Pm Abhisit Defends His Record On Human Rights

[webfact]

HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH

PM defends his record on human rights

By The Nation

Published on January 25, 2010

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva yesterday defended his government's record on human rights, saying it was determined to uphold universal principles.

He dismissed criticism of his government's record in Human Rights Watch's annual report as lopsided and not consistent with the facts.

The New York-based group blamed the prime minister for failing to honour his pledges to make human rights a priority.

Abhisit countered that he had consistently pushed to advance freedom of expression and the rule of law. He said his performance was judged through a distorted perception.

"I am confident in my government's record on human rights - it is not as bad as being portrayed in the HRW report," he said in his weekly address.

He rejected allegations by HRW, saying his government did not condone harsh suppression of opponents or double standards in law enforcement.

In regard to HRW citing two deaths during the Songkran mayhem, he said the deaths occurred because of clashes between rival crowds and were not a result of the anti-riot crackdown.

The enforcement of emergency rule in 2008 was deemed necessary to restore normalcy after the crowds turned unruly, he said, adding that crowd control measures enforced under the emergency rule and internal security law were designed to deter violence and did not block peaceful protests.

He said the strife-torn South had shown signs of improvement with a downward trend in the numbers of violent incidents.

Commenting on cases related to lese majeste and computer crimes, he said his government had initiated a review mechanism to ensure fairness.

"My government intend to bring culprits to justice based on their motives rather than the politicisation of these cases," he said.

The HRW report may have hastily voiced concern about gagging critics before it was aware of new mechanisms, he added.

"If my government had a poor human rights record as alleged, then we certainly would not have the audacity to join the race for a position in charge of human rights at the United Nations," he said.

Meanwhile, ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra had no involvement in the HRW report, as speculated by certain figures in the government, his legal adviser Noppadon Pattama said.

"The government should heed the criticism and quicky address human rights problems instead of hitting back at Human Rights Watch," he said.

Government leaders were obligated to safeguard the country's reputation and should not try to attribute their poor performance to Thaksin, he said.

HRW coordinator for Thailand Sunai Phasuk said the government should have read the full text of the report instead of making hasty reactions.

The full report had just been submitted at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, he said, noting the text was not as critical as had been made out. It had been misunderstood by the government.

He said the angry rebuttals were unjustified and might have been based on a distorted translation of a summary of the report. The HRW did not fault the government for having "poorer record on human rights", he said.

The report just presented a well-rounded assessment of human rights complaince without apportioning blame, he said, noting a key conclusion was although the government came to power under high expectations, it had yet to show tangible achievements in advancing human rights, as pledged.

-- The Nation 2010-01-25

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[LaoPo]

It's fascinating to conclude that many members clash with each other when a topic is about "Red Shirts", Thaksin or other "sensational" subjects.

But, when it comes to Abhisit's present Government and it's track records...it's deafening silent in here.

One can hear the sound of an eye blink.....

WHAT does that mean ?

...right! People, (read: members) are more interested in showing off their own views and opinions rather than to discuss the present and future of this country and the poor performance of Abhisit's governance.

"Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva yesterday defended his government's record on human rights, saying it was determined to uphold universal principles."

The Government is "determined to UPHOLD Universal Principles"

I rest my case; it's utterly devastating that Abhisit even dares to speak about Universal principles...in Thailand.

LaoPo

[mca]

He could start by making the military accountable for their actions instead of them hiding behind the all encompassing emergency law like at Tak Bai. Of course I was always one to kid myself.........

[monkfish]

Come on he must have expected this !!

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/01/20/thai...ng-human-rights

[animatic]

Its gotta be a tough sell. But he can only lead by example

since the people who do do these things don't listen...

Not sure on the Hmong things reasoning, it is a black eye.

But was it more military or regional expedience to deal

with China and the transport corridor including Laos?

No doubt there was much going on behind scenes to mollify Lao,

and Thailand had to lose some international face to keep regional

things happening with this China to the Indian sea corridor deal

hanging over head...

That's one reading, but likely not the only one. real politik one way or another.

