March 12: 'Most Worrying Day' For Thailand

[ballpoint]

...it is a very true statement of the desire of most of the rural poor ( the reds if you like the label)...

...Get out sometime and see for yourself -- get out of your comfort zone -- go where farang do not go -- where education, health care, standard of living and self esteem are all pathetically bad -- is it propaganda to want a decent future -- at least for their children !

Where is this mystical land where farang do not go? The arrogance of the reds, trying to make out they speak for the rural poor, is one of the biggest reasons to dislike them. If you followed your own advice and actually did get out you'd find out that there are pockets of red supporters, pockets of red haters and pockets who don't really give a toss, but just want to get on with their lives.

More incitement is in the Thai Visa headline " Pro Thaksin Rally " -- this is NOT a pro Thaksin rally

Rubbish. The reds goal is to overthrow the current government. The reds are inherently intertwinned with the PTP. The PTP's stated goal is to bring Thaksin back as PM. Whichever way you try to spin it, supporting the reds as they currently stand is exactly the same as supporting Thaksin. This introduces the conundrum of those claiming to be prodemocracy actively campaigning to reinstate a criminal who stole from the same Thai people they claim to support. Hardly democratic.

[LannaRed]

Most worrying day for thailand?

All of thailand or just thailand minority elites and vested interests.

Could turn out to be the best day ever for thailand if it is a pre-cursor to the return of democracy.

Will you next start talking about the RSDM and 80% women?

Please tell what is "RSDM" ? -- I do not understand all of this farangese.

"80% women" I understand -- they are some new type of kathoey -- right ?

[Old Man River]

More incitement is in the Thai Visa headline " Pro Thaksin Rally " -- this is NOT a pro Thaksin rally, but a peaceful demonstation, by those who have been deprived and disadvantaged for far too long.

If this isn't a pro Thaksin rally, why is it happening right after the Supreme Court's decision and why is it being organized by Thaksin's cronies?

[brahmburgers]

.....the reality is, the up country poor felt his government was the first to really place and emphasis on trying to give a "fair go" to plight of the average upcountry rural person. It is that simple. They will not forget easy. It has nothing to do with his billions, but it does have somethings to do with there wanting to see him back. You don't have to believe Mr T is the solution, but they sure do. Only the electorate voting Mr T out due to failure would have settled this dragon, but unfortunately the amataya intervened thus not allowing democracy to take it's course (for possibly the first time in Thai history)

If 'it's that simple' as you propose, then the poor who feel wronged should tough it out until the next election, and see how well things turn out for them. The poor don't vote as a block. They're individuals, and vote accordingly. Granted, there have been a lot of twists and turns in Thai politics during the past eight years. Thailand is not a mature democracy, and it shows when the dissatisfied group is impatient and wants their people in right away. The immaturity of Thai democracy also shows when there are no political debates and very little substantive campaigning. There are many reasons for that, but on the top of the list are:

1. Thais assume that what they think/know, is also general knowledge, so it's not necessary to verbalize it.

2. Thais took a bad habit from Americans and amplified it to ridiculous levels, namely: suing for defamation of character. That's the #1 reason why there are no meaningful debates on political issues in Thailand - people are too afeared of getting sued. Thaksin was the biggest abuser of slapping lawsuits (to shut up non-adherents, and to perhaps make more money) and even H.M.the King publicly rebuked him for it.

As for the threat of giant demonstration. It won't happen, just as the Reds have yet to deliver on any of their prior threats to stage large peaceful demonstrations

Their declaration included the sentence: "We will make the Abhisit government make a final choice between democracy and dictatorship." This is the first I've heard of Abhisit having a dictatorship. Irresponsible and silly statements like that show the hollowness of all the nice talking 'non-violent' stuff in the rest of the Reds call-to-action manifesto.

[LannaRed]

More incitement is in the Thai Visa headline " Pro Thaksin Rally " -- this is NOT a pro Thaksin rally, but a peaceful demonstation, by those who have been deprived and disadvantaged for far too long.

