The Bond Of A Buddhist Wedding Ceremony

[BenMajor]

I originally started this thread over in the Thai Ladies Forum, but, upon suggestion, I have reposted it here.

My questions are concerning serious Buddhist beliefs, teaching and practices. They do not reflect a lack of appreciation for the practical or "realistic" side of things.

I'm an American business man. I am a little familiar with Thai Culture, but know little about Buddhism. Four years ago, I met a lovely Thai woman while on holiday in Thailand. Two years later we were married in her family home in Isaan with a lengthy Buddhist Wedding Ceremony, including seven monks and many rituals. We chose to deferr getting married on paper in amphur because a "K1" or "Fiancee Visa" to the U.S. for her would be easier, quicker and cheaper. Fast forward two years later, my wife and I had some issues and misunderstandings, the economy in the U.S. had gone down, and she and I debated the virtue of me taking a job offer in Thailand...Then she left me. From what I can tell, she took both a Thai man as boyfriend, and another farang as a future husband/patron...OK, same same game for many. Got it. Not debating that. Nor am I trying to hold on to anything that isn't there. I am, however, a curious and spiritual person, so I am wondering, from a Buddhist perspective...

1. Were we really ever married?
   
2. Can a spouse just walk away?
   
3. Are there different views for a male/husband and female/wife?
   
4. If a spouse walks away, are we still married?
   
5. Is their a Buddhist ritual/process equivalent to an a Annulment or divorce ceremony?
   
6. Is there any Buddhist prohibition against a man or woman hopping from one Buddhist Wedding Ceremony to the next, collecting cash and prizes along the way?
   
7. Or, in the extreme, can a woman line-up a bunch of monks, a line a men, and "marry" every man, one after the other? Does Buddhism allow for polygamy?
   

Thank u for any thoughts on this.

Ben

[Totster]

It's a non legal binding ceremony.

You are only married in Thailand legally if you register the marriage at the local Amphur office.

If you only had the buddhist ceremony, then for all intents and purposes you were never married, although saying that in the eyes of the local community (village) you were.. but this carries no rights for either party

totster

[samuibeachcomber]

(1) answer,yes you were,but not legally recognised by thai govt.

(2)answer,yes.

(3)answer,not to my knowledge.

(4)no,i dont think so,there's nothing binding in a thai ceremony,legally.

(5)i dont think so.you can just walk away,either party.(

(6)probably not,although after the ceremony you are both counselled on how to conduct your relationship by monks.I was told if i played up my wife shouls forgive me only one time,if it happened again the monk said she was entitled to walk away,fair enough too.

(7)would be too expensive anyway.

At the end of the day,the thai wedding ceremony with buddhist monks in attendance,is most thai women's dream but it is not legally binding,but is morally binding in the eyes of family and friends and the monks,how the couple play this out when things go wrong with the marraige is up to them.

Edited February 13, 2010 by samuibeachcomber

[Brucenkhamen]

There is no such thing as a Buddhist wedding ceremony, you would have had a Thai Wedding ceremony. Usually only connection with Buddhism is that you would have fed some monks and they would have chanted a blessing, often there are a mixture of Hindu and Animist rituals in there as well, and it will also vary from region to region depending on the cultural rituals prevalent there.

You were never legally married as you didn't sign the legal documents, at best you would be considered betrothed, obviously this is what you told the US government in order to get a fiancee Visa so it shouldn't have come as any surprise.

In this circumstance a Thai man would probably be expecting to get all his gifts back, I wouldn't hold out much hope of that though.

I don't think in any western country somebody would be considered married unless they had signed the legal documents either.

Yes in the extreme one could go through a ceremony with a whole lot of men I guess, but one couldn't legally marry more than one under the law.

[bina]

ben major: bruce's post is the best explanation, the one i was trying to give u but in a convuluted way.

btw, polygamy isnt condones but the situation of ahving a mia lueng mia noi is simililar (since a mia noi used to have, technically speaking, 'moral' rights to being taken care of by her husband, the welfare of her offspring etc. unlike just a 'piece on the side'... sort of like a concubine, not sure if a mia noi would have a ceremony with the husband unless the mia lueng would permit it... but that's a'nuther story....

so , u werent legally married, u are still single, she is making bad choices, and yes, thai men and women, who hae not registerd in the amphur, get up and walk away easily and quickly. no mess no fuss. but even then, the men are expected to contribute some funding towards their offspring (brother in law buys clothes/shcool books for his daughter) but doesnt neccesarily provide what westerners would call patrimony/alimony funds... all my sis' in laws' exs give money sporadically to their kids... all were married only in the community not with the amphur, although i understand that thailand preferring that married couples register nowadays, thats what i heard in husband's village anyhow...

bina

israel

[BenMajor]

There is no such thing as a Buddhist wedding ceremony...

That sets me straight. Thank you.

[BenMajor]

so , u werent legally married, u are still single, she is making bad choices

Yes. I think she is. I know that a Thai man she shacked up with in her village is a no-good card shark who is despised by many, and the Brit I think she's gone off with is a low-life, as well. (The gutter talk she's picked up the last six months was depressing to me.) The woman is beautiful beyond the norm, very intelligent in many ways, and she can be elegantly charming. So I asked her why she is getting involved with people I think are way beneath her capacity. She responded "because I'm low people!". It seems that between the implicit caste system in Thailand, high school drop-out rates, and the belief in "acceptance" and fatalism, many sad choices are made. I find it very hard to accept her choices, and I've prayed for her to stay safe and find a better way.

Edited February 14, 2010 by BenMajor

[bina]

oh well, end of story.

[BenMajor]

oh well, end of story.

Indeed. For my next story, I would prefer a light-hearted comedy...

[camerata]

If it's any consolation, people in the village would not respect her for this kind of behaviour.

[honu]

It's helpful here to think of the same circumstances in relation to Christianity. If a Christian pastor married you and you never told the state about it were you ever legally married? In America it would depend on state law; you might be able to get married and divorced with no paperwork, or maybe in retrospect a court wouldn't see any of it as valid. What if you got married by a local minister and then did it again a month later with no legal documents or divorce procedings in the middle, which marriage would be valid? A judge would probably have to make a judgement call. These issues mix culture, religion, and civil matters and those reference frames might say contradictory things.

One interesting related point here is that Thais have a tradition of male polygamy not unlike some minority cultures in America. It's hard to get anyone to talk much about that. My best guess is that it contradicts both Buddhism and modern Thai culture but since they never really closed the door on it in the civil arena it could still be a go. My wife's uncle got re-married and whenever I asked her if he's still married to his first wife she just clams up; if pressed she says "ask him".

[BenMajor]

It's helpful here to think of the same circumstances in relation to Christianity...

One interesting related point here is that Thais have a tradition of male polygamy...

Interesting points. Thanks...The only other point I would add is that I have been told by various people in various ways that "Money is the new Buddha" for many Thai people (and not just younger ones). Very sad, but it explains more for me. Money is the new Nirvana, but they feign Buddha while trying to attain it. Opportunism takes a backseat to morals, or at least Western notions of morality.

Edited February 17, 2010 by BenMajor

[rockyysdt]

Interesting points. Thanks...The only other point I would add is that I have been told by various people in various ways that "Money is the new Buddha" for many Thai people (and not just younger ones). Very sad, but it explains more for me. Money is the new Nirvana, but they feign Buddha while trying to attain it. Opportunism takes a backseat to morals, or at least Western notions of morality.

I also learned that in the pursuit of the new nirvana, many become expert at pandering to ones ego.

It's a finely honed art.

Of course, as the Buddha taught, attachment to ones ego will bring pain and suffering.

[camerata]

The only other point I would add is that I have been told by various people in various ways that "Money is the new Buddha" for many Thai people (and not just younger ones). Very sad, but it explains more for me. Money is the new Nirvana, but they feign Buddha while trying to attain it. Opportunism takes a backseat to morals, or at least Western notions of morality.

Not really. This is just the same old argument that Thais should be saints because they are Buddhists and that it's somehow "hypocritical" to make merit or participate in Buddhist ritual if you aren't a paragon of virtue. Morality has gone out the window in Europe. It's now normal for many UK women to have several kids by different fathers and live off welfare as single mothers. 1 in 5 young women now aim to be WAGs, i.e. get rich by becoming the wife or girlfriend of a football player or celebrity. MPs fiddle their expenses. Bankers get obscene bonuses while the taxpayer pays for their mistakes.

Thais may have become a lot more materialistic than they used to be, but consumerism came from the West. If you look at the 5 Precepts of Buddhism - which are very difficult to keep - it says nothing about not being allowed to make money. Thai Buddhists aren't looking for Nirvana, they are hoping for a fortunate rebirth, and making merit is one way to do it. This is not feigning Buddhism.

In the case of your ex-wife, if she's involved with two guys at the same time she's probably breaking the precept on sexual misconduct. On a deeper level, the idea of all the precepts is not to harm others or oneself. Marrying for money and then walking out on a partner for no good reason goes against that.

[camerata]

It's helpful here to think of the same circumstances in relation to Christianity. If a Christian pastor married you and you never told the state about it were you ever legally married?

I don't think that's applicable here. The Thai word for marriage is taeng ngan (make a ceremony), but for what you call a "legal" marriage it's jot tabien (register on a certificate). Historically, no one (except possibly aristocrats) had any kind of paperwork for a marriage. So the norm was to have a huge celebration with a lot of people and a lot of noise to let everyone know that you were married. The fact that people knew was the main thing. It's still done like that quite often upcountry. In Bangkok, even professional people will sometimes not register their marriage for business reasons. In this case, there is no divorce other than you stop living together and you tell people about it. Polygamy was only made illegal in 1935, but in practice no one takes much notice of that.

AFAIK, traditionally there was a stigma attached to a divorced woman in Thailand, so a woman would need a really good reason to leave her husband. That seems to have changed a lot lately, but maybe not completely.

For the OP's question, "Is there any Buddhist prohibition against a man or woman hopping from one Buddhist Wedding Ceremony to the next, collecting cash and prizes along the way?" I would say there is no specific Buddhist prohibition against it (and of course there is no "Buddhist Wedding") but culturally it's not acceptable. Of course, anyone who does that either doesn't understand Buddhism or doesn't care.

"Does Buddhism allow for polygamy?" The precept on "sexual misconduct" can be interpreted in different ways, but in Thailand it generally means monogamy (i.e. only one partner at a time).

[camerata]

I also learned that in the pursuit of the new nirvana, many become expert at pandering to ones ego.

It's a finely honed art.

Is there really a "new nirvana?" Did Thais or other Buddhists formerly only want nirvana and now only want money? I don't think so. Now, for the first time ever, many Thais have an opportunity to have some luxury goods and a better lifestyle than backbreaking work in the rice fields and crippling debt. So they are taking advantage of that because they never had it before. Who can blame them?

When I look around at Western Buddhists, mostly I see the middle-class, not the working class - people who have had money and realized it doesn't bring true happiness. It was the same in the Buddha's time. Over half of his known disciples were from the upper levels of society: Brahmins and merchants. We can't expect the poor to embrace Buddhism when they are living from hand to mouth. First, what they want is an easier life. Eventually they will find out for themselves that money doesn't bring lasting relief from suffering.

[rockyysdt]

Is there really a "new nirvana?" Did Thais or other Buddhists formerly only want nirvana and now only want money? I don't think so. Now, for the first time ever, many Thais have an opportunity to have some luxury goods and a better lifestyle than backbreaking work in the rice fields and crippling debt. So they are taking advantage of that because they never had it before. Who can blame them?

When I look around at Western Buddhists, mostly I see the middle-class, not the working class - people who have had money and realized it doesn't bring true happiness. It was the same in the Buddha's time. Over half of his known disciples were from the upper levels of society: Brahmins and merchants. We can't expect the poor to embrace Buddhism when they are living from hand to mouth. First, what they want is an easier life. Eventually they will find out for themselves that money doesn't bring lasting relief from suffering.

The expression "new nirvana" is new to me but I ran with Ben's quote.

I'm right behind your sentiments about wanting a better life, but my experience was much more than this.

Ben suggested that money & consumerism was driving the situation he found himself in.

Being a westerner I'm sure he had brought his wife some luxury & a better lifestyle, but in his experience it seems the drive was for even more. Either that or Ben turned out to be incompatible to his wife, but she put this aside for elevated status until someone better came along.

In my experience l saw an obsession, not for better, but for the very best, even by western standards.

For example the 8,000bht mobile phone wasn't good enough, it had to be the 17,000bht model, a figure obscene to many villagers who might work in backbreaking conditions to earn 200-300bht a day.

Rather than buying value for money, it appeared to be driven by an obsessional desire to flaunt ones status.

Edited February 18, 2010 by rockyysdt

[BenMajor]

The expression "new nirvana" is new to me but I ran with Ben's quote...Ben suggested that money & consumerism was driving the situation he found himself in...Either that or Ben turned out to be incompatible to his wife, but she put this aside for elevated status until someone better came along...In my experience l saw an obsession, not for better, but for the very best, even by western standards...For example the 8,000bht mobile phone wasn't good enough, it had to be the 17,000bht model...than buying value for money, it appeared to be driven by an obsessional desire to flaunt ones status.

Actually, I recounted what my wife had said "Money is the New Buddha", that is, it's what people respect, aspire for and find comfort in.

I was a bit incompatible with my wife. For one, I'm a farang, and many Thai woman find that a double-edge deal. My wife told me that if she only married for love, she would have settled on a Thai man. Secondly, we did not share a lot of interests together. Thirdly, I am far from perfect. Nevertheless, she indeed put that aside, because I was a good provider, very nice to her, very forgiving and she was proud of me in many respects. Until my income started to dwindle along with the economy. Then my limitations, interests, and faults grew tiring for her. That's not any different, I guess than any relationship in any place else. But it's particularly common and visible in places like Isaan.

You are correct that it was not just the desire for a better quality of life that drives them, but what I refer to as Bling Fever--irrational purchases of crass products. These same villagers may not have enough money to send their kid to a better school or go to a better doctor or buy a thousand more useful things, but they spend, hock themselves and manipulate others to get the flashiest SUV, TV, cellphones, jewelry, orchids, and aesthetic house remodeling. And yes, the phone she wanted was the best and newest out there. It's like a badge of Coolness and Savvy they love to flaunt and fondle.

What a lot of these people now care about is plain and simple: showing-off, keeping-up and besting their friends and neighbors with the nicest toys. The practical stuff? Saving for a rainy day? Hahahah.

Frankly, I think one reason my wife left is that the villagers, on the whole, did not see her getting enough cool stuff from me, and they kept teasing her more and more about it, until it went from teases to free "advice" wrapped in sincere "concern" for her happiness. It started getting to her. That's not excusing her; it's just the context of her decision...I didn't build a new house for her parents. Our SUV was six years old and was humbly low to the ground...What kind of farang husband is he?

It seems that just as the villagers--the community--help add meaning to the wedding ceremony by recognizing the couple as just that, a couple--they can also can take away meaning from the marriage. They can retract their view of validity, if most of them form the opinion that the driving goal of the marriage is not being met. Where is the cool stuff? Bringing shame to the family by not showering them with greedy status symbols, seems rather shallow and unhealthy. And it is.

Mind you, I have seen this same purchasing behavior in other poor populations that get exposed to a growing torrent of manipulative advertising and then get some cash to succumb to it. But if these purchases were made using money honestly and ethically earned, that is one thing. But a lot of this new found wealth comes from vulnerable suckers who are fed false promises of love, fidelity and devotion. Marriage, in this sense, then, are less about two people partnering together to raise a healthy family and sustaining crops. It's about attaining ephemeral status through ill-gained luxury goods.

Stealing hearts to buy fancy things seems to be the increasing norm, something that mothers encourage their daughters to pursue. It is an industry that that seasons incoming farang, squeezes the life-blood out of them, and them throws their sorry carcasses overboard into the Chow-Phraya (figuratively speaking, of course). Certainly other countries are known for "mail-order brides" and gold-digging nymphets holding multiple simultaneous love-chats with unsuspecting lonely men sitting far away in lands of magical opulence. But it just doesn't seem as prevalent in other places, per capita or otherwise.

Edited February 19, 2010 by BenMajor

[sabaijai]

This thread is no longer about Buddhism and is thus closed.