And certainly human rights in Asia is not seen the same way as in the greater west.

The Rhohinga boats was a very bad deal, and heads should have rolled,

but that calls for a normal army to government relationship.

The pols have been so corrupt for so long the army still won't listen.

Yes of course we know they are corrupt too...

Until a real white knight arrives, and survives a good long spell

gradually cleaning house, little can change here in that relationship.

Certainly Thaksins maneuverings this recent past,

strengthens the armys mindset as saviors of the nation,

and not the other way round.

Hence their relative sense of imperviousness.

No doubt there was a bit of;

Keep the good boy in line by not letting him look too good.

Edited January 25, 2010 by animatic

[LaoPo]

Come on he must have expected this !!

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/01/20/thai...ng-human-rights

He knew:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Abhisit-Sets...Po-t331630.html

....also a very quiet afternoon-tea topic, not frequently visited by the pro Abhisit members... they're probably too busy with their crusades against all kinds of other "issues" rather than to open up their vision with Thailand's present and future problems....

LaoPo

[rixalex]

It's fascinating to conclude that many members clash with each other when a topic is about "Red Shirts", Thaksin or other "sensational" subjects.

But, when it comes to Abhisit's present Government and it's track records...it's deafening silent in here.

Whilst i'm likewise disappointed as you are LaoPo that more members don't express their feelings on this important matter, i'm pleased that there's little attempt to apologise or defend the current government from these accusations. Another thread you recently started on this subject, i seem to recall you predicting an influx of denial from those you consider to be Abhisit apologists. Didn't materialise on that thread, and i doubt it will do so on this. That's because your assumption that those speaking out against the reds / Thaksin must be therefore aligned / supporting of PAD/Yellows/Democrats, doesn't necessarily prove to be the case.

Had this thread of yours highlighted a human rights report concerning Thaksin's period in office, the thread would already have been full of people telling us - yourself included no doubt - how things weren't as bad as made out, and how other governments had commited worse, blah blah balh...

Viewed in that light, a deafening silence might be considered as progress of sorts, wouldn't you say? I would.

[LaoPo]

It's fascinating to conclude that many members clash with each other when a topic is about "Red Shirts", Thaksin or other "sensational" subjects.

But, when it comes to Abhisit's present Government and it's track records...it's deafening silent in here.

1. Whilst i'm likewise disappointed as you are LaoPo that more members don't express their feelings on this important matter, i'm pleased that there's little attempt to apologise or defend the current government from these accusations.

2. Another thread you recently started on this subject, i seem to recall you predicting an influx of denial from those you consider to be Abhisit apologists. Didn't materialise on that thread, and i doubt it will do so on this. That's because your assumption that those speaking out against the reds / Thaksin must be therefore aligned / supporting of PAD/Yellows/Democrats, doesn't necessarily prove to be the case.

3. Had this thread of yours highlighted a human rights report concerning Thaksin's period in office, the thread would already have been full of people telling us - yourself included no doubt - how things weren't as bad as made out, and how other governments had commited worse, blah blah balh...

4. Viewed in that light, a deafening silence might be considered as progress of sorts, wouldn't you say? I would.

I'm pleased you stepped in.

To answer your message, as follows:

1. I agree with you.

2. Which thread are you referring to ?.....PLEASE do not put words in my mouth like your words: "That's because your assumption...." since you don't know WHAT kind of assumptions I have or not..... and for the rest: see #3:

3. Please: try to leave "Thaksin" out of the discussion for once, will you please?; that's the sickening problem on this entire forum.

His name is spoiling every normal discussion and it's -again- not even possible to discuss the TOPIC AT HAND: Abhisit Defends His Record On Human Rights without his (Thaksin's) name entering the topic, this time by you and Animatic, a few posts back.

Can't you even discuss a normal topic at hand without T's name ?

But to bite your hook anyway: NO, you are completely wrong about me if you think that I would have supported Thaksin IF there would have been a (same) report on Human Rights during his administrations.

I have NEVER said nor written that I am or was a supporter of the Reds cs Thaksin.

That's YOUR observation because YOU think so; I never said so, but I am on the sideline and do NOT take part in this absurd manhunt by some members on ThaiVisa and a series of articles by The Nation.

4. I strongly disagree;

I think Human Rights is an extremely important issue in and for Thailand (face in the outside world), now, in the past and in the future, and it shows that Khun Abhisit is a puppet-on-a-string and not powerful enough to step up and stop human abuse in his own country since it's the military who decides if there's abuse on Human Rights or not. He's a speechless and "deaf-and-dumb" man if you know what I mean.

He's a weak leader and NO I think the deafening silence says more about the Pro Abhisit members rather than the deafening silence itself.

But, thank you for stepping in.

LaoPo

[Fishbucket]

This guy abisit has been outed for what he is, and thats a "human rights abuser"

If this Human rights Watch group are serious, as soon as Abisit the abuser lands in new York they will arrest him and charge him with the abuse.

They cannot make accusations of this magnitude and then let him walk away to carry on the abuse.

What a loathsome character this guy abisit really is, now defending the indefensible.

Good that he is going to the new york so to advertise more himself to the world as a human rights abuser.

[monkfish]

What HRW fail to understand is that he can't do anything...

Those responsible are to powerful and if he tried to bring them to justice he would end up in the same boat as you know who.

[monkfish]

"If my government had a poor human rights record as alleged, then we certainly would not have the audacity to join the race for a position in charge of human rights at the United Nations," he said.

I think he needs to work on the CV a bit more before that day comes.

[LaoPo]

This guy abisit has been outed for what he is, and thats a "human rights abuser"

If this Human rights Watch group are serious,as soon as Abisit the abuser lands in new York they will arrest him and charge him with the abuse.

They cannot make accusations of this magnitude and then let him walk away to carry on the abuse.

What a loathsome character this guy abisit really is, now defending the indefensible.

Good that he is going to the new york so to advertise more himself to the world as a human rights abuser.

I don't think so.

A politician like him -he's the PM of an important Asian country- can't be arrested. He has political immunity and to be fair, correctly so.

LaoPo

[mca]

Those responsible are too powerful and if he tried to bring them to justice he would end up in the same boat as you know who.

To me this will always be the way here. It doesn't matter who's sitting in the PM's seat having come from the people. The people who need their powers neutered don't have anyone against them with the power to cut their balls off. People who've tried have soon learned that when it comes to using their weapons the powers that be aren't particularly fussy about who's in their sights.

To use a perhaps crap analogy. I bought a new phone last week. My young daughter wanted to look at it. I gave it to her and when I saw she was perhaps "playing" with it a bit too hard I said "OK that's enough. Give it back to daddy"

Welcome to a non-military appointed government in Thailand.

Edited January 26, 2010 by mca

[rixalex]

2. Which thread are you referring to

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Abhisit-Sets...Po-t331630.html

Please: try to leave "Thaksin" out of the discussion for once, will you please?; that's the sickening problem on this entire forum.

Can't you even discuss a normal topic at hand without T's name ?

Seems that you can't.

You'd do well to take your own advice Mr LaoPo.

The very first reply to the OP in this thread was yours. How long did it take for you to mention the "T" word? Your very first sentence was all it took. That was before any of the so called "anit-Thaksin brigade" had had a chance to mention him.

I have NEVER said nor written that I am or was a supporter of the Reds cs Thaksin.

So stop with all the huffing, puffing and flapping the moment anyone speaks out against the Reds and Thaksin. Yes, i know you think it's disproportionate and there are other bad guys out there worthy of attention/scrutiny. Fine. So channel your efforts into highlighting such cases and stop worrying about those who want to have their say about the Reds and Thaksin.

[animatic]

When was a government of Thailand NOT outed as human rights abusers in the history of Human Rights Watch?

The standards are western and the reality is SE Asian.

Some years not as badly, but this year the Army went overboard a bit more than last.

Thaksin as CEO of Thailand and leader during Tak bai and the War on Drugs got MUCH worse ratings....

