Salary/wage Cuts...any Experiences?

[BruceMangosteen]

Most teachers have an employment contract.

It, in English(as well as Thai I assume in the Thai copy) specifies certan penalties for excessive sick/leave days.

However, I've never read of these actually being enforced.

Anyone have experiences with their wage actually being cut for not signing in, continued tardy or laying out of work etc.?

Thanks

[Scott]

Where I work, they are enforced. I wouldn't exactly call them penalties, but overall this is what is done:

1. Deduction of 50 baht for every 15 minutes an employee is late.

2. Deduction of a days pay, for unexcused absences/sick leave. The total number of sick days per year, for us is 10 days. The sick leave is accrued at the rate of about 1 day per month, with deductions being made during probation for any absence. You do not get sick leave during the probation period, which is 3 months. At the end of the 3 months you have 3 days.

All of this is at the discretion of the director of the school, who is more lenient with longer-term employees and more pedantic with newer ones. The director is understanding of people who have been in accidents or are hospitalized as well. People who misuse it get the full brunt of penalties.

The annual increase, in part, is based on attendance and employees who have used less than 4 days, I think, get paid fur the unused portion.

Deductions are routinely made for employees who do not appear after a holiday, such as Christmas, the October break or are late returning in May.

[mizzi39]

Yes, it is enforced at our school too. The teachers in our program get 10 days sick leave a year. If a sick day is taken the teacher is responsible for filling out a "leave form" in order to be compensated. If form is not filled out the teacher is logged in as being 'absent without pay".

[otherstuff1957]

I know that a teacher who was seriously ill a couple of years ago ran out of sick leave and wasn't getting paid while he was out sick (though the school did lend him the money to pay his hospital bills). Aside from that, I haven't heard any complaints from a teacher who is frequently late & rarely attends morning assembly. So, pay penalties seem to be enforced selectively!

At a previous school a teacher, who was absent almost every Monday for two or three months, complained that he had been docked 10,000 baht! The next month he and the school mutually agreed to part ways.

[Neeranam]

Most teachers have an employment contract.

It, in English(as well as Thai I assume in the Thai copy) specifies certan penalties for excessive sick/leave days.

However, I've never read of these actually being enforced.

Anyone have experiences with their wage actually being cut for not signing in, continued tardy or laying out of work etc.?

Thanks

Never - no way I'd work for anyone that did that. Fired, fair enough but to treat you like a student, come on.

[BruceMangosteen]

Never - no way I'd work for anyone that did that. Fired, fair enough but to treat you like a student, come on.

I said have wages cut, not whipped with a bamboo stick like students are. Whipping as a form of "punishment" or "motivation" still goes on in many Thai schools. That is how students with these "habits" are dealt with. I'm asking about foreign teachers.

[thunder30101]

Without said penalties there are too many teachers here that I have met that would be more than happy to never come to work or be late on a regular basis. And if they just fired you, how fast would you be taking them to court for unjust dismissal ???

[Scott]

Schools and hospitals don't tend to run very well without staff. There is a special care component to both of these, unlike a government office or retail store. Schools just can't function without this care and supervision portion of things. This means staff must be present. I know where I work the question always is, is he late or is he absent? Hard to plan a day based on that. Here's some of my favorite excuses:

--I lost your number; I lost my phone; I thought I sent you an SMS, but it must not have gone through.

--I told my friend call, didn't she/he?

--I was too sick to call in. ETC. ETC.

Meanwhile, should I completely disrupt someone else's schedule.

[mssabai]

Oooh, I used to work for a particularly charming individual (an agent), who would insist on docking our money, even though the school didn't dock his! The school were fine about sick days, and in the end if we were sick, the school just made sure he never heard of it. It struck me as the most ridiculous and unfair policy. He is well known for being a a-hole though and eventually the school and him parted ways. If anyone has ever worked in Surat Thani, they will know he is!

My school now is fantastic about sick days. We do have to have a doctors note if we are off for more than 2 days I think, but they are never suspicious about them...usually just genuinely concerned!

[PeaceBlondie]

Never missed a class in two years. I covered classes for sick or misbehaving Thais who were younger than me.

[Scott]

In spite of my somewhat negative attitude, I have found that overall, most people take their work fairly seriously and abuse of leave time is pretty limited. My experience is that it is a very small number of people who spoil it for the vast majority of responsible people. I must admit that my boss is usually pretty good; she is usually careful to cut those that have significantly abused the leave policy and where it is reasonably verifiable.

I've got a number of humorous stories about those that got caught and how!

[elkangorito]

The next time I sign a labour contract with a new Thai employer, it will be according to what I consider to be "fair practice". I consider this to be my "wish list" as I have not bothered to check whether it contravenes Thai Labour Law or not.

I suggest that acceptable (fair) "penalties" be similar to that of certain western countries, as below;

1] 3 continuous days off work, without notifying the employer, shall be deemed as "abandonment of work" & the employer has the right to terminate without notice. Any owing holiday pay or other entitlements shall be paid by the employer.

2] The employee's pay shall be calculated on an hourly basis. The employee shall work the minimum number of hours per week according to Thai Labour Law. If an employee works longer than the weekly minimum, overtime is applicable at rates according to Thai Labour Law.

3] If the employee fails to arrive at work by the designated starting time, by more than 15 minutes but by no more than 1 hour, the employee shall be docked the equivalent of 1 hour of pay, according to the hourly rate. The same shall apply for subsequent hours on the same day. No further penalties or restrictions shall apply.

4] The employee is allowed to have no more than one day per year off work without a sick certificate, for which the employee shall be paid.

5] If an employee uses all their allocated sick days, the employees pay may only be reduced at the same rate as the hourly rate. For example, if an employee has an extra 5 days off work due to legitimate illness, the employee's wage can be deducted by no more than the rate of 5 working days, at the hourly rate upon which they were employed.

6] An employee shall not be summarily dismissed for having a legitimate illness exceeding the number of allocated sick days unless such an illness exceeds 6 months in length. In such a case & if the employee is terminated, all entitlements (including severance pay) shall be paid to the employee.

Employers who treat people like children, get children for employees. If Thai employers were really serious about business, they would want to be fair & equitable from the onset. Very soon now, Thailand may be on a "verge"...the verge being, "What do we do about teaching English in this country?"

The answer is simple (much as I hate to say it)...employ people who ONLY have legitimate teaching qualifications i.e. a B.E. or a Dip. Ed. Of course, payment & conditions need to be such that appropriate teachers are attracted to such positions. Not forgetting that corruption is rife everywhere in Thailand & "back-handers" in this system are not uncommon.

Is there some sort of Foreign Teachers Union in Thailand?

This is just a start & as I said, it is my "wish list". It may never happen...but I hope it does.

[haltes]

3] If the employee fails to arrive at work by the designated starting time, by more than 15 minutes but by no more than 1 hour, the employee shall be docked the equivalent of 1 hour of pay, according to the hourly rate. The same shall apply for subsequent hours on the same day. No further penalties or restrictions shall apply.

This is a bad rule, might as well be 59 minutes late than 16 minutes late.

[Loaded]

At a previous school a teacher, who was absent almost every Monday for two or three months, complained that he had been docked 10,000 baht! The next month he and the school mutually agreed to part ways.

Monday club teachers should be deported

[Scott]

Yes, they certainly make it difficult for those of us who don't belong to the club!

[TerryLH]

"The employee's pay shall be calculated on an hourly basis. The employee shall work the minimum number of hours per week according to Thai Labour Law. If an employee works longer than the weekly minimum, overtime is applicable at rates according to Thai Labour Law."

And if they work less?

[toptuan]

Never missed a class in two years. I covered classes for sick or misbehaving Thais who were younger than me.

Likewise, never missed a class in seven years. Was only late once when my boss held me up to talk to me.

However, almost every month I have students of Thai teachers come up to me, "Ajarn, what should we do? Out teacher hasn't showed up yet. It's been a half hour. We were supposed to have a test (lecture, project, etc.)."

While most young Thai teachers in our area "toe the line," many middle-aged to older Thai teachers who skip class don't even bother to notify the students ahead of time, nor explain their absence after the fact. When it comes to questioning their attendance or punctuality, they are the "untouchables." One professor here, for two solid years before his retirement, and for all his classes, met his students once at the beginning of the term, told them to read the textbook, then showed up the last day of the term to give them the final exam. Because he was tenured "senior Thai staff" he was likewise considered untouchable.

Yup, some teachers get away with "murder" of the educational system and the principle of teachers modeling good habits and ethics. Be glad that some of your schools uphold a standard and students get what they (or the taxpayers) pay for.

Edited February 27, 2010 by toptuan

[PeaceBlondie]

Never missed a class in two years. I covered classes for sick or misbehaving Thais who were younger than me.

Likewise, never missed a class in seven years. Was only late once when my boss held me up to talk to me.

However, almost every month I have students of Thai teachers come up to me, "Ajarn, what should we do? Out teacher hasn't showed up yet. It's been a half hour. We were supposed to have a test (lecture, project, etc.)."

While most young Thai teachers in our area "toe the line," many middle-aged to older Thai teachers who skip class don't even bother to notify the students ahead of time, nor explain their absence after the fact. When it comes to questioning their attendance or punctuality, they are the "untouchables." One professor here, for two solid years before his retirement, and for all his classes, met his students once at the beginning of the term, told them to read the textbook, then showed up the last day of the term to give them the final exam. Because he was tenured "senior Thai staff" he was likewise considered untouchable.

Yup, some teachers get away with "murder" of the educational system and the principle of teachers modeling good habits and ethics. Be glad that some of your schools uphold a standard and students get what they (or the taxpayers) pay for.

Most of our ajarns were responsible. The one who slapped her ex-husband (a fellow ajarn) was reassigned. The sweet middle-aged lady was too sick. My point was that the very Thai ajarns who dared to compare me - a Texan with a BA degree in Christianity - to them would find me better professionally, if they were honest.

[elkangorito]

"The employee's pay shall be calculated on an hourly basis. The employee shall work the minimum number of hours per week according to Thai Labour Law. If an employee works longer than the weekly minimum, overtime is applicable at rates according to Thai Labour Law."

And if they work less?

If they work less, they are paid according to the hours worked.

Then again, I have been a "salary" earner & a "wage" earner. The salary worker generally is paid by "completion of work". If work is not completed, you gain a black mark.

A wage earner is paid by the hour, which in my opinion, is a much fairer way to be paid.

[Scott]

Teachers are generally considered as professionals and as such the contractual arrangement is not the same as for hourly employees such as factory workers. There are times of the year when a teacher may have to put in more hours than at other times of the year. There is preparation time, exam writing, grading as well as professional development, research on topics and special projects.

There are times of the year that are relatively relaxed and if you have taught the same course for a few years, it can be relatively easy, time wise.

[10027586]

Frankly, someone who acts like a student should be treated like one.

[10027586]

Btw my school does dock pay for those who take the proverbial. If they continue to do so then it's often easier to just let them go. It's bloody inconvenient for the rest of us who come in every day come hel_l or high water when you have the hangover club.

[BruceMangosteen]

Frankly, someone who acts like a student should be treated like one.

You mean whipped in public with a bamboo stick, often a big bamboo stick and much more than a tap in the butt?

[culicine]

Teachers are generally considered as professionals and as such the contractual arrangement is not the same as for hourly employees such as factory workers. There are times of the year when a teacher may have to put in more hours than at other times of the year. There is preparation time, exam writing, grading as well as professional development, research on topics and special projects.

There are times of the year that are relatively relaxed and if you have taught the same course for a few years, it can be relatively easy, time wise.

This is why I totally disagree with clocking in and clocking out at school. This was implemented due to a perceived lack of professionalism among teachers (read: lateness). Being late results in docked pay also. We were also told by the head that if we have to work outside of school hours, we are inefficient!! I gave the head a mouthful for that comment. First and foremost, being on time is considered being professional. Yet nothing is done regarding some of the horrendous teaching that goes on in class time. Now I largely restrict school work to my clocked in work time. That's what they want so thats what they get.

[ThaiRich]

At my school. If I need a personal day off to attended to business that can not be taken care of in the evening or on the weekend. I request it 2 days in advance no deduction in pay and not limited. When I am sick not important 2 days or 5 days. If I have someone take me to see a doctor and the doctor says I should stay home, again no deduction in pay. On the rare occassion I am late no deduction in pay, as I am very often early and doing extra things around the school. Oh yes, I nearly forgot. As long as I am prepared for my classes. No one cares where I am during my non classroom hours. I often go home when I have 2 periods between classes or on Fridays afternoon when there are Thai events (non English related) I usually go home after my last class in the morning. Of course, all of these things were discussed and agreed to before I started working for my school. Before you start working is the time to discuss these things. If you try to discuss these things AFTER you accept the job you really don't leave yourself any bargining position. At my school I am classified as a "foreign language teacher" (not "teacher") so I am excused from all activites that are not "foreign language" related. Again agreed to before accepting position to teach at school.

Edited March 4, 2010 by ThaiRich