interesting commentary on jezebel:

A young guy wrote to Slate's advice columnist today, seeking help with his pathological jealousy. Prudie ripped him a new one — and left me wondering where the line is between jealousy and abuse.

Here's the letter:

I am in my early 20s and was recently dumped by my long-term girlfriend. This shocked me because of how in love with me this girl seemed to be and because of the revelations it brought about. Even though 90 percent of our relationship seemed blissfully happy, the remaining 10 percent was miserable because I was extremely verbally abusive to her and gradually restricted her social world because of my jealousy. I insisted she avoid contact with guys she had slept with (and I promised to do the same with my previous partners); I used her romantic past to make her feel awful when she wanted to spend time with friends at places where her past flings would be; I held the fact that she'd had casual sexual partners against her. At the time, I thought I was a good guy who simply held his girlfriend to the same standards he imposed on himself. I did the same thing in my previous relationship. Now it's painfully obvious what a monster I was. I've pored over self-help books and tried to make sure I do not revert to being this horrible person, but I always do. Now I am in a fresh relationship with a girl-we've fallen quickly for each other-and I'm keeping quiet about my discomfort that she's friends with guys she has slept with. But I know something will eventually slip through the cracks. I'm sure a therapist would help, but I'm an in-debt college student and can't afford it. Is there anything I can do to avoid ending up the monster that I seem destined to become?

— Scared

Now, Scared identifies himself as emotionally abusive, and appears to have controlled and isolated his girlfriend in such a way that it's no wonder she left. Such behavior can escalate into physical abuse, and trying to cut someone off from her social life is a major red flag. Still, I was surprised by Prudie's response:

I hope you can hear in that characterization of your relationship how even now you view her purpose in life was to confirm your lovableness and absorb your rage. It's a positive sign that you see the maliciousness of your behavior, recognize that you aren't in control of yourself, and accept that you need to change. But declaring yourself a monster paradoxically allows you to make your problem so big, so "destined," that you can't be held responsible-after all, fairy-tale monsters were just made that way. The first thing I suggest you do is come clean to your current girlfriend about your problem, and the fact that you are already feeling the worm of unease about her past sexual partners. I hope she leaves, but if she doesn't, then the next thing you have to do is slow the relationship way down.

She then offers some good advice, telling Scared to examine his partner choices to see if he goes after vulnerable women, and to seek therapy through his school. But does his letter really show that he thinks his ex existed to "confirm his lovableness and absorb his rage?" Is his use of the word "monster" really a way of excusing himself? Scared has done some fuc_ked-up shit, and if my friend were dating him now, I might advise her to leave. But he also seems to have recognized relatively early in his life that he has a problem, and to be looking for a way to fix it — does Prudie's extra criticism really help matters?

What Scared's letter really highlights, at least for me, is the difficulty of identifying and dealing with emotional abuse. At what point does jealousy, for instance, become abusive, no longer an emotion but a behavior that's toxic to another person's well-being? Earlier this week, the coverage of a study about jealousy and attachment style referenced "the kind of sexual jealousy that contributes to domestic violence." But what kind is that? And how do we spot it, and combat it in ourselves and others, before it escalates?

by Anna North

read the rest of it here: http://jezebel.com/5458647/when-does-jealousy-become-abuse

I was once that guy and totally ruined a relationship i was in because of jealousy. I have got over that since and am in a good relationsip now though. I just wanted to share my thoughts on the subject as its something i have an understanding of at least from my own perspective.

So first of all i think that Prudie is probably correct that this kind of behaviour *could* lead to physical abuse but i also think that would only be in a person that has a propensity towards that sort of behaviour in the first place. I know that in my deepest darkest moments of jealousy it never even crossed my mind and i didnt even become verbally abusive i was just feeling very very insecure, sad and vulnerable inside. Now ofcourse all 3 of those emotions can lead certain people to lashing out but certainly not all.

I also actually have to agree that "scared" stating he is a monster is in a sense a dehumanising and therefor possibly dissasosiating statement to make but it touches a nerve with me too. My greatest fear after the terrible way i acted was that it was somehow out of my control as that is exactly how it felt even at the time i was feeling those emotions i knew it was irrational. I feared it would happen again and again and that id never overcome it. However using the term monster is kind of accurate as from my experience when i did feel or act that way it was like somebody else and i could not really believe how i acted at times it was completely irrational. Even as i would sit there and those feelings would be triggered by the most ridiculous tiny things that i logically knew were nothing this awfull sense of jealousy would just boil under the surface and the fact i knew i was being ridiculous just made me feel even worse about myself etc.

Now for me in time i worked out and knew exactly why i had these feelings. I had never gotten over losing my first love and in a manner that really hurt me. It was something that came out of the blue and i was left for another.