And lets not forget post Viet Nam war and the bvoat people debacle, Thailand smelled nothing of roses then either.

So really trying to single out Abhisit is a job for Sysyphus.

[Asa]

Thailand under Abhisit administration seems to earn a bad reputation against world human right bodies. First the Burmese Rohingas, and recently the repatriation of the Hmong to Laos. Both cases teh Governmetn involved Armed forces, which further their suspect that the fnal and real power rest in the barracks instead of the Government house. Every big incidents always involved men in uniforms, while most democratic countries would use immegration laws and handled by civil servants and coastguards not soldiers. Banking often on the top guns will never help clear his new reputation, acting agaist human right spirit.

[SomTumTiger]

I agree that the long history of political incompetance has led to a disconnect between the sayers and the doers. Government can say it upholds these rights, but if the people who are actually doing the things are not listening, its just talk. It will take a long time to clean up, and a few years of stability would go along way towards helping in that end.

[CLOD]

Abisit himself is the Prime Minister, although appointed never elected.

Abisit himself is the leader of the government, although appointed never elected.

Abisit himself is responsible for the human rights abuse of the government and the country's institutions.

Abisit is a serial Human Rights Abuser .

[LaoPo]

2. Which thread are you referring to

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Abhisit-Sets...Po-t331630.html

Please: try to leave "Thaksin" out of the discussion for once, will you please?; that's the sickening problem on this entire forum.

Can't you even discuss a normal topic at hand without T's name ?

Seems that you can't.

You'd do well to take your own advice Mr LaoPo.

The very first reply to the OP in this thread was yours. How long did it take for you to mention the "T" word? Your very first sentence was all it took. That was before any of the so called "anit-Thaksin brigade" had had a chance to mention him.

I have NEVER said nor written that I am or was a supporter of the Reds cs Thaksin.

So stop with all the huffing, puffing and flapping the moment anyone speaks out against the Reds and Thaksin. Yes, i know you think it's disproportionate and there are other bad guys out there worthy of attention/scrutiny. Fine. So channel your efforts into highlighting such cases and stop worrying about those who want to have their say about the Reds and Thaksin.

You said it was MY topic; it wasn't. It was posted by Webfact.

Touché about mentioning the T word first.

I will stop "huffing, puffing and flapping" when I want; not when you tell me; The same counts for your telling me to "channel" my efforts, OK?

Yes, it is indeed disproportionate and as I already mentioned it is sickening after all those years (since he's gone) that members like yourself are still (s)talking (about) T.

As if there's nothing else in the world. The time and energy you chaps put into this goal is unbelievable and the drive and disgust speaks from every single message.

It has become a notorious manhunt à la McCarthy and his so called McCharthyism in the '40's and '50's of last century.

We could call it Thaksinism here. For the sake of Thailand I'm happy you guys are not Judges* in this country.

Every single news item, mostly published by The Nation, is followed up by some hardcore members to step in again to follow suit and attack and attack over and over again.

Holy Moly, don't you guys have nothing else to do?

I wonder if members like these, in their final moment on earth, will let go their last breath and whisper..."Mr. T. where are you"?

Obsessiveness springs to mind.

* http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Brave-Hm-Kin...es-t333098.html

I certainly hope and pray that Thailand's Judges listen to HM and "..conduct their duties with strict neutrality and adhere to principles of justice and reality."

LaoPo

[animatic]

PS. Human Rights Watch may be in New York,

but it has absolutely ZERO AUTHORITY to have ANYONE arrested on arrival in New York.

Yes, they are very serious and their gig is PUBLICITY for their views on Human Rights,

I don't disagree with most of their assessments, even those a bit more ivory tower

optimistic and Utopian but I very much doubt they will EVER,have arrest authority

like a sovereign nation does.

[animatic]

Abisit himself is the Prime Minister, although appointed never elected.

Abisit himself is the leader of the government, although appointed never elected.

Abisit himself is responsible for the human rights abuse of the government and the country's institutions.

Abisit is a serial Human Rights Abuser .

Elected twice once by his constituency to MP

and once by the other Minsters of Parliament to PM.

The army, or elements within it, seems to be the actual perpetrators,

not Abhisit who is not reported to have issued ANY orders for these incidents to happen.

Abhisit who has said many times he is against this type of behavior.

Edited January 26, 2010 by animatic

[rixalex]

I will stop "huffing, puffing and flapping" when I want; not when you tell me; The same counts for your telling me to "channel" my efforts, OK?

Don't like being told how to feel eh? Why is it then you spend so much of your time on here doing precisely that?

Yes, it is indeed disproportionate and as I already mentioned it is sickening after all those years

You are sickened by people wanting to see Thaksin brought to justice! What a bizarre thing to feel sickened about.

The time and energy you chaps put into this goal is unbelievable and the drive and disgust speaks from every single message.

I'm picking up a lot of disgust from you funnily enough.

For the sake of Thailand I'm happy you guys are not Judges* in this country.

In case you have forgotten the judges have already had their say. Some people don't want to listen though.

[LaoPo]

Note to Rixalex: there were too many "quotes" so I answer you as follows:

* I don't tell people what to do. YOU do.

* Yes, but you and me, being Farang, have no say in Thai Justice, that's why it's sickening of Farang to obsessively follow suit; as if Thai Justice would ever listen to those Farang.

* That's your problem not mine.

* If "some people" don't want to listen why did HM especially address his speech to Thailand's Judges*** ?

*** Just in case you or others want to read what HM said:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Brave-Hm-Kin...es-t333098.html

LaoPo

[animatic]

You say you are glad some of us are not the judges.

Well judge is much the same as juror in the Thaksin trial, just better versed in law.

I have been on a serious jury double attempted homicide trial

and was instrumental in securing a conviction leading to an extremely long jail sentence.

Based on facts and logic; 19 of 19 counts the duos leader was found guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

His partner got off on ONE count, also because of me specifically, 2 hours arguing to LET him

off because doubt existed, but knowing he still was was jointly culpable for the partners crimes.

We did not know at the time, the leader had been out on parole for 3 months

from killing his own brother over $10. And also causing a fellow inmate to lose half his nose.

A true amoral whacko, just short of certifiably insane, but no quite.

But the facts and utter fairness, put a disgusting cretin back behind bars permanently.

And his idiot partner for somewhat less, since he didn't instigate violence without a doubt.

So later I was contacted by the NYC prosecutor, after she spoke with the jury foreman

who attended the sentencing and commented that I should have been the jury foreman,

and then was asked to explain this comment.

I was then asked to come for a small private meeting a month after the sentencing,

and actually offered a job in the DA's office helping prepare cases to be argued from a jurors point of view.

I declined, but I was told I should have been a judge or a trial lawyer.

I can have an opinion and yet judge fairly, from known or allowed facts.

Not all facts are always known, you deal with the information you can get.

Edited January 26, 2010 by animatic

[LaoPo]

You say you are glad some of us are not the judges.

Well judge is much the same as juror in the Thaksin trial, just better versed in law.

Not all facts are always known, you deal with the information you can get.

Well, one can put as many title-tags on his/her shoulder pads how he/she likes but it will never change the fact that you are guest in a foreign country and not a Thai Judge nor Juror.

The same as I would never be(come) a Judge nor Juror in the US or any other Western or Asian country. In fact, in my own country we don't even have a Jury system.

You are fully entitled to your own opinion and you show so on a daily basis but I remain with my statement: I'm glad you chaps are no Thai Judges as I come now to my other observation where I fully agree with you:

indeed, not all facts are always known, also not in Thaksin's case as there's probably a lot under the Thai velvet Elite blanket

That's why all of us should always be careful with our judgements, whenever and where ever.

LaoPo

[Oberkommando]

Thaksin as CEO of Thailand and leader during Tak bai and the War on Drugs got MUCH worse ratings....

Care to qualify this statement with facts?

Thanks in advance.

[animatic]

"Thaksin as CEO of Thailand and leader during Tak bai and the War on Drugs got MUCH worse ratings...".

Care to qualify this statement with facts?

Thanks in advance.

How about this

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/english/docs/200...thaila16544.htm

HRW concerned about Thaksin’s ownership in Premier League Team, Manchester City

Letter to the Premier League's Chief Executive, Richard Scudamore

July 30, 2007

Mr. Richard Scudamore Chief Executive The Premier League

Re: Purchase of Manchester City Football Club by Thaksin Shinawatra

Dear Mr. Scudamore:

Human Rights Watch is an independent, non-governmental human rights organization based in New York, with offices in many other cities, including London.l

“It Was Like Suddenly My Son No Longer Existed”: Enforced Disappearances in Thailand’s Southern Border Provinces

Report, March 20, 2007

Not Enough Graves: The War on Drugs, HIV/AIDS, and Violations of Human Rights

Report, June 8, 2004

The Premier League's response to HRW's letter

Image, July 30, 2007

Free Email Newsletter

We write regarding your approval of the sale of Manchester City Football Club to Thaksin Shinawatra, the former Prime Minister of Thailand.....

In the case of Mr. Thaksin, we have condemned the coup that ousted Mr. Thaksin from power last September and continue to be critical of the military-backed government. However, our research and that of other credible organizations shows that Mr. Thaksin’s time in office from 2001 to 2006 was characterized by numerous extrajudicial executions, “disappearances,” illegal abductions, arbitrary detentions, torture and other mistreatment of persons in detention, and attacks on media freedoms.

The most disturbing period of Mr. Thaksin’s rule was his “war on drugs,” in which Thai security forces routinely committed serious violations of human rights. By his government’s own count, more than 2,275 people were killed in the three months after the campaign was launched on 1 February, 2003.

Or maybe this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/t...ity/6918718.stm

The allegations against Thaksin are that, during his time as Thai prime minister, he:

# Presided over extrajudicial killings during the notorious "war on drugs". HRW says 2,500 people were killed during one three-month period at the start of 2003.

# Told the Thai military to employ any means to suppress an insurgency in the south of Thailand.

# Suppressed the Thai media.

Thaksin's lawyer, Noppadol, countered: "As far as I am concerned, he (Thaksin) has never instructed any public officer to execute a drug dealer.

We will be able to prove his innocence after the general election when we are sure our client will get a fair trial

Noppadol Pattama

Thaksin's lawyer

Of course we know Thaksin decided he couldn't buy a fair trial after he came back,

even with his PPP boys running the country.... into the ground we saw in retrospect.

Or maybe Amnesty Internations is a good reference too, while he was still in office.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/ASA39/015/2004

Thailand: Open letter to Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra

Index Number: ASA 39/015/2004

Date Published: 25 November 2004

Categories: Asia And The Pacific, Thailand

In this open letter, Amnesty International welcomes the establishment of a commission to investigate events of 25 October 2004 that led to the deaths of at least 87 protestors in Tak Bai, Narathiwat Province. The organisation urges that internationally established principles for the independent, impartial, competent and effective investigation of alleged human rights violations are used and the victims of alleged violations are guaranteed access to judicial remedies. The letter also renews calls for independent investigations into the significantly high number of killings during the "war on drugs" in 2003, and into deaths that resulted from security forces' suppression of suspected insurgents in 2004.

Looks a whole lot worse to me.

I don't really need to put 10 Google pages of sitations for this stuff up.

Edited January 26, 2010 by animatic

[monkfish]

Well looks like this turned into a Thaksin bashing thread already, although its about Mr Abhisit

Considering this is his first year in office I wonder what his CV will look like after 10 years?

If he is unable to shake of the retired generals I think not good.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/12/31/blot...nitarian-record

[animatic]

Monk it was by request.

I only had said it wasn't as bad this times as before.

And not specifically meaning Thaksin in many of those times.

But I had to prove it to someone.

[CLOD]

Same dilemna as abisit the abuser, he has to "prove it" at the Human Rights Watch.