Friend Dilemma

[longballlarry]

I have known an expat here for 6 years. He has been here for 7. During that time of 2500 or so days , I have only known him sober when he's sick. He is only 33yrs old, doesn't work, and has enough money not to. He has no friends from his country of origin, and his family have pretty much disowned him. He constantly lets people down when something is arranged (eg; morning golf - and too many other examples to mention) , and is becoming louder and more intolerable when in social circles. He also abuses just about every other substance he can get his hands on , and I think it wont be long before he's found dead somewhere in Bangkok. When he's drunk, he regularly breaks down and starts crying about his life in general, and has recently started suffering from fits and seizures, which is even more worrying as he is still driving and refusing to admit to it being a problem.

Many people have tried to talk to him, but this generally falls on deaf ears.

Any advice ?

Thanks.

ps; ( hope you're reading mate )

[rixalex]

The unkind but honest answer i would give is let it be known that until he gets his shit together, you will be keeping your distance. He's an adult and has to take responsibility for his own problems.

The time to help is when he starts doing something about his problem. Not now.

Call me heartless but unless we are talking about a family member or a best friend from way back when, life is complicated enough without taking on board other people's messed-up lives.

[longballlarry]

The unkind but honest answer i would give is let it be known that until he gets his shit together, you will be keeping your distance. He's an adult and has to take responsibility for his own problems.

The time to help is when he starts doing something about his problem. Not now.

Call me heartless but unless we are talking about a family member or a best friend from way back when, life is complicated enough without taking on board other people's messed-up lives.

Harsh but true. Its a shame but also no surprise that his friends are almost non existent. I just thought if there were was any constructive advice, I could forward this link to him after a week or so.

You are right in what you say though.

[SeanMoran]

Harsh but true. Its a shame but also no surprise that his friends are almost non existent. I just thought if there were was any constructive advice, I could forward this link to him after a week or so.

You are right in what you say though.

It's probably fairly common knowledge around here by my drunken rants that I have become a rather serious alcoholic, not just since arriving back in Thailand, but over the past few years, and I've just finished my first can of Chang for the day, because it's now been afternoon in Perth for an hour and breaking the yard-arm rule that way helps to get over the hangover from last night a little sooner than if I'd stuck to the Oishi for for another hour.

One similarity I believe I might share with your friend is the spare time, day in day out, with nothing to do in the way of work, nowhere to go, nowhere to be, so everyday is a boozing day. It's not much advice, but if he can find some way to remain occupied constructively throughout the afternoon, it might help to postpone the start of drinking time until later in the evening, and partly reduce the daily intake of alcohol.

Having a good reason to go to bed early is another way to reduce the drinking time.

<ed: typo>

Edited February 19, 2010 by SeanMoran

[mizzi39]

The unkind but honest answer i would give is let it be known that until he gets his shit together, you will be keeping your distance. He's an adult and has to take responsibility for his own problems.

The time to help is when he starts doing something about his problem. Not now.

Call me heartless but unless we are talking about a family member or a best friend from way back when, life is complicated enough without taking on board other people's messed-up lives.

I have to agree here, and no what you are saying is far from heartless.

OP, by sticking around and watching your friend slowly self destruct, you become an emotional co-dependent. There is a chance that your friend might never get his shit together, but at least if you distance yourself from him for a while it may give him an incentive to finally look at what he is doing to himself, and the people around him.

Chok dee.

[britmaveric]

Needs to hit bottom and realize he has a problem. Not a lot you can do I am afraid.

[koto]

Needs to hit bottom and realize he has a problem. Not a lot you can do I am afraid.

To sit around and allow this lost soul to maybe kill someone when driving, is not what one does, if you care about him or the others that he could hurt or kill, you do something about it, it is true that only he can stop, but educated help in this field could open the door, you say he drives, throw away his keys, talk to the police, or AA, it would be a shame that he hits his bottom after he kills someone, "you" see the problem, to walk away and let it be on your mind if stink hits the fan, and you could have done something to prevent it.

Sounds like he is asking for help in all the wrong places, maybe you should open some doors for him or get him removed from the streets, and put into a hospital, the ball is in your court, don't walk away, If he is your friend, or you care, don't dodge the bullet, your the one, He is unable to take control, I have lost 2 sons, to out of control drinking, I wish I had become more involved and helped them hit their bottom before they lost their lives, grab the bull by the horns and give it your best shot, also get some more advice before you go to his or who he killed funeral.

May the force be with you.

[chiang mai]

Harsh but true. Its a shame but also no surprise that his friends are almost non existent. I just thought if there were was any constructive advice, I could forward this link to him after a week or so.

You are right in what you say though.

It's probably fairly common knowledge around here by my drunken rants that I have become a rather serious alcoholic, not just since arriving back in Thailand, but over the past few years, and I've just finished my first can of Chang for the day, because it's now been afternoon in Perth for an hour and breaking the yard-arm rule that way helps to get over the hangover from last night a little sooner than if I'd stuck to the Oishi for for another hour.

One similarity I believe I might share with your friend is the spare time, day in day out, with nothing to do in the way of work, nowhere to go, nowhere to be, so everyday is a boozing day. It's not much advice, but if he can find some way to remain occupied constructively throughout the afternoon, it might help to postpone the start of drinking time until later in the evening, and partly reduce the daily intake of alcohol.

Having a good reason to go to bed early is another way to reduce the drinking time.

<ed: typo>

The question is Sean, what are you going to do about it - you're half way there in that you've recognised the problem so what's your next step? And don't say, have a beer and think about it!

[rixalex]

Needs to hit bottom and realize he has a problem. Not a lot you can do I am afraid.

To sit around and allow this lost soul to maybe kill someone when driving, is not what one does, if you care about him or the others that he could hurt or kill, you do something about it, it is true that only he can stop, but educated help in this field could open the door, you say he drives, throw away his keys, talk to the police, or AA, it would be a shame that he hits his bottom after he kills someone, "you" see the problem, to walk away and let it be on your mind if stink hits the fan, and you could have done something to prevent it.

Sounds like he is asking for help in all the wrong places, maybe you should open some doors for him or get him removed from the streets, and put into a hospital, the ball is in your court, don't walk away, If he is your friend, or you care, don't dodge the bullet, your the one, He is unable to take control, I have lost 2 sons, to out of control drinking, I wish I had become more involved and helped them hit their bottom before they lost their lives, grab the bull by the horns and give it your best shot, also get some more advice before you go to his or who he killed funeral.

May the force be with you.

Sorry to hear about your sons.

I disagree however that it's somehow the OPs responsibility to get involved - or that should something happen, the OP will be in some way to blame.

Of course if the OP has the time and energy to take his mate's problem on, all well and good. Most of us in that situation don't though. We have our own lives and our own issues to deal with, and shouldn't feel in the slightest bit guilty for concentrating on that.

If you want to save someone, you're better off choosing someone who wants to be saved - there are plenty of those people about.

[SeanMoran]

The question is Sean, what are you going to do about it - you're half way there in that you've recognised the problem so what's your next step? And don't say, have a beer and think about it!

Apart from the activities I suggested for the subject of this thread, in keeping busy in the afternoons and getting to sleep fairly early in the evenings, the only other suggestion I have is to find a reliable supply of a light beer, so that the daily consumption is reduced for the same volume of liquid. Chang Lite is not easy to find here where I live, but other places might have better supply.

[slapout]

The modern way of thinking/treatment seems to be that the individual must realize that they have a problem and want to find a alternate life style. Until this happens, involuntary confinement in rehab or depending on you and/or others, as friends, what you are willing to commit in time/money to help. First step is a complete physical/evaluation by a good doctor who deals with dependency on a regular basis. The doctor should be able to give you the options available here in Thailand. If local help is not possible, I would suggest someone notify his family that they can expect a death, arrest, or other, notice and pass on the doctor recommendation. If he has 3 or 4 friends they could take him out in the boondocks for a drying out period under constant surveillance, with the doctors consensus of course. Good luck in your quest for advice/help.

[SeanMoran]

The modern way of thinking/treatment seems to be that the individual must realize that they have a problem and want to find a alternate life style. Until this happens, involuntary confinement in rehab or depending on you and/or others, as friends, what you are willing to commit in time/money to help. First step is a complete physical/evaluation by a good doctor who deals with dependency on a regular basis. The doctor should be able to give you the options available here in Thailand. If local help is not possible, I would suggest someone notify his family that they can expect a death, arrest, or other, notice and pass on the doctor recommendation. If he has 3 or 4 friends they could take him out in the boondocks for a drying out period under constant surveillance, with the doctors consensus of course. Good luck in your quest for advice/help.

It's about the hours, not the days, understand?

While you're all going on about taking some innocent man's life away day by day, in your do-gooder authoritarian style that you can't help, the truth is that all he needs is something more worthwhile to look forward to for his days and his nights from one hour to the next, and I just hope that none of you ever end up as bored and hopeless as he and I feel, every bloody minute of every bloody hour of every bloody day of the week. Good night.

[gerryBScot]

I am reminded of the guy who went to see his doctor in an attempt to get some sympathy and some medication and walked away with a prescription with a phone number on it. The doctor simply said :"Phone these people". It was the number for AA and the rest I understand is history barring some initial reticence about being an alcoholic. You are stuck between the extremes of doing nothing and doing something and some of the potential consequnces and merits of both approaches are set out. Why don't you take him to an AA meeting, don't ask permission, don't tell him, just tell him : "We're going out and all I ask is that you come with me"; take him to the meeting and tell him the choice is now his and tell him to give AA an hour of his life........just a suggestion. Good luck

[RPETER65]

The modern way of thinking/treatment seems to be that the individual must realize that they have a problem and want to find a alternate life style. Until this happens, involuntary confinement in rehab or depending on you and/or others, as friends, what you are willing to commit in time/money to help. First step is a complete physical/evaluation by a good doctor who deals with dependency on a regular basis. The doctor should be able to give you the options available here in Thailand. If local help is not possible, I would suggest someone notify his family that they can expect a death, arrest, or other, notice and pass on the doctor recommendation. If he has 3 or 4 friends they could take him out in the boondocks for a drying out period under constant surveillance, with the doctors consensus of course. Good luck in your quest for advice/help.

It's about the hours, not the days, understand?

While you're all going on about taking some innocent man's life away day by day, in your do-gooder authoritarian style that you can't help, the truth is that all he needs is something more worthwhile to look forward to for his days and his nights from one hour to the next, and I just hope that none of you ever end up as bored and hopeless as he and I feel, every bloody minute of every bloody hour of every bloody day of the week. Good night.

Why do you choose to live this way, life can be to interesting don't let it pass by being bored and hopeless, get out there and live, if your not happy where you are make some changes what's holding you back.

[slapout]

I do not profess to be a do-gooder/authority on this subject nor the op's request for advice. I sure would not wish the lifestyle described on anyone else for sure. Humans as social animals, handle and approach similar circumstances with different approaches. Exposure to circumstances which may lead to chemical dependency are a fact of life, based on the numbers bandied around. If anyone had a total handle on the underlying cause and treatment of the affliction many of the worlds social problems would be eliminated.

I do feel that the individual must want to change his/her life style, admit their short comings and not whinge and point blame at others nor circumstances. I was told by a knowledgeable fellow 50 +years ago that boredom is a teenagers excuse for laziness. Having never felt hopeless for a long term, (a few girls reinforced this) on life overall I would not even hazard a solution.

Life, living, and people can be educational, entertaining , unpredictable, and even positivity enjoyable for those who approach it with an open mind. The alternate way of thinking often leads to a situation as described by the op.

[StreetCowboy]

I do not profess to be a do-gooder/authority on this subject nor the op's request for advice. I sure would not wish the lifestyle described on anyone else for sure. Humans as social animals, handle and approach similar circumstances with different approaches. Exposure to circumstances which may lead to chemical dependency are a fact of life, based on the numbers bandied around. If anyone had a total handle on the underlying cause and treatment of the affliction many of the worlds social problems would be eliminated.

I do feel that the individual must want to change his/her life style, admit their short comings and not whinge and point blame at others nor circumstances. I was told by a knowledgeable fellow 50 +years ago that boredom is a teenagers excuse for laziness. Having never felt hopeless for a long term, (a few girls reinforced this) on life overall I would not even hazard a solution.

Life, living, and people can be educational, entertaining , unpredictable, and even positivity enjoyable for those who approach it with an open mind. The alternate way of thinking often leads to a situation as described by the op.

BE MORE INTERESTING!

BE MORE MOTIVATED!

STOP BEING BORED!

It doesn't work, does it?

There's nothing as depressing as reading self-help books, or being told how great life is if you're not depressed.

I'll tell you what works for me when I find out...

But my "weapon of last resort" is a quick right hand - volunteer for anything, no matter how daft or unappealing it sounds; take on more than I can do...even if it cuts into drinking time...

SC

[NADTATIDA1]

http://www.aathailand.org/regbkk.html

"A friend in need is a friend indeed" comes to mind,good on yer for taking the time to try and help him.

[chiang mai]

The modern way of thinking/treatment seems to be that the individual must realize that they have a problem and want to find a alternate life style. Until this happens, involuntary confinement in rehab or depending on you and/or others, as friends, what you are willing to commit in time/money to help. First step is a complete physical/evaluation by a good doctor who deals with dependency on a regular basis. The doctor should be able to give you the options available here in Thailand. If local help is not possible, I would suggest someone notify his family that they can expect a death, arrest, or other, notice and pass on the doctor recommendation. If he has 3 or 4 friends they could take him out in the boondocks for a drying out period under constant surveillance, with the doctors consensus of course. Good luck in your quest for advice/help.

It's about the hours, not the days, understand?

While you're all going on about taking some innocent man's life away day by day, in your do-gooder authoritarian style that you can't help, the truth is that all he needs is something more worthwhile to look forward to for his days and his nights from one hour to the next, and I just hope that none of you ever end up as bored and hopeless as he and I feel, every bloody minute of every bloody hour of every bloody day of the week. Good night.

Try this one for size:

I think the problem stems from the old Type A or B personality issue, read this for a quick explanation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_A_and_Ty...sonality_theory. I used to think it was all a load of nonsense but since I've been in Thailand and had more time (often too much time) on my hands I have come to agree with the concept. Once you take a Type A person out of their work environment and put them into somewhere relaxing like Thailand, they are completely lost and it is a serious problem, Type A's simply should never stop work, end of story.The trouble with discussing this kind of problem is that Type B people try and give and advice to Type A people when they really can't even begin to understand the problem because they're of a different type entirely. Type B's on the other hand are a natural fit into a place such as Thailand, perfectly at home and all very natural.

[dmax]

i would help the poor guy.

[Sheryl]

It is certainly true that you can't help people unless they are willing to accept help.

Between simply walkiung away and trying to get this person to do XYZ there is a middle option:

Gather a set of resource information - lists of AA meetings (free), residential treatment programs (various types, not free), counselling (also different types, not free ut some places have sliding scale fees). Between what is on this thread and the pinned mental health resource list in the Health forum, you should be able to put together a nice little kit. For AA, make it a detailed list i.e. exact times, locations of meetings, contact numbers, website.

Then sit him down and tell him that you are deeply concerned and believe he has a problem which is doing him harm and likely to do him even more harm in the future. If possible, have some other people he knows join you. Be sure to convey compassion and concern.

Then the rest of it is up to him. If he avails of any of these resources, support him to the max.

If he does not, distance yourself but make it clear to him that you'll be there when and if he decides to take action.

This way you meet your moral obligation, do what it is possible to do, but do not get embroiled into something that is beyond your control.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

It is certainly true that you can't help people unless they are willing to accept help.

Between simply walkiung away and trying to get this person to do XYZ there is a middle option:

Gather a set of resource information - lists of AA meetings (free), residential treatment programs (various types, not free), counselling (also different types, not free ut some places have sliding scale fees). Between what is on this thread and the pinned mental health resource list in the Health forum, you should be able to put together a nice little kit. For AA, make it a detailed list i.e. exact times, locations of meetings, contact numbers, website.

Then sit him down and tell him that you are deeply concerned and believe he has a problem which is doing him harm and likely to do him even more harm in the future. If possible, have some other people he knows join you. Be sure to convey compassion and concern.

Then the rest of it is up to him. If he avails of any of these resources, support him to the max.

If he does not, distance yourself but make it clear to him that you'll be there when and if he decides to take action.

This way you meet your moral obligation, do what it is possible to do, but do not get embroiled into something that is beyond your control.

[ding]

britmaverick is likely right. Only he can pronounce himself an alcoholic to himself. He'll blow off any diagnosis by others... If he is alcoholic.

But all are worth a talking to, if only a goodbye. I'd let him know you think he has a problem and aren't going to watch it or deal with it. He needs family to do an intervention, so if he's alcoholic he's probably going to die from it.

On the other hand. AA is free and seldom do people fail if they thoroughly follow that path. There's a way out, it's free, it works. Might plant that seed too, it may sprout when the pain gets bad enough.

AA THAILAND

[StreetCowboy]

8>< SNIP ><8 NESTED QUOTES DELETED

It's about the hours, not the days, understand?

While you're all going on about taking some innocent man's life away day by day, in your do-gooder authoritarian style that you can't help, the truth is that all he needs is something more worthwhile to look forward to for his days and his nights from one hour to the next, and I just hope that none of you ever end up as bored and hopeless as he and I feel, every bloody minute of every bloody hour of every bloody day of the week. Good night.

I can't comment on the hopelessness, but I remember when I first moved to my current home (outwith Thailand, I thought that there was eff-all to do but drink; I stand by that judgement, and I remember the misery of weekend days, waiting till I could reasonably go to the pub without running the risk of being paralytic in the mid-evening. I used to try and spend a couple of hours writing long letters to a friend who was in a still-more restricted and tedious environment, but I'm not sure how much of a cheer-up they provided. Now, though, I've started to appreciate the scenery, the weather, the food - all the stuff that was there all the time, but I just never took any notice of. But its really hard to do that on your own, I think, and also probably difficult to do drunk or half-drunk. Anyway, I miss Thailand, so I'd be interested to hear about your neck of the woods... how does it compare with the banks and braes of your home country? My family were broken-hearted that they missed the snow this year...

SC

[bartender100]

'Twas an evening in October, I'll confess I wasn't sober,

I was carting home a load with manly pride,

When my feet began to stutter and I fell into the gutter,

And a pig came up and lay down by my side.

Then I lay there in the gutter and my heart was all a-flutter,

Till a lady, passing by, did chance to say:

"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses,"

Then the pig got up and slowly walked away.

Just seemed appropriate for this thread

http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiPIGINEB4.html

Edited February 27, 2010 by bartender100

[jdinasia]

It is certainly true that you can't help people unless they are willing to accept help.

Between simply walkiung away and trying to get this person to do XYZ there is a middle option:

Gather a set of resource information - lists of AA meetings (free), residential treatment programs (various types, not free), counselling (also different types, not free ut some places have sliding scale fees). Between what is on this thread and the pinned mental health resource list in the Health forum, you should be able to put together a nice little kit. For AA, make it a detailed list i.e. exact times, locations of meetings, contact numbers, website.

Then sit him down and tell him that you are deeply concerned and believe he has a problem which is doing him harm and likely to do him even more harm in the future. If possible, have some other people he knows join you. Be sure to convey compassion and concern.

Then the rest of it is up to him. If he avails of any of these resources, support him to the max.

If he does not, distance yourself but make it clear to him that you'll be there when and if he decides to take action.

This way you meet your moral obligation, do what it is possible to do, but do not get embroiled into something that is beyond your control.

I almost agree with this post.

It is possible to help people that are not wanting help, however, it is difficult and usually not worth the time unless you have a "hammer" to do it with.

Interventions can work but they are emotionally painful and draining and have limited success. You need to be a close friend, family, employer etc and be willing to lay down real consequences for continued negative behavior. It really isn't worth it unless you truly value the relationship.

Regarding the concept of a drunk managing controlled drinking with no treatment --- There is an old saying...

"It isn't the caboose of a train that kills you." Meaning that people that by nature that cannot control their drinking should realize that it is the FIRST drink of the day that is the problem, not the drink that pushes them over to "drunk" at the moment.

[grumpyoldman]

that the individual must realize that they have a problem and want to find an alternate life style.

nail on the head,spot on, whatever the cliche, this is it.

[rufanuf]

It's about the hours, not the days, understand?