I would call it a trauma and i believe that your brain / body etc after experiencing such trauma hardwires itself to make bloody sure it doesnt happen again. Most of us go through life without constantly thinking about every possible danger or unexpected event that could take place at any given moment. That is in fact healthy but lets say somone who was driving their car in the usual manner feeling safe being carefull ofcourse and aware of danger but not really expecting that 10 tonne truck to come flying through the barrier at 100 miles an hour and smsh right into you. That person will from that point probably find it difficult to drive a car again without the constant irrational fear of such a seemingly unlikely event occuring again. (Hope that metaphor worked )

In a sense its like some terrible enlightenment that anything is possible from moment to moment and being able to trust after that is extremely hard the world and its inhabitants are unpredictable and its only by filtering a lot out that were even able to function "normally" anyway i digress.

At the end of the day though it took for me to be pro active i simply had to overcome those feelings but it took a very special person to be able to hear me out when i fear others would have run at the first hint. I still get the occasional pangs but they last no more than 15 mins at most and are rare. Being understood was important but also being able to communicate about it with my g/f so they could even gain the understanding in the first place also helped.

So yea i agree with you in that this young chap seems to really be trying to help himself and it reminded me of my own situation so much and how i felt at the time. Honestly though i think he will either be forced to help himself in the end when he realises that his behaviour simply wont lead to anything good for him or any prospective partner or he will simply find himself alone. I just hope he can find somebody patient and loving enough to give him the time! and i totally agree hat hes making the effort and seems self aware which should be encouraged. So man people seem to go through life not even being aware of their own shitty behaviours and seem to lack any kind of empathy so they can see how it affects those around them.

The extra criticisms and connection with domestic abuse though i think will likely just scare him further and may even be unwarranted considering the relation of the story is to that of an individual even if true in some cases. Then again it took for a few friends of mine to say to me "you HAVE to stop" and in a sense a kick up the butt and a bit of fear did me some good in overcoming this.

Anyway no idea why ive shared so much with people i know so little but i guess forums and posts are a kind of documentation on the human condition and who knows maybe 1 person will come across this and find it helpfull one day or maybe not

Peace Andy x

Jealousy is ALWAYS abuse SBK.

Edited January 31, 201016 yr by Farangrakthai

Wow, thanks for posting andy.

Just as an FYI, no, its not about me or the relationship I have but I thought it a very interesting piece and somethign I think most people have encountered in their lives to some degree or another. Either being the jealous partner or being the one at the receiving end of the jealousy. and its certainly not limited to men but women as well and as Andy points out alot of it stems from insecurity in oneself. A feeling of unworthiness and fear of losing the one person that makes them feel worthy.

A feeling of unworthiness and fear of losing the one person that makes them feel worthy.

This is the problem actually, feeling unworthy.

It makes people jealous and in turn makes them lose the people they do not want to lose.

You're as worthy as the day you met him/her.

Jealousy is ALWAYS abuse SBK.

I disagree. I think we all have times where we feel jealousy. Its how we handle those feelings. Usually by solving it within ourselves. Of course some partners like to get a rise out of their gf/bf by being overly flirtatious to the point of being rude. Some are just insensitive. This is abusive too, because that person is trying to make their partner feel insecure and jealous.

Abuse is if you respond in a negative way to feeling of jealousy (and other emotions), not jealousy itself.

Jealousy is ALWAYS abuse SBK.

I think we all have times where we feel jealousy.

No, I never did but well, I'm not a girl

I still believe jealousy is unsecurity in a relationship.

Not really what will make a relationship long lasting.

Feelings of jealousy is not only a female trait rakthai (just look at the quoted OP). I rarely have ever had feelings of jealousy, but i certainly would not say I have never experienced it. Im a normal person with normal instincts and emotions. I actually cant recall any time where i felt that way, but im sure it will have happened. Im sure it will happen some time in my future too. Its how i handle any emotions that come up.

I dont see why you would think times where a person may have feelings of jealousy (and other emotions such as anger, frustration, guilt etc) would impact negatively on a relationship. Its how you handle those feelings or let them fester that could damage a relationship.

edit: ...and of course jealousy is based on insecurity in a relationship. Its great for those out there that have never experienced times of low self-esteem and or problems in a relationship. Lucky people who have never had hiccups in their relationship that they have had to overcome.

Edited January 31, 201016 yr by eek

i would say that insecurity in a relationship isn't necessarily always due to low self esteem. If the relationship is faltering, or the partner has a wandering eye, that would create feelings of insecurity as well. And to suggest that women are the only ones who are jealous, is IMO, extremely naive.

And to suggest that women are the only ones who are jealous, is IMO, extremely naive.

I did not say that, SBk, just that I don't feel it, and I'm not a girl.

And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

But maybe I'm lucky

im going to add something that may get me flamed: jealousy,, or the acceptance or expectation of jealousy is something that is also cultural. in israel, among the 'mizrahi ' (the morrocan/yemen/iraq/kurdish/spanish /north african jews) jealousy of a male about his wife/girlfriend is accepted, expected and often very very strong leading to physical violence towards the supposed recipient of the attention/and/or the woman. its a residual part of the arab culture of 'family honour'. here we have murders and stabbings that are cited after wards in teh papers when interviewing the perp as ' family honour'. among beduins and druze it is very much stronger with deaths (can even find stats for this if someone really wants) every month! among the jewish families, there is less murder but the abuse stays (physical/verbal/isolating etc).

a good friend who works with me, she is from a morrocan/polish family, he is 100% morrocan from the old family (and sub mafiosa also)type. he married her when she was 18!. since she has started to work with us, she is required to work night shift sometimes. we all assured him that she would be with us (women) and the males she would be with are all nonjews (which she, being religious jewish, wouldnt be interested it, logically). as she moves up in her responsibilities and becomes more managerial, his jeoulousy has increased. he uses sentences around us (and she has quoted him to the boss with these same sentences) that if she 'looks at an other man, she's dead'. a client once brought her vase for the coffee house. we had to swear not to say a word or he would go nuts. her daughter also laughs about her jeoulous father, but she herself (the duaghter) although only 17 (yes a virgin , because of religious values) is looking for a man, like her father. she sees the jeoulousy as jproof of love. my firend complains about the jeaolousy, but she laughs while complaining as she sees it as an asset not a fault.

here, jeolous rage towards a woman is seen as 'caring', protecting, loving-- we use the word (in hebew) for jealous , as a positive adjective when talking about a boy, a dog or a child who clings, interferes when mother/sister is talking with others, a dog that positions his body between the owner and the other person. it is seen as a positive quality. women here look for a jeolous man. a man that doesn ask who u spoke to on the phone, who was that at the door, who was that guy u spoke with at work-- is seen as non caring.

among the arab families even the contact wouldnt happen. we always joke :watch out, he has many brothers and uncles" when a guy gets interested in a woman from the village. but it is a serious joke that could end up with a dead woman at the end of it.

among european background men and women this is obviously frowned upon, my daughter vehemently refuses to have anything to do with any male that shows jeolousy, as do most of the anglo /israeli women, and most of the western women. however, our duaghters are also influenced by their friends from the various cultures, as i hear the converstaions on the cellphones "'weeeeeeeeeee!! he's a jeolous one. he must really like u. "" /jyooooo! he's just sooooooooo jeolous." said usually with envy and exagerated surprise in their voices in my 16 yrs old duaghter and friends.

even i am used to it. here, a woman would never ever date more then one person at a time. even the european styled ones. although in tel aviv sleeping around has become a fine art, in the other areas, this would be considered super slut behavior and men express themselves accordignly.

my husband fits the 'oriental' bill perfectly although not too exagerated. my morrocan friend thinks that my husband is therefore: good, cute, means he cares. my anglo friends think its OTT. a cultural perception .

here, we even organize ourselves in work shifts help to avoid causing jeoulousy problems (a woman with a young male, etc) since its so part of the general culture here. no body even realizes that thats how people organize themselves.

bina

Im a woman i do feel jealous quite alot for some stupid situation that my brain making up itself . but i never let the feeling to ruin my husband day. As for me i think its ok to feel jealous for both men and women but too much of the jealously that u cant control can lead the problem in the relationship .

I understand that too jealous is the best way to lose a man --

so sometime i think as a men like if i were a man i would do the same or not? to stop the jealously --and it works for me

I understand that too jealous is the best way to lose a man

Too jealous is the best way to lose a relationship.

SBK got upset but I did not mean only girls can get upset with jealousy.

Men can also.

But the end result is the same.

The end of the relationship.

Not upset, just a tad bemused by your comment that you don't understand jealousy because you aren't a woman. One of the hallmarks of an abusive relationship is when the man starts to become overly possessive and jealous, this is often the first step into what can become a physically abusive relationship as well. Not that it doesn't happen with women, either, it certainly does, but it belies the idea that jealousy is somehow a female characteristic.

I am not the jealous type, but then my husband has never given me cause to be jealous. In prior relationships where I felt insecure in the relationship (ie unsure as to how the guy felt, and the general feeling that I was more into him then he was into me) then I felt somewhat jealous. If I was feeling insecure in myself I could also feel somewhat jealous, but generally, no. Its a destructive emotion that hurts not only the relationship but yourself. Negativity breeds negativity.