If this isn't a pro Thaksin rally, why is it happening right after the Supreme Court's decision and why is it being organized by Thaksin's cronies?

Yes. K. Thaksin has been very much in the forefront, since the Supreme Court decision -- and as the FORMER focal point of change for the rural poor, this has provided a catalyst for the rally -- but the purpose is not to support him -- any more than it is to support the bank bombings which also occured recently.

Many of Thaksin's associates ( past and present ) share the conviction that change is needed now. Some would go to extremes to try to seek change ( or their own ends) -- any cause attracts many -- some good and some bad -- we can only hope that those who seek trouble will be igmored and cast aside

[CLOD]

Most worrying day for thailand?

All of thailand or just thailand minority elites and vested interests.

Could turn out to be the best day ever for thailand if it is a pre-cursor to the return of democracy.

Will you next start talking about the RSDM and 80% women?

How about the military junta elite PAD fascists and the 70-30 rule?

[CLOD]

...it is a very true statement of the desire of most of the rural poor ( the reds if you like the label)...

...Get out sometime and see for yourself -- get out of your comfort zone -- go where farang do not go -- where education, health care, standard of living and self esteem are all pathetically bad -- is it propaganda to want a decent future -- at least for their children !

Where is this mystical land where farang do not go? The arrogance of the reds, trying to make out they speak for the rural poor, is one of the biggest reasons to dislike them. If you followed your own advice and actually did get out you'd find out that there are pockets of red supporters, pockets of red haters and pockets who don't really give a toss, but just want to get on with their lives.

More incitement is in the Thai Visa headline " Pro Thaksin Rally " -- this is NOT a pro Thaksin rally

Rubbish. The reds goal is to overthrow the current government. The reds are inherently intertwinned with the PTP. The PTP's stated goal is to bring Thaksin back as PM. Whichever way you try to spin it, supporting the reds as they currently stand is exactly the same as supporting Thaksin. This introduces the conundrum of those claiming to be prodemocracy actively campaigning to reinstate a criminal who stole from the same Thai people they claim to support. Hardly democratic.

And the PAD and yellows goal?

And the invented coup-issued law?

Democracy?

Pathetic.

[plachon]

Here's a press release from the UDD on the upcoming rally, copied from their Facebook page

A MESSAGE TO THE GOOD PEOPLE OF BANGKOK

On Friday the 12th of March, a campaign aimed at ending the age of the Thai military dictatorship and restoring freedom, democracy and justice to our beautiful nation will begin. At this very moment, hundreds of thousands of people from all across our country not already in Bangkok are preparing to make their way to the capital, in defiance of a regime that has proven its willingness to commit violence and strip away the human rights of those who speak against it.

These people have peace in their hearts, but change also. Some wear red shirts, and some do not. Some of them march in support of a democratically elected leader who, for good or evil, was brought down by design of the military, not the will of the people. And yet others come too, some of whom used to wear yellow, who marched against what they perceived to be an authoritarian regime but have since witnessed far worse injustices.

These people are united by a few key beliefs. The belief in our constitutional monarchy. The belief in the power of non-violent change. The belief in double-standards-free justice. And the belief that, as Thai citizens, they deserve to have their voices heard and their concerns addressed. These people are united under the banner of the United front for Democracy against Dictatorship, or the UDD. And they are not to be feared- because if you believe in these things, then you are one of them as well.

This campaign will be the largest ever seen in Thai history. It is aimed at forcing the Abhisit regime (and the shadow government that supports it) to recognise what they are doing to our country and respond by dissolving parliament and calling for free and fair, internationally monitored elections- nothing more, nothing less. You might be forgiven for your scepticism that a non-violent campaign could achieve what we are seeking, but I would ask you to consider how the Indian nation was born. It was thanks to a peaceful struggle led by a man called Mahatma Gandhi, and was successful in liberating the Indian nation from the rule of the British Empire.

We are convinced that for the coming struggle we need no guns, bullets or blades, but only solidarity and sincerity in our hearts. We have learned from the mistakes of the past, and will allow no repeat of them. We will stand together, we will remain vigilant against troublemakers, and we will take care to ensure that no foreigner is harmed or intimidated. We will stare defiantly down the barrels of the guns of the soldiers who remain loyal to the men who wish us to remain silent and submissive, and we will embrace with open arms those who wish to put down their weapons and join us. We will make the Abhisit government make a final choice between democracy and dictatorship.

The junta knows that it will not survive a fair election, and it fears our demands, and wants you to fear us too. It wants you to ignore us, prevent us, or worse- stand by as we are arrested or cut down for exercising our democratic rights. But you should not. Because beneath every red shirt is a Thai citizen, and within their chests beats a heart that, like every other Thai, wants prosperity, wants freedom, wants respect and wants to see Thailand become the nation its citizens deserve.

On the 12th of March, the peaceful struggle for Thailand's future will begin. The UDD calls for every person in Bangkok who has realised what our nation is in danger of becoming to welcome us as friends, to come onto the street and to join us in our call for change in Thailand.

What a crock of sh*t this statement is. Pure propaganda and incitement to riot. Must have been phanthom authored by Senator John McCain.

This is in no way a "crock" -- it is a very true statement of the desire of most of the rural poor ( the reds if you like the label).

It is information, opinion and statement of intent -- not "propaganda".

There is nothing even close to "incitement to riot", quite the opposite, in fact -- your statement is closer to incitement to riot, than is this very clear staement of position.

More incitement is in the Thai Visa headline " Pro Thaksin Rally " -- this is NOT a pro Thaksin rally, but a peaceful demonstation, by those who have been deprived and disadvantaged for far too long. K. Thaksin is involved only from the point of view that he gave all of these people hope -- hope for a decent future !

Get out sometime and see for yourself -- get out of your comfort zone -- go where farang do not go -- where education, health care, standard of living and self esteem are all pathetically bad -- is it propaganda to want a decent future -- at least for their children !

I'm going to rise to your lure Lanna Red (now there's a nice neutral name wouldn't you know) and bite.

This statement is pure propaganda at its worst and hiding a multitude of lies and falsehoods for anyone with the sense to realise its intent. First it is squarely aimed at farangs, and there is nothing the Reds would like more than a bunch of deluded farangs to attend, as this would not only give the Reds a faint sense that their forlorn cause is somehow "international", but also the farangs would be useful "human shield" against the military who will be there to protect the capital from this Red mob. In the event that things did turn nasty, the Red leaders would hope that the farang presence would somehow protect them from the worst, by mwe will take care to ensure that no foreigner is harmed or intimidatedoderating any military action. This are cynical and nasty tactics, that only cowards use. People can rest assured that the sentence: "we will take care to ensure that no foreigner is harmed or intimidated" carries about as much weight as Thaksin's promise that he would give up playing politics (how many times as he said that now?).

Secondly, I find your statement, "Get out sometime and see for yourself -- get out of your comfort zone -- go where farang do not go -- where education, health care, standard of living and self esteem are all pathetically bad -- is it propaganda to want a decent future -- at least for their children !" both patronising and ill informed. As someone who spends more than their fair share of time in villages throughout upper Isaan, then I am relatively qualified to address this loaded sentence. I find little evidence to support any of your assertions about education, health care, standard of living and self-esteem now being any worse than when Dear Leader was in power, and if anything they are now slightly better. This is not defending the govt standards, as there is massive room for improvement, but it would be naive to think that the people who go on this Red rally are really that bothered about the things you mention, compared to the vain hope of getting Mr Thaksin back in power. They will be there because they are paid to attend and love nothing more than these "free" handouts that they became used to over the past few years of Thaksin largesse to the Red cause. Everyone in Thailand wants a "decent future" for themselves and their kids - this is not some preserve of the paid lackeys of Thaksin.

But what concern is this rallly of farangs? Do you really want to be put in the firing line of Thaksin's faithfuls last ditch stand to regain his stolen billions?

[RegularReader]

...it is a very true statement of the desire of most of the rural poor ( the reds if you like the label)...

