Buying A Car At The Grey Market

[dr_lucas]

BMW cancels grey market warranty

http://bit.ly/caWSJC

Yes, I already mentioned the warranty issue several time above, I don't care about it anyway.

Others posted that customs may seize the car after it has already been cleared from customs, sorry to be so skeptical but this sounds quite impossible to me as I've never heard of such a thing happen anywhere in the world and I certainly haven't met anyone here who such a thing happened to him personally with a car or a bike. Has anyone?

Any other issues/risks I should take into account?

Took me 3 months to get my FULLY LEGAL bike returned.. Many people I know got fuc_ked..

Your not on Kansas any more Dorothy.. The customs office is possibly the most corrupt in Thailand.. And if they think they can screw you over, do you really think they wont because ??? Its not fair ??

LoL! You're not in Pandora either!

Seriously now, could you please give full details of your bike incident? Summarizing it to 1 sentence doesn't really explain what happened.

[LivinLOS]

The bike was being worked on prior to a sale to me.. The customs swooped all the service places on phuket taking all bikes if a book could not be produced on the spot.. They took in 100's.. Pertinent info was all grey import (almost all big bikes as there was no main dealer sales in the past) had to have page 18 excise tax info listed. If not BIG fines and 3% of the value they assess the bike your average harley was 50k plus to get it released and for many people THEY STILL DIDNT ADD THE PAGE 18 TAX info !!! They just stole the 50k !! LEaving the people in the exact same position for next crackdown. 50k cash and no receipts !! Nice !!

My bike was a 1995.. A lawyer working to get 10's of these bikes found out the law is applicable from 97 to current.. But would they give my 95 bike back ?? hel_l no.. No matter the rules, like the mafia it was fuc_k you pay me, we have it and we are the customs office, what ya gonna do.. Go call the police ??

Luckily for me the sellers wife is a legal PA or similar, goes to dinner with the local judges, knows all the islands lawyers etc.. It took her weeks to get it released then when we went to do the name change, they refused based on the tax info again even tho we proved the tax info wasnt due.. DMV said they would not transfer name until customs wrote a letter saying it was OK, customs said it was OK verbally and refused to put anything in writing.

3 months of a Thai lawyer working on them and we got a name change done, with some money paid under the table, to a Thai name (my wifes)..

I have a thick file of all my records to defend if this happens again.. But I wasnt alone this happened to maybe 50 bikes in one week.. Nice little earner !!

[dr_lucas]

And you're saying this happened in a case of a perfectly LEGAL bike, so based on this - they can also do it in a case of a perfectly legal car. Say I buy a new BMW Z4 from BMW official dealer, they can do the same to me, can't they?

Edited January 29, 2010 by dr_lucas

[LivinLOS]

No thats twisting what I am saying.. It applies for GREY MARKET / GREY IMPORT !!! In case its escaped your attention we dont have big bike dealers in Thailand until the last coupel of years, we still dont have legal hondas or suzukis or or or, we only got Kawasaki and Yammie in the last year or two, KTM this week. 90% of big bikes on the road are grey imports. If you buy a bike from Kawasaki now its not a grey import, the main dealer has done the tax payments, and no bribes were taken to pass emissions or get it put on the road.

Its one thing to mess around with grey market bikes, costing 100 - 300k baht.. (Theres a poster in the bike section lost his CBR600 to Thai coppers the same way) but to play this game with 3 - 5 mil ??

Sure maybe it works, but be aware maybe it doesnt.. And the rules now might not be the rules tomorrow and Thais do apply stuff retroactive and make the current owners pay for the sins of the previous owners or importers.

Edited January 29, 2010 by LivinLOS

[katabeachbum]

No thats twisting what I am saying.. It applies for GREY MARKET / GREY IMPORT !!! In case its escaped your attention we dont have big bike dealers in Thailand until the last coupel of years, we still dont have legal hondas or suzukis or or or, we only got Kawasaki and Yammie in the last year or two, KTM this week. 90% of big bikes on the road are grey imports. If you buy a bike from Kawasaki now its not a grey import, the main dealer has done the tax payments, and no bribes were taken to pass emissions or get it put on the road.

Its one thing to mess around with grey market bikes, costing 100 - 300k baht.. (Theres a poster in the bike section lost his CBR600 to Thai coppers the same way) but to play this game with 3 - 5 mil ??

Sure maybe it works, but be aware maybe it doesnt.. And the rules now might not be the rules tomorrow and Thais do apply stuff retroactive and make the current owners pay for the sins of the previous owners or importers.

government and manuafctorer approved importers have issued reg book slightly different from grey importers, as I recall position 5 in 1st page describes it. they cant backfire on taxes

grey market imports are supposed to have this on page 18 of reg book. not seen often, most dont want to display low invoice, 2999cc and 219 hp on lambos, bmw or ferrari.

if you dont mind risking picking up a tax bill later and dont mind paying all repairs yourself, go get it

a computer to read OBD are availbale in many non authorised bmw garages. edit. in BKK only

Edited January 29, 2010 by katabeachbum

[rixalex]

About 6.5mil Baht, owned for 8 years, covered 80k miles. Sold it for 300k Baht & was happy to get rid of it at that price.

Ouch!

[stingray]

I don't care about it anyway

I don't care about warranty for my Civic but for BMW, especially expensive one, it can be very important.

Anyway if you don't care about service cost there is no problem at all

I meant I don't care about the official BMW importer's warranty. If you read the link you posted - TSL (and I assume BRG too) service their own customers anyway...

Wife's cousin bought a 5 Series BMW through one of these groups. Imported into Thailand as parts, assembled here and sold with "warranty".

Absolutley everything that could possibly go wrong with the car did, and hardly anything was covered by warranty. All repairs were paid for in cash.

From memory some of the things that went wrong:

Radiator burst, over temperature light didn't activate, engine over-heated and had to undergo some major repair.

Automatic transmission had major problems.

Central locking and power windows never worked correctly.

AirCon never worked correctly, if at all.

Problem with the chassis.

Numerous other in-explicable rattles and noises.

Car ended up sitting in the garage for a couple of years because no-one wanted to drive it for fear of not being able to return home. Was sold for Satangs to the Baht.

Note: I don't think there was ever an issue about the car's registration, however, this was around 1999 & I don't think the police were diligent checking these things.

12 years ago they "imported' many cars as part and they got a blue book. But in one of the backpages in the book was mentioned that the car came in parts and put together in Thailand. Those cars where legal, but without value. But after that they changed the law and the loopwhole was closed. Today it's not the same anymore. But be avare (what i saw) some of the expensive cars could be double registered. That's mean, what sometimes could happen is that 2 cars got the same registration plates and the idenitacl book (one of them will be a fake).

[LivinLOS]

12 years ago they "imported' many cars as part and they got a blue book. But in one of the backpages in the book was mentioned that the car came in parts and put together in Thailand. Those cars where legal, but without value. But after that they changed the law and the loopwhole was closed. Today it's not the same anymore.

Strange because thats exactly how it works still with bikes..

Page 18 shows the tax information on parts bikes.. Same with engine swaps..

[soundman]

About 6.5mil Baht, owned for 8 years, covered 80k miles. Sold it for 300k Baht & was happy to get rid of it at that price.

Ouch!

Yep, nearly a new Fortuner per year in repairs & depriciation.

[dr_lucas]

But be avare (what i saw) some of the expensive cars could be double registered. That's mean, what sometimes could happen is that 2 cars got the same registration plates and the idenitacl book (one of them will be a fake).

And how can I find out if this is the case with a car I going to buy?

[LivinLOS]

But be avare (what i saw) some of the expensive cars could be double registered. That's mean, what sometimes could happen is that 2 cars got the same registration plates and the idenitacl book (one of them will be a fake).

And how can I find out if this is the case with a car I going to buy?

You pretty much cant.. This isnt like somewhere that you can go to a data check on its history.. And grey import books are notoriously vague, theres just so many aspects of importation, testing and registration that bribes can (in fact almost must) be used to lower the costs..

[lingnoi34]

Dr_lucas, you seem to be pretty resistant to advice.

So just go ahead and buy the Z4. It will make a good read on TV some day when "something" happens to it. I'll stay tuned.

Please complete the following: "if it seems to good to be true, ...."

LN

[dr_lucas]

Dr_lucas, you seem to be pretty resistant to advice.

So just go ahead and buy the Z4. It will make a good read on TV some day when "something" happens to it. I'll stay tuned.

Please complete the following: "if it seems to good to be true, ...."

LN

What a nonsense. I am just interested in real facts that can help me decide, not disinformation.

Please complete the following: "If you have nothing nice to say..."

Edited January 29, 2010 by dr_lucas

[lingnoi34]

Plenty of people have given you real facts. How much more real facts do you want?

Buy the car and you will have the realest facts of all!!!

LN

[dr_lucas]

Well, I am sure some of the responses were facts and some were disinformation. Nevertheless I appreciate all the people participating and trying to help. This is an open forum and I am sure it will help not only me, but many other readers. Reading through all responses help decide what to do and separate the better advices from the not so good advices and info. Based on your nick I am not sure if you are Thai or simply a 34 years old farang with a mentality of a small monkey (no offense, bro, you named yourself, not me), but in any case "Jai yen yen" is the best thing I can tell you. If you don't like the discussion or don't have anything useful to add to it - please stay out of it and let us adults discuss.

[lingnoi34]

Well, aren't you just a real smart one...thai language skills and possibly a doctor to boot! Makes for a nice change with all the SAS and other special forces that usually abound.

Anyway, just post a pic of your new Z4 when you have it.

LN

[stingray]

About 6.5mil Baht, owned for 8 years, covered 80k miles. Sold it for 300k Baht & was happy to get rid of it at that price.

Ouch!

Yep, nearly a new Fortuner per year in repairs & depriciation.

Yes, but if you ever owned and drove a RR, you are never happy with a Fortuner. You can't compare those two cars. I owned RR's in Switzerland, the classic ones. Only if you owned one you know the difference. I had my RR for years without any majoir problem. BTW it was the first and only SUV you could buy at that time, 25 years ago, and it was "bulled proof", not so fast, but very strong.

[katabeachbum]

About 6.5mil Baht, owned for 8 years, covered 80k miles. Sold it for 300k Baht & was happy to get rid of it at that price.

Ouch!

Yep, nearly a new Fortuner per year in repairs & depriciation.

Yes, but if you ever owned and drove a RR, you are never happy with a Fortuner. You can't compare those two cars. I owned RR's in Switzerland, the classic ones. Only if you owned one you know the difference. I had my RR for years without any majoir problem. BTW it was the first and only SUV you could buy at that time, 25 years ago, and it was "bulled proof", not so fast, but very strong.

I have had Range Rovers, the last one a 1993. Faster than Fortuner, but thirsty

and I was happy with my 2005 Fortuner diesel.

RR have insane prices here, hard to find spareparts and not easy to have repaired

[stingray]

Yes, you rigtht about that. I bought mine, used, in Switzerland for 8'000$ in that time. It was a 85, with the 2 SU carbs on it. but the confort, the high possitin on the seats, the real wood and the V8 was a big plus to me. I know it's thirsty and overhere in Thaialnd it's hard to fint a decent one. I had one RR 1975 here as well and i changed the engine to a 1UZ V8 and land cruiser 4x4 gearbox. All problem was gone and i would say it was the Best SUV i ever hat, therefore i could not satisfied with a Fortuner. The problem to me is, the fortuner is a plastc car, like all today and it have only a 4 cylinder engine. I know they run not bad, but the V8 sound's better to my. And the price. A nice fortuner cost 1.5 million and is a nice supject for theft. A used RR cost about 500 to 600'k, maybe a classic one, than do a engineswap for about 100'k to a 1UZ V8 and you got for less than 700'k the best SUV, and noone would steal it

[bateman75]

To the OP... On a positive note... I bought a new Jaguar from one of these grey importers last year. Very happy with the car until it started to get a whine on the differential.

I was obviously concerned as I knew Jaguar Thailand would offer no warranty.... but..

I took it back to the supplier who promptly ordered a complete new diff from the UK (showed me the invoice, over 200k)

Car was fixed in a month and I'm very happy again. (and I have the old diff in my drive for the sceptics!)

Not all car dealers are the same.. and I for one would buy a grey market vehicle again.

[rixalex]

The problem to me is, the fortuner is a plastc car, like all today and it have only a 4 cylinder engine.

It might be plastic but it'll do thousands and thousands of miles without missing a heart-beat. I love cars with character as much as the next man, and there's no doubt a RR has more than a Fortuner, but the novelty of character cars wears off pretty darn quick when they let you down - which they invariably do.

(Sorry for going off-topic)

[blakegeee]

To the OP... On a positive note... I bought a new Jaguar from one of these grey importers last year. Very happy with the car until it started to get a whine on the differential.

I was obviously concerned as I knew Jaguar Thailand would offer no warranty.... but..

I took it back to the supplier who promptly ordered a complete new diff from the UK (showed me the invoice, over 200k)

Car was fixed in a month and I'm very happy again. (and I have the old diff in my drive for the sceptics!)

Not all car dealers are the same.. and I for one would buy a grey market vehicle again.

I also buy grey market bikes. Yes you need to be very careful. Check everything, tax page, serial numbers, writing in thai in green book. And make the deal based on checking everything with the DMV before paying.

A lot of this info is misinformation as you have mentioned. "hundreds of bikes taken away in this identical situation". TOTAL BS! I am sure the odd legally imported bike may have been mixed into this deal (until proven to be legal) but not hundreds. The masses of these bikes being taken away were "illegally imported" usually without a registration, green book or plates. NOT the same situation at all.

Also, about duplicate cars with same registation. This also happens with domestic cars. If a car is stolen, they need to get a new registration so they duplicate that of another car. It is not necessarily anything to do with imported vehicles at all.

As I said, it is risky business but it can work out if you are careful. Don't rush the sale. Check everything with a trusted Thai, and have the DMV change the name and check everything before completing the sale.

On another note, a Thai garage putting together an expensive complex car like this from parts is a very scary thought. I would definitely look into that and avoid it if there is any sign of this at all. They are not known for quality workmanship.

[LivinLOS]

A lot of this info is misinformation as you have mentioned. "hundreds of bikes taken away in this identical situation". TOTAL BS! I am sure the odd legally imported bike may have been mixed into this deal (until proven to be legal) but not hundreds. The masses of these bikes being taken away were "illegally imported" usually without a registration, green book or plates. NOT the same situation at all.

Simply not true >30 were taken in one day on Phuket..

The total number is easily 100's.. Until last year no one knew anything about the page 18 tax requirements, in fact most still dont know anything about them.

The illegal bikes deserve all they get, but the ones where importers paid bribes to not pay the excise tax, and the DMV forgot to move excise tax info from book to book, the end user shouldnt be at fault.

Do not confuse unpaid excise tax and illegal grey books.. If you dont know about it, then read about it.. It happened !!

[LivinLOS]

http://www.phuketgazette.net/dailynews/ind...2&display=1

Over the last three months, some 400 persons have been caught with motorcycles that evaded the excise.

On Phuket alone !! >400

[katabeachbum]

A lot of this info is misinformation as you have mentioned. "hundreds of bikes taken away in this identical situation". TOTAL BS! I am sure the odd legally imported bike may have been mixed into this deal (until proven to be legal) but not hundreds. The masses of these bikes being taken away were "illegally imported" usually without a registration, green book or plates. NOT the same situation at all.

Simply not true >30 were taken in one day on Phuket..

The total number is easily 100's.. Until last year no one knew anything about the page 18 tax requirements, in fact most still dont know anything about them.

The illegal bikes deserve all they get, but the ones where importers paid bribes to not pay the excise tax, and the DMV forgot to move excise tax info from book to book, the end user shouldnt be at fault.

Do not confuse unpaid excise tax and illegal grey books.. If you dont know about it, then read about it.. It happened !!

and they had registration, greenbook and plates. the owners thought they where legal, some of them where legal, but owner unable to prove it 10 years later

[blakegeee]

A lot of this info is misinformation as you have mentioned. "hundreds of bikes taken away in this identical situation". TOTAL BS! I am sure the odd legally imported bike may have been mixed into this deal (until proven to be legal) but not hundreds. The masses of these bikes being taken away were "illegally imported" usually without a registration, green book or plates. NOT the same situation at all.

Simply not true >30 were taken in one day on Phuket..

The total number is easily 100's.. Until last year no one knew anything about the page 18 tax requirements, in fact most still dont know anything about them.

The illegal bikes deserve all they get, but the ones where importers paid bribes to not pay the excise tax, and the DMV forgot to move excise tax info from book to book, the end user shouldnt be at fault.

Do not confuse unpaid excise tax and illegal grey books.. If you dont know about it, then read about it.. It happened !!

and they had registration, greenbook and plates. the owners thought they where legal, some of them where legal, but owner unable to prove it 10 years later

Where do you see that they had greenbook and plates? This article only talks about taking bikes away that evaded tax. There is no mention of these bikes already being registered and the bikes in the photos don't appear to have number plates.

[LivinLOS]

A lot of this info is misinformation as you have mentioned. "hundreds of bikes taken away in this identical situation". TOTAL BS! I am sure the odd legally imported bike may have been mixed into this deal (until proven to be legal) but not hundreds. The masses of these bikes being taken away were "illegally imported" usually without a registration, green book or plates. NOT the same situation at all.

Simply not true >30 were taken in one day on Phuket..

The total number is easily 100's.. Until last year no one knew anything about the page 18 tax requirements, in fact most still dont know anything about them.

The illegal bikes deserve all they get, but the ones where importers paid bribes to not pay the excise tax, and the DMV forgot to move excise tax info from book to book, the end user shouldnt be at fault.

Do not confuse unpaid excise tax and illegal grey books.. If you dont know about it, then read about it.. It happened !!

and they had registration, greenbook and plates. the owners thought they where legal, some of them where legal, but owner unable to prove it 10 years later

Where do you see that they had greenbook and plates? This article only talks about taking bikes away that evaded tax. There is no mention of these bikes already being registered and the bikes in the photos don't appear to have number plates.

You dont ride around on phuket plateless.. They just dont tolerate that and havent for years here.

I was involved in this.. I had my bike impounded even tho it was 100% legal.. My mate exactly the same.. Many people had to pay to get them out.. The excise tax is only post 97 but did the customs tell anyone that ?? No they just ransomed the bikes back, they had them, the police are not going to help you, and you were screwed.

These were bikes with legal green books, but didnt have excise tax records from their import.

Just because people dont know it happened please dont give false information that this didnt and doesnt happen.. It did, and it hinges on the shoddy way 'parts assembled' bikes were registered in the past, current owners pay for the sins of the importers.

[blakegeee]

As i said, be sure to check everything carefully including page 18.

[katabeachbum]

As i said, be sure to check everything carefully including page 18.

and how do you check page 18?

Normally it doesnt state how much has been payed, what invoice value, cc and hp. Thats where the tax evation is being done on grey imports

[stingray]

A lot of this info is misinformation as you have mentioned. "hundreds of bikes taken away in this identical situation". TOTAL BS! I am sure the odd legally imported bike may have been mixed into this deal (until proven to be legal) but not hundreds. The masses of these bikes being taken away were "illegally imported" usually without a registration, green book or plates. NOT the same situation at all.

Simply not true >30 were taken in one day on Phuket..

The total number is easily 100's.. Until last year no one knew anything about the page 18 tax requirements, in fact most still dont know anything about them.

The illegal bikes deserve all they get, but the ones where importers paid bribes to not pay the excise tax, and the DMV forgot to move excise tax info from book to book, the end user shouldnt be at fault.

Do not confuse unpaid excise tax and illegal grey books.. If you dont know about it, then read about it.. It happened !!

and they had registration, greenbook and plates. the owners thought they where legal, some of them where legal, but owner unable to prove it 10 years later

In this case noone would buy any big bikes at all, as a BIB's can confiscate your bike anytime he like it (maybe for personal use). So what happen when nothing is mantioned or written a the page 18????