The real issue of importance about this is if there is any factual behavior by the other partner to justify such feelings. Only suspicion with no proof, is not really grounds for jealousy. However, provocative behavior on by a partner to incite such jealousy sometimes happens. Good relationships I have had, are where there is full honesty and disclosure, have not caused and problems. Evasive and secretive behavior and dishonesty, by a partner, just fuels jealousy.

I read a really really great book written by a friend's mum recently. It's called Power and Control. The woman who wrote it started one of the biggest charities in the UK who helps women who are victims of domestic abuse. In this book, she maintains that it is very, very rare for a man to recognise the traits in him that this man has. She also says that these men are emotionally abusive and often this will go hand in hand with physical abuse. Even if it doesn't, she shows just how horrendous emotional abuse on it's own can be.

Of course I am not saying that all men who are jealous are emotional abusers, but she shows that power and control are the base of all forms of 'partner' abuse and so jealousy definitely fits into this category.

She argues that the reason why men abuse women is because society not only lets them, it encourages them. Men are the tough strong ones, women need to be protected. Men earn more money, women stay at home and look after the kids. Yeah I am sure I am going to get a million responses telling me how this isn't the case anymore in places like the UK, but that is BS..in my opinion. Women are still expected to be the ones who take time off work when they have children. Often men who stay at home with the kids do so purely out of financial neccessity, not because they made a choice. Women STLL get paid less than men, that is fact. Women who have been raped STILL get questioned about what they were wearing. And so on and so on.

In societies where the divide between men and women is even greater, there is going to be more instances of men who want to control their wives. But just as in the UK, not everyone who receives these messages acts on them. My boyfriend has been brought up with these traditional values but is neither jealous nor controlling. Maybe I'm lucky, I don't know. He is no angel, he can be irritating and infuriating, but he doesn't seek to control me. If I was with a man who did try to curb my actions, dress, speech etc, this to me would seem to be an attempt to exert power over me, and I would not feel flattered by it.

In societies where the divide between men and women is even greater, there is going to be more instances of men who want to control their wives

that is israel, underneath the western covering, we are still middle east/oriental in nature and therefore jeolousy is seen as a positie , proof of love, state.

and of course its control.

bina

israel

When she is just a friend you thought you had been clear to that friendship was all you were able to give, and she knocks on your door at 07:30 in the morning and demands to be let in the door of the one-bedroom hotel room to see that you were honest when you said that you were sleeping alone that night, and had no other woman in your room at the time, something tells me that it might transgress the line fromn innocent hapless jealousy of a comical nature to the extent of abuse. That was last Wednesday morning.

Thai women have no qualms about utilising the motives of jealousy to the full extent of their wild imaginations.

My ex started to get jealous only when I left him because he was assuming that I must have had someone else. Some friends told me that it is a Thai thing. I'm not sure but he travelled all the way from the south to find out and I had to call the police because he tried to break into my room. Scary!

I still love to be here amongst all these crazy mixed-up jealous 'til hades freezes over women, because they do what women do, so I can do what I am supposed to do,and just relax and be the bloke I was born as.

Mostly, being around good feminine women is blessing after three years stranded in Australia. It's not easy to even walk down the street in Australia nowdays without the dirty looks I get for just being a man.

I'll put up with the jealousy problems here. At least I can know that I'm wanted by someone.

One of the hallmarks of an abusive relationship is when the man starts to become overly possessive and jealous

Indeed.

Or the reverse.

When the woman starts to be overly possessive and jealous.

Are the men more prone to such kind of feelings than women?

I do not think so

I've never undersood the jealousy thing.

My ex wife, when she was my wife started getting flowers and she brought them home and i would put them in a vase......I actually thought it was great because I wouldnt have to spend the $$$$ on buying her flowers myself .

Anyway, I never got jealous once about it, there must be something wrong with me (besides the obvious) .

One of the hallmarks of an abusive relationship is when the man starts to become overly possessive and jealous

Indeed.

Or the reverse.

When the woman starts to be overly possessive and jealous.

Are the men more prone to such kind of feelings than women?

I do not think so

I am a woman posting from my point of view. Next time I will be sure to type "one of the hallmarks of an abusive relationship is when the man or woman starts to become overly possessive and jealous" just so you wont' feel left out.

I actually think that women, on average, get more jealous than men.

Maybe they have reasons to be or maybe they're just over-thinking relationships sometimes.

Men are not that complicated...

overthinking? women? surely you jest eurasianthai!

And this train of thought and discussions is also why most modern unions/partnerships is doomed to fail..

Its to much me, me ,me ,me and i have to live my life on my own premises instead of looking for a golden middle way to enable a fruitful partnership to grow and sprout, even sometimes unexpected, rewards.