Racism in thailand

[kwiz117]

Hey, I'm no expert on Indian-Sri Lankan affairs and am first to admit it. However, I do know the general vibes i got from most (Sinhalese) Sri Lankans to Indians and India wasn't too positive when I visited your country several years ago, And wasn't it a Tamil who assassinated Rajiv Ghandi, so there must be something going on between the Tamils and Indian govt. too (at least back then)? And don't feel the need to patronise me on the Tamil-Sinhalese civil war - those are your personal opinions you're posting and not everyone in the world sees the LTTE as a "terrorist group". (similarly, most Americans thought of IRA as "freedom fighters" til Sept. 11th)

Chon,

No… wrong again. I do not think it is fair for me to say that Tamil assassinated Rajiv Gandhi. It is the LTTE who assassinated him and even today the leader of LTTE is the most wanted man in India.

Indian Govt. consider LTTE as a Terrorist group and they are not legal to function inside India though they function in South India similar to the way Thaleban operate in Pakistan.

If I update you more, India sent a Peace keeping force to Sri Lanka in 1982 to fight against LTTE as it created so much internal problems to India. So LTTE and India are two different entities and it is a big issue now for the leader of LTTE to come into normal politics as India is pushing so much pressure on Sri Lanka to hand him over to India. So that explains the story of relationships.

Tamils in India are split over this and they generally do not support LTTE. Even the majority of Tamils live in Colombo do not support them. It is a fraction of this community who has taken arms and fighting for a separate state. It is not for freedom.  

Yes, you are correct to say that other countries may not consider LTTE as a terrorist group. Interestingly, until the recent Sep 11, they operated freely inside UK, and US. In Canada and Australia even today they operate without any problem. They have assassinated [suicide] as many as over 20 leaders in Sri Lanka and killed 1000’s of others.  What we think in general is, that western countries prefer to have a problem in one of the strongest Buddhist nations in the world, so that it will split over the issue. For me, I see even the Israel, Palestine conflict somewhat similar to that.

Indian people who live in Thailand are mainly from High class Brahman Hindu’s. Also Indian Sheeks. They are not ready to mix with any other nationality, cast or a religion other than among them. Most of them are well educated and also have seen all kind of stuff happening around them. But they do not want to change as they think it will have become a threat to their society from the west.

They always see a person throu his or her Pedigree. They think Thai people who mix with any Farang easily are not cultured. That is how they see it. They can not understand the meaning of Love like the way you guys think about it, as they do not believe in Love marriages. It is hard for me to put these things into words. But the way you guys look at it is totally different.

Thai People’s think that Indian looking people are very dirty and stingy. You will realize how true it is if you visit India once. People are ready to shit even on the pavement and you will see the half burned bodies floating in the most Holiest River [“Ganganam” ] where they take a dip as per Hindu religious believes. So these things add up.

Now one might think that I have generalized too much here. It is similar to how many here look at Muslims as Terrorists or Extremists. I can not see any difference. If you guys can generalize like that, then we can not say anything to Thai people for this kind of racial generalizations.

 

[Heng]

Myself, I don't see much racism and discrimination "piled" on Indians and Sikhs.   They are allowed to accumulate as much land, power, and wealth as they want.    They can go to school wherever they want.   Where's the racism there?  

Yes, there are some bars and restaurants who may bar Indians and Sikhs.   However I've seen them in upscale massage parlours as well that MPs patronize.   There's probably a western falang or two who would be MORE than willing to trade 'not being able to go to a few pubs' in exchange for the legal right to own ONE little house in Thailand in his own name.

Stinky Indian comments?   That's not racism.   People with particular diets WILL have a different scent.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I'm uncertain whether Adventure's cheap shots are based in arrogance or stupidity,  I suspect the latter.    

[ThaiAdventure]

People with particular diets WILL have a different scent.

In fact Europeans smell like sour milk to the Japenese and my missus smell like tuna!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

You go from worse to worse

[WilliamIV]

<font color='#000000'>IMO

The Ordinary man in the Street:

does not like Blacks

does not Trust Indians Resident in Thailand

Bill</font>

<font color='#000000'>As I originally highlighted

the 2 categories ...

I would suggest that Blacks are

not befriended mainly because of the

high number of their "brothers" being

in Prison for Drug offenses.

Thais do not want to be involved

with potential Drug Smugglers.

Resident Indians IMO are not Trusted

money wise - I think in the past

they may have been Money Lenders.

Resident Indians do not 'mix' with Thais - OK

But Seihks & Brahmins do not intermarry

with other Indian Castes / Sects.

(See the very specific Caste requirements

in the Indian Weekly Marriage Classified adverts

- pages of them - in English Language Newspapers

e.g. The Hindu)

Bill (English)</font>

[francois]

You go from worse to worse

yop, and reading all this makes me think that we should probably re-define the word racist  

talking about territoriality would be more appropriate  :cool:

animals and humans belong to different race, but all humans belong to the same race !!

(whatever you may think!, it's a scientific fact)

this thread is walking on a razor blade  ???

[ThaiAdventure]

this thread is walking on a razor blade  ???

It fell off and cut it's ass two pages ago.

You always get inflamed opinions when talking about racism to  farang. They've been so indoctrinated with PC that their morality software goes in to overdrive. If you want to know what Thais think about other races go to a Kareoke bar (you don't have to sing but they get quite exited when you do), buy a few drinks and ask them! You can then make up your own mind.

You will pretty soon come to the conclusion (that you should already know) that everyones different, with their own oppinions and prejudices through the entire spectrum.

I, however, am not prejudiced or racist. I hate EVERYBODY.

[marquess]

Re the Indian marraige situation. My friend in England who was a Sikh, who had been brought up in the UK. He had many non Indian girll friends, some serious and some not. Yet he was always under pressure to marry an Indian girl. In the end the end he went to India and married some girl he had spoken to on the phone.

I am a black man who was born and breed in England. There has never been any pressure from my parents to marry another black girl, or to conform to this of that because I am black. You would be hard pressed to find a British Indian who could say the same.

Here in Thailand I have encountered the odd bit of racism, but I put it down to ignorance and if it is more than that, then that's the problem of the other party and not mine. I think that on the whole Thai people are the friendliest in the world and as long as you try to get on with them; they will do their best to get on with you.

[Heng]

Ignorance of what? The world (and Thailand) is filled with educated racists. Many of them doctors, lawyers, engineers, and higher ranking politicians.

[D80]

I think Marquess means 'ignorant' as to the cultures and the ways other people live and not 'ignorant' as oppose to formally 'educated'.

Some people are so ill-informed about other cultures/ways of life that they make bad judgments and put people in different pigeonholes.

Just a thought.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I wonder why nobody commented on the many racist comments and anti Thai sentiments expressed by the farang on this forum. I wonder why so many with this sort of attitude stay on in Thailand.

[Rambutan]

^ ^

?

[Guest IT Manager]

or simply a massive lack of education"?

so many Thais don't even know where are the other countries on the world map

I spent half an hour on IRC with a friend of my Thai son last week. My son was out for an hour when this lad came on. An american boy same age as my son.

He had no idea where Thailand, Burma or Laos were.

Don't start me about education in Thailand when the country that in its' own mind "rules the world" doesn't educate its' kids.

There may be holes in Thai education. There are virtual chasms in that provided to American kids. and no he goes to a Thai school, not one of those rubbish International (give me another 5,000 baht please), International Schools.

I asked my son if his social study teacher had mentioned Sierra Leone in recent weeks, because of the civil unrest. "Yes he said, next week we are doing a study on internal political strife in Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa, but we asked to include the north and Sierra Leone and the slave ship". This is master 15.

[Heng]

I think Marquess means 'ignorant' as to the cultures and the ways other people live and not 'ignorant' as oppose to formally 'educated'.

Some people are so ill-informed about other cultures/ways of life that they make bad judgments and put people in different pigeonholes.

Just a thought.

I was referring to people who have seen much of the world AND maintain their racist/discriminatory views.

It IS possible to be completely open minded and still come to formulate a personal philosophy that includes racist/discriminatory views. I think what's important is to remember to take each person on a case by case basis despite those views when you can. Obviously that's going to be a little more difficult if you are a world leader or the head of a medium to large sized company. You might have to set discriminatory policies because you know that political correctness might drive your nation or company into the dust (despite being an open minded individual who practices a more egalitarian policy in one's personal day to day affairs).

[D80]

I wonder why nobody commented on the many racist comments and anti Thai sentiments expressed by the farang on this forum. I wonder why so many with this sort of attitude stay on in Thailand.

Agree wholeheartedly with Dr Pat_pong!

[plachon]

I wonder why nobody commented on the many racist comments and anti Thai sentiments expressed by the farang on this forum. I wonder why so many with this sort of attitude stay on in Thailand.

Agree wholeheartedly with Dr Pat_pong!

I sometimes wonder too Dr PP, but maybe it's because a/ the racists mumble and grumble to themselves and their ilk mostly (and occasionally embarass this forum too); and b/ most Thais are largely ignorant of these foreign racists, because of the huge language gap that exists. Having said that, the majority of Thais too, tend to be blissfully unaware of their own deeply held racist attitudes and worldviews, because racism is an issue very rarely discussed or raised in the Kingdom, even though it's simmering in the background the whole time. I don't even think there is a Thai word for "racism", though I'm willing and ready to be corrected on this. It's also a very difficult word to define, as Francois (I think) hinted. Is prejudice against your own countrymen on the basis of their skin colour or language/accent, still considered racism, I still wonder?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Plachon The Thai for racism is LATTI YEAD PEW Now you now

[marquess]

I was referring to people who have seen much of the world AND maintain their racist/discriminatory views.

It IS possible to be completely open minded and still come to formulate a personal philosophy that includes racist/discriminatory views. I think what's important is to remember to take each person on a case by case basis despite those views when you can. Obviously that's going to be a little more difficult if you are a world leader or the head of a medium to large sized company. You might have to set discriminatory policies because you know that political correctness might drive your nation or company into the dust (despite being an open minded individual who practices a more egalitarian policy in one's personal day to day affairs).

I also meant ignorant, in that they should know better. In that all men are equal. Or would any of you disagree with that?

[Heng]

I agree that 'all men (and women) are equal' is a very politically correct statement. I also believe that is nearly impossible to make such a statement without being a hypocrit because of the fact that we all have to exist in the natural social hierarchies (like most creatures in nature) that humans have formed (usually according to various superior or inferior abilities) since the dawn of mankind.

[marquess]

I agree that 'all men (and women) are equal' is a very politically correct statement. I also believe that is nearly impossible to make such a statement without being a hypocrit because of the fact that we all have to exist in the natural social hierarchies (like most creatures in nature) that humans have formed (usually according to various superior or inferior abilities) since the dawn of mankind.

I think that you are missing the point, I am not denying that everyone has different abilities, some being better at one thing or other some being cleverer etc.. but this is not down to race, racism is to condem a whole race as being inferior, for whatever reason. That is the point I am trying to make. So the point is that ability is down to the individual and not by race.

[Heng]

I agree that 'all men (and women) are equal' is a very politically correct statement. I also believe that is nearly impossible to make such a statement without being a hypocrit because of the fact that we all have to exist in the natural social hierarchies (like most creatures in nature) that humans have formed (usually according to various superior or inferior abilities) since the dawn of mankind.

I think that you are missing the point, I am not denying that everyone has different abilities, some being better at one thing or other some being cleverer etc.. but this is not down to race, racism is to condem a whole race as being inferior, for whatever reason. That is the point I am trying to make. So the point is that ability is down to the individual and not by race.

No, I see your point. You feel that generalizations can't be made and applied to ENTIRE groups of people. I feel that they can. People are physiologically different across racial boundaries. I don't think it's too difficult to fathom that people are also psychologicaly different across the races as well. It's very possible that levels of intelligence vary with quantifiable trends, with clear differences between groups of people (NOT just individuals).

At the same time, I feel one should still give as much of an opportunity to someone who is a member of said group, because each individual can still overcome his/her own upbringing and possibly one's own genetics (surely various groups' successes with athletics/labor, mathematics, banking, commerce, art, etc. is not based SOLELY on one's upbringing... myself I think there are genetic predispositions as well that make one's life more likely to follow one path or the other).

[Sunbelt Asia]

Experience Racism today...

Shophouse lease rejected by a Thai Landlord. Reason given.... it’s with a franchise based in the USA. “I hate Americans and I'm Muslim. " As she hands the application back. Her shophouse is near a expat community. Granted she does not live in the community but outside the perimeter wall and controlled security check points at 2 main entrances. Many Americans there so must be why she wants to move. Hard to imagine in today’s age, this type of racism.

[Guest IT Manager]

Experience Racism today...

Shophouse lease rejected by a Thai Landlord. Reason given.... it’s with a franchise based in the USA. “I hate Americans and I'm Muslim. " As she hands the application back. Her shophouse is near a expat community. Granted she does not live in the community but outside the perimeter wall and controlled security check points at 2 main entrances. Many Americans there so must be why she wants to move. Hard to imagine in today’s age, this type of racism.

Please don't flame me for this. Read it carefully before commenting.

How often have you seen someone here, reject an income generating proposal on priciple. American or calathumpian, I have never seen it happen to the best of my knowledge, and certainly not with such forthrightness. Maybe it has happened, but been coloured with "we have already sold it/rented it/sent it to our daughter in Lopburi, but not coming straight out and saying "I don't want your money because you are American".

While I suggest Sunbelt, it may be a point of concern, I also find it interesting and in more than a few ways, refreshing as well.

[kwiz117]

I am not an expert on defining the word “Racism”. But I can not understand what made Dr PP to suggest that “Some farang in this thread has expressed Racist comments against Thai and the fact he can not understand why they live in Thailand”

I again read this thread and could not trace any such instance. So wonder whether the Forum has censored some of those replies, as I could not visited this website for last couple of days?

All replies are trying to discuss what they think about the word ‘Racism” and whether Thai’s are “racist” in general or not.

At the beginning of this discussion, some have clearly spelled out the Dislike that Thai People have for Indian’s and Black people. So all of them have expressed opinions and some examples about the basis of thinking. Some have called it as “Racism” and some have called it as ‘lack of understanding about other cultures”.

I have put down my opinions saying that this type of thinking is not unique to Thai People and it is common all across Asia stating how Indian People think about Thai People. Basically, why they do not like each other and some of my experiences as a person having the same skin color similar to an Indian.

I have further expressed my experiences about how that attitude changed when it came to Religion thus making Thai People not Racists like the way we think they are.

I am actually confused between the two terms “Racists” and “Dislike”.

Take Indo-Siam’s example for an instance. I have come across with a similar situations that one Condominium rejected renting an Apartment to me and my wife, stating that the owner of the Condominium do not wish to rent an apartment to an Indian. [behind Soi 26]

When she explained to them that I am not an Indian, still the officer said that I look like an Indian and he can not accept it. Is this Racism? My thinking is, it is more of a “Dislike” towards Indian’s.

I also know some Muslims do not want to rent a place to a US guy and also I doubt how many US individuals will select a Muslim tenant to rent a house. May be it is due to “Lack of trust” with each other, thinking that the possible complications that could arise if by chance he/she is linked to a terrorist group etc.

Is this “Racism”? I do not think so.

If I rent a Condominium I will try to avoid any nationality that has a risk attached to it. Obviously it can be interpreted as the “Dislike” I am having towards another nationality.

In my opinion, this is the reason why Thai People do not like Indian’s and Black’s in general. Also that is why Indian’s do not like Thai people in general.

It is simply how we respect others and how well we behave in another societies by respecting other cultures and the values. Whenever we dislike another culture, then you will see a conflict and it could lead to “Racism” by accusing the people who has the advantage as “Racist”.

Whether it is “Racism” or “Dislike” is up to you.

But one thing for sure, this is also common among you guys whether you come from UK or US. One of my US friends recently said that he is very concern and careful when handling any financial Transaction with a Philippine or an Indian Company. That is his view and it is based on some of his bad experiences.

For me, I am concern when I handle a Transaction with a Thai Guy than a Thai Lady. That is based on some of my previous bad experiences. It does not mean that we are “Racist”.

Finally, some months back, I faced with a similar situation in one of a leading 5 star hotels in Bangkok. TheFront Office Manager in that hotel is actually a Racist.

I do not want to repeat the incident that took place again. But his decision for not to allow me in was based on "Racism" and it is not based on "Dislike".

I think in any society you get that type of people and it is not fair to say all Thai People are Racist by looking at such situations.

[monitorlizard]

Interesting comments Heng. I wonder how you feel about the comments directed towards Chinese Thai or jek as they are often referred (not by me I must add). Or the internment of the Chinese at Angel Island when they immigrated to the west coast of US. Or the Thais view that Chinese have taken over their country.

Of course, the Chinese Thai has transformed themselves to become "super Thai" or more Thai than their countrymen. The powers to be have even tried to re-write history and say that all Thais came from China! It reminds me about the Mexicans who are mixed with indigneous people but are ashamed of their history. Now their is a report that a vast majority of Thais are mixed with the Mons! I am sure that this information will face stiff resistance....Thais mixed with hilltribes? No way!!!

Anyway, you must be very careful Heng because the tables can turn on you depending on what part of the world you are living. This nationalism of Thai-ness seems to be a major con being played by the people in power. They are reflecting anti-immigraton away from them and towards other people. Why? Because they can continue to make fortunes and retain power while keeping the general population pre-occupied with other groups.

I would think that making generalizations against anyone regardless of race, colour, sexual preferance, or any other factors is plain wrong and change should begin one person at a time. It is a major cop out to say its alright because the world does it.

I might add if you were a german during Nazi Germany would you throw up your hands and say the extermination of Jews, gays, gypsies, etc was alright because so many of the poulation shared these views?

I find it amazing that racism exists in so many forms. In America it exists against people of colour and in Asia there is a racism against westerners. How does this happen? I believe the main culprit is nationalism. There is a very fine line between nationalism and racism.

Also ignorance plays a major role as well as people who manipulate the race card for their own material benefit. We have people all over the world who use the race card who are maintaining their wealth and power through the use of it.

I have travelled to many countries all over the world and I cannot say a single sterotype could be applied to any people, race, or region. I am not being naive.

Some people might agrue that Africa, Southeast Asia, and India (to name a few) are examples of inferior races. What nonsense! Try to imagine if these countries of the world had the military technology to submit the rest of Europe under their countrol (The Moors were almost successful in Spain). This part of the world despite having most of the world's natural resources were victims of explotation and colonization. Africa is a good example. The western powers carved up the entire country and split up communities.

Perhaps I am being naive or politically correct but I believe that by not making judgements of other people based on their orgin, skin colour, etc is a much better approach.

Heng, you might want to consider if your ideas are formed by a more sinister outside force. it is the oldest game known to mankind......cause disharmony between the masses and the elite will stay in power.

On the muslim issue. I find it really disappointing and sad that so many people harbor misinformation about the US. I watched a CNN report and it was shocking what some young people believe about the US today. When asked where they got their information they responded that it came from newspapers and the internet. They believe that if something is on the internet then it must be true!

I did take a trip through Muslim countries before and I can assure you that not all are extremists (Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Israel, Egypt). Unfortunately, I think the only cure for ridding ourselves of racism is through education and down playing nationalism. sadly, I think this will take a long time as long as there are people who believe they are better than other people.

[kwiz117]

Unfortunately, I think the only cure for ridding ourselves of racism is through education and down playing nationalism. sadly, I think this will take a long time as long as there are people who believe they are better than other people.

In a perfect world, yes.

But in our world,

I think people educated are more nationalist and self centered than uneducated people. Actually uneducated are grouping or following these educated people and they make them Nationalists/Racists coz they are unable to come to constructive conclusions without someone elses help.

I think it is time to get ready to accept Rasism/Nationalism coz the world is going more and more towards it than otherwise.

[monitorlizard]

kwiz

I agree with you that educated people can be racist but I would point out that one who harbors racist views or feelings of superiority are not very smart. They may have lots of degrees but they failed to learn while in school.

I think that if people in power stopped blaming outsiders for social ills or problems that they are not fixing then the uneducated masses would not be harboring prejudices. Oh yes they might......against the people in power!

[stumonster]

thanks for providing some very interesting reading

I believe that much education is imbued with racism, intentional or otherwise.

teaching logical thinking rather than instruction in a subject might be a way to overcome this problem.

and the amount of hollywood movies ( based on true stories no less ) that are rewriting history with their special slant, are a scurge on society.

education and communication

reading( for comphrehension) , chess ( for logical thinking ) and internet ( for communication)

and again kwiz, thanks for your efforts in your posts , I think most of the misunderstandings of what you are trying to say is based on lack of comprehension of your posts.

...and drugs for perspective...lol....

[plachon]

I think it is time to get ready to accept Rasism/Nationalism coz the world is going more and more towards it than otherwise.

And why not just accept US hegemony, ecological destruction, nuclear proliferation and totalitarianism while we're about it, Kwiz? What a cheerful world we'll leave our children. Or perhaps you don't have any? You're certainly quite content to accept blatant racism, and call it something else.