Understanding Traditional Issan Music Scores

[simon43]

This is maybe the best forum to post this question.

Perhaps someone can help me to read music scores for traditional Issan songs, such as played on the khaen.

I am just starting to learn to play this wonderful instrument, and have found a great source of music scores on scorethai [dot] appspot [dot] com

However, on that website, these songs are not written down using 'western' music notation, but written in Thai letters to represent do ray me far etc.

I can read Thai, so that's ok. But I am not sure about how to read and play these music scores. Some letters are underlined, some have a second subscript letter, some have a dash. The letters are arranged in groups of 4, sometimes 3.

Can someone who is familiar with that website, or who understands this notation system, please explain it to me!

Thanks - Simon

[jazzbo]

Hello Simon -- the trick to 99% of Isaan-Lao-Morlam music is that it is in Aeolian mode including the mp3 of the first song on the website you referenced:

-- that and a good ear... I play it these days on my 3 octave melodica... my favorite is the late Honey Sri Isaan who mostly used B-flat Aeolian scale.

[jazzbo]

The Theory and Practice of Thai Musical Notations

TE Miller (PhD) - Ethnomusicology, 1992 - jstor.org

http://www.jstor.org/pss/851914

... pay the piper US$ 7.00

bio at http://www.jstor.org/pss/3398809

[montrii]

Simon, good question, I wish I could give a good answer! I'm a musician, and have wanted to play the khaen since spending 2 years teaching in Isaan many years ago. Back then there were Isaan cultural centers in all the major towns where you could learn the music. I heard then that khaen masters taught by tying the fingers of the students to their own fingers, to get the students used to the patterns.

Moh Lam, and Isaan music in general, ain't what it usedta be. What passes for moh lam these days is a kind of western-influenced hybrid, more Western than Lao. Similar to the corruption of the term "R&B" in Western music.

Jazzbo's post about the aeolian mode isn't exactly accurate, and certainly doesn't answer your question about the subscripts, underlining, etc. I would assume those marks indicate things like simultaneous notes, different octaves, etc., but I've never encountered them before. This won't answer those particular questions, either, but it's a good site about the khaen: http://www.ksanti.net/free-reed/essays/khaenlaos.html. Good luck in finding more answers--I hope that if you find any, you'll post them.

[jazzbo]

Jazzbo's post about the aeolian mode isn't exactly accurate, Morlam-Lao-Isaan is not 7-tone classical Thai music... based on my collection of morlam CDs, YouTube listenings, and multitudinous taxi rides with Isaan drivers, the comment about Aeolian mode is

(as in My Cousin Vinny) 100% dead on balls accurate.

[jazzbo]

Great YouTube.com video/music called 'Lao Village Music Party':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76Vo0fxkNPE

8+ minutes including strings and Kaen of pure Aeolian 'C' scale

(posted from Khon Kaen)

Edited February 17, 2010 by jazzbo

[bina]

u guys must have telephathy!!!

a week ago, a friend who works with me at the hotel asked about thai music scores (i had shown him utube clips of phin music since hubby has tuned his cheap guitar to phin sound)... my friend is a musician student , studying in israeli academy of music: he plays the oud (arab stringed instrument)and performs also... i found a few phin utube sites (hubby found them in thai) with a pic of the notation... salem wants more info and i just couldnt find any in my google search (in english although arabic would be ok for him also)...

any more info for real music people (i havent a clue what im reading but he will )about thai classic and thai issaan scales notation etc?

although the academy does western musicology and obviously arab/muslem musicology, s.e. asia doesnt get much notice (asia minor countries do however) and he is interested...

if there are music people out there, he will willingly meet through facebook also ... its so fun to meet people interested in music that isnt the usual 'world music' fusion, circle of drums stuff (very popular here)...

hubby has found someone that is selling phin electric and acoustic who will ship overseas , but to expensive so has decided to try to build his own. and he is teaching himslef by listening to clips and playing....

btw, here's some clips from the guy selling the phins and some explanations in thai http://www.oknation.net/blog/pin-thai

oh.! jazzbo, i see u found a site i found... yeah, i dont want to pay for info either, but he might be willing (he's not exactly a starving music student), i did try info from the thai unis and i get their curriculum but maybe im not wording my searches correctly...perhaps as a student he can try through their library computer and get the info free (some unis have a deal like this).

any other ifo both for hubby (in thai ok) or salem , we are interested in more....

bina

israel

[jazzbo]

... As music is traditionally taught by ear, there is no established system of notation. As a result, this art is in grave danger of fading away.

This from Lao Heritage Foundation, USA, which starts their Kaen lessons at

http://www.laoheritagefoundation.org/laomusic/kaen/ -- then click on 'Notation -- Here'

BTW for a simple explanation: With the 7-tone Thai classical scale as played on a e.g. a Lanat -- the wooden-bar Thai xylophone -- you cannot play a Western tuned instrument along with it. Morlam music, as you readily see on Thai television, can be played by guitars, organs, and saxophones.

Edited February 17, 2010 by jazzbo

[montrii]

Jazzbo's post about the aeolian mode isn't exactly accurate, Morlam-Lao-Isaan is not 7-tone classical Thai music... based on my collection of morlam CDs, YouTube listenings, and multitudinous taxi rides with Isaan drivers, the comment about Aeolian mode is

(as in My Cousin Vinny) 100% dead on balls accurate.

Well, without getting into too much detail about the 100% dead balls, very close, but no cigar. As noted in the article I cited, the khaen isn't tuned to absolute pitch. It's pretty close to a C scale (A natural minor), but not always right there. Moh lam and the Isaan music of today has become really westernized, and in fact it is extremely hard to find recordings of khaen players in the pre-electronic music generation. You're right that you can play along with the new recorded music in A minor, but that's because of the homogenization and modern production of the stuff. So, sure, A natural minor, I won't argue--actually I originally just said "not exactly accurate." But this is completely beside the point of how to read the notation, which was simon43's original question. And going to the link you mentioned, I still don't see the answer to that.

[simon43]

I emailed Christopher Adler about this, (a Khaen master living in the USA). His comment was:

'The Thai notation is not really accurate and basically useless for learning. It shows a single stream of notes -- just the melody. But as you know, khaen music includes chords and various other effects. These are easily shown in Western notation (see my guide for examples) but cannot be effectively represented using Thai notation.

So you have to know the idiom to make the Thai notation useful, since there's a great deal of unwritten things you have to basically fill in yourself. Rhythmically it can also be a problem because it forces one to fit the music into the Thai rhythmic concept, and that is also not always accurate.'

OK, at least his reply confirms that the notation that I cited is the single note melody, not chords. The drone is indicated at the top of each of these scores. A dash above one of the Thai letters indicates that it is the next octave up (on a Khaen, this accounts for only a few notes).

I've been trying to correlate one of these scores against the mp3 audio of that song, but am still at a very early stage! However, apart from being a budding musician, I'm also a software geek! I can easily see how I could write a software application that would play the tones indicated by the Thai notation, thus enabling a MIDI interpretation of the melody to be played - this would help me to learn how to play the melody on the khaen.

Simon

[jazzbo]

it is extremely hard to find recordings of khaen players in the pre-electronic music generation.

I just gave you one on Youtube... the Lao Village Party and the Honey Sri Isaan recordings are pre-1991 because that is the year she died... as for the notation, all the work comes out of Mahasarakhan or Ubon ... Why don't you just get up and go as in --

Mahasarakham Department of Music -- http://www.inter.msu.ac.th/Faculties/?page=musical

I went through every one of the Mp3s including the one at Kuhn S's notes and they all correspond to Aeolian mode.

So are you an ethno-muisicologist or a musician? The Lao Heritage Foundation stated: As music is traditionally taught by ear, there is no established system of notation.

... and I have a great time playing 4-note chords in Aeolian mode that mostly correspond to the kaen chords.

Note: I did not see Simon's last post -- So he writes a Kaen master in the USA who tells him "Screw the Notation" -- So ditch the stroboscopic analyzer and learn the modes used by Kaen players and you're 98% home free.

Edited February 18, 2010 by jazzbo

[simon43]

One very important reason for learning the notation is to enable songs to be written down for future generations. Passing skills down from generation to generation is great, but like chinese whispers, the original idea/skill/song will change as it is passed down. If the original idea was also written down in a legible fashion, then it can still exist many generations later.

I don't agree with what Christopher Adler says. If I can understand the Thai notation on scorethai, then I can retranscribe the songs into a more understandable format - and thus make them available for others.

Simon

[montrii]

it is extremely hard to find recordings of khaen players in the pre-electronic music generation.