...Get out sometime and see for yourself -- get out of your comfort zone -- go where farang do not go -- where education, health care, standard of living and self esteem are all pathetically bad -- is it propaganda to want a decent future -- at least for their children !

Where is this mystical land where farang do not go? The arrogance of the reds, trying to make out they speak for the rural poor, is one of the biggest reasons to dislike them. If you followed your own advice and actually did get out you'd find out that there are pockets of red supporters, pockets of red haters and pockets who don't really give a toss, but just want to get on with their lives.

More incitement is in the Thai Visa headline " Pro Thaksin Rally " -- this is NOT a pro Thaksin rally

Rubbish. The reds goal is to overthrow the current government. The reds are inherently intertwinned with the PTP. The PTP's stated goal is to bring Thaksin back as PM. Whichever way you try to spin it, supporting the reds as they currently stand is exactly the same as supporting Thaksin. This introduces the conundrum of those claiming to be prodemocracy actively campaigning to reinstate a criminal who stole from the same Thai people they claim to support. Hardly democratic.

Ballpoint is quite correct when he says the reds goal, is to overthrow the current government.

I would add to that - then what, eh ?

Have they ever mouthed anything constructve about helping Thailand's many poor and underprivialged people, apart from giving them "democracy" ?

They don't even know what "democracy means: apart from getting their Big Boss in Dubai off the hook and giving him his money back.

This is not a movement which has so far shown itself capable of anyhting more than this ultimate goal, for its "final solution".

My comments here are targeted at the the leaders, not the poor souls who are so desperate they are willing to give their support to a group of their own fellow Thais, who in support, have little interest in anything more than 1. Doing the bidding of almost the biggest phu yaii ever and 2. Lining their own pockets. This is deceit of the first order. But sadly, as the 2006 coup showed, such entrenched views amongst so many Thai people, will not be overcome, just by getting rid of them.

This requires a lot, lot more - including genuine taking care of the the needs, of ALL Thais, in a fair and just way.

There is no quick fix and this proposed rally next weekend, will do little to move the discourse towards these ideals.

Let's just hope, if it does happen, it is peaceful.

Edited March 5, 2010 by RegularReader

[jdinasia]

Yes. K. Thaksin has been very much in the forefront, since the Supreme Court decision -- and as the FORMER focal point of change for the rural poor, this has provided a catalyst for the rally -- but the purpose is not to support him -- any more than it is to support the bank bombings which also occured recently.

Many of Thaksin's associates ( past and present ) share the conviction that change is needed now. Some would go to extremes to try to seek change ( or their own ends) -- any cause attracts many -- some good and some bad -- we can only hope that those who seek trouble will be igmored and cast aside

Strange ---

I seem to remember the rally being announced AND a statement that Thaksin would get all his money back in the same press conference!

If you want people to see that this isn't about Thaksin and that violence isn't a part of the red platform then REAL distance needs to be placed between the UDD and other red groups and Thaksin and Sae Daeng etc

That would mean formal statements condemning Thaksin for his crimes that he has been convicted of and calling for his return to Thailand to serve his sentence and face the rest of the charges. That means formal statements stating that Sae Daeng and the violence he represents is abhorrent to the reds and not part of their political platform of change. These statements need to be in Thai and English on their websites etc. It needs to be the lead news statement on People TV. It needs to be the focus of Truth Today! Until then the UDD page is strictly propaganda imho.

I am guessing that NO red group will actually distance themselves from Thaksin, and since Thaksin is still "close" with Sae Daeng, sae daeng by extension.

[ballpoint]

And the PAD and yellows goal?

And the invented coup-issued law?

Democracy?

Pathetic.

How about doing yourself a favour and actually posting some facts for a change, or at least answering points made against you? Pathetic indeed.

[LannaRed]

...it is a very true statement of the desire of most of the rural poor ( the reds if you like the label)...

...Get out sometime and see for yourself -- get out of your comfort zone -- go where farang do not go -- where education, health care, standard of living and self esteem are all pathetically bad -- is it propaganda to want a decent future -- at least for their children !

Where is this mystical land where farang do not go? The arrogance of the reds, trying to make out they speak for the rural poor, is one of the biggest reasons to dislike them. If you followed your own advice and actually did get out you'd find out that there are pockets of red supporters, pockets of red haters and pockets who don't really give a toss, but just want to get on with their lives.

More incitement is in the Thai Visa headline " Pro Thaksin Rally " -- this is NOT a pro Thaksin rally

Rubbish. The reds goal is to overthrow the current government. The reds are inherently intertwinned with the PTP. The PTP's stated goal is to bring Thaksin back as PM. Whichever way you try to spin it, supporting the reds as they currently stand is exactly the same as supporting Thaksin. This introduces the conundrum of those claiming to be prodemocracy actively campaigning to reinstate a criminal who stole from the same Thai people they claim to support. Hardly democratic.

Where is this mystical land ? -- it is Issan -- it is Lanna -- it is the hill villages -- it is many places. If the red leaders ( not the extremeists) do not speak for the rural poor -- who does ?

Perhaps you would prefer that they have no voice -- and then the whole problem goes away -- right ? You can sit back and enjoy a calm and placid elitist Thailand

Change is NEVER comfortable !

I live in the rural north -- I "get out" every day -- many red supporters -- almost no red haters -- but mostly "don't know -- don't care" -- mai pen rai !

The red goal is not to " overthrow the current government ", but to immediately have a free and honest election -- unlike the last election which was extremely tainted by the actions of the Junta... and then adjusted by the courts to suit their needs.

[Scott]

I have gone through this thread and deleted quite a few posts. A number of those deleted were OK, but unfortunately quoted and responded to offending posts.

At this time, I don't believe any of these posters deserve a warning, but I will look at them carefully before deciding.

We encourage people to post their opinions, whatever they may be, but please exercise care in making negative references to other posters or extremely negative remarks about the people who belong to these groups. For example, there is a difference between referring to a large swath of the population as being poorly educated and calling them morons.

Please take care, keep it civil so we can all appreciate your comments.

[RegularReader]

...it is a very true statement of the desire of most of the rural poor ( the reds if you like the label)...

...Get out sometime and see for yourself -- get out of your comfort zone -- go where farang do not go -- where education, health care, standard of living and self esteem are all pathetically bad -- is it propaganda to want a decent future -- at least for their children !

Where is this mystical land where farang do not go? The arrogance of the reds, trying to make out they speak for the rural poor, is one of the biggest reasons to dislike them. If you followed your own advice and actually did get out you'd find out that there are pockets of red supporters, pockets of red haters and pockets who don't really give a toss, but just want to get on with their lives.

More incitement is in the Thai Visa headline " Pro Thaksin Rally " -- this is NOT a pro Thaksin rally

Rubbish. The reds goal is to overthrow the current government. The reds are inherently intertwinned with the PTP. The PTP's stated goal is to bring Thaksin back as PM. Whichever way you try to spin it, supporting the reds as they currently stand is exactly the same as supporting Thaksin. This introduces the conundrum of those claiming to be prodemocracy actively campaigning to reinstate a criminal who stole from the same Thai people they claim to support. Hardly democratic.

Where is this mystical land ? -- it is Issan -- it is Lanna -- it is the hill villages -- it is many places. If the red leaders ( not the extremeists) do not speak for the rural poor -- who does ?

Perhaps you would prefer that they have no voice -- and then the whole problem goes away -- right ? You can sit back and enjoy a calm and placid elitist Thailand

Change is NEVER comfortable !

I live in the rural north -- I "get out" every day -- many red supporters -- almost no red haters -- but mostly "don't know -- don't care" -- mai pen rai !

The red goal is not to " overthrow the current government ", but to immediately have a free and honest election -- unlike the last election which was extremely tainted by the actions of the Junta... and then adjusted by the courts to suit their needs.

Okay Lanna red, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with what you say.

But I would question your last sentence by asking : THEN WHAT ?

You talk about poor people need ing help - something I am sure most of us feel is a just cause.

However you seem to fall for the same slogan as so many by immediatley stating the aim is to have fair and honest elections.

Once again, I think we would all like to see that.

But where is the talk about putting food in people's mouths; better educating Thai kids - all Thai kids ; helping farmers get better prices for their efforts?

Where are these things in the Reds ?

[jdinasia]

LannaRed ---- Your post doesn't make any sense (AND does not match what the reds themselves are saying). Immediate elections is in fact forcing the current government out. In effect "overthrowing" them. The last elections were sufficient for the reds when Samak and Somchai were in office but not when Abhisit is. It seems as if the only choice is to accept that Abhisit was elected in the same way that Samak and Somchai were and thus have the right and responsibility to lead until their coalition folds or the next elections are due.

[frodo]

The red goal is not to " overthrow the current government ", but to immediately have a free and honest election -- unlike the last election which was extremely tainted by the actions of the Junta... and then adjusted by the courts to suit their needs.

Nonsense. Both UDD and PT have both expressed their desire to overthrow the government.

“Our aim is to bring down the administration,” said Sean Boonpracong, a spokesman for the Redhshirt United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD).

Red Shirts Ready For Million Man March

"The rally's purpose is to bring down the coalition government, while the UDD group expects at least one million UDD supporters tojoin the rally, said Jatuporn.

The UDD group aims to overthrow the Democrat-led coalition government by the end of 2009, the UDD core leader said. "

Thailand's UDD To Hold Anti-Government Rally

[Credo]

So we might get another holiday. How nice. I wonder if it has ever dawned on the powers-that-be that there is more to Thailand than just Bangkok and that what is happening in Bangkok doesn't necessarily impact negatively on the rest of the country.

[Preferential]

Most worrying day for thailand?

All of thailand or just thailand minority elites and vested interests.

Could turn out to be the best day ever for thailand if it is a pre-cursor to the return of democracy.

Will you next start talking about the RSDM and 80% women?

Please tell what is "RSDM" ? -- I do not understand all of this farangese.

I think it's a lot like "BDSM" if I'm not mistaken.

[animatic]

...it is a very true statement of the desire of most of the rural poor ( the reds if you like the label)...

...Get out sometime and see for yourself -- get out of your comfort zone -- go where farang do not go -- where education, health care, standard of living and self esteem are all pathetically bad -- is it propaganda to want a decent future -- at least for their children !

Where is this mystical land where farang do not go? The arrogance of the reds, trying to make out they speak for the rural poor, is one of the biggest reasons to dislike them. If you followed your own advice and actually did get out you'd find out that there are pockets of red supporters, pockets of red haters and pockets who don't really give a toss, but just want to get on with their lives.

More incitement is in the Thai Visa headline " Pro Thaksin Rally " -- this is NOT a pro Thaksin rally

Rubbish. The reds goal is to overthrow the current government. The reds are inherently intertwined with the PTP. The PTP's stated goal is to bring Thaksin back as PM. Whichever way you try to spin it, supporting the reds as they currently stand is exactly the same as supporting Thaksin. This introduces the conundrum of those claiming to be prodemocracy actively campaigning to reinstate a criminal who stole from the same Thai people they claim to support. Hardly democratic.

Ditto this as propaganda.

Rebranding the post Songkran and post Thaksin court case Reds as something they have never been.

Like a big conglomerate changing names to give it a modern look and feel

to sell more old school product to a new market segment.

Take a bit from here a bit from there and mix it all up and add on 80% women,

and suddenly those gun, knife, machete. slingshot wielding violent nutters of Sept 2nd Samak time

Red shirts attacking in the streets accompanied by PPP MPs will be forgotten...

Don't count in it Lanna your asking for people to forget too much, even in thailand.

But regardless of this rebranding effort as ballpoint says ;

bringing down the government, your loften stated aim,

is the same as supporting PTP and Thakins return to power.

And THAT wouldn't bring true democracy to Thailand by most thinking persons imaginings.

[ballpoint]

Where is this mystical land ? -- it is Issan -- it is Lanna -- it is the hill villages -- it is many places. If the red leaders ( not the extremeists) do not speak for the rural poor -- who does ?

That's funny. I have lived in Isaan for almost 20 years, I've travelled extensively in the north, including the hill villages. By any definition, I am a farang. I'd still like to know where this area that farangs never go to is? The trouble with people speaking for the poor is that they never ask the poor if they want them to do so, anyone arrogant enough to assume the poor speak with one voice is seriously deluded, and they mainly turn out to be the source of even bigger problems for the poor - Mao, Stalin, Castro, Kim.

Perhaps you would prefer that they have no voice -- and then the whole problem goes away -- right ? You can sit back and enjoy a calm and placid elitist Thailand

What an arrogant, insulting, and above all patronising statement. You know nothing about what I want. You know nothing about my situation. You red lovers assume that anyone against you is against the poor. When someone points out the fact that they are not one homogeneous mass with one brain and one mouth, but are actually individuals, with individual preferences, it upsets you. You'd prefer to think of the poor as a miserable, down trodden group who are just waiting for someone to come along and redeem them. Sorry to blast a hole in your perfect world, but as I said before, there are groups who support the reds, groups who despise them and groups who are indifferent. How can any group who is closely linked with a man who stole from the country, including the poor, who ordered the murder of thousands, most of them poor, and was involved in the disgraceful cover up of the bird flu, leading to the deaths of many poor, be a serious contender for voice of the poor?

The red goal is not to " overthrow the current government ", but to immediately have a free and honest election -- unlike the last election which was extremely tainted by the actions of the Junta... and then adjusted by the courts to suit their needs.

The reds stated goal is to indeed overthrow the government. The main barrier to a free and honest election is the reds themselves and their refusal to allow candidates they are opposed to to campaign freely. I didn't see any pro red campaigners on here protesting that the last elections were tainted at the time, only sour grapes when the Democrats were able to form a coalition. And if you are trying to tell us the courts were rigged when they disbanded the PPP and CTP then could you please provide evidence?

The best thing the pro democracy, pro poor individuals in the reds could do is to immediately leave the group and form their own movement. They could monitor the current government for corruption, demonstrate to ensure proper trials for leaders of both sides, watch over the next elections for vote buying, right of campaigning by all candidates in all areas, and voting irregularities, and monitor the next government for transparency while forming a very real barrier to any further coup. In order to do so they would themselves have to be totally open, with no current leadership of any side allowed, no current politicians, and no military. They would have no poltical affiliation, and being a true democratic movement, would be made up of individuals supporting all parties, willing to accept their preference may not be elected, but knowing it was for the greater good. Then you'd truely have an organisation for all.

[animatic]

...it is a very true statement of the desire of most of the rural poor ( the reds if you like the label)...

...Get out sometime and see for yourself -- get out of your comfort zone -- go where farang do not go -- where education, health care, standard of living and self esteem are all pathetically bad -- is it propaganda to want a decent future -- at least for their children !

Where is this mystical land where farang do not go? The arrogance of the reds, trying to make out they speak for the rural poor, is one of the biggest reasons to dislike them. If you followed your own advice and actually did get out you'd find out that there are pockets of red supporters, pockets of red haters and pockets who don't really give a toss, but just want to get on with their lives.

More incitement is in the Thai Visa headline " Pro Thaksin Rally " -- this is NOT a pro Thaksin rally

Rubbish. The reds goal is to overthrow the current government. The reds are inherently intertwinned with the PTP. The PTP's stated goal is to bring Thaksin back as PM. Whichever way you try to spin it, supporting the reds as they currently stand is exactly the same as supporting Thaksin. This introduces the conundrum of those claiming to be prodemocracy actively campaigning to reinstate a criminal who stole from the same Thai people they claim to support. Hardly democratic.

Where is this mystical land ? -- it is Issan -- it is Lanna -- it is the hill villages -- it is many places. If the red leaders ( not the extremeists) do not speak for the rural poor -- who does ?

Perhaps you would prefer that they have no voice -- and then the whole problem goes away -- right ? You can sit back and enjoy a calm and placid elitist Thailand

Change is NEVER comfortable !

I live in the rural north -- I "get out" every day -- many red supporters -- almost no red haters -- but mostly "don't know -- don't care" -- mai pen rai !

The red goal is not to " overthrow the current government ", but to immediately have a free and honest election -- unlike the last election which was extremely tainted by the actions of the Junta... and then adjusted by the courts to suit their needs.

A well Lannared you mention "Hill Villages".

My wife is hill tribe,

and people screaming protect Lanna Heritage came and beat some of her friends.

No more motivation than they were not pure enough Thai / Lanna appearing.

So where is this great heritage to be found, as if those hill tribes weren't there

100 years back? 500 years back; Not then a part of those glorious kingdoms you seek

to reinvent for your own political capital? Sorry this is unacceptable jingosit logic.

So this is how you support ALL your northern people in your mystical land of the north.

I lived there too, even if I have moved south. CMR51 is a travesty of human rights,

but I only hear from the red Side about Abhisit getting blamed for the doings of others.

The hypocracy runs deep.

With Thaksin controlling PTP and buying up the northern Puyais and rice millers interests,

and actively blocking any other campaigning from other parties, there is no chance of

free democratic elections in this climate, so waiting till the legally mandated time is a better choice.

The last thing we need as a barely stable Thaksin in the shadows controling Chalerm

as PM , bent o exacting his revenge aon ALL who stood up to him...

If there isn't a civil war from red provocations,

6 months in to Thaksin puppets 3 and there would be one.

Edited March 5, 2010 by animatic

[anotherpeter]

The best thing the pro democracy, pro poor individuals in the reds could do is to immediately leave the group and form their own movement. They could monitor the current government for corruption, demonstrate to ensure proper trials for leaders of both sides, watch over the next elections for vote buying, right of campaigning by all candidates in all areas, and voting irregularities, and monitor the next government for transparency while forming a very real barrier to any further coup. In order to do so they would themselves have to be totally open, with no current leadership of any side allowed, no current politicians, and no military. They would have no poltical affiliation, and being a true democratic movement, would be made up of individuals supporting all parties, willing to accept their preference may not be elected, but knowing it was for the greater good. Then you'd truely have an organisation for all.

HEAR!! HEAR!!

[elcent]

you're all to funny.

You're discussing the invasion of red shirts to Bangkok while probably tens of thousand are already here staying with relatives and friends.

Especially today, a strong influx, unusual traffic. I expect more to come.

[Netfan]

Get out sometime and see for yourself -- get out of your comfort zone -- go where farang do not go -- where education, health care, standard of living and self esteem are all pathetically bad -- is it propaganda to want a decent future -- at least for their children !

Thaksin was PM for 5 1/2 years, followed by Somchai and Samak. That would seem to have been enough time to change education (he was Education Minister for a time as well as PM), health care, standard of living and self esteem for the poor. But he didn't. Instead he spent his time lining his own pockets. So exactly how is he and his hand-picked and paid for red crew saviors of the poor? They are just using "the poor" as pawns in a dangerous game of power and money.

[ovaltina]

The truth is that Thailand is gripped by the same problem that many older democracies still suffer from, which is the the hive-mind issue. Beehives have a queen bee, the worker bees feed her & protect her, but ultimately she is a figurehead, she doesn't order mass executions etc. The hivemind, the worker bees operating as a single entity, carry out all the work and ensure that there is energy stored in the hive for the dark days etc. Again, the worker bees do this themselves to maintain hive harmony.

The hive functions because there is harmony. If there were no harmony, the honey & comb would stop.

Humans are obviously not bees, but future human societies will have hive-mind harmony, worker bees actually working for the good of the entire hive & not just because they are ordered to. Somewhere along the way in the past history, human leaders became the overweight central focus of the hive, stealing the proverbial honey,oredering all kinds of absurd things and harmony was lost. Hives don't need leaders, