Sin ( Groan ) Sod For Previously Married Girl

[hhgz]

"my fiancee ( 32 ) and I have reached an impasse....a stalemate, and I need some advice."

You don't want to hear this, but...if you and she are arguing about money NOW, it's going to get worse after the marriage. I have no idea why farang men want to get taken advantage of, and I have no sympathy for them when the inevitable happens.

Edited January 31, 2010 by hhgz

[Loz]

"my fiancee ( 32 ) and I have reached an impasse....a stalemate, and I need some advice."

You don't want to hear this, but...if you and she are arguing about money NOW, it's going to get worse after the marriage. I have no idea why farang men want to get taken advantage of, and I have no sympathy for them when the inevitable happens.

If you want a life of seeking advice from strangers on a forum, pay the money and wait for the next "interesting tit bit". If you want a marriage that you can manage on your own because it presents a mutually respectful union of TWO people, you better think again about your marriage plans.

[eurasianthai]

Actually the "problem" is pretty simple.

Are you ready to follow Thai customs to marry a Thai girl or not?

And pay the Sin Sod?

If you're not, you'd better make it clear with her long before you marry her.

[tomloughney]

Do not pay for the second marriage.

She is not fresh and the family already has the money.

That said, if you want to help the family out go ahead, but that sounds like blackmail and if it happens once it will, repeat will, repeat will, repeat will happen again.

I have seen this in the village, and that talk like the Falang is just and only money.

Not a good way to start.

If she will not marry you without the money, she will really leave you if you don't have enough money.

I was with a Thai girl for 12 years, married for 8. The family was great, never a problem but the wife was nuts and ran away with a Thai guy and started playing cards.....

[rixalex]

Actually the "problem" is pretty simple.

Are you ready to follow Thai customs to marry a Thai girl or not?

And pay the Sin Sod?

If you're not, you'd better make it clear with her long before you marry her.

Number one, we have established that in most normal circumstances, sin sot for a woman already married is not a Thai custom; and for two, the marriage is a union of two people both with their own cultural background - consideration, understanding and respect of your partner's culture is a two-way street. No reason why the man should have to throw all his beliefs out the window and simply jump on-board with the wife's way of doing everything - unless he's a spineless beast.

Edited January 31, 2010 by rixalex

[Acharn]

Just some questions? Something's I don`t understand and really want to know.

What is the fascination with these women that makes some guys go completely topsie turby and create a shit or bust situation for themselves, risking their mental, emotional and financial well being?

Why cant they find a normal partner, you know, boy meets girl, they fall in love and spend some years building their lives and finances together and live happily ever after?

What`s the deal here?

Please, can someone explain?

Simple. It's a case of apples & oranges. Your idea of boy meets girl is based on meeting someone "local", i.e. of the same mentality and roughly reproducible way of thinking. Both are not the case between a Western guy with an Asian lady. Doesn't necessarily mean that that's always something negative, but it's a major mine field.

But then, the real deal is that most men are prick-driven... It's either hormones or the brain, but there's no multitasking with the two. I'm unconditionally in this category as well -- that's not bashing anyone!

(reason for edit: typo)

It's interesting that so many western men who would pay (or already have paid) thousands of pounds/dollars for a diamond engagement ring, in keeping with western culture, have so many problems with the Thai custom of Sin Sod.

I remember many years ago in a discussion on /sin sod/ somebody posted a link to this story. Since then it's been reposted in many places. I love it.

My thought when I started reading this thread was that sometimes the family uses a demand for a huge /sin sod/ to tell the suitor that his attentions are not welcome, without causing him to lose face. My thought was that quite possibly the lady did not want to leave Thailand, and this was her way of getting out of a situation. Since the OP has come to an agreement that may not be the case, but I wonder how much he's really discussed this with her and has he really listened to what she was saying.

Anyway, I am not Thai so I cannot pronounce on what is and what is not Thai culture, but I've lived here a long time. My understanding is that the proper way to go about this is to have a /phu yai/ represent you in the negotiations. For a Thai man that would be his father, or a patron of higher social standing if possible. This shows respect for the lady's father. In the case of a language teacher, it would have been smart to talk this over with the principal/headmaster of his school and see if he/she would act for him (I'm not sure it would be proper for a woman to act in this role, but she could at least advise him). It may have been this lack of a go-between with sufficient standing that caused the father's initial demand. When the OP tried to continue negotiating that may have made the father feel that sufficient deference/respect had been shown to him. But who knows?

[AsiaCheese]

Sweet story, different background: not in Thailand...

[eurasianthai]

No reason why the man should have to throw all his beliefs out the window and simply jump on-board with the wife's way of doing everything - unless he's a spineless beast.

Well, as far as I know, 99% of the guys who want to marry a Thai girl do not have many beliefs to throw out. Or do not care about throwing them out anyway

[Loz]

Nice point about engagement rings. The one time I gave it some thought I was looking to spend the same as you would on a small new car. I guess my thinking was that I wanted her to know how much I thought of her and I wanted her to have something I thought was beautiful and classic and timeless, because I would have bought it with a lifetimes worth of daily wearing in mind.

You will notice in there NOTHING IN MY MOTIVATION was external to the two of us.

If a girls parents even joked about the size of the ring I was planning to give their daughter, AND particularly if they were less well off than myself, I would have to go outside, have a wank and come straight back in to make sure I was thinking with the correct brain.

There is a reason my Motorcycle helmet is bigger than the helmet I use when riding something with a pulse. Big helmet for big decisions, little helmet for little ones. Its so simple. I don't know why so many men over look this.

[Petesear]

There seems to be a lot of experts on Thai culture here.

It would be nice to hear from a Thai national on this subject.

It is not unusual for sin sod to paid to a the parents of a divorced lady.

There is no ridiculous 'used goods' label.

It would not be unusual to have borrowed 100k Baht from the Government whilst studying a degree.

OP, if you love the girl and feel that you can make it all work then go for it.

A forum may not be the best place to ask for advice on this subject, have you got any Thai friends you could ask?

[Latindancer]

My understanding is that the proper way to go about this is to have a /phu yai/ represent you in the negotiations. For a Thai man that would be his father, or a patron of higher social standing if possible. This shows respect for the lady's father.

It may have been this lack of a go-between with sufficient standing that caused the father's initial demand. When the OP tried to continue negotiating that may have made the father feel that sufficient deference/respect had been shown to him. But who knows?

I'm sure this was not exactly the case, but the spirit of what you are saying may be part of the reason.......as well as the money itself !

Respect and deference towards eldrs play a big part in Thai society.

Anyhow, it's all over now, apart from the subject of who will pay for the wedding. And as it will be a small one, if I pay it will gain me face with the parents. Especially if I fly them down from Udon. It won't cost that much, and honey-bunny says they've ever been on a plane. She says her dad would find it very interesting.

[mca]

Sincere apologies for being blunt (and flame away if you think I've got it well wrong) but a very large number of foreigners seem to enter into relationships with people whose families haven't got a pot to piss in nor window to throw it out of. In my humble opinion the bottom line of "My fiances family want this...." or "My fiances parents said this...."

[rixalex]

There seems to be a lot of experts on Thai culture here.

It would be nice to hear from a Thai national on this subject.

It is not unusual for sin sod to paid to a the parents of a divorced lady.

There is no ridiculous 'used goods' label.

It would not be unusual to have borrowed 100k Baht from the Government whilst studying a degree.

OP, if you love the girl and feel that you can make it all work then go for it.

A forum may not be the best place to ask for advice on this subject, have you got any Thai friends you could ask?

There seems to be a lot of experts on Thai culture here.

He asked for an opinion, that's what he is getting. He got yours too - does that make you an expert? Probably not. Just like the rest of us.

It is not unusual for sin sod to paid to a the parents of a divorced lady.

Are you refering to personal experience?

There is no ridiculous 'used goods' label.

If there is, there shouldn't be. It's an unkind way to label people.

It would not be unusual to have borrowed 100k Baht from the Government whilst studying a degree.

Sounds like rather a lot to me, and a suspiciously round number - like it might have been rounded up perhaps. Still, that's just the ugly skeptic in me rearing its head - pay no attention.

[Gonsalviz]

sounds like the daughter is under pressure from the father and that will always be the case"family first"

'Family first' is right, and don't even think anything. It will be futile.

[Ronaldo69]

Sorry mate,,,,as a fellow Aussie with some experience in this sinsod business (I did NOT pay), I was inclined to give you advise to cut-and-run ASAP before your goose is soundly cooked. However, you have already discounted such advise,so all that all that is lrft for me to say is GOOD LUCK MATE!!!

[Kayaken]

Here is my two cents worth, last year I married a women from Tha Bo area of Nong Khai, she was previously married 22 yr daughter in the University in KK, my wife comes from a family where all brothers sisters are educated, one has PhD, my wife is an RN, has license to own her own clinic, and when the Sin Sod question came up she said it is ''my'' choice. Mind you I am not rich she asked if I wanted a ' traidional Thai Ceremony' Buddists monks in the house all the fixing, we also had a big ' rock' band up on a stage, plus food feast for about 80 people. They could not afford all of that, so to ''save face'' I paid a Sin Sod ( plus her sister sweetened to pot by about a 100,000 baht ) so as to make the sin sod look bigger so the family can save face in the village area. Most all $ went for expenses, sister got her 100,000 back, any left over $ we went to Lao for a week. Did I have to pay any sin sod, No, but to save ''face" for her family it seemed good, as I didnt want to start a new relationship on the ''cheap'. In that region of Thailand it is very conservative ' old school' traditions', as is most of Isaan. good luck

[ozzieovaseas]

Never married a Thai (for good reason) so im not really qualified to comment but i have been round the block times and woke up with a few.

My dialouge the next day is basically to drill into them that I AINT RICH,..even if i am..well im not but maybe nidnoy

Nine out if ten will say no problem i want good man, have good heart

Eight out of that nine you will probably never see again or will soon drift away..

SO no problem..you've just eliminated 8 potentials for drama and can live to love another day to find that 1 rare jem..next please

If it comes to the point where your talking sinsod, if you politely tell the father you are not rich, that you rely on investments for income and you will only consider liquidating any assets when you are well settled into marriage what can they say??

If he stoopid then maybe the old "you cant get blood out of a stone" story will suffice,they love parables...me same same stone and money same same blood..stone mai mee blood

OR

I speak to you in a language you understand..pom falang jark-jon cowjai mai?

I dont know about you but id rather loose face by pretending to be poor than be the big man with the constantly empty wallet

Having said that i love these threads so i hope no-one actually follows this advice

There would be no marriages,no sinsod, no great threads like this to read AND no more chances for me to post THIS picture....

[Bung]

Just take to the Amphur, get married and try and get out to Australia and enjoy your lives as best you can without all the "understand thai culture" crap. Explain to your GF and her family that this is how it is. Save some money together and have a nice honeymoon somewhere. Forget about her family and whatever you do don't build a house next door to them.

[richm7]

There seems to be a lot of experts on Thai culture here.

It would be nice to hear from a Thai national on this subject.

It is not unusual for sin sod to paid to a the parents of a divorced lady.

There is no ridiculous 'used goods' label.

It would not be unusual to have borrowed 100k Baht from the Government whilst studying a degree.

OP, if you love the girl and feel that you can make it all work then go for it.

A forum may not be the best place to ask for advice on this subject, have you got any Thai friends you could ask?

Spot on. I get sick and tired of "facts" quoted in this and other forums which have no basis other than being recently pulled from the posters rectum.

I have asked a few experts myself. I think they're qualified, because they're Thai. They say it IS paid for "used goods" depending, of course, on the ability of the suitor to pay. Farangs, by definition, have the ability. Too bad.

Interesting discussion but moot as far as the OP is concerned because he has struck what I believe to be a sensible deal and bloody good luck to him.

[richm7]

Never married a Thai (for good reason) so im not really qualified to comment but i have been round the block times and woke up with a few.

My dialouge the next day is basically to drill into them that I AINT RICH,..even if i am..well im not but maybe nidnoy

Nine out if ten will say no problem i want good man, have good heart

Eight out of that nine you will probably never see again or will soon drift away..

SO no problem..you've just eliminated 8 potentials for drama and can live to love another day to find that 1 rare jem..next please

If it comes to the point where your talking sinsod, if you politely tell the father you are not rich, that you rely on investments for income and you will only consider liquidating any assets when you are well settled into marriage what can they say??

If he stoopid then maybe the old "you cant get blood out of a stone" story will suffice,they love parables...me same same stone and money same same blood..stone mai mee blood

OR

I speak to you in a language you understand..pom falang jark-jon cowjai mai?

I dont know about you but id rather loose face by pretending to be poor than be the big man with the constantly empty wallet

Having said that i love these threads so i hope no-one actually follows this advice

There would be no marriages,no sinsod, no great threads like this to read AND no more chances for me to post THIS picture....

See, that's the way to post an opinion. I love it. I don't agree but that's half the fun. Keep it up ozzie.

BTW, which one are you in the photo?

[ding]

None for retreads or women with children, usually. Little for older and uneducated. Odd to discuss, but a must. Sorry for the curt reply, but no more required. I did a lot of research before marrying a Thai. I have farang have friends who live and work there, as well as Thais that I know. I saved a ton. I did pay for the wedding ceremony and enjoyed the hel_l out of it, well worth the dough.

Edited January 31, 2010 by ding

[ozzieovaseas]

Never married a Thai (for good reason) so im not really qualified to comment but i have been round the block times and woke up with a few.

My dialouge the next day is basically to drill into them that I AINT RICH,..even if i am..well im not but maybe nidnoy

Nine out if ten will say no problem i want good man, have good heart

Eight out of that nine you will probably never see again or will soon drift away..

SO no problem..you've just eliminated 8 potentials for drama and can live to love another day to find that 1 rare jem..next please

If it comes to the point where your talking sinsod, if you politely tell the father you are not rich, that you rely on investments for income and you will only consider liquidating any assets when you are well settled into marriage what can they say??

If he stoopid then maybe the old "you cant get blood out of a stone" story will suffice,they love parables...me same same stone and money same same blood..stone mai mee blood

OR

I speak to you in a language you understand..pom falang jark-jon cowjai mai?

I dont know about you but id rather loose face by pretending to be poor than be the big man with the constantly empty wallet

Having said that i love these threads so i hope no-one actually follows this advice

There would be no marriages,no sinsod, no great threads like this to read AND no more chances for me to post THIS picture....

See, that's the way to post an opinion. I love it. I don't agree but that's half the fun. Keep it up ozzie.

BTW, which one are you in the photo?

I like to think im FORREST

(thats the one thats running)

and the one in chase is....well i forget now but there be some scary birds up north

[coolhandjoe]

Tell her no wedding until the father dies.

The father sounds as stubborn as the buffalo you will be expected to support.

Hold your ground, if you cave in and pay. Her family will have their hand in you pocket for ever and expect and rely on you.

i propose you have your argument proffesionally translated and submit it to the family, then watch their faces for the reaction when they realise they've been rumbled.

They will probally conceed to a 10,000 bht sin sod or send their daughter of in search of the holy grail- 1million bht sin sod in Pattaya.

[473geo]

Tell her no wedding until the father dies.

The father sounds as stubborn as the buffalo you will be expected to support.

Hold your ground, if you cave in and pay. Her family will have their hand in you pocket for ever and expect and rely on you.

i propose you have your argument proffesionally translated and submit it to the family, then watch their faces for the reaction when they realise they've been rumbled.

They will probally conceed to a 10,000 bht sin sod or send their daughter of in search of the holy grail- 1million bht sin sod in Pattaya.

More likely down the village to find a genuine Thai guy, like my brother in law who has diligently saved from his 10k a month salary to pay an 80k sin sod.....he gets married February.......

I guess too many just cannot, or will not, step up to the mark.......maybe the sinsod test is a good idea after all.....

[WeeGB]

My understanding is that the proper way to go about this is to have a /phu yai/ represent you in the negotiations. For a Thai man that would be his father, or a patron of higher social standing if possible. This shows respect for the lady's father.

It may have been this lack of a go-between with sufficient standing that caused the father's initial demand. When the OP tried to continue negotiating that may have made the father feel that sufficient deference/respect had been shown to him. But who knows?

I'm sure this was not exactly the case, but the spirit of what you are saying may be part of the reason.......as well as the money itself !

Respect and deference towards eldrs play a big part in Thai society.

Anyhow, it's all over now, apart from the subject of who will pay for the wedding. And as it will be a small one, if I pay it will gain me face with the parents. Especially if I fly them down from Udon. It won't cost that much, and honey-bunny says they've ever been on a plane. She says her dad would find it very interesting.

Off-topic here, but we took my elderly thai mother-in-law on a plane to Singapore, for a treat, back in the days when I had to do visa runs. She was really pleased when the stewardess showed her to a window seat, because she " would be able to get some fresh air ". Bless her!

If I was you, I'd reject replies from all posters, who suggest ditching the family, if you move to Oz, that's a sure way for your marriage to go down the pan. Thai women are very close to their families. If you want the marriage to work and be happy, better to ensure the parents can be easily telephoned by your future wife. If then you get asked for money all the time, you'll have to deal with that as it arises, maybe you'll be lucky.

It's a big wrench for a Thai woman to move abroad, it took my wife a long time to settle in the UK, even though she knew we'd eventually be returning to live in Thailand, which we now have.

Seems you've got the Sinsod out of the way, good luck for the future.

[BlackArtemis]

I only read half of the thread, but, is your fiance asking for the sinsod because of family pressure?

Remember guys, the wife may not want anything to do with it, but culturally she has to please her parents.

I paid no sinsod for my wedding. My wife's family does not believe in it. Her sister was the same.

My own observation is that sinsod seems to be most popular in Issan areas.

[lockman]

Married my wife about 40 years ago. She was divorced and had a child. No Sin Sod...not a Thai custom for second marriage. I'd really evaluate what you AND her really want.

My son has gotten married (outside of Thailand) to a Thai (first marriage) and no sin sod was asked at the Daughter's request. I'm quite sure the parents will do much better just staying mum in later years. I believe they may come and visit this year after being married about 2 years; and I don't think the topic will come up. The father seems to care about his children.

Personally I'd be prepared to walk away, however reluctantly; or you will be asked constantly forever for assistance.

[Loz]

If parents only invest in their children because they want something "material" back, should they even be allowed to be parents?

How many kids at cheltenham ladies college are thinking, "dam_n, I better come out this able to pull a rich hubby SO MY MUM AND DAD CAN GET THEIR MONEY BACK".

I am sure SURE S U R E than most parents of kids where I grew up wanted their kids to be happy in their own lives. Not to exist to make the parents lives materially better.

Maybe this is just a "little" culture clash. But it seems the values are very much at odds if the girl's parents want "PAYBACK" for their investment because YOU are going to reap the rewards, not them.

And to ask for it twice is nothing short of turning a possibly once treasured tradition into a bloody cottage industry

[khaowong1]

S#$t she is 32 and divorced, the parents should be happy she is with some one that wants to marry....

I have said this.....also that I don't mind helping them financially from time to time, as well as telling her we can regularly continue sending the exact same amount ( 1,000 baht per month ) she currently sends them (though actually some months she cannot ). However it seems she or rather her father is adamant. Of course she says I don't understand this part of Thai culture.

I have repeated many times that I have seen many posts on this forum about guys not paying sin sod, or showing it at the wedding, and it being returned the next day. But no go.

I'm not prepared to leave her. She is a lovely person, and I genuinely love her. What I need is a DEFINITIVE answer.....because posters here have said that for a previously married girl it is NEVER paid.

Maybe I should just find an educated Thai person who speaks good English and ask him / her.......

if you would like, I have a good friend in Bangkok, a Thai lawyer, very educated.. I could ask him for you.. up to you..

[khaowong1]

I only read half of the thread, but, is your fiance asking for the sinsod because of family pressure?

Remember guys, the wife may not want anything to do with it, but culturally she has to please her parents.

I paid no sinsod for my wedding. My wife's family does not believe in it. Her sister was the same.

My own observation is that sinsod seems to be most popular in Issan areas.

this has been my experience also. Issan and rural un-educated Thailand.