New campaign to use both 'Siam' and 'Thailand'

[sabaijai]

Johpa you'll find similar conditions in virtually every country in South and Southeast Asia. (Aside: The history of most governance worldwide, in fact, can be charaterised as the transference of power from one elite to another.)

Just remembered that a change from Thailand back to Siam came up during the drafting of a new constitution in 1961. The constitutional drafting assembly came out overwhelmingly in favour of Thailand over Siam, 134 to 5. Of course the assembly was no doubt packed with military at that time.

[waldwolf]

Based on the posts I have read, I have the impression most oppose any name change, however............... from the poll figures, the "Silent Majority" (by almost a 2:1 margin) do want a name change.

Most interesting. Food for thought.

[mnoorsapl]

  In the fifties FM Pibun (sometimes misspelled Pibul) reinvented.....

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A small, slightly off topic comment. I think that Pibul's name in Thai ends in the letter lahw....which is roughly equivalent to the English letter 'L' in pronunciation except when it comes at the end of a word where it is pronounced roughly like the letter 'N'. So his name would be pronounced 'Pibun', but the accepted Thai way to transliterate (not sure if this is the right word) from Thai script to English letters is to keep the lahw on the end as and English 'L'. In learning to pronounce Thai words when reading from English letters you should learn that there is never an 'L' sound on the end of a word and the letter 'L' found at the end is pronounced as an 'N'.

Another example of this kind of transliteration is the Prime Ministers family name. It is spelled Shinawatra or something like that but the final 'ra' is not pronounced. Reading his name aloud you would say 'shinawat'...more or less. If I'm wrong on this, someone out there please let me know as I'm always interested.

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Pronunciation of Siam could mean a different meaning, in other language or dialect. The youger generation would prefer "Thailand" over "Siam". Prounciation of "Thailand" too is incorrectly announced, in many major occassion. I prefer "Thailand".

[Humphrey Bear]

To me it is simple

Thailand will attract sex-tourists

Siam will attract culture vultures

Any politician or businessman dealing with foreign partners / potential partners would prefer to be seen as Siamese, with all the good thoughts that that provokes, rather than being thought a probable pimp.

[thaigene2]

She pointed out that many countries have more than one national name, such as the Netherlands and Holland; the United States and America; the Great Britain, the United Kingdom and England; Switzerland and Helvetia; Germany and Deutschland; and Japan and Nippon.

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Huh??

England and Scotland are two countries that make up Great Britain (with Wales as a principality). When combined with Northern Ireland, these territories makes up the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". So the country has one official name.

Germany, Switzerland and Japan are in English. The counterparts listed above are the names in their own languages (yes, I know, they don't always translate correctly).

The only one in the list that makes her point is Netherlands and Holland. How about "Thaijinland"?? Isn't that the way things are headed??

[mfindlay]

She pointed out that many countries have more than one national name, such as the Netherlands and Holland; the United States and America; the Great Britain, the United Kingdom and England; Switzerland and Helvetia; Germany and Deutschland; and Japan and Nippon.

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Huh??

England and Scotland are two countries that make up Great Britain (with Wales as a principality). When combined with Northern Ireland, these territories makes up the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". So the country has one official name.

Germany, Switzerland and Japan are in English. The counterparts listed above are the names in their own languages (yes, I know, they don't always translate correctly).

The only one in the list that makes her point is Netherlands and Holland. How about "Thaijinland"?? Isn't that the way things are headed??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Holland again is the English name the correct name is The Netherlands! America is a Continent and the United States of America are a country within that Continent, it would be like calling Thailand Aisa.

Personally I think Thailand should be dropped and Siam used you mention you are visiting Thailand and all you get is nods and winks as to why you are going!

[The Philosopher]

A name is only important if recognition is required.

Thaiam

Siamland

Sabailand - Thats the one for me

[patricktan]

Siam or Thailand is no driffrent to lot of people.