I just gave you one on Youtube.

Wow, thanks, I had missed the YouTube post. Really takes me back, and there is a lot of great moh lam stuff posted there. When I lived for 2 years up in Northeast Thailand back in the age of the dinosaurs, I caught a fair amount of stuff like this live, and I never thought it would disappear. Note these clips are from Laos, not Thailand. This is indeed hard to find in the Northeast these days, and CDs of it are hard to find in the stores, at least that has been my experience.

[jazzbo]

Another approach would be to get some good CDs and use transcribing software such as:

http://www.reedkotlermusic.com/transkriber.htm

[jazzbo]

One very important reason for learning the notation is to enable songs to be written down for future generations...

Personally, I would think it much more important that somebody do an 'Alan Lomax' routine and make high-quality recordings of some of the musicians in remote areas of Thailand and Laos before they and the music all die off... such as with the Lao Village video.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Lomax

Edited February 18, 2010 by jazzbo

[jazzbo]

Instant Kaen Mode lesson:

then watch this on youtube of Sombat Simlah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqpiVjQr5kE...feature=related

as Kuhn Sombat switches between modes and they are identified on the screen... BTW the first live Kaen playing I heard was at annual meeting of the Thai Association of the Blind in 2002.

[simon43]

Jazzbo, yes I had seen those Lai on the website about the Khaen. I guess one of my problems is that I have not played a musical instrument for almost 40 years! (I used to play the clarinet as a child and did learn to play the squeeze box more recently). The squeeze box wasn't too difficult because I was able to follow a tuition path of Irish jigs/reels transcribed from musical notation key presses for the instrument.

So if I am to self-teach to play the Khaen, I first need to do my homework about reading musical notation

But I also need some guidance from an experienced player, which may be rather difficult since I do not live in Issan and cannot attend the university courses/tuition at the local universities.

I understand that it is better to learn the different styles of Lai, rather than try to learn scales etc as one would do with a western instrument.

Simon

[jazzbo]

well Kuhn S., you can start here with Kaen lessons 1 & 2.

and then thte Sombat Simlah video in the post above goes through the modes which are identified on the screen each time he switches mode.

[coalminer]

Jazzbo, yes I had seen those Lai on the website about the Khaen. I guess one of my problems is that I have not played a musical instrument for almost 40 years! (I used to play the clarinet as a child and did learn to play the squeeze box more recently). The squeeze box wasn't too difficult because I was able to follow a tuition path of Irish jigs/reels transcribed from musical notation key presses for the instrument.

So if I am to self-teach to play the Khaen, I first need to do my homework about reading musical notation

But I also need some guidance from an experienced player, which may be rather difficult since I do not live in Issan and cannot attend the university courses/tuition at the local universities.

I understand that it is better to learn the different styles of Lai, rather than try to learn scales etc as one would do with a western instrument.

Simon

Simon,

As I understand your question, you want to be able to read and write scores played on the Khaen.

First, original Thai music has no "half tones".

If you try any Thai fretted instrument or a Thai instrument with fixed tones (ranad), you wil play Do, Re, Mi and then the following tone will sound completely wrong to our Western ears.

Due to this music scale, traditonal western music notation is completely of no use to Thai traditional music.

Other Thai musical instruments with no fixed tones, such as the Pia or the Phin Pia manage better to keep the Westen tone scale when needed.

But most of the Thai music instruments are now produced in the Thai scale AND the Western scale.

An example of a music score for the Khaen in Western style can be seen here:

And here is an example of a Thai music score for the Khaen:

As you can see, the Thai music score is only to give the rythm.

The traditional tha music notation is very easy to understand:

1. Write only the NAME of the tones for a particular instrument.

Example:

Monotone music score for a 3 phin in 4/4 rythm:

- - - ล / - - - ซ / - - ม ล / - - ด ล / - - - ซ / - - ม ล /

The same score in 3/4 (Waltz) rythm:

- - - / ล - - / - ซ - / - ม ล / - - ด / ล - - / - ซ - / - ม ล /

2. Use a tabular page to write the scores as the example below:

HTH

[jazzbo]

Lao-Thai traditional music -- or any folk-style traditional music -- is not the 'Budapest String Quartet'... if you can't have fun with it, why bother? ... BTW after all this posting my new kaen is on order and will arrive in about 2 weeks.

BTW2 I certainly do not have 'perfect pitch' -- to see that in action is really scary -- but close enough to pick things up...

Edited February 22, 2010 by jazzbo

[simon43]

Jazzbo, yes I have already seen those Khaen lessons on Youtube, as well as dozens of other khaen videos. But watching a 3 minute video on Youtube is not the same as factual specifics about the instrument, some initial notes to practice, then some chords, then some variation between notes, then some very basic tunes etc etc. There has to be a procedure to learning any musical instrument (sorry, I'm a methodical sort of person), rather than just picking it up and moving your fingers.

I'm sure (eventually), one can learn to play by the latter method, but I prefer to follow a more methodical procedure, at least for getting to grips with the very basics required for playing the khaen.

And learning like that is fun! at least for me

Simon

[jazzbo]

Everyone has their own idea of fun... most of the persons that you hear and see in those videos have been playing for 40 years or more -- including Sombat Simlah -- and I daresay that not one of them learned to play as you have described. Good Luck.

[coalminer]

Jazzbo, yes I have already seen those Khaen lessons on Youtube, as well as dozens of other khaen videos. But watching a 3 minute video on Youtube is not the same as factual specifics about the instrument, some initial notes to practice, then some chords, then some variation between notes, then some very basic tunes etc etc. There has to be a procedure to learning any musical instrument (sorry, I'm a methodical sort of person), rather than just picking it up and moving your fingers.

I guess you have already these factual specifics about the instrument, some initial notes, chords, variation between notes ,basic tunes, etc.

But if not, here is a "basic" sheet of the Khaen.

I'm sure (eventually), one can learn to play by the latter method, but I prefer to follow a more methodical procedure, at least for getting to grips with the very basics required for playing the khaen.

And learning like that is fun! at least for me

Simon

That's what learning is all about.

You must have fun in learning.

Otherwise the whole time will be spend for nothing.

Edit:

If you are learning very fast, you can play maybe the "Loy Grathong" song on the sheet for your "tee rak".

Edited February 22, 2010 by coalminer

[jazzbo]

"We partner with Thongtanh Souvannaphanh and Bounseung Synanohn, two of the last few masters in traditional Lao music. As music is traditionally taught by ear, there is no established system of notation." Lao Heritage Sociey (USA)

According to TIME Magazine (15 NOV 1963) John Lennon never learned to read music... I guess he wasn't very methodical.

[simon43]

Coalminer, where did you get that basic sheet from? It's very useful!

Jazzbo, one rason why I adopt my methodical approach is because my family are 'scientists', not 'artists'. So my artistic streak is perhaps way below yours

Simon

[jazzbo]

Kuhn S. -- The Kaen is a folk instrument from a folk music tradition and has been generally taught in an informal 'folk' manner... I tried to find a copy of Terry E. Miller's book on the Kaen but it is out-of-print and I could only locate a few used expensive copies in Germany...

Dr. Adler was kind enough to reply to you and called the notation you suggested 'useless'... and I believe that preservation is far better served by field recording of the older generation of rural players -- not in notation.

When I worked in the oil&gas software world (systems level, not coding) we used the term 'paralysis by analysis'... and as a performing musician I realized 99% of the audience cannot tell when you played a wrong note...

[jazzbo]

I found that there is a copy of Terry E. Miller's 'Traditional Music of the Lao -- Kaen Playing...' in the Music 'stacks' of a University Library in one of my destination towns on my next trip to USA (May-June) ... maybe they will let me copy at least a portion of it.

[coalminer]

Coalminer, where did you get that basic sheet from? It's very useful!

Simon

From our shop.

[coalminer]

Coalminer, where did you get that basic sheet from? It's very useful!

Simon

http://www.seasite.niu.edu:85/thai/music/c...heory/scale.htm

http://131.156.68.78/thai2/music/classical...ry/notation.htm

FYI.

Coalminer

[jazzbo]

I found 2 Kaen instruction books in Thai language here in KK -- one dated year 2540 and the other 2544 -- they seem to overlap or that the smaller one is a recent printing (the larger one is a xerox-type reproduction of the older version) -- one is 50B and the other 150B -- I bought the 50B one -- they seem to have many of the same illustrations -- the shop had the basic sheet mentioned above as a handout... would be willing to send a copy of either book to the methodically inclined.

Nice musical examples Kuhn CM -- kind of like comparing the New York Philharmonic with Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys