Red-Shirt Movement 'At War With Military'

[rixalex]

I feel like I am debating with a bunch of small school children

If only you were debating.

[steveromagnino]

I feel like I am debating with a bunch of small school children

looking on, I can't help but feel one might say

'I feel like I am debating with debating with and losing to a bunch of small school children'

Strawmen and other basic debating techniques are what usually get used at a level of debating in lower high school.

Beyond that, given the ability of the opposing side to rip the shreds of out of arguments based without substance, techniques tend to become a little more sophisticated.

A fair few recent entrants to the political arena in Thailand consider themselves to be debaters of note; personally I think they are masters of their own domain; kings of their castles.

But true debaters, they are not.

Edited January 28, 2010 by steveromagnino

[boris52]

I feel like I am debating with a bunch of small school children

looking on, I can't help but feel one might say

'I feel like I am debating with debating with and losing to a bunch of small school children'

Strawmen and other basic debating techniques are what usually get used at a level of debating in lower high school.

Beyond that, given the ability of the opposing side to rip the shreds of out of arguments based without substance, techniques tend to become a little more sophisticated.

A fair few recent entrants to the political arena in Thailand consider themselves to be debaters of note; personally I think they are masters of their own domain; kings of their castles.

But true debaters, they are not.

This is more a general comment rather than directed at anyone or any group of people specifically, but one thing I learned many years ago back in Russia was that you cannot win an argument against an ignorant person.

[scorecard]

I feel like I am debating with a bunch of small school children

Are you saying my points are the points you would expect from small children? I disagree, my points are absolutely adult and logical.

If you don't like the points I make or don't agree with the points I make, then that's your right and I respect your right.

But please don't say my points are childish, they are not.

Perhaps what your really saying is that you can't provide any argument against my points so you fall back to sarcastic off subject comments. It that childish?

[ballpoint]

This is more a general comment rather than directed at anyone or any group of people specifically, but one thing I learned many years ago back in Russia was that you cannot win an argument against an ignorant person.

Given your earlier 'school children" comment, we all know which group it is aimed at. I'm ashamed to say that I'm going to sink down to your level this once and say:

Not used to losing then are you?

Edited January 28, 2010 by ballpoint

[steveromagnino]

This is more a general comment rather than directed at anyone or any group of people specifically, but one thing I learned many years ago back in Russia was that you cannot win an argument against an ignorant person.

On Thaivisa you have not yet posted anything other than a brief one or two line comment of the type (I have left out the few posts relating to your IT woes, and there are 3-4 posts unrelated to politics all of which are equally brief) - each paragraph is one of your posts - having summarised for you in one place ALL your postings, perhaps you can point out which have a single fact in them, supported by evidence - links, quotes, opinions, etc - and which are simply the types of comments one would expect from bar expert who shows no evidence at all of being able to answer or respond to points made by others?

Incidentallly it's not that I don't agree with you. It's that I have no idea what you are talking about most of the time, and so to read the 'debating with children' comment (ignoring that some children are much better at logic than some posters here seem to be) kind of makes me wonder whether you ever read what you write.

Boris 52 posts:

I feel like I am debating with a bunch of small school children

LOL, i was going to say the same thing.

how can somebody, in all seriousness claim they have studied Thai politics for 30 years and still remain unaware of the feelings (not saying you must agree with them, just be aware of what they are thinking and feeling) of the average red supporter. And, if you talk to enough of them, a pattern emerges.

Anyway, somebody who has studied Thai politics for 30 years shouldn't need to be spoon fed such basic information. Do some of your own research on the internet or better yet, talk to as wide a cross section of red supporters as possible, be totally objective and try and gather information, pose yourself as the ignorant farang. They will be happy to tell you how they feel. Don't impose your arrogance or look down on them, as you will get a clouded message.

google is your friend

This country has really gone downhill over the last 3 or so years after the mmilitary s intervention into politics.

The generals have had a taste of power once again and they are hungry for more and more of it.

haha if you don't know by now "why the red shirts feel cheated" then you either

1) don't know anything about Thai Politics or

2)you have a VERY narrow and one-faceted view of Thai Politics.

Translation: Coalition parties: we want more money. Abhisit: ok ok ok, i know you don't respect me, i know you don't give 2 hoots about this government but for the sake of clinging on to power for myself and the power hungry groups i represent, ill give however much money you need to keep me in power.

Well im not in the habit of just spoon feed knowledge to people, especially when its so blatantly obvious.

engage that grey matter of yours, instead of just regurgitating the same brainwashed verbiage over and over

Perhaps you should take your own advice

Your a PR man for the Thai Military, no? LOL

Ill be glad to see the back of this corruption ridden, rat infested, power hungry, pathetic excuse for a government.

Hopefully the smaller parties pile on the pressure and force a house dissolution, and return the power back to the people.

Please don't play dumb. Everyone knows the current government was put together by the military.

The government is soiled, through and through by military meddling. I think you know exactly what I mean, or do I have to spell it out ?

Oh well, it wont be too long before this pathetic excuse for a government crumbles.

SHAME of yuo, SURYAT. yuo put a blemish on thailand

its a somewhat predictible response by Taksin, i cna see tthe humor in it, howerver thsi is serious stuff for him, im sure he hsa a team of experts worknig arround tthe clock maikng tthe evidnece as watertight as posible. do i think tthey cna succeed ? no i dont.

thsi is really embarrassing frmo thsi old man. he always came accross as tthe perfect statesman, a gentleman, etc. it now apears that all that ws a facade.

he is just another self serving bugger who wilil bend tthe rules for his profet.

[jdinasia]

Scorecard, I would love to to hear your explanation of how the 'banning' of 111 democratically elected politicians would NOT make the voters feel cheated. Then you can go onto explain how 80 years of changing constitutions and military coups, ousting of elected officials would give any democracy minded Thai a great big feeling of warm and fuzzy.

It has been reported by many scholarsd and ploliticians of note, that the Red movement is vastly underestimated, a big mistake on the Yellow side. Thaksin is just a good smokeshow for the real movement. The Reds are making a similar size error in overestimating their Goals.

Anybody that thinks the situation that is brewing is just another round of gang warfare that has been going on for the past 80 years is sorely mistaken. I really, really REALLY hope I, and the other commentators who forecasting a civil war are wrong. Thinking it will happen is way the opposite from hoping it will happen.

There are measures that both sides could and should take to avoid the head on collision of the red and yellow trains.

You have 'studied' Thai politics for 30 years and you really don't think democrats should feel cheated? Come on! [111 'banned' democratically elected politicians]

Why don't you just come and say it. 'let them eat cake'

Democratically elected? The people you are referring to were party list executives of a party that were caught cheating. To say "democratically elected" about people responsible for voting fraud is a laugh.

When individuals are caught for buying votes the penalty is that they are banned ... when party executives are caught then the penalty is banning the party and all party-list MP's.

How can someone claim any moral highground for winning when they were cheating to get there?

[boris52]

Steve, although there are some really good posters on here, they get drowned out by the serial pro-military pro-governemtn posters, just seem to be posting the same, strange, blinkered nonsense. I don't know if they are on the military payroll or have simply been brainwashed , or are perhaps trolls, but I think you know as well as I that any sort of "intelligent" debate with these types is doomed from the beginning. They are just too closed minded.

[boris52]

This is more a general comment rather than directed at anyone or any group of people specifically, but one thing I learned many years ago back in Russia was that you cannot win an argument against an ignorant person.

Given your earlier 'school children" comment, we all know which group it is aimed at. I'm ashamed to say that I'm going to sink down to your level this once and say:

Not used to losing then are you?

You just cant help yourself can you ballpoint

[scorecard]

Steve, although there are some really good posters on here, they get drowned out by the serial pro-military pro-governemtn posters, just seem to be posting the same, strange, blinkered nonsense. I don't know if they are on the military payroll or have simply been brainwashed , or are perhaps trolls, but I think you know as well as I that any sort of "intelligent" debate with these types is doomed from the beginning. They are just too closed minded.

Well:

1. The (as you call them) 'serial pro-military pro-governemtn posters' have a right to express their opinion, just as you do.

2. If 'the others' get drowned out by the 'serial pro-military pro-governemtn posters' then may be there's a message to be noticed.

3. 'serial pro-military pro-governemtn posters' - 'Same blinkered nonsense'. My points earlier this afternoon are not nonsense, they are logical points, but you still haven't attempted to provide some logical responses.

4. 'I don't know if they are on the military payroll or have simply been brainwashed' Most of the posters (maybe 99%) are farang. Do you really think there's a group of farang on the military payroll who are paid to write things on webboard forums? Now whose being childish?

5. 'Brainwashed' By who? And who finds the people to be brainwashed, and where are they brainwashed....

6. 'but I think you know as well as I that any sort of "intelligent" debate with these types is doomed from the beginning. ' Intelligent debate - where's your 'intelligent response to any number of specific and highly logical comments?

7. 'closed minded' Perhaps these serial pro-military pro government posters have seriously analyzed the whole picture and their findings are that they don't see the red shirts as having even one ounce of credibility (just my opinion of course) and even see the red shirts as quite dangerous given their stated aims of pardons for well over 200 highly corrupt politicians, etc etc. (Just my opinion of course).

So khun boris, where's your specific, logical, and focused response to my comments?

[scorecard]

Steve, although there are some really good posters on here, they get drowned out by the serial pro-military pro-governemtn posters, just seem to be posting the same, strange, blinkered nonsense. I don't know if they are on the military payroll or have simply been brainwashed , or are perhaps trolls, but I think you know as well as I that any sort of "intelligent" debate with these types is doomed from the beginning. They are just too closed minded.

Quote from Boris: ".........., although there are some really good posters on here .....'

Well would you like to share some names and reasons for those you think are 'really good posters?

[scorecard]

Khun Boris,

Just wondering whether you have made an assumption that posters who are anti red shirt are therefore pro-military pro government?

That's not nesessarily true.

It's very possible that some posters (just my opinion) are anti red-shirt or very anti red shirt and also see the current government as far from perfect but very preferable to a government run by a mixture of very corrupt politicians plus the likes of jatuporn etc.

Edited January 28, 2010 by scorecard

[SpoliaOpima]

Too bad for Thailand, the junta has won.

Next stop, ruination.

Juntas of one sort or another have been in power here repeatedly since 1932. So if there is ruination, it has been here all along Stick around for more old wine in new bottles.

[scorecard]

Message for khun boris:

Taken from ‘Kuan Nam Hai Sai’ by Sarnsom, Opinion Page 5, Naew Na Newspaper, 27 January, 2010

Chiang Mai in Chaos

As the court’s ruling date on the case of the 76 billion baht frozen assets of Thaksin Shinawatra is drawing near, the supporters of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship, or DAAD, have been increasingly aggressive in their movement. This is especially true to the red shirts in Chiang Mai who have turned the province into something akin to a battlefield, waging wars against their opposition without regard to the law.

They flagrantly committ violent acts in the name of their supreme boss without a care about how the majority of Chiang Mai people feel. Allow me to give you a rundown on atrocities done by the red shirts so far.

During the administration of Somchai Wongsawat, fully armed red shirts surrounded a home of a leader of a PAD affiliated group in Chiang Mai. His name is Toedsak Jiamkijwattana and he operated a radio station which opposes Thaksin regime.

The unexpected happened. Settha, Toedsak’s father, was driving home when his vehicle was surrounded by the red shirts who proceeded to smash it with wooden and metal clubs. They dragged Settha out of the beat up car, stabbed and slashed him. They unleashed unspeakable malice on him before they shot him dead in the middle of the street.

The second incident involved two officials of the Constitution Court being attacked by the Rak Chiang Mai 51 group at the Chiang Mai International Airport. They were dragged and assaulted by the red shirts. Fortunately, both survived the attack with cuts and broken arms.

The police confiscated weapons from the red-shirts at their many gatherings. However, they were released on bail. They were violent at their gathering and their violence seems to know no bounds when the Rak Chiang Mai 51 group issued a threat to claim the life of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva in November 2009.

January 24, 2010, red shirts in Chiang Mai province laid siege to a vacation house of Jermsak Pinthong in Doi Saked district where he and other figures of the PAD would meet for a small discussion. Jermsak decided to leave the house but the red shirts based their violent attack on a false claim, spread through a local radio station. They surrounded the house and launched violent attacks while some people remained in the house.

During the seizure, the electricity was cut. Fireworks were used to scare people who were trapped inside in house. Guns were fired to further intimidate them. Threats of physical violence against them were made. The false claim was that the house’s basement was filled with a narcotic stash and both PAD figures Jermsak Pinthong and Seri Wongmontha were in the house.

Stones and marbles were thrown at people inside. Most of them were children and women. Glasses on windowpanes were shattered. The house was being targeted while children and women shivered inside in the dark.

January 25, 2010, the red shirts surrounded the headquarters of Provincial Police Region 5 in Chiang Mai and staged a similar attack, including throwing fireworks at police officials.

Their intention seems to be bringing Chiang Mai and Thailand down along with their deposed boss, Thaksin. They act in the interest of one person without a regard for peace and interest of the country. Their red isn’t the same with the red on the national flag. Red on the flag means nation but their red means Thaksin. They do everything to serve and please Thaksin. Their actions lately have been increasingly intolerable as they act as if the northern provinces belong to Thaksin. Those who oppose him will be harmed and killed as if Chiang Mai has become a lawless land.

Allowing the red shirts to ravage Chiang Mai, (home of Newin Chidchob’s father-in-law and home to Suthep Thaugsuban’s old school) and take peace, that is rightly belonged to the public, hostage is unacceptable. They should not be allowed to act as if they are above law or serve the convict who remains on the run. They have turned the top tourist town of Thailand into a war-torn province too many times.

Shouldn’t certain people in high power such as Deputy PM for national security Suthep Thaugsuban or Interior Minister Chawarat Charnveerakul feel incompetent or ashamed of themselves for allowing atrocities in Chiang Mai to go on?

They shouldn’t stay dully in their posts. Good people are fondly remembered by their accomplishments and what they’ve done for the public. Isn’t it time for the security authorities, who have been appointed by His Majesty the King, to get serious about their jobs and step up their effort especially in this time when Thailand needs them the most.

-- Tan Network 2010-01-28

This is the group who espouse to be the champions of democracy.

Care to offer your comments please khun boris.

[ballpoint]

You just cant help yourself can you ballpoint

On the contrary, I can very much help myself, and to prove it will refrain from replying to any further post made by you unless it gives either an opinion with reasons or a fact with evidence. Now, can you help yourself?

[animatic]

Aggressive attacks not based on considered rebutal or logical commentary

or ignoring making a response to questions posed, is not debating with children,

it is is arguing like children.

So didn't they teach proper grown up debating techniques in Mother Russia?

Or is calling your opponent demeaning names a proper debating technique.

If you can't come up with lucid answers then don't respond, because like the Boy Who Cried Wolf,

the few times you might have one, no one will listen to you, since the majority of posts are either

non-nonsensical, non-sequiter, irrelevant or too often mean spirited.

[jayboy]

Democratically elected? The people you are referring to were party list executives of a party that were caught cheating. To say "democratically elected" about people responsible for voting fraud is a laugh.

When individuals are caught for buying votes the penalty is that they are banned ... when party executives are caught then the penalty is banning the party and all party-list MP's.

How can someone claim any moral highground for winning when they were cheating to get there?

The voting fraud is undeniable but the post above gives the impression the writer believes that as a result there was no mandate.In fact all election monitors confirmed that the overall result reflected what the Thai people wanted.To suggest that the TRT/PPP achieved success with vote buying/electoral fraud as a decisive factor is only believed by the dimmer bulbs around or those operating at the Enid Blyton end of Thai politics.The much more interesting aspect in the 2007 election was the disgraceful attempt at manipulation by the usual suspects but how the Thai people delivered the military and its elite supporters a sharp slap in the face.Basically the electorate destroyed the generals' plans.

The situation is well summarised by Pasuk/Baker:

"The junta had imagined the army returning to a supervisory role in Thailand's democracy.They had prepared the way with a constitition that weakened the parliament, and a slew of legislation passed in the dying days of the junta's appointed legislature including the Internal Security Act, a bill on computer crimes, a law reducing the PM's role in military promotions, a new Broadcasting Act, and a bill restoring appointment of village heads.Like his counterparts two decades earlier, General Sonthi had contemplated a "promotion" from army chief to premier.

But the generals had failed.Despite reviving the old anti-communist tactics of intimidation of Thaksin's electoral base, destroying his party by court judgements,luring away his former politician supporters with cash and promises, mobilising public money and resources to manipulate the election, and launching a campaign of disinformation,the generals could not prevent the return of a Thaksinite government througfh the ballot box."

This is the background which most Thais readily now understand.When some uninformed or dishonest person suggests vote buying and electoral fraud deny legitimacy, it's clear that they have absolutely no idea of the overall context which Pasuk/Baker neatly encapsulate.So retirning to the thread don't forget that if the red movement is at war with the military, it is a war that the military started.

[scorecard]

The voting fraud is undeniable but the post above gives the impression the writer believes that as a result there was no mandate.

So I guess your saying that ultimately vote buying is OK. How can that attitude ever bring this country or any country into a fully fledged civil society with trust honesty and sincerity?

In fact all election monitors confirmed that the overall result reflected what the Thai people wanted.

All. Care to quote a source, please.

To suggest that the TRT/PPP achieved success with vote buying/electoral fraud as a decisive factor is only believed by the dimmer bulbs around or those operating at the Enid Blyton end of Thai politics.

So now we get to the 'throw sh*t' at those who believe something different.

The much more interesting aspect in the 2007 election was the disgraceful attempt at manipulation by the usual suspects but how the Thai people delivered the military and its elite supporters a sharp slap in the face.

I guess your referring to the fact that the reconstituted TRT bought another election. How does that equate to your claim "the Thai people delivered the military and its elite supporters a sharp slap in the face." And, you say 'the Thai people' which implies all or the vast majority of Thais. This comment is way over the top and in fact not correct anyway.

Basically the electorate destroyed the generals' plans.

In fact the generals said immediately after the 2006 coup and repeatedly that they had no aim of becoming a long-term military dicatorshipo and that they would return the country to an elected government quickly, which they did.

The situation is well summarised by Pasuk/Baker:

Sorry but I personally disagree with a number of political comments these people have made. And I have every right to disagree with them.

"The junta had imagined the army returning to a supervisory role in Thailand's democracy.

In fact the generals said immediately after the 2006 coup and repeatedly that they had no aim of becoming a long-term military dicatorshipo and that they would return the country to an elected government quickly, which they did.

They had prepared the way with a constitition that weakened the parliament, and a slew of legislation passed in the dying days of the junta's appointed legislature including the Internal Security Act, a bill on computer crimes, a law reducing the PM's role in military promotions, a new Broadcasting Act, and a bill restoring appointment of village heads.Like his counterparts two decades earlier,

Weakened the parliament. Sorry cannot agree with this at all, they introduced items which tried to add logical and badly needed controls on parliament and parliamentarians and in many ways bring these items into line with other countries where parliament works for the people and not primarily for the personal lot of parliamentarians.

General Sonthi had contemplated a "promotion" from army chief to premier.

In fact the generals said immediately after the 2006 coup and repeatedly that they had no aim of becoming a long-term military dicatorshipo and that they would return the country to an elected government quickly, which they did.

But the generals had failed.Despite reviving the old anti-communist tactics of intimidation of Thaksin's electoral base, destroying his party by court judgements,luring away his former politician supporters with cash and promises,

Anti-communist ........... Can you share some information on this claim which is totally new to me and doesn't really seem to fit the actual events.

destroying his party by court judgements... Not true, there was a lot of evidence of organized massive vote buying, which is why the court gave theri judgment - they broke the law and they got caught and they got banned.

This is the background which most Thais readily now understand.

Care to explain why you say "most Thais readily understand". I would seriously disgaree with this claim

So retirning to the thread don't forget that if the red movement is at war with the military, it is a war that the military started.

Same stuff again, red shirts / UDD claiming to be the champions of democracy and trying to get thaksin pardoned therefore they attack anything. And as already said, the red shirts don't even really understand what they are fighting for.

[ballpoint]

The voting fraud is undeniable but the post above gives the impression the writer believes that as a result there was no mandate.In fact all election monitors confirmed that the overall result reflected what the Thai people wanted.To suggest that the TRT/PPP achieved success with vote buying/electoral fraud as a decisive factor is only believed by the dimmer bulbs around or those operating at the Enid Blyton end of Thai politics.The much more interesting aspect in the 2007 election was the disgraceful attempt at manipulation by the usual suspects but how the Thai people delivered the military and its elite supporters a sharp slap in the face.Basically the electorate destroyed the generals' plans...

Saying "we would have still won, even if we hadn't have cheated" is not really a concrete base to build your defence argument on. It's a bit like one of the many millionaires that get done for tax evasion saying "well, I'd still be a millionaire, even if I had paid my taxes. Can I go now?" Or Ben Johnson saying "I still would have won the gold, even without the steroids". That may be so, but they cheated. The businessman is jailed. The gold medal was given to Carl Lewis. The 111 executives were banned. It doesn't change a thing that some fellow investor, fan or voter doesn't like it.

Trying to make out that the redshirts are "fighting a war" on the military on behalf of all the poor of the country doesn't ring true. The war is being "fought" by them as Thaksin's proxies. He gives the orders, he controls the purse strings, he has the most to gain or lose. Your argument might carry a little more weight if Thaksin's government hadn't have included all the usual military dinosaurs and Suchinda supporters like Chavalit, Banharn, Narong et al, not to mention the other old power group of Chalerm, Newin etc. If Thaksin was such a breath of fresh air, and had the military so worried, then why did he feel the need to include all these old guard relics in his government and cabinet? If he was so well liked then why didn't he use entirely new candidates in the elections? Surely, if the people were truley voting for him then they would have voted for any candidate he put up, and not the same old faces they always voted for? Thaksin bought the victory, not necessarily by paying voters, but by buying politicians, including most of the largest party at the time, the NAP, in 2001, and the remainder of it in 2005. Why did he need to do that if he was so popular with the people, and why did they still need to cheat in the election? If anyone can come up with a good answer to these questions I'd be interested to hear it.

[Thai at Heart]

Rightly or wrongly, it all depends on whether you believe a couple of hundred baht is the reason why a person votes a certain way, as to whether or not you believe the vote that came after the coup was a measure of the opinions of the Thai population.

I agree with some on here, that I don't believe that a couple of hundred baht wins votes. Now that doesn't mean that the law means that to pay money is illegal and that the relevant people shouldn't have been disqualified.

If you believe that the vote which took place was designed to ensure that the Dems won cleanly, and then lo and behold, the bloody TRT/UDD threw an enormous spanner in the works by being able to form another government, you must also believe that the coup makers must be the dumbest people in the world. They tried their absolute level best to make sure that the Dems won, and they still couldn't get a clear majority, and in the end couldn't form a government.

So we have come a few years, and maybe the tide has moved a little in the Dems favour, but in all honesty, I cannot see them making any real inroads into Thaksin's heartlands of Isaan and the North. Certainly not enough to get a clear majority. But then in the 50 odd years of their existence, they never really gave a dam_n about these places, so I am not surprised that they can't make much headway in only a couple of years.

So what would a result be today? Probably very similar to last time, only this time, Newin and a couple of others are on the other side.

[sbk]

Posts have been deleted. keep it civil, thanks

[eggomaniac]

Scorecard, I would love to to hear your explanation of how the 'banning' of 111 democratically elected politicians would NOT make the voters feel cheated. Then you can go onto explain how 80 years of changing constitutions and military coups, ousting of elected officials would give any democracy minded Thai a great big feeling of warm and fuzzy.

It has been reported by many scholarsd and ploliticians of note, that the Red movement is vastly underestimated, a big mistake on the Yellow side. Thaksin is just a good smokeshow for the real movement. The Reds are making a similar size error in overestimating their Goals.

Anybody that thinks the situation that is brewing is just another round of gang warfare that has been going on for the past 80 years is sorely mistaken. I really, really REALLY hope I, and the other commentators who forecasting a civil war are wrong. Thinking it will happen is way the opposite from hoping it will happen.

There are measures that both sides could and should take to avoid the head on collision of the red and yellow trains.

You have 'studied' Thai politics for 30 years and you really don't think democrats should feel cheated? Come on! [111 'banned' democratically elected politicians]

Why don't you just come and say it. 'let them eat cake'

Democratically elected? The people you are referring to were party list executives of a party that were caught cheating. To say "democratically elected" about people responsible for voting fraud is a laugh.

When individuals are caught for buying votes the penalty is that they are banned ... when party executives are caught then the penalty is banning the party and all party-list MP's.

How can someone claim any moral highground for winning when they were cheating to get there?

Scorecard

So you switched it up from 'just give one example of why the elecorate could feel disgruntled'. The task was to give an example, 'banned politicians' and rixalex. Post #417 added another good example, the crooked politicians who are in power.

Don't tell me, it's now a matter of cheating; tell that to the 100's of thousands of voters who legally voted for those representatives. [Oh ya, they have no right to complain, let them eat cake?]

Now that it is cheating you are so high and mighty about, petition your great leader to repay the 10's millions he got away with from the Thai banks.

I actually believe Thaksin IS a scoundrel and deserves jail time, but then why is your idol allowed to get away 'cheating' 10 of millions. Sondhi was once Thaksin's best buddy and called Thaksin 'the best PM ever'.

They had a lover's quarrel and look where it led.

-------------

Here are some quotes from a real Thai academic, not a 30 in sitsu. Are you going to tell him his conclusion that "political demands of millions of Thais that had gone unheard for decades" never showed in 30 years of inshitsu academic research?

"""Mr Thitinan does not dispute there were negative aspects of Mr Thaksin’s populist administration, which was dogged by accusations of crony capitalism and, in its war on drugs and southern rebels, of extra-judicial killings. But he also points to Mr Thaksin’s introduction of a popular “30-baht healthcare” scheme – allowing a hospital visit for less than a dollar – and his championing of infrastructure and lending policies aimed at improving opportunities for the rural poor. These, he says, began to address the social and political demands of millions of Thais that had gone unheard for decades."""

If you were a real 'academic' you would 'consider' the Red movement might be a real and large force, not just a group of Thasin thugs. Your notion, and is only a 'notion' that the Thai electorate have no reasons and or rights to complain is abysmally out of touch with reality.

Another THING,,, if you are so 'educated', , but has anybody mentioned why the OP Title is very misleading? Before I say so, can you think of why it erroneous. think a minute...

HINT How many readers and posters to this thread think the lines will be drawn between the military and the Reds? Hint, do you really not think a big portion of military leaders have not done the math!?

It will be Reds against Yellows, not the military against the Reds. This is just another example of the underestimation of what is around the corner.

There are ways to stop the impending show down. I have talked to Reds who really like my Plan and Yellows who really like my Plan.

The thing is, there is such a culture of gang warfare, for the past 80 years, in Thai politics, a real Solution might be considered a ruining of the 'fun'.

Edited January 28, 2010 by eggomaniac

[NanLaew]

haha if you don't know by now "why the red shirts feel cheated" then you either

1) don't know anything about Thai Politics or

2)you have a VERY narrow and one-faceted view of Thai Politics.

In fact I have studied Thai politics in situ for about 30 years and I've completed a number of academic studies re Thai history and politics.

....

And, I repeat I still don't know why specifically they say they have been cheated. Please enlighten me.

Because their boss isn't in charge of anything but them.

A utter lack of understanding, or lack of acknowledgment, on democratic principles of

HOW the Thai electoral system functions, has lead them to believe, because they are told so repeatedly,

that their liege lord is really the true leader, but evil has run him off.

Yet, with their help and obedience and sacrifices, he can take back what's rightfully his,

and then he will spread manna from heaven for all who help him.

It's a feudalism fairy tail told to the manipulated masses.

There are two, maybe three sets of modern feudalists going at it,

and each has harnessed different segments of the masses to their aims.

Of course each segment believes ONLY their liege lord is the true sovereign and so act accordingly.

A by product of a rote repetition schooling system and ancient kow tow values,

being played for all they are worth by cynical profiteering politicians and power mongers.

So what you are trying to say is some brands of sycophantic, feudal patronage are better than others?

[ChiangMaiFun]

Yes and CMF thinks the Democrats and the PAD are the same. Guess he missed it when the PAD formed their own political party, and missed the FCCT panel long before that point where spokespersons for the Democrats, the PAD and the TRT argued with each other.

Understand that he appears to view everything in black and white, with no shades of grey, and without addressing points made by those opposing him in a debate, which he also stubbornly avoided during his long-winded vegetarian campaign in the Buddhism forum.

good camapiagn that... standing up for animal rights - I regret none of it - bit churlish of you to raise it though in a political debate - and if you're wrong you're wrong - and you are

[ChiangMaiFun]

Steve, although there are some really good posters on here, they get drowned out by the serial pro-military pro-governemtn posters, just seem to be posting the same, strange, blinkered nonsense. I don't know if they are on the military payroll or have simply been brainwashed , or are perhaps trolls, but I think you know as well as I that any sort of "intelligent" debate with these types is doomed from the beginning. They are just too closed minded.

here, here... and then they 'blackball' all those of us who have opposing views... we are 'stooges', 'Thaksin supporters' and worse 'we don't understand'

[ChiangMaiFun]

haha if you don't know by now "why the red shirts feel cheated" then you either

1) don't know anything about Thai Politics or

2)you have a VERY narrow and one-faceted view of Thai Politics.

I think both apply... if these guys on here who depressingly are pro-yellow and anti-red don't understand why half the country is frustrated and they cannot conceptualize the situation then there is no hope… they bleat ‘it’s legal’ and so is Mugabe and so was Hitler – and what? People feel they have been cheated – they voted red (recently in Chiang Mai they voted a red mayor) and they believe (rightly or wrongly) that they have not got the government they voted for. It’s that simple – now you guys can try and rubbish posts such as mine all you like with abuse and insults – but as John Lennon put it:

‘I’m not the only one’…

And to not recognize that this view exists can only lead to trouble… (unfortunately).

[animatic]

.....

It's a feudalism fairy tail told to the manipulated masses.

There are two, maybe three sets of modern feudalists going at it,

and each has harnessed different segments of the masses to their aims....

A by product of a rote repetition schooling system and ancient kow tow values,

being played for all they are worth by cynical profiteering politicians and power mongers.

So what you are trying to say is some brands of sycophantic, feudal patronage are better than others?

It is ingrained in the regional psyche, it's not something that just disappears in a few generations.

It is beat into Thai minds by most of the school system and their parents and grand parents school system.

Not to mention it's integral to generations of Asians across the region, it's not just Thais.

Kow tow is historically endemic to cultures in the east. Fundamental mind set for most. more or less.

It's not a question of whether one group is more or less feudalistic, or modern, but that

they use the mind set to get their way. And even as one group tries to portray itself as

an anti-feudalistic entity they are STILL manipulating the ancient mind sets to get their way.

But if a group is actually making things better for the people

and not just using those methods for power and profit gain,

then yes, they should be considered better than just cynical pursuit of power.

Edited January 29, 2010 by animatic

[ChiangMaiFun]

It is ingrained in the regional psyche it's not something that just disappears in a few generations.

It is beat into Thai minds by most of the school system and their parents and gransparents school system.

Not to mention generations of Asians across the region, it's not just Thais.

Kow tow is historically endemic to cultures in the east.

It's not a question of whether one group is more or less feudalistic, or modern, but that

they use the mind set to get their way. And even as one group tries to portray itself as

and anti-feudalistic entity they are STILL using the ancient miond sets to get their way.

But if a group is actually making things better for the people

and not just using those methods for power and profit gain,

then yes they should be considered better than just cynical pursuit of power.

But this is no different than other political environments - many people are deferential voters - you can't educate the masses overnight into some form of 'political correctness' it will take decades of paradigm shift – we can only do what we can with what we have got – and to not recognize why (rightly or wrongly) people feel disenfranchised is a grave, grave error (and somewhat arrogant).

[animatic]

haha if you don't know by now "why the red shirts feel cheated" then you either

1) don't know anything about Thai Politics or

2)you have a VERY narrow and one-faceted view of Thai Politics.

I think both apply... if these guys on here who depressingly are pro-yellow and anti-red don't understand why half the country is frustrated and they cannot conceptualize the situation then there is no hope… they bleat ‘it’s legal’ and so is Mugabe and so was Hitler – and what? People feel they have been cheated – they voted red (recently in Chiang Mai they voted a red mayor) and they believe (rightly or wrongly) that they have not got the government they voted for. It’s that simple – now you guys can try and rubbish posts such as mine all you like with abuse and insults – but as John Lennon put it:

‘I’m not the only one’…

And to not recognize that this view exists can only lead to trouble… (unfortunately).

We keep hearing that "half the country is is frustrated".

But they never mention that PPP got about 1/3 of the countries votes, not 1/2.

And they never mention that '1/2 of the country' is NOT frustrated bedcause Thaksin is not in power.

And they never ever talk about the frustrated poor in the other half who got screwed by Thaklsins

vindictive TRT policies of neglect for non TRT districts, or just plain negelect by PPP.

On the contrary 2/3 + or - of the country is finally getting a fairer shake now that TRT is gone.

And we do hear disparaging comments like 'Bleat' oh anti-Thaksin people are sheeple,

lead by the Nation into bad logic. Or spurious comparisons about those supporting non-Thaksin

government is likened to supporting Mugabe and Hitler on simple legality critera.

Hyperbole nothing less.

And this camp blithely ignores a great swath of the country, it's aims and frustrations.

Most of the anti-Thaksin posters always say they are FOR the people of the north to get a better deal.

But we NEVER hear from the pro Thaksin camp about the rest of the countries frustrations about

the Thaksin crew stealing from them and treating them badly. Totally one sided claptrap from this camp.

[ChiangMaiFun]

haha if you don't know by now "why the red shirts feel cheated" then you either

1) don't know anything about Thai Politics or

2)you have a VERY narrow and one-faceted view of Thai Politics.

I think both apply... if these guys on here who depressingly are pro-yellow and anti-red don't understand why half the country is frustrated and they cannot conceptualize the situation then there is no hope… they bleat 'it's legal' and so is Mugabe and so was Hitler – and what? People feel they have been cheated – they voted red (recently in Chiang Mai they voted a red mayor) and they believe (rightly or wrongly) that they have not got the government they voted for. It's that simple – now you guys can try and rubbish posts such as mine all you like with abuse and insults – but as John Lennon put it:

'I'm not the only one'…

And to not recognize that this view exists can only lead to trouble… (unfortunately).

We keep hearing that "half the country is is frustrated".

But they never mention that PPP got about 1/3 of the countries votes, not 1/2.

And they never mention that '1/2 of the country' is NOT frustrated bedcause Thaksin is not in power.

And they never ever talk about the frustrated poor in the other half who got screwed by Thaklsins

vindictive TRT policies of neglect for non TRT districts, or just plain negelect by PPP.

On the contrary 2/3 + or - of the country is finally getting a fairer shake now that TRT is gone.

And we do hear disparaging comments like 'Bleat' oh anti-Thaksin people are sheeple,

lead by the Nation into bad logic. Or spurious comparisons about those supporting non-Thaksin

government is likened to supporting Mugabe and Hitler on simple legality critera.

Hyperbole nothing less.

And this camp blithely ignores a great swath of the country, it's aims and frustrations.

Most of the anti-Thaksin posters always say they are FOR the people of the north to get a better deal.

But we NEVER hear from the pro Thaksin camp about the rest of the countries frustrations about

the Thaksin crew stealing from them and treating them badly. Totally one sided claptrap from this camp.

Good morning! Another day - another polarized debate... I only speak for myself but I am not pro-Thaksin (although not everything under him was from the Devil) but I am pro-Thailand (as I believe we all are) my opinion is just different from yours - in one major respect - I do recognize that the government is technically legal and I only drew the other comparisons (which are odious I agree) to highlight that 'law' is not necessarily 'moral' (and I worked for one of the magic circle law firms for years).

I only point out that all that 'glistens' is not necessarily yellow gold and that it isn’t always ‘better dead than red’. We need a balance and a recognition of others views and maybe a little less 'Thaksin was the Devil and anything is better' approach? if it is not recognized that a great deal of the country 'feels' disenfranchised (let's not quibble with percentages) then it is the road to perdition.