Sinsod Is Making Me Crazy

[Latindancer]

Cut her off at the knees. Let her know she messed with the wrong farang. but in the nicest way, always with a smile.

Correct ! It must NEVER .............EVER..................get nasty. If you ever get nasty, you lose face. Always keep the moral high ground. Loz's suggestions are good, but as he says.....a bit extreme. What you want to do is simply act like a powerful person, in an almost absent-minded fashion.....as if it is natural for you to have others wait while you finish long phone calls etc. If she objects, switch to another version of the same game......but always with you calling the shots. Do it in YOUR territory, or a place where you can do this. If you're unused to doing this, make a written list of things you might be able to do......as a reminder.

Some old women like this are so used to being in control that they do it almost unconsciously. It will take a bit of effort to turn the situation around, but it can be done.

Be creative ! Have fun !

Edited February 17, 2010 by Latindancer

[sanook2me]

These people are preying on your naivety to this situation. This includes your girlfriend because she knows full well that with children already, she doesn’t deserve any Sinsot. The situation here, which you might not be familiar with my friend, is that a girl who has been with another guy before, or worse still has children already, isn’t desirable to anyone in good Thai society.

Thai men will not want to be in a relationship with a woman who’s been married previously (or as in the case of these Isaan folk, just living together).

I had the biggest lesson about Thailand myself after I met a middle-class Bangkok girl who’s from a good family and I’ve learnt more from her and the way Thai society operates, than anything before. Before that I was completely naive about these poor folk in Thailand. They are interested in money only but decent Thai men won’t touch them. That’s why they latch onto foreigners – foreigners don’t care about the girls’ pasts.

I’m sorry for you with your situation, because you love the girl etc. etc. My advice is to keep the relationship going if you want to but don’t marry. The mother sounds like she’s completely ungrateful and very low-class. A visitor to her home should be treated with respect and what you describe is quite frankly an indication that she does not want her daughter to be involved with a foreigner. However, money is paramount in these people’s eyes, irrespective of how they came by it. Therefore, she’s interested solely in your money and nothing else.

If the family want their daughter to be happy and secure, they won’t ask for a Sinsod, given that she has children already.

The situation where a Sinsot is applicable is as follows. A good family bring up their daughter and take care of her. She stays at home with the family and does not get into casual relationships. She does not sleep with any man. When the time comes that a man shows interest in her, marriage is discussed and a Sinsot is agreed.

In your situation, the girl has ruined her chances of securing a Sinsot by having a casual relationship with someone. There is also no guarantee that this girl has finished the relationship with the man. If he’s Thai, he could be living in their village and they have not ended their relationship. This is another thing that the Isaan people do on a regular basis. They are quite happy to have long-distance relationships and for the years to pass by with them being away from each other. During this time they experience casual relationships whilst still regarding themselves as being a couple. This is what they do. I have talked with many of them and I can promise you, it’s totally normal for them. They do not have the same morals as middle-class Thai families. They have other more pressing problems, like surviving.

I hope you see sense my friend and get someone good that you deserve.

have you just read a book on relationships in Thailand

i enjoyed your post

They do not have the same morals as middle-class Thai families

I guess you mean the poor people have better morals than the tax evading poor people repressing middle classes

It sort of erks me when people say poor families are only interested in money... isn't everyone

[CHdiver]

:D :D

[TheJoker12]

why r u paying some girl with 2 kids whom no thai man would touch with a ten foot pole 20k baht a month? she is not a good girl there is no expectation of sin sod at all in her future. sounds like this girl and her mom think u r just another idiot.

[Newguy70]

Enough already...

Every 3 days a post about Sin Sod? Please use the search function.

I thought it was all covered here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Sin-Sod-Expl...ion-t85581.html

Enjoy your stay.

[manjara]

My wife says that you should give 1 baht gold to the mother and then pay some months in advance for the kids, i.e. if you pay the mother 20k/month then pay 100k and then don't pay anything for 5 months. Obviously tell her that's what you're going to do!

It will also let you work out if the mother really gets 20k a month, if you give the money to your GF. You may give your GF 20k and she might pass on 3k to the mother!

[Birdman]

I think the mom is right. Just writing this because nobody is on her side. It would be interesting to read a thread started by her in Thai and all the Thai responses. And then a showdown between this thread and hers.

Much advice was posted already and more to come.

Anyway good luck, Mr Sinsod.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Birdman

[Mossfinn]

The double negative has confused a couple of people ("never not"). The poster surely meant he has always been offered or given refreshment.

At last, some proper advice

[poldebol]

Again: there is no historical proof that sinsod had to be paid for a bride in whole Thailand.

The market value of your wife is reduced by the fact she is from Isaan, maybe by her lack of education (not sure you mention this, but 13.000 a month for long working hours, points at low education), but most of all, by the fact that she has two kids. No Thai man will be interested in her. She can only marry a farang.

If you have paid 20.000 THB a month to her mother who lives in a one room house in BKK, you have given yourself a rubber stamp FARANG SATANG. Who figured this amount? In the village here, people who work in BKK send barely 1000 THB a month for a kid, some a bit more, many less.

If your mother in law tries to get more from you than what she got already (she can easily save 10.000 THB a month) this is just the first chapter of a never ending story, as you probably already know by now.

In Sinsod, the social control and pressure from the village and the family can be real, important and very strong. (My wife's family does not bother about it, but they like the show). The parents of the bride have to show they caught money from their son in law. The day I came in the village for the first time, people passing the house of my wife's parents shouted things like: "You are very rich people now!" and "Make sure we are invited!" and "Show your money soon!". We are four years later and I just got married. My wife has a master degree, a good job and no kids. I am the first farang in the village who marries a woman with that qualifications. The parents of my wife begged me to give them 100.000 THB sinsod. They promised to pay me back the day after the wedding. To help them win face. I gave them 350.000 THB, because the mother-in-law of another farang is always boasting that her son in law gave her 300.000 sinsod and gives her 40.000 THB a month (but now and then she comes sneaking in our house at night to borrow 500THB). The day after the wedding, my father-in-law gave me back the money secretly.

The pressure on him to show that he has money is so big that now he has decided to build an expensive wall around his house. He pays this on his own, maybe I will offer him to paint the wall and pay for it (not sure yet).

In a village, this is how strong the pressure can be. But I doubt this is the same in BKK.

If your mother-in-law lets you wait for seven hours in the heat and does not offer you a glass of water, what does she have to do to let you see the light? Boil you in a big pot and dance around it? Maybe she is just being honest with you!

I do not know whether your wife loves you. If you take good care of her two kids, she'd better.

Nobody should legally marry a Thai man/ lady if she/he has not lived here and with her/him for at least a few years, especially if there are kids involved. Being separated for a year will not help you to have a clear judgment either.

You have two options:

Run and cut your losses. I think GungaDin is right.

Tell your wife it is you or your mother. You have paid sinsod too much already. If your wife does not follow you in this, she will not follow you in big decisions after you are married. Her mother will always meddle in your marriage.

Why does your mother in law insist on April. Is she in debt? Has she made commitments already?

I live in a village where nearly all women spend some of their live in BKK or Pattaya. Most of them have no education. Everybody knows what (esp. the women) do, but nobody ever mentions it. I came here about one year ago. Before we lived in a big town for three years. I know Thailand since nearly thirty years. The situation still baffles me everyday.

The short sharp pain is better than the long dull pain. Do not decide before you feel you have some control and trust your wife 120%. There is no need to hurry.

[samuibeachcomber]

why r u paying some girl with 2 kids whom no thai man would touch with a ten foot pole 20k baht a month? she is not a good girl there is no expectation of sin sod at all in her future. sounds like this girl and her mom think u r just another idiot.

does the fact that she has two children by a thai man make her a bad girl?hardly.More like the thai father is the asshol_e here.There are so many instances where these creeps have run off and left their children and their mother high and dry with no income support.You could however say that farangs are stupid to pick up the tab.

[jackr]

Walk away.

... being sure to let her know you would have married her if it weren't for her mother.

[britmaveric]

She has 2 kids and unfortunately damaged goods. So pretty much she is worthless, remember its only for show, so in reality you pay nought. However sounds like her mum will actually keep it. Tell them to get stuffed and also stop paying 20k a month - tell her to get a job.

[buffcoat]

Sounds like an unpleasant situation and probably always will be.

If you were Thai there would be no question of a Sinsod of any amount. Instead mum would be at the Temple offering thanks for the good fortune that has smiled on her daughter.

I would pay for the wedding and give a present of gold to mum, a one baht bracelet would be fine.

It is clear that you need to assert your own power in this family. I know this sounds cold but if you do not do it now this situation will keep on appearing.

The wedding date cannot be in April. If you have decided to marry then pick the date with your wife to suit you and tell mum when it is, do not allow her any input to the choice.

Good luck

[kennkate]

My Wife has two kids to her previous marriage I was asked for 700.000 Baht. I asked myself the question how much would they expect from a Thai man.???

Even if she could get one to marry her with two kids. Doubtful as she is no stunner ( she is fine for me )

My response was "It may be Thia culture But it's not My culture. She has been married before and she has two kids

I was willing to take care of them, But I was not in a position to take care of the whole family". Got married in the UK so no fancy wedding

I did give them 15000 after the Event. Out of respect. I also built a small house for my wife, It's in her name.

We are now in the UK All in all total cost around the 1 Million Baht House air fares Visa fees Ect Ect Quite enough I think.

At lest if she ever wants to return to Thailand she has a house. Giving it to the in laws. to squander on beer and Lottery No way

[ivowatson]

You serve farang food that you love. in spadefuls on her plate. You ask, Can you eat bland food? ask several times to be sure, just like she would about "spicy". Be sure to give her heaps of farang food. No ice in her water. Tap water will do her good. Suggest you drink wine but don't offer her any unless you have an inferior bottle of cats pizzle to woo her with. Cut her off at the knees. Let her know she messed with the wrong farang. but in the nicest way, always with a smile. If you are driving her home stop at Big C on the way for an hour. take a phone call in the car that lasts the whole journey and is VERY loud. and of course in English and any other European languages you know.

Brilliant! The Big C stop and the phonecall probably will get the sinsod down as MIL will think this guy is just like one of us.

[Beardog]

She should be paying you the sinsod. 2 kids & a previous marriage = zero nada nill & void all previous payments already been made. Probably were better off giving her 5000 baht walking around money in the beginning 20,000 is a lot.I would just keep her as a girlfriend & end the families fishing expedition right there or trade her in on a newer model with less baggage & keep the expence down to 5000 baht (what most Thais make in a full time job) That way you are not the families atm. The sick buffalo story is right around the corner. More fish in the sea than buses in Thailand & who knows roll the bones again & you will most likely find one that works for you. If you have to ask yourself if it's right you have already answered your own question.

[spongeman]

I feel like this is going to end in disaster

You are correct.

Walk away, and take your g/f and kids with you.

If she won't, you know what your shares are really worth.

First reply nails it.

hear hear.

[Loz]

You serve farang food that you love. in spadefuls on her plate. You ask, Can you eat bland food? ask several times to be sure, just like she would about "spicy". Be sure to give her heaps of farang food. No ice in her water. Tap water will do her good. Suggest you drink wine but don't offer her any unless you have an inferior bottle of cats pizzle to woo her with. Cut her off at the knees. Let her know she messed with the wrong farang. but in the nicest way, always with a smile. If you are driving her home stop at Big C on the way for an hour. take a phone call in the car that lasts the whole journey and is VERY loud. and of course in English and any other European languages you know.

Brilliant! The Big C stop and the phonecall probably will get the sinsod down as MIL will think this guy is just like one of us.

And to think people think my time here has been wasted...

[jdinasia]

First of all, no sinsot is due when the woman has been previously married or has had children (unless they are your children of course).

Nothing else need be said.

[pardsie]

What was the origin of sinsod? Very confusing ...sometimes it is called sinsot other times sinsod. Where did paying for a Thai wife originate? Does one also pay for a Thai husband? If one has to or is asked to pay a sinsod for a wife are therefore daughters valued more than sons? Is that now why families have children? In other countries with different cultures and traditions requesting or demanding sinsod would be considered very offensive! Why must others understand Thai traditions and Thais not understand or care the least about others traditions? If sinsod is not all about money then why not a standard offering. The Thai people have become confused about their beliefs all farangs are wealthy and have a never ending supply of money. Why is that once a farang pays a sinsod then it usually doesn't end with that? Were the poor villagers happy with their life before this perceived newly found never ending windfall? Do most farangs go to Thailand to find a gentle kind softspoken wife or husband or do they go there to find a servant or sex slave? Nowadays with the internet it would behoove farang shoppers for a spouse to do quite a bit of research before going there. Is a woman not valued regardless of her past? Why does having been married once before tarnish a woman? It may sound very harsh but anyone who heads down the path of paying another person's family for the right to marry their child gets what they deserve. If a person eventually refuses what are they going to do take her back and try again? Where the heck does love come into play here?

[TheLaughingMan]

I agree completely Pardsie.

[gregchambers]

I don't understand all this stuff about Thai men not being interested in Thai women who have already been married and have kids, I see lots of Thai women with kids who have relationships with new Thai men.

I do agree that no sinsod should be the order of the day in this case but a returnable stack of baht on display for some face all round.

With the girlfriend not sticking up for the OP it does suggest there might be a Thai man in the background expecting to have his share of the goodies, either the father of the kids or a new Thai boyfriend. In fact, I don't understand why the girlfriend wasn't looking after him when he initially visited the mother - I mean did he actually look in the house to check if there was a Thai boyfriend inside. Stranger things have happened.

[joorakee]

I have nothing against sin sot, paying the woman a monthly "salary"* etc. I respect Thai culture (BTW, in Western countries men also often support their women financially - maybe more indirectly).

I can also imagine myself paying such money - if I were 50 years old and she, for example, 25. But now I am simply too young to do it.

A greedy prospective mother-in-low is another theme...

*I only don't understand those who give money to women they can't be with all the time. I mean a situation when a guy spends only 2 weeks~1 month in LOS and the rest of the year in his home country (and continues sending money to his GF after leaving Thailand).

[koan]

I'm glad this subject came up because I was just about to post about it. So today my girlfriend has "great news" - after vague comments to her parents about her plans in the past, she finally told them about me yesterday and briefly explained that we would likely get married in a not too distant future. Apparently their response was along the lines of "I suppose it's OK, just be careful" but her mum added "ต้องมีสินสอด" (Sin Sod). My girlfriend told them that I don't have money at the moment (I am starting a business so don't have any income), but she also assured them that I am "เก่ง(good) enough" to avoid becoming too poor to look after her.

My girlfriend lives in a medium sized town in Lanna. I haven't met her parents but my understanding is that they are decent, hard working but not well off. I don't expect they are trying to wring money out of me and at this stage it was just mentioned as an aside to their daughter.

I know about sinsod, its cultural origins and what most people are saying about it now. I've read a variety of definitions and opinions on it from Thai people and foreigners via various sources so I think I understand it well enough.

I detest the principle of sinsod with a passion. I can't explain why I'm so against it; I love my girlfriend and have already acknowledged to myself that I will have to compromise on many things in order to get married. I'm just not sure that I can force myself to pay up even if it is only a small amount that they promise to return. The notion is kind of offensive to me. If I get married I believe it should be a joining of equals, regardless of background; I don't see how $ fits into this equation. I honestly feel quite sick at the thought of paying.

Of course I am going to discuss this and many other details at length with my girlfriend well in advance. If we do get married, chances are we will do it in the UK and possibly a second time in Thailand for her family at a later date, could be a couple of years later. There is a possibility that everyone could forget about it but I would prefer to try to have a calm discussion about these things out in the open in advance and then not have to worry about it again.

I should also mention that on two occasions in the past my girlfriend asked me to send her a couple of thousand Baht for specific purposes. Both times I said no for practical reasons and we discussed why at the time in detail. I'm a bit concerned that she might think that I'm stingy.

Despite my entrenched position, I welcome any insight or perspective shifting views that anyone might be able to offer.

[a2396]

I don't understand all this stuff about Thai men not being interested in Thai women who have already been married and have kids, I see lots of Thai women with kids who have relationships with new Thai men.

I do agree that no sinsod should be the order of the day in this case but a returnable stack of baht on display for some face all round.

With the girlfriend not sticking up for the OP it does suggest there might be a Thai man in the background expecting to have his share of the goodies, either the father of the kids or a new Thai boyfriend. In fact, I don't understand why the girlfriend wasn't looking after him when he initially visited the mother - I mean did he actually look in the house to check if there was a Thai boyfriend inside. Stranger things have happened.

Yes, they have "relationships" with the Thai man, but he is very unlikely to marry the woman wiht children, certainly not legally and certainly not pay sin sod. Impossible. This is only for sucker Farangs.

[kikoman]

You are the source of your own problem, you created it by giving 20,000 a month to the mother, now she figures she can make a financial killing off of you. I know that you will not remedy the situation by cutting your losses and running, but paying sin sot for a woman that already has two children is out of the question?

I would give your wife an option, she take care of the children at your home city, and stop the mothers income, if you want to be generous give her 2,000 baht per month. do not get married now see how your arrangement works out before proceeding to your next step.

I did not pay one satang for sin sot and it was never asked for. you are taking over the responsibility of the woman and her two children and are thinking about paying for that right.

I have another question for you, what did your wife do when her mother treated you that way, making you sit out side with no water, if your answer is "not a thing" you are wasting your time and will lose a lot of money in the process.

Cut your losses and leave, your GF also if she will not go with you.

Good Luck, you will need it.

Cheers:

[Briggsy]

What did you do for 7 hours? Lurk outside? I am fairly easy-going but I would have simply left or more likely entered the house after 30 minutes.

[Loz]

I'm going to a wedding this weekend. Farang rak thai, thai rak farang. Wedding is at the parents home, christian ceremony. No nonsense. The Wedding is in the Isaan region but a city, not a village. Father of the bride is a retired Lt General. So not really, a rice farmer's girl. All negotiated like grown ups. The guy is the meekest fellow I know but he knew enough about what he could live with to make a stand when it counted. And it seems her family knew he was a good enough guy to be worth a little compromise. If there is a lesson in this for anyone then I am happy I shared it.

[Abrak]

Personally I am rather surprised that people are so impoverished that their relationship with their girlfriend isnt even worth Bt200k.

[Loz]

Personally, I am saddened that so many people are morally bankrupt enough to think a "store bought" partner constitutes a relationship.

Different strokes for different folks, eh?