Prison Trips Mulled For Violent Students

[webfact]

Prison trips mulled for violent students

By The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Education Minister Chinnaworn Boonyakiat is considering introducing field trips to Corrections Department facilities for students of Rajamangala University of Technology's Uthen Thawai campus and Pathumwan Institute of Technology, in order to deter them from using further violence against each other.

He said he had assigned Deputy Education Minister Chaiwuti Bannawat to seriously tackle the issue of students brawling at the two institutions and to get all involved parties responsible for solving the problem.

If that approach fails, the ministry will consider sending at-risk students to study in provincial campuses, or moving the two schools to new locations - as well as having the students visit prison facilities.

Prison field trips should persuade them to stop their assaults on rival students by getting them to understand that strict punishment is the consequence of using violence in society, said Chinnaworn.

-- The Nation 2010-02-07

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[Scott]

Back in the late 70's and early 80's prison visits were being tried in the US. As I recall, they were discontinued, because they led to an increase in incarceration rates among those in the program. It seemed it was like a pre-placement visit for a lot of youth. It was sort of a 'badge of honor' for the delinquent sub-culture.

Second, it is hard to define the at-risk group.

Finally, criminals, especially younger ones, don't really think they will get caught.

They need to think this one out carefully.

Is anyone aware of any studies on this method that have been used other places?

[way2muchcoffee]

Sounds like a decent idea to me. The kids they are talking about are enrolled at technical colleges and engage in violent campus rivalries. For this group, many of whom are just ordinary kids from middle income families, prison visits just might have a positive effect. Or not.

[scorecard]

This has been going on for decades. Various punishments have been discussed but never implemented.

- Let's please see some actual punishment which stings for the kids involved. And if some receive jail terms (after all several students have been murdered and serious maimed for life), then so be it.

- Let's demand some accountability from the school directors who have done very little to try to bring this under control and seem to be incapable of bringing it under control.

- I'm told there are teachers at these institutes who fire up these kids, let's see some serious punishment for these people also - like immediately banned from teaching forever and banned forever from having further contact with these kids for any purpose whatever.

- Let's get some credible police into the picture - the statements from the police over the last 20 years that I can recall show they have no idea whatever of how to tackle this ('let's have a ceremony where they all kiss and make up and it will all be solved').

- There's also the aspect of danger to the public, on numerous occasions the public has had to flee for their lives when these kids start their battles, including firing guns in the midst of the public.

Let's get serious, please.

[geriatrickid]

The minister is getting a bit desperate, isn't he?

What's wrong with expulsions and bannings from the campus?

[Garry9999]

The minister is getting a bit desperate, isn't he?

What's wrong with expulsions and bannings from the campus?

So they can brawl on the street?

[Bagwan]

.Prison field trips should persuade them to stop their assaults on rival students by getting them to understand that strict punishment is the consequence of using violence in society, said Chinnaworn

That very much depends on who you are or who you know.

[otherstuff1957]

This has been going on for decades. Various punishments have been discussed but never implemented.

- Let's please see some actual punishment

- Let's demand some accountability from the school directors

- I'm told there are teachers at these institutes who fire up these kids, let's see some serious punishment for these people

Absolutely! There is little or no accountability in Thai schools in general . By the time they finish M3 Thai students know that they cannot fail and there will be no real punishment for any of their actions. Everything and anything can and will be forgiven. In addition, the students in the Technical Schools are those who are unable to attend a regular Matthayom, sometimes because they cannot afford to, but usually because they were unable to pass their O-Net exams. Consequently, they know that they are forever barred from attending a University or getting a high-status/high paying job or ever becoming a Member of Parliament. At the age of 16 they have suddenly found that their lives and ambitions have well-defined limitations. They know that they will never accomplish much, so winning a fight now or being accepted as a member of a gang seems much more important to them than it would to a student in a regular High School or College.

What's wrong with expulsions and bannings from the campus?

Nothing is wrong with expulsions and bannings, if they actually happened. I think that a student has to actually be convicted or murder or rape before they're kicked out of school.

[animatic]

A bit of a stay in stir, will quicken the sense... as time slows to a crawl.

Include a '1/2 hour alone in a cell' visit...

tell them an half an hour, but then leave them for 3 + hours,

let them get the real feel of 'not getting to leave when you want to....'

You can't get out, it stinks, it's BORING, uncomfortable,

and it just keeps going on and on and on...

Those that would think this is a badge of honor will go in for a stretch

with or with out a visit. Most kids will get the point quickly.

[Scott]

So, Animatic, you think it's perfectly OK to lock up people who have done nothing in an adult jail cell for an extended period of time just to teach them a lesson?

[harrry]

.Prison field trips should persuade them to stop their assaults on rival students by getting them to understand that strict punishment is the consequence of using violence in society, said Chinnaworn

That very much depends on who you are or who you know.

Of course the prison trips should be long enough.....say 15 years.

[animatic]

So, Animatic, you think it's perfectly OK to lock up people who have done nothing in an adult jail cell for an extended period of time just to teach them a lesson?

Two points

a ) Alone. Not with the usual collection of demented misfits...

but maybe across the hall from some...

b ) They wouldn't be there if they weren't screwing up to begin with.

So I don't think the done nothing applies in this case.

3 hours is not really extended, but long enough for him or her

to get a good idea what they bad path can lead too.

And face it they can do this amount of time to anyone and then say charges dropped

and ain't squat you can do about it.

They have done this in USA, in gang areas it hasn't worked for the ear;lier badge reason,

but it has worked in other areas for many kids.

The 'Put the fear of god into them, tough love', approach.

[ballpoint]

Prison field trips should persuade them to stop their assaults on rival students by getting them to understand that strict punishment is the consequence of using violence in society, said Chinnaworn.

Or they could be sent along to the Yubamrung family compound to see the consequences, sorry, benefits of violence as used by the rich and powerful.

[scorecard]

Prison field trips should persuade them to stop their assaults on rival students by getting them to understand that strict punishment is the consequence of using violence in society, said Chinnaworn.

Or they could be sent along to the Yubamrung family compound to see the consequences, sorry, benefits of violence as used by the rich and powerful.

Nice point!

The tech school kids know very well that if you are from a rich and famous family (but infamous is more likely the appropriate word) and daddyhas no nesitation to pay whatever to get you out of trouble, abuse the police etc, then you can get away with anything.

So why can't I get away with the same antics? not fair!

[Credo]

So, Animatic, you think it's perfectly OK to lock up people who have done nothing in an adult jail cell for an extended period of time just to teach them a lesson?

Two points

a ) Alone. Not with the usual collection of demented misfits...

but maybe across the hall from some...

b ) They wouldn't be there if they weren't screwing up to begin with.

So I don't think the done nothing applies in this case.

3 hours is not really extended, but long enough for him or her

to get a good idea what they bad path can lead too.

And face it they can do this amount of time to anyone and then say charges dropped

and ain't squat you can do about it.

They have done this in USA, in gang areas it hasn't worked for the ear;lier badge reason,

but it has worked in other areas for many kids.

The 'Put the fear of god into them, tough love', approach.

If they are screwing up as you say, they they belong in court. If they are a part of what some bureaucrat has determined to be at-risk, then they don't get a presumption of any innocence whatsoever. Just deny them any semblance of human rights. Determine them to be guilty by virtue of the fact that they attend a technical school. Send them to a prison, lock them up for a while to teach them a lesson. That's what you think is a good idea?

[animatic]

You clearly don't understand what I am saying.

Obviously a nameless bureaucrat is not making this decision....

or maybe not so obviously since you seemed to think I was saying that...

I was not.

How this label of "High Risk" is come to can't just be from thin air.

But you DID say courts, and this is one of the tactics courts have used.

So a judge can order an 'object lesson'. And a visit to stir can make many

youth think twice about risking a return.

Face it, ANY cop in this country can lock you up for 3 hours,

and ain't NOTHING we can do about it. Same for USA and Europe too for that matter.

So to say this is beyond the pale in LOS is a joke. Is it right no,

but right and LOS are not always compatible to western sensibilities.

I did quite clearly say; let them think it is a short time, and when it is much longer than expected,

it would give the psychological impact of actual incarceration, not just a few minutes in a bad room.

And this might get the point closer to home, when their yells to be let out are ignored...

Is this nice, no, it's not SUPPOSED TO BE NICE...

It's supposed to scare them into thinking ahead.

I do know two people who this has actually worked for.

One mid teens, one late 20's. Older went on the wagon after,

totally turned a life around. Younger stopped kleptomania in stores,

and beating other kids, still pretty wild but not stupid wild...

This is exactly the tactic that worked for them both, and I

was happy to see the change in them back then.

Edited February 7, 2010 by animatic

[Credo]

The article says 'at-risk' not 'high-risk'.

Second, I have worked with juvenile offenders and 'at-risk' groups. An at-risk offender in this case is anyone attending one of the schools.

Does it work. It doesn't. Students who are not inclined to become delinquent do not benefit from it. Students who are pulled toward a delinquent subculture see it as a badge of honor.

I have little faith that Thai authorities will either correctly identify in any way those that could benefit from this treatment. Remember, there is no talk about those who are already in the court system. This is just an arbitrary and capricious plan to discriminate against students. It has not been an effective program elsewhere and I doubt that Thailand will put the polishing touches on it to make it work.

The sad part about programs like this is that they sound good, but will the violence or killing stop--I think not.

[geriatrickid]

What are these people in school for? Brawling 101, or an education? I would expect that the vast majority of students only participate in this nonsense because of peer pressure and the "pressing" mentality that governs mobs. Remove the key instigators through expulsion and banning from the campus and the peace will return. If the troublemakers return to campus, those are the ones that should be detained. I guarantee that once a few of the troublemakers are disposed of, the stupidity will stop. better yet, give the troublemakers an option, military service or jail. 2 years in the south will encourage them to grow up fast.

[bangon04]

A bit of a stay in stir, will quicken the sense... as time slows to a crawl.

Include a '1/2 hour alone in a cell' visit...

tell them an half an hour, but then leave them for 3 + hours,

let them get the real feel of 'not getting to leave when you want to....'

You can't get out, it stinks, it's BORING, uncomfortable,

and it just keeps going on and on and on...

Those that would think this is a badge of honor will go in for a stretch

with or with out a visit. Most kids will get the point quickly.

"ALONE" in a cell?? - are we talking about HiSo prisons in Thailand?

[Bagwan]

50 years ago in the UK it was common for juvenile delinquents to be given the choice - time in a young offenders establishment and carry a black mark against your name for life or join the Services as a Boy Entrant which meant that you would not live in Civvy Street again until you were at least 25. I can vouch that the harsh, but fair, disciplined environment of Service life soon sorted out the Jack the Lads. I can tell you that the roughy-toughies found the initial going very up hill and it was not unusual to hear a few sobs from them after lights out.

The 'do gooders' campaign brought an end to entry into the Armed Services until attaining the age of 17 and a half years. Something else they got wrong IMO.

[lopburi3]

Several off topic posts removed.

[L33tsp33k]

Does anyone know why they are fighting/have some sort of rival? Just curious.