[hansnl43]

Holland again is the English name the correct name is The Netherlands! America is a Continent and the United States of America are a country within that Continent, it would be like calling Thailand Aisa.

The official name is The Netherlands, Holland is a part of The Netherlands (two provinces: North (Amsterdam) and South (The Hague and Rotterdam).

About 1600/1700 Holland was the important part and sailed all over the world (in China, Japan, the new world, now USA) and form that time Holland is known. Since 1830 The Netherlands exist in the current state.

[gburns57au]

"it actually means Free land or land of the free due to it never having been colonised by a foreign power."

The Chinese may have been some of the early settlers in the region, But China has never controlled Thailand since Thailand became a country in its own right.

And I suppose that is why Thailand, A Bhuddist country, banned the Dalai Lama from visiting. Wake up and smell the roses, Thailand is only a semi-independent most southern colony of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Academics have often descrobed Thailand as having been colonized from within by an elite that based the government model on colonialism and that continues to exploit the hinterland while removing profits elsewhere. While my neighbors in Thailand eat plaa tuu khem and drink lao khao the elite drive imported cars, drink imported booze, and transfer their profits out of the country.

You have your opinion......

I read books

[Sangsom]

She pointed out that many countries have more than one national name, such as the Netherlands and Holland;  etc.

This is incorrect. The name is only The Netherlands (de Nederlanden, the "low lands" (in French Pays-Bas). Holland refers only to the present provinces Noord- (North) and Zuid- (South) Holland that once formed the County of Holland. Now Holland is together with for example the Duchies of Gelre and Limburg just a part of the Netherlands. Not that it matters that much. Just to get the facts right.

Sangsom

[thaigold]

Thailand is recognized worldwide by its current name.

Here's my suggestion:

Thailand remains the internationally accepted name, but officially, it should be known as, "The Kingdom of Siam."

I think it is just historically and culturally more appropriate.

[thaigold]

A question might be asked why the Embassy of the Netherlands omits the term "Holland" from its shield and insignia on Wireless Road?

Many people refer the the citizens of The Netherlands as "Holland Dutch."

Are we in error?

[robenroute]

The way I read it, is that they want to use the name Siam (again) next to Thailand, like may other countries have 2 or even more names...

So, the poll is a little incorrect.

LaoPo

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I come from the Netherlands or Holland, and I'm a DUTCH

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Don't want to nitpick, but you're not A Dutch. You're Dutch, or perhaps a Dutch person. The word "Dutch" can be a noun used to refer to the Dutch people, but in those cases it would refer to the Dutch people as a whole.

Cheers, Rob

[Greer]

  In the fifties FM Pibun (sometimes misspelled Pibul) reinvented.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A small, slightly off topic comment. I think that Pibul's name in Thai ends in the letter lahw....which is roughly equivalent to the English letter 'L' in pronunciation except when it comes at the end of a word where it is pronounced roughly like the letter 'N'. So his name would be pronounced 'Pibun', but the accepted Thai way to transliterate (not sure if this is the right word) from Thai script to English letters is to keep the lahw on the end as and English 'L'. In learning to pronounce Thai words when reading from English letters you should learn that there is never an 'L' sound on the end of a word and the letter 'L' found at the end is pronounced as an 'N'.

Another example of this kind of transliteration is the Prime Ministers family name. It is spelled Shinawatra or something like that but the final 'ra' is not pronounced. Reading his name aloud you would say 'shinawat'...more or less. If I'm wrong on this, someone out there please let me know as I'm always interested.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pronunciation of Siam could mean a different meaning, in other language or dialect. The youger generation would prefer "Thailand" over "Siam". Prounciation of "Thailand" too is incorrectly announced, in many major occassion. I prefer "Thailand".

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How would you pronounce Thailand any other way than the predominantly accepted way?? I couldn't imagine anyone saying it incorrectly with the possible exception of some pronouncing the "TH" as in "Thigh-land" (yes I have heard some Singaporeans call it this - and no, not because of that either)...

[bangkokian]

When I tell people in the U.S.A. that i am from Thailand, many would say the name of the country back to me, as if I've made a mistake pronouncing the word. To that extent, I'd say that subtle differences exist in the pronunciation of the word, Thailand.

Technically, I prefer "Siam" to "Thailand." However, an 'official' or documented name-change is really not practical and I also don't want any further exoticization of the country.

The idea of using both names sound good to me, and I think that is already being practiced unoficially. Recently, prior to the Suk Chai campaign, TAT launched a themed campaign, which has the word, Siam in it... I've forgotten the full name of the campaign. By the way, if I am not mistaken, Siam Land is a name of a property development company.

What about Krungthep vs. Bangkok? The city is definitely no longer a "barng" (roughly translates as village), nor do you see makok (olive) trees around here any more.

Aside: The original "Britons" were not "English" (Anglo Saxons). Great Britain is an interesting term.

[bangkokian]

should I change my name to krungthepian?--Don't think anyone would care.

Yours Truly,

bangkoian

[mnoorsapl]

Thailand is recognized worldwide by its current name.

Here's my suggestion:

Thailand remains the internationally accepted name, but officially, it should be known as, "The Kingdom of Siam."

I think it is just historically and culturally more appropriate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A sensible solution. Lets stick to the current "Thailand"

"The Kingdom of Siam." is history.

Sawadee

[Dradam]

Would you rather have a Thai person come up to you and say, "I am Thailand" or "I am Siam". I like the second because it rhymes.

Would they ever say, "I am Siamese, if you please." I don't think so.

Some people have a hard enough time saying I am Thai (without the land).

I also prefer Siam because too many people confuse Thailand and Taiwan.

Although I guess changing a name to cater to the uneducated is actually good policy as they outnumber the educated. Officially changing the name can actually provide more advertising.

"Amazing Siam"

"Hidden Siam"

"I am Mam. Mam I am. I am Siam."

[Jai Dee]

234 votes in total so far, but only 40 posts...

C'mon voters.... tell us why you voted the way you did.

[The Philosopher]

Holland again is the English name the correct name is The Netherlands! America is a Continent and the United States of America are a country within that Continent, it would be like calling Thailand Aisa.

The official name is The Netherlands, Holland is a part of The Netherlands (two provinces: North (Amsterdam) and South (The Hague and Rotterdam).

About 1600/1700 Holland was the important part and sailed all over the world (in China, Japan, the new world, now USA) and form that time Holland is known. Since 1830 The Netherlands exist in the current state.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The best part of Dutch history was King Billy coming to Ireland - what was all that about

[Thomas_Merton]

Holland again is the English name the correct name is The Netherlands! America is a Continent and the United States of America are a country within that Continent, it would be like calling Thailand Aisa.

The official name is The Netherlands, Holland is a part of The Netherlands (two provinces: North (Amsterdam) and South (The Hague and Rotterdam).

About 1600/1700 Holland was the important part and sailed all over the world (in China, Japan, the new world, now USA) and form that time Holland is known. Since 1830 The Netherlands exist in the current state.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The best part of Dutch history was King Billy coming to Ireland - what was all that about

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Beware, you risk stirring a hornet's nest of sectarianism.

There has been more than enough blood shed on this matter.

[alex100]

Surely history is history - The Japanese are trying to hide theirs at the moment - hence protests in China - should we try to hid the facts because some may find them distastful - should we not dicuss the holoucaust because we find it distasteful - should we not dicuss slavery because we find it distasteful.

I think not

Lest we forget

[mnoorsapl]

234 votes in total so far, but only 40 posts... 

C'mon voters.... tell us why you voted the way you did. 

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If "Siam" is in favor, why can't we have "Sukhothai" , why not "Lanna"

Stick to the curent the "THAILAND"

[Richard W]

Hi Sabaijai - bringing the Thai Lu nomenclature into the discussion is a double-edged sword .... western anthropologists give the name Lu or Lue (pronounced "luhr") to a distinct group of peoples in Yunnan and Guangxi, but the Chinese use it as a semi-derogatory term for all "hill tribe" Tai peoples in those provinces, except in places like the Kunming Institute mentioned in a reply above. 

In the 13th century, she would be described as Tai, not Thai, as are most of the non-Siamese ethnics distincly identifiable today - but correct Anglo-phonetic spelling should remain Dtai due to pronunciation.  In writings, I use Dtai to mean the Tai prior to establishing the Tai kingdoms in Thailand, after which I use the Tai spelling, but reserve Thai for the period after the kingdom's name change - it makes it easier to follow when reading.

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As far as the spelling goes, I'm merely transcribing from the modern Thai, who today write ไทลื้อ = Thai Lu/Leu (choose whatever Roman script you prefer for the -อื sound), or less commonly (and in imitation of Western scholars, though there's no concrete need for it) ไตลื้อ. I don't see any need to use historic terms no longer in use, and use of /dt/ to transcribe the unaspirated/unvoiced /t/ sound readily transcribed by RTGS as /t/ seems unwieldy.

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The SW & Central Tai ethnonym can get confusing. In Mengrai's day it was probably still [dai], though the voicing was probably already affecting the vowel quality. In the North, the effect is restricted to the tone, so the initial consonant is pronounced t there, written d in Pinyin (whence the 'Dai' nationality in China). Tai Lue uses the consonant historically corresponding to Thai ท. In Siamese and Lao (and other geographically associated dialects), the breathiness of the vowel was re-interpreted as aspiration, a less common outcome, but also seen in Panjabi.

As to the issue what is the correct way of transcribing these consonants, perhaps we should go back to the origin of the alphabet with vowels. The Greeks had the contrasts th ~ t ~ d, ph ~ p ~ b and, unlike Thai, kh ~ k ~ g. (I don't think the Etruscans' using c (from gamma) for the k sound is relevant.) The English letters come from the unaspirated members of the series. Although the Greeks did invent letters for the ph and kh sounds, they also wrote them with h in some places, a convention the Romans used and we retained. (Theta seems always to have been used for the th sound.) Thus the linguists' usage, mostly adopted in the RTGS, is based on sound precedent.

Is there any politics in the linguists' use of 'Tai' for the language family? I had assumed it was just to avoid confusion with Thailand, but perhaps it was a protest against Thai revanchism.

[bangkokian]

VERY TRUE! And perhaps we can just (pretend) to change the name for two years and then change it back for double free advertising a la MR T's bizzy style.

Folks here are pretty flexible.

Would you rather have a Thai person come up to you and say, "I am Thailand" or "I am Siam".  I like the second because it rhymes.

Would they ever say, "I am Siamese, if you please."  I don't think so.

Some people have a hard enough time saying I am Thai (without the land).

I also prefer Siam because too many people confuse Thailand and Taiwan.

Although I guess changing a name to cater to the uneducated is actually good policy as they outnumber the educated.  Officially changing the name can actually provide more advertising.

"Amazing Siam"

"Hidden Siam"

"I am Mam.  Mam I am.  I am Siam."

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[waldwolf]

Ah......does this come under the heading of a "Thailand" massage...

......or a "Siamese" massage?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Ah......does this come under the heading of a "Thailand" massage...

......or a "Siamese" massage?

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[sonnyJ]

Ah......does this come under the heading of a "Thailand" massage...

......or a "Siamese" massage?

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[sonnyJ]

Your thinking makes lots of sense and it's interesting to read about. Then some don't. You have many historical references. What is your source and reference? Please quote that atleast.

Do you think people will buy your rewriting of history just like that???

In the contects you dont make much sense. Not a single stated date?

We all have right for opinions. And that's great, but lets not call opinions stated history.

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Much greater detail is available in my published books (available through Asia Books, DK Books etc and a number of larger independant stores depending on where you live).

They contain full date and bibliographical data, plus lists of source documents and their original languages and countries of origin. If you wish to know more detail, then please put your hand in your wallet and buy the books - I did not add academic style footnote cross references to my post, as it is inappropriate for an Internet forum, I attempted to use easy to follow logic - sorry if it leaves you unconvinced and that you will have to buy something (instead of getting it free) in order to satisfy your curiosity.

In general, my sources are of two type - the modern writings of distinguished academics (as opposed to the TAT pulp fiction promulgated and repeated daily), and the medieval and earlier chronicles written in a variety of languages and locations. The Kunming Institute of Ethnic Minority Studies has been invaluable to me in researching the inter-relationships between the Dtai, Tai, and Syam peoples of past and present - you may want to visit them sometime as their archives are vast and the staff speak excellent English. Additionally, Sri Lankan temple chronicles have a lot of information about pre-13th Century AD "Thailand".

For contextual clarification .....

Mon Dvaravati Culture of the Siamese central plains was supplanted around 600-700 AD by emergent cultures and conquered by Angkor Khmers during the 9th & 10th centuries

Angkor sprang from the former Chenla (Southern tip of modern Laos) to supplant the former Fonan kingdom (existed 1st - 6th C AD) but it was not until Suriyavaraman II took control in 802AD that Angkor extended its realm as far as the 3 Pagodas Pass and north to the SipSongPanNa of Yunnan, although north of Chiang Saen was more likely to have been tributary states rather than conquered lands.

NanChao (the southern Prince) gave way to Nanchao (the southern princedom) with Beijing's blessing around the 8th C AD (I don't have dates to hand as I type this) and the repeated Chinese "Expeditions of Authority" led to Nanchao citizens migrating west and south - the Dtai began entering upper Thailand and from this sprang kingdoms like Phayao (which together with Sukhothai allied with Mengrai's LanNa in the 1280's AD to "resist the Mongols")

By the early 1200s, Angkor was suffering internal strifes and losing its grip on frontier provinces. This allowed the revolt in Sukhothai that led to Ramkhamhaeng's grandfather establishing himself as king. The Chiang Saen and Ngoern Yang regions of extreme upper modern Thailand follwed and being cut off from Angkor, regions north of them followed suit until the middle Mekhong area was a mass of independant village and township kingdoms. They were united under Mengrai of LanNa during his campaigns beginning in the 1250s through to the 1280s by which time he had established his capital in the former Mon-Khmer location of Wieng Kum Kam. from WKK he launched his Dtai and Tai unifying expeditions into Martaban, Pegu, Shan States, SipSongPanNa, Kentung, LanChang (Louang Phrabang), VienChang (Vientiane) and formed his alliance with Sukhothai and Nandapuri (Nan). He had already received allegiance from the Vietnamese Dtai in the Black and Red River valleys while still at Chiang Rai in the previous decade.

It was during this time that the Mongols claimed victory over Pagan, but modern theories are that the Syam-Shan actually carried out the defeat.

By 1400 AD, the alliance had broken apart and the Burmans (note - BurmaNs not Burmese) had been ousted from Ava / Mandalay regions by the Shan who now had a king on the throne in Pegu (Dtai-Tai-Syamese royalty once again) instead of a Mon Monarch as previously. Sukhothai was warring regularly with LanNa - usually allied to would-be usurpers from Chiang Rai, and Ayutthaya was ascendant but embroiled with quelling Khmer resurgence in the east, as well as pacifying (but conquering) the Malay Sultanates (nothing's changed there). It was also during this period that large numbers of Lao were brought into Issaan, and large numbers of Chinese into LanNa to expand the OTOP principle established by Mengrai as an extension of the former Mon system of specialised villages. Thus Ming porcelain fragments are found at most archaeological sites in the north.

...... best stop here before I turn this into a new book

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gaz Chiangmai, we may agree with somethings but not all, like about the history science.

Please reveal your name so we can buy the books. And the places of publishing.

I dont intend to do research on history of Thailand, just to find good publications on the matter. Some Wyatt's books are familiar to me. What else would you suggest?