but this is going to get more interesting. What are the bets now? Will he get the money back or not? Any leaks yet?

Trained at the knee of a true dictator and coup-meister in the uses of patronage and power to control a nation...

Oh yeah Thaksin learned his lessons well. I see that color pic and Thaksin looks ready to mess himself

he's so happy in this company. Is this where he earned his Democratic Spurs and Saddle to ride the country into the future.

Oh wait: " The UN isn't my Father. " " Democracy is not my aim." Well, I guess not, his schooling was too thorough.

He'd rather ride the country into the dust as long as HE holds the reigns.. or is that just reigns supreme?

What he didn't learn was how to fade out gracefully after his time at the top is finished.

A very Thai trait he seems to abjure wholeheartedly.

Edited January 24, 2010 by animatic

[Jingthing]

Stupid question perhaps, but what color of shirts do the muslims wear ??

How is the relation between the reds and muslims ?

Its a good question. I would say neither. Under Thaksin there were horrible atrocities against Muslims in the south, while the yellows are known to represent a traditional Buddhist conservative point of view.

utter nonsense... you are doing it again - linking Buddhism/Monarchy and all 'things good' with one political faction - I am Buddhist and utterly contradict this assertion (as would my Thai friends if I quoted you).

No sir, it is your outrageous twisted interpretation of my comments that is total nonsense. No wonder your red friends are outraged by what people say on this board based on the clearly BIASED and clearly inflammatory ways you present them. What purpose does it serve for you to inspire outrage by your Thai friends against foreigners here anyway? I don't get you at all.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Jingthing

[scorecard]

The reason they voted for Thaksin even with all his faults was because he was the 1st to stand up for them, even though most regard him as corrupt, but they regard all of governing figures to be corrupt. However will side with the ones which are going to help the basic man on the street, who's basic day to day life has not improved. This country is too divided right now between those who live off others and those who work.

"The reason they voted for Thaksin even with all his faults was because he was the 1st to stand up for them, ......."

Wow, we still have people believing this line Amazing.

[Crushdepth]

I appointed myself a leader of the Democratic...[snip]

...People's Republic of Korea?

Where do they find these peanuts?

Edited January 24, 2010 by Crushdepth

[jdinasia]

The Reds have never been about Democracy at all and the yellows, while having a few spots on their record are far more democratic in nature.

So comically outrageous that one can put to one side the dishonesty or possibly wilful ignorance this statement represents.

Clearly the writer doesn't follow history very closely.

Actually ... it is based on history, particularly the history since the advent of the Red and yellow movements.

No it's a lie and easily proven too.The Reds have never threatened to disenfranchise anyone and espoused democratic values.It was part of the yellow platform however to effectively disenfranchise a large swathe of rural Thais, to proclaim a Sino-Thai triumphalism, to provide more power to unelected elites and the military.This was compounded by racist slurs on Thais of Lao,Khmer and "non-Thai" origin.

Cute --- again full of lies and misrepresentations -- but Cute

Disenfranchise? Whom? Nobody under that ill conceived new democracy plan espoused by some of the PAD would have been 'disenfranchised'. Everyone would have gotten a vote AND then some power groups (including labor unions and farmers) would have gotten votes too.

Racist slurs? LOL .. Sino-Thai triumphalism (sic) -- you mean Thaksin right? He is after all .. Sino-Thai Unelected Elites? --- you mean Thaksin's main supporters in the areas he did well in? Those political bosses that don't run for office anymore but control massive voting blocks through vote-buying and intimidation?Those are the elite you are referring to aren't you? After all Thaksin's family had their name bestowed up[on them in 1911 I think ... doesn't that make him elite? Isn't he the leader of the Red movement and hasn't he decried Democracy often? Wasn't his model the CEO model in which all power in the government was derived from him? Didn't he state that he trusted the courts (a mainstay of a democracy) but then flee the country when it was clear they couldn't be bought? Didn't his lawyers get caught attempting to hand over 2million baht? Didn't Thaksin and the red movement's actions cost farmers their land by increasing their debt load to the point that they lost everything? Isn't it fair to say that many people laboring under this increasing debt load brought on by Thaksin's populist programs will lose all if they don't get him or his cronies back in office to offer them more loans or at least deferments (or forgive those debts totally?)

Hasn't the red movement had people like Giles U. up on stage calling for all sorts of things that can't be discussed on here? Didn't Giles then bugger off to England? Giles isn't for Democracy if you remember .. and by his own statements neither is Thaksin. Isn't this thread about a guy that has been openly associated with the Reds ... and didn't he threaten grenade attacks on the yellows .. and didn't those grenade attacks happen? Now he is claiming to be the leader of the reds (self-appointed leader of a democratic *cough* organization?) Haven't the Reds prevented Democrats from campaigning in red controlled areas? Haven't they perpetuated the majority of all the violence that has occurred in the years that this has been going on? Democracy my pale white posterior --- all they want is Thaksin controlling the purse strings and doling out the cash!

[animatic]

JDN right on and all too on the mark.

Edited January 24, 2010 by animatic

[jayboy]

Cute --- again full of lies and misrepresentations -- but Cute

Disenfranchise? Whom? Nobody under that ill conceived new democracy plan espoused by some of the PAD would have been 'disenfranchised'. Everyone would have gotten a vote AND then some power groups (including labor unions and farmers) would have gotten votes too.

Racist slurs? LOL .. Sino-Thai triumphalism (sic) -- you mean Thaksin right? He is after all .. Sino-Thai Unelected Elites? --- you mean Thaksin's main supporters in the areas he did well in? Those political bosses that don't run for office anymore but control massive voting blocks through vote-buying and intimidation?Those are the elite you are referring to aren't you? After all Thaksin's family had their name bestowed up[on them in 1911 I think ... doesn't that make him elite? Isn't he the leader of the Red movement and hasn't he decried Democracy often? Wasn't his model the CEO model in which all power in the government was derived from him? Didn't he state that he trusted the courts (a mainstay of a democracy) but then flee the country when it was clear they couldn't be bought? Didn't his lawyers get caught attempting to hand over 2million baht? Didn't Thaksin and the red movement's actions cost farmers their land by increasing their debt load to the point that they lost everything? Isn't it fair to say that many people laboring under this increasing debt load brought on by Thaksin's populist programs will lose all if they don't get him or his cronies back in office to offer them more loans or at least deferments (or forgive those debts totally?)

Hasn't the red movement had people like Giles U. up on stage calling for all sorts of things that can't be discussed on here? Didn't Giles then bugger off to England? Giles isn't for Democracy if you remember .. and by his own statements neither is Thaksin. Isn't this thread about a guy that has been openly associated with the Reds ... and didn't he threaten grenade attacks on the yellows .. and didn't those grenade attacks happen? Now he is claiming to be the leader of the reds (self-appointed leader of a democratic *cough* organization?) Haven't the Reds prevented Democrats from campaigning in red controlled areas? Haven't they perpetuated the majority of all the violence that has occurred in the years that this has been going on? Democracy my pale white posterior --- all they want is Thaksin controlling the purse strings and doling out the cash!

Yes Thaksin is Chinese.What is this meant to prove? Can't you transcend your Thai politics for the kindergarden?

Another series of lies.These are the facts

1.The PAD wanted to reduce the voting influence of rural voters (ie the Thai majority).You can back away from it now but that was the position and is easily checked

2.The PAD platforms in Bangkok consistently slurred Thais of non Chinese ethnicity in a disgusting racist way.Do you deny it?

3.Giles is virulently anti Thaksin.Why are you rabbiting on about off field Giles anyway?

[brahmburgers]

.....maybe just me, but there's a lot of frustration with this current regime....

You and the people you interact with are entitled to opinions. The current government ('regime' as you say) is not perfect, but are doing quite well considering the sustained animosity towards them. On a nearly weekly basis, there are threats of civil (uncivil) unrest, either coming from the puppet master himself, or echoing from others who look to him for direction. That's not a good way to conduct a political campaign: to continually threaten violence, if you don't get your way. It's like a group of naughty kids who threaten to dump all the trash cans at the school if they don't get an added day off each week.

Thailand has a dearth of good leadership material, but hopefully with Abhisit, there's a trend toward improvements. Let the man get going with the business of trying to enact improvements for Thailand. It's hard to run a marathon with spectators throwing bottles at your feet.

[animatic]

...

1.The PAD wanted to reduce the voting influence of rural voters (ie the Thai majority).You can back away from it now but that was the position and is easily checked

2.The PAD platforms in Bangkok consistently slurred Thais of non Chinese ethnicity in a disgusting racist way.Do you deny it?

3.Giles is virulently anti Thaksin.Why are you rabbiting on about off field Giles anyway?

1 ) One proposal to solve the political impasse, from ONE PAD speech, on one night,

and it was dropped with in days of it ever being uttered.

This was nothing more than a one shot proposal, or talking point, that was dropped quickly

EXCEPT for the RED Supporters, like Jaboy is doing here, using it as a tactic as if it were a

real concrete PAD platform for running the country. So much freedom of expression

and to talk about ideas freely in public both good and bad ideas.

2. ) Can you show us when this slurring was happening and provided reputable quotes and good translations?

Months and months of all sorts of speeches, but the dirt they allegedly said,

only seems to be spoken of by opposing speakers. And also it's rather important that

was it PAD leaders repeatedly saying these slurs as part of the platform,

and not one night one guest said something bad?

So please give us links to both Thai and English translations. Please chapter and verse.

3. ) Giles was anti-Thaksin, because he is anti-Capitalist, with a Uni Professor kind of philosophical absolutism,

but still very pro-communism/arche Marxist/socialist and anti-monarchy because of it,

and went on the Red Stages because one else would listen. He of course went to far,

like Da Torpedo, but had the connections top leave the country.

His moral stance had no problem using Thaksins dirty money to further his anti monarchy aims...

So there is another SHADE on your absolutist truth. The TRUTH is anything but absolute in Thailand.

As many shades of gray and umber as their are smiles to hide behind.

Edited January 24, 2010 by animatic

[animatic]

There is not a single government world wide that doesn't cause "A lot of frustration."

[ruskiehat]

.....maybe just me, but there's a lot of frustration with this current regime....

You and the people you interact with are entitled to opinions. The current government ('regime' as you say) is not perfect, but are doing quite well considering the sustained animosity towards them. On a nearly weekly basis, there are threats of civil (uncivil) unrest, either coming from the puppet master himself, or echoing from others who look to him for direction. That's not a good way to conduct a political campaign: to continually threaten violence, if you don't get your way. It's like a group of naughty kids who threaten to dump all the trash cans at the school if they don't get an added day off each week.

Thailand has a dearth of good leadership material, but hopefully with Abhisit, there's a trend toward improvements. Let the man get going with the business of trying to enact improvements for Thailand. It's hard to run a marathon with spectators throwing bottles at your feet.

I agree let him get on with it and hopefully he will unite the country, but seriously do you see him doing that? Just curious, I hope he does and wish him the best, but there's a lot of selfish self intrests as always when politics are involved which he needs to overcome, do you not think so?

Think most Thai's which ever side of the fence they sit on, basically want to get on with their lives without Red/Yellow shirted people ruining their livelyhood in their names, that's where also a fair ammount of frustration stems from.

Edited January 24, 2010 by ruskiehat

[Insight]

I don. 't know how many on this forum happened to see the Rageh Omaar documentary " Thailand: Warring Colours " shown on Al jazeera two or three weeks ago ? This is more balanced analysis of the situation than you will ever get from locally based media.

Said before on another forum, but this documentary doesn't have a single mention of the PAD protests, featuring some huge numbers, that lead to the coup. Instead our Raggie insinuates it was the "elite" that decided to have the coup because they didn't like Thaksin.

Bullshit, and an insult to the many thousands of people that protested Thaksins abuse of the system when selling AIS to Temasek. It's been reported many times here and elsewhere Thaksin was going to send his mob into Bangkok and the coup occurred to prevent this from happening.

Why not try asking an ordinary civilian about their take on vote buying, rather than a red shirt leader, Raggie? <deleted>...

Oh ok

So we are told the media inside the country is biased and you seem to be suggesting

Al Jazeera even outside the country is biased so where do you suggest we should obtain reliable and unbiased news

coverage of these developments ?

Well gosh darn. What to do when live gives you lemons like this?

Here's an idea; read all sources of news - even the ones that make you think angry thoughts - then conduct your own independent analysis and conclusion.

Prior to this documentary I thought Rageh Omaar was brilliant. Only a few weeks ago he presented an eye opening documentary on Channel 4 about race and intelligence, where he was interviewing people who openly considered him to be less intelligent because of the colour of his skin, yet he kept his professionalism throughout.

I can't think of any reason however this rather significant chapter in Thaksin's PM-ship was omitted from the documentary, given IMHO (and probably many, many others) it was the main conduit for his government being overthrown - and not because the "elite" didn't like him as the documentary insinuates.

[Jingthing]

No, Abhisit can't unite the country. What man who wants to be PM here could?

[roger77]

#63

Actually a very good post and mostly spot-on.

If you go back and check, this post of yours is now Post #63???

As it is, I don't know that it's necessarily such a very good post... and thus, it's only marginally spot-on.

[jdinasia]

Cute --- again full of lies and misrepresentations -- but Cute

Disenfranchise? Whom? Nobody under that ill conceived new democracy plan espoused by some of the PAD would have been 'disenfranchised'. Everyone would have gotten a vote AND then some power groups (including labor unions and farmers) would have gotten votes too.

Racist slurs? LOL .. Sino-Thai triumphalism (sic) -- you mean Thaksin right? He is after all .. Sino-Thai Unelected Elites? --- you mean Thaksin's main supporters in the areas he did well in? Those political bosses that don't run for office anymore but control massive voting blocks through vote-buying and intimidation?Those are the elite you are referring to aren't you? After all Thaksin's family had their name bestowed up[on them in 1911 I think ... doesn't that make him elite? Isn't he the leader of the Red movement and hasn't he decried Democracy often? Wasn't his model the CEO model in which all power in the government was derived from him? Didn't he state that he trusted the courts (a mainstay of a democracy) but then flee the country when it was clear they couldn't be bought? Didn't his lawyers get caught attempting to hand over 2million baht? Didn't Thaksin and the red movement's actions cost farmers their land by increasing their debt load to the point that they lost everything? Isn't it fair to say that many people laboring under this increasing debt load brought on by Thaksin's populist programs will lose all if they don't get him or his cronies back in office to offer them more loans or at least deferments (or forgive those debts totally?)

Hasn't the red movement had people like Giles U. up on stage calling for all sorts of things that can't be discussed on here? Didn't Giles then bugger off to England? Giles isn't for Democracy if you remember .. and by his own statements neither is Thaksin. Isn't this thread about a guy that has been openly associated with the Reds ... and didn't he threaten grenade attacks on the yellows .. and didn't those grenade attacks happen? Now he is claiming to be the leader of the reds (self-appointed leader of a democratic *cough* organization?) Haven't the Reds prevented Democrats from campaigning in red controlled areas? Haven't they perpetuated the majority of all the violence that has occurred in the years that this has been going on? Democracy my pale white posterior --- all they want is Thaksin controlling the purse strings and doling out the cash!

Yes Thaksin is Chinese.What is this meant to prove? Can't you transcend your Thai politics for the kindergarden?

Another series of lies.These are the facts

1.The PAD wanted to reduce the voting influence of rural voters (ie the Thai majority).You can back away from it now but that was the position and is easily checked

2.The PAD platforms in Bangkok consistently slurred Thais of non Chinese ethnicity in a disgusting racist way.Do you deny it?

3.Giles is virulently anti Thaksin.Why are you rabbiting on about off field Giles anyway?

Wow -----

Kinda amazing! I asked question after question that you didn't answer (when I took a shot at all your (not so) salient points ......

1) No the PAD didn't want to reduce ... blah blah blah ... they tossed around an idea that included voting blocks of different groups but EVERYONE would still get a vote. Ooooops that makes disenfranchising a lie ... The fact that they discussed it then dropped it means what .... Oh that they are more open to either admitting a mistake .. or just more open to discussing options,

2) yes .. I deny it. I have no doubt they had some choice words for certain people though

3) Giles was on the cover of Truth Today, He was featured on the show. He shared a red stage with the leadership of the reds .. and he wrote a red manifesto .. THAT is why I am discussing him

Now please scroll up and tell me about those "Sino-Thai" elites .. because surely you mean Thaksin He and his friends are Sino-Thai and they were the real beneficiaries of Thaksin's populist schemes. ... then work your way through the list of TRULY undemocratic things I listed that were done by the Reds

and please do not leave out the attacks on the Democrats trying to Campaign in the N and NE, because preventing a rival of the political party you are backing from being heard is pretty vile..... doing it with violence is .. well .... typically Red.

and please do not leave out The guy this thread is directly about using the Reds and threatening grenade attacks on the yellows ... that then happened along with deaths. Remembering of course that the Reds never disavowed him and that he stayed active with them this whole time ....

and please do not leave out the Red Fearless Leader --- who stated Democracy wasn't his goal ... (in English). And who was convicted by a court he said he trusted .. but not before fleeing the country. Then there is the matter of the 2 million baht and his lawyers trying to bribe the courts. Don't forget those things

Edited January 24, 2010 by jdinasia

[SomTumTiger]

Just saw a nice tag team ropeadope put on some of the red supporters here. Better luck next time. How's that war going?

Edited January 24, 2010 by SomTumTiger

[roger77]

Just saw a nice tag team ropeadope put on some of the red supporters here. Better luck next time. How's that war going?

It was amusing to read the toe-to-toes in this thread and it seems that side certainly does get battered about on here when faced with the reality of the history of events.

[nakachalet]

We are at war with military: Khattiya

Suspended Army officer Maj Gen Khattiya Sawasdipol announced Saturday that he is a leader of the red-shirt movement and is training the movement's fighters for fighting against the military.

He called a radio programme to say that he had not escaped into Malaysia but he went to Hat Yai on Thursday to train the red-shirt people there.

--------------

in hardyai <หาดใหญ>?

where in hatyai sir?

i was in hatyai all week.... and never saw a twist there....hummmmm

are you sure, you are not in yaalar or purt-ta-nee where the locals are more easily pursuaded....?

most people in haadyai are pretty much up to date with what is going on, in the country.... and they are not easily influenced by encouraging words alone....

well, i cound be wrong again....

[SomTumTiger]

This guy ain't in the country, and he ain't coming back anytime soon. He'll be joining is master and his master's lapdog, soon enough. They've got a war to plan, after all.

[roger77]

The other English paper that I understand we can't direct quote says that for least part of that week, nakachalet, he went into hiding at a safe house in Malaysia's Kedah state after he learned that police had sought a warrant for his arrest.

He did return and even went to the Red Shirt rally in Chantaburi today. He said he would turn himself in tomorrow (Monday) in Bangkok.

Edited January 24, 2010 by roger77

[animatic]

#63

Actually a very good post and mostly spot-on.

If you go back and check, this post of yours is now Post #63???

As it is, I don't know that it's necessarily such a very good post... and thus, it's only marginally spot-on.

Ah yes patting himself on his own back like it was anothers...

Or just defending his idea since it was torn up handily...

Only his hair dresser knows for sure.

Marginally spot on... LOL lovely oxymoron!

a good thing if its like hand grenades and horse shoes.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

#63

Actually a very good post and mostly spot-on.

If you go back and check, this post of yours is now Post #63???

As it is, I don't know that it's necessarily such a very good post... and thus, it's only marginally spot-on.

However does a newbie have a grasp on TV topics ? Your efforts here, in a byegone era, were appreciated Jacko. Let me try tp persuade George to pay a head doctor for you Wacko Jacko. Kind of a retirement benefit. Reality is something far away for you I am afraid. Sad case when a thinker loses it.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The other English paper that I understand we can't direct quote says that for least part of that week, nakachalet, he went into hiding at a safe house in Malaysia's Kedah state after he learned that police had sought a warrant for his arrest.

He did return and even went to the Red Shirt rally in Chantaburi today. He said he would turn himself in tomorrow (Monday) in Bangkok.

Seeya Wacko.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

#63

Actually a very good post and mostly spot-on.

If you go back and check, this post of yours is now Post #63???

As it is, I don't know that it's necessarily such a very good post... and thus, it's only marginally spot-on.

However does a newbie have a grasp on TV topics ? Your efforts here, in a byegone era, were appreciated Jacko. Let me try tp persuade George to pay a head doctor for you Wacko Jacko. Kind of a retirement benefit. Reality is something far away for you I am afraid. Sad case when a thinker loses it.

and 63 was posted before Roger joined. You are sick Wacko.

[Thai at Heart]

Now please scroll up and tell me about those "Sino-Thai" elites .. because surely you mean Thaksin He and his friends are Sino-Thai and they were the real beneficiaries of Thaksin's populist schemes. ... then work your way through the list of TRULY undemocratic things I listed that were done by the Reds

and please do not leave out the attacks on the Democrats trying to Campaign in the N and NE, because preventing a rival of the political party you are backing from being heard is pretty vile..... doing it with violence is .. well .... typically Red.

and please do not leave out The guy this thread is directly about using the Reds and threatening grenade attacks on the yellows ... that then happened along with deaths. Remembering of course that the Reds never disavowed him and that he stayed active with them this whole time ....

and please do not leave out the Red Fearless Leader --- who stated Democracy wasn't his goal ... (in English). And who was convicted by a court he said he trusted .. but not before fleeing the country. Then there is the matter of the 2 million baht and his lawyers trying to bribe the courts. Don't forget those things

When it comes to the Sino-Chinese issue, I don't think it is enough to say Thaksin was Chinese so the PAD and the UDD are the same.

There are two different types of business groups in Thailand that are drawn on slightly different lines. This maybe a little simplistic but worth a stab.

a. The older group - drawn from longer standing businesses, focussed on agriculture, finance, seen as possibly contributing to build the country as a whole. Born out of Bangkok Chinese families. Long term part of the businesses, dynastic. Focus on exports for some. Part of the social fabric of the country. Joined with existing political parties instead of creating their own. Run their businesses in conjunction with political need of the time. Possibly lost significant wealth in 97. Facing more competition in their industries through AFTA and FTA's. Largely very obviously loyal to the monarchy. Generally quite low profile except for Thailand Tatler - True Hi-so in their eyes.

b. The newer group. - Newer fangled businesses, construction, media, telecoms, internet. Have made their money predominantly from business IN the country. Created large wealth in the last 20 years. Not export centric, not agro centric. Created their wealth largely in the last 20 years. Do enormous amounts of business with the government. Created TRT to apparently "serve" their needs. Loyalty possibly questionable. Higher profile - Wannabe Hi-So People.

Now at the end of the day, there isn't a hard and fast rule for this combination of people because money talks and business makes some relationships absolute necessities. The very top families have their fingers in so many pies that there is inevitably some overlap, but it isn't impossible to see the types of loyalties within TRT and the business community and the Dems and their loyalties.

There has always been a system for getting your place at the top table in Thailand and I reckon it had an awful lot to do with contributing something to the overall wealth of the country. Now it may be cynical, but adding to the financial well being, or creating export markets for farmers produce is probably rightly perceived as more important than selling phones, internet connections or TV advertising. Please remember what the priorities of the most important man in the country are.

I believe that many of the families were allowed to carry on their businesses unfettered as long as they were carrying out a slowly, slowly wealth creation that was perceived as bringing benefits to the lowest levels of society. Lest we forget the roots of Thai Farmers Bank, Cp etc. I am not saying that this situation may not have changed in the last few years. But these guys were allowed to get on with their business relatively unencumbered as long as it appeared that whilst they made their gazillions they were helping to build something such as agricultural exports or the wealth of the country. Nor did they aspire to messing with the status quo too much, and simply worked with who they had at the time.

Compare this with the faster moving, techno-construction-media people in the TRT and I can see a distinct difference.

Then look at this from a SE Asian/Asian perspective. Most of the countries in the region have Chinese immigrant families of extraordinary wealth, but they largely stay out of the political limelight and work the system. Some of the Thai/Chinese families/businesses have enormous influence in this collection of families.

Here was Thaksin largely tearing up and possibly re-organising the fabric of Thai-Chinese business.

Now throw in the Finland plot and it isn't completely implausible that a group of businessmen looked at the fact that all of their hard earned connections might be at risk if someone was to be able to carry out such a plot.

I really believe that what Thaksin really did was force people to decide where their business loyalties lay. This was not how it was before. All the businesses could get their business done unfettered before, but when Thaksin came along and ran the country, it was on his business terms, take it or leave it. Well, a lot left it, and look where it got Thaksin.

[Samuian]

.....maybe just me, but there's a lot of frustration with this current regime....

You and the people you interact with are entitled to opinions. The current government ('regime' as you say) is not perfect, but are doing quite well considering the sustained animosity towards them. On a nearly weekly basis, there are threats of civil (uncivil) unrest, either coming from the puppet master himself, or echoing from others who look to him for direction. That's not a good way to conduct a political campaign: to continually threaten violence, if you don't get your way. It's like a group of naughty kids who threaten to dump all the trash cans at the school if they don't get an added day off each week.

Thailand has a dearth of good leadership material, but hopefully with Abhisit, there's a trend toward improvements. Let the man get going with the business of trying to enact improvements for Thailand. It's hard to run a marathon with spectators throwing bottles at your feet.

I agree let him get on with it and hopefully he will unite the country, but seriously do you see him doing that? Just curious, I hope he does and wish him the best, but there's a lot of selfish self intrests as always when politics are involved which he needs to overcome, do you not think so?

Think most Thai's which ever side of the fence they sit on, basically want to get on with their lives without Red/Yellow shirted people ruining their livelyhood in their names, that's where also a fair ammount of frustration stems from.

How can be united what isn't divided?

Except in politically motivated divisional slurs, against anything that isn't with the red shirts agenda and not pro-Thaksin?

It's all enacted, it's a game, and more and more it starts to unravel -

"as you did to me, I will do to you!"

The reaction of a bad loser!

The man lost the game, because what he and his clan including the entourage gained wasn't enough fast enough,

immeasurable greed has finally led into the abyss: "this cave none of the goods and valuables of the entire world will fill this cave!"

He, "the Man" did it himself, he himself was the cause of his downfall, if he would have stood by the law, he probably would still be in politics, but this was never on his agenda, as we've seen and it is what is, all that is, as is!

In which way it ever might be pushed,it's original course changed to, we've seen it.... and yes, he is guilty as one could be, what he is trying now, is the worst an "honest man" with goodwill could do - if it would go his way.... there would be bad, bad times ahead, remember his "friend" next door, look at the "red shirts", "Seh Daeng", granade attacks, poeple shot, killed, maimed, intimidated...."Democrazy' ANYONE?

Let 'em go on , and yes hopefully they will steer the ship one day

successfully out of this swamp, then every day, every minute will have been worth it!

Abig for Thai at Hear post #297t good summary, think you've hit the jack pot!

Edited January 25, 2010 by thaiphoon
Line spacing adjusted

[ivowatson]

This also calls into consideration Thaksins choices of who he will ally with in his quest...

A high percentage are not looking at Thailands best interests as part of their world view,

but only their advancement in a Thaksin controlled world, since they have burnt their bridges to the real world.

I both dislike yellow and red shirts leaders and wish they'd all be in jail for a long time. I respect people can have a different opinion. But one thing is very clear: Thaksin will do and use anything to get his money back even if it's not in the best interest of Thailand. I think it's safe to say he doesn't care at all about Thailand. At least Abbhisit on the other hand cares.

Edited January 25, 2010 by ivowatson

[aussieron]

Actually the overthrow of the violent and corrupt dictator Thaksin was welcomed, judging by the immediate reaction of the population.

There is no treason in a non-violent coup which overthrows a corrupt dictatorship, unless of course the corrupt dictator wins.

Many would dispute your claim the coup was welcomed by most Thais, but in any case it's completely irrelevant whether it was welcomed or not.

Your second assertion is even more absurd.Again whether the coup was violent or not is irrelevant (although the threat of violence is always implicit).The question is whether the government overthrown by the junta was constitutionally legitimate or not, not whether it was led by a "corrupt dictator" in your usage or the nation's saviour as many others would have it.As a matter of fact in an assessment of Thaksin, I lean more towards your description but again that's completely irrelevant.

The fact that these criminals in a panicky and cowardly way procured post facto pardons for themselves demonstrates that they at least knew very clearly they had committed treason.

Yes. In a true democracy, the elected officials have terms which are served out. The elected officials have a limit to the number of terms they can serve. This assures that the opposition will only have to endure a democratically elected party for certain amount of time, and then they can have another chance, reinvigorated, stronger, and purged of any candidates which may have been holding the party back. This process not only is self perpetuating, but very strong in promoting peace among opposing factions of common people, because it utilizes the peoples hope for a guaranteed, reasonable, possibility for change as a pacifier. Now, in Thailand, once there is a party in office the people in the streets feel that violence is their only hope for change since it seems there is no other way to get another chance. It is also the reason you keep hearing everyone shout CORRUPTION! incessantly. It really is irrelevant whether they are corrupt or not if what really matters is the vote of the people. Not to mention the fact that the determination of relative corruption in many cases is subjective, as well as the "nature of the beast" in politics. You can see that George Bush was corrupt to a certain degree, however, there was no need to fight about it because the opposition had hope that they could empower themselves and their message and trust the system and the popular vote to remove him, or in his case he could not run anyway because his term limit had been reached. However, the people of Thailand must know they have complete control over who who gets elected by way of a free and fair, scheduled national elections. The term "SNAP ELECTION" is almost comical and should be outlawed! Thailand has a long way to go to reach these basic requirements, and many others, for listing itself as a democracy. There are massive class struggles swept under the carpet every day which have been festering for hundreds of years. The privileged WILL protect their lifestyles even at the expense of democracy until it is too late. We know this from history. I hope it is not too late for Thailand.

Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.

Edited January 25, 2010 by aussieron

[ChiangMaiFun]

Stupid question perhaps, but what color of shirts do the muslims wear ??

How is the relation between the reds and muslims ?

Its a good question. I would say neither. Under Thaksin there were horrible atrocities against Muslims in the south, while the yellows are known to represent a traditional Buddhist conservative point of view.

utter nonsense... you are doing it again - linking Buddhism/Monarchy and all 'things good' with one political faction - I am Buddhist and utterly contradict this assertion (as would my Thai friends if I quoted you).

No sir, it is your outrageous twisted interpretation of my comments that is total nonsense. No wonder your red friends are outraged by what people say on this board based on the clearly BIASED and clearly inflammatory ways you present them. What purpose does it serve for you to inspire outrage by your Thai friends against foreigners here anyway? I don't get you at all.

You claimed yellows reflected conservative Buddhist views? did you not? and my friends are not outraged at foreign TV posters (they could not care less about our views actually) but against the yellow propaganda which your typical posts reflect. In fact I find it very difficult to find any supporters of the yellow agenda - apart from one farang friend who is even more reactionary than your goodself.