While you're all going on about taking some innocent man's life away day by day, in your do-gooder authoritarian style that you can't help, the truth is that all he needs is something more worthwhile to look forward to for his days and his nights from one hour to the next, and I just hope that none of you ever end up as bored and hopeless as he and I feel, every bloody minute of every bloody hour of every bloody day of the week. Good night.

The perfect example of an alcoholics mindset and why you cant do anything for them. The substance isn't the problem, there general attitude to life is.

[rufanuf]

that the individual must realize that they have a problem and want to find an alternate life style.

nail on the head,spot on, whatever the cliche, this is it.

Thats the problem though isn't it? They dont want to find another lifestyle, as much as they profess that they do. They certainly are not going to listen to anyone else. The most boring people alive are those that say "they are bored" I am so glad that I learnt that lesson young, and realiased that in that void moment in my head that had no thought, sense of purpose or direction...rather than say I was bored I could fill it with what I liked.

I use to wind my brother up endlessly tapping a poker on the half of the fireplace, my brother would end up trying to throttle me as it would really annoy him. My mum would come into the livingroom, and tell me to stop, and i would whinge that I was bored, "there was nothing to do" etc etc...her answer "go and find something more constructive to do!" And I did....I take that little lesson in life with me wherever I go. There are so many things in life that are not boring if you simply apply yourself and like seeing the results you get, good or bad!

The most boring thing I have tried to do, is help ungrateful people who don't want to help themselves...alcoholics and addicts. Is that a little blunter than what they preach in the self help books? Good. It's a thankless waste of time, so my message would be clear, get over your self indulgences, whether it be having a beer or winding up your brother, and start doing something more constructive with your time, but of course its entirely up to you isn't it? Live the consequences of either set of beliefs, the choice is clearly yours to make, but the last time I observed liquids had no free will, humans did, I never saw a beer bottle climb off a supermarket shelf, stroll down the street to my apartment, decap itself and force its contents down my throat! But I have seen humans force themsleves down the supermarket, stop at the bar enroute and force as many beers as they can down their throat! Thats why they call it abuse, the abuser is abusing this poor helpless innate substance. Its not the other way around, the bottle isnt creeping into your room at night and smashing itself over your head!

Edited November 3, 2010 by rufanuf

[zzdocxx]

All I can think of at the moment is to see if you can find an Al-Anon group, or even an online meeting. It is for families and friends of alcoholics, they generally have a similar dilemma to yours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anon/Alateen

http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/english.html

They have many decades of experience in facing this problem.

Good luck to you and your friend.

[needforspeed]

It is certainly true that you can't help people unless they are willing to accept help.

Between simply walkiung away and trying to get this person to do XYZ there is a middle option:

Gather a set of resource information - lists of AA meetings (free), residential treatment programs (various types, not free), counselling (also different types, not free ut some places have sliding scale fees). Between what is on this thread and the pinned mental health resource list in the Health forum, you should be able to put together a nice little kit. For AA, make it a detailed list i.e. exact times, locations of meetings, contact numbers, website.

Then sit him down and tell him that you are deeply concerned and believe he has a problem which is doing him harm and likely to do him even more harm in the future. If possible, have some other people he knows join you. Be sure to convey compassion and concern.

Then the rest of it is up to him. If he avails of any of these resources, support him to the max.

If he does not, distance yourself but make it clear to him that you'll be there when and if he decides to take action.

This way you meet your moral obligation, do what it is possible to do, but do not get embroiled into something that is beyond your control.

Did that, told a friend i'll be there when he decides to take action, helped him before day and night after a while he start called me 4 times a week that he was ready to change (crying as a kid) when he got pissed, after 8 weeks calling me between 02:00 and 05:00 and yelling that i was a liar he started calling my GF that i did not want to help him, i wen to see him at 08:00 in the morning and make myself clear not to call me or my GF anymore and sort his problem out by himself.

He kept his promise never called again.

He is still walking around, only say hello to me. He asked me last month to borrow money as he had some issues with his job. I explained that i did not borrow any money to people instead i handover 4 k to him as a gift and told him to get profesional help. He just walked away.

Later ive been told that he was using drugs as well, very sad for him and for me as i lost a good friend.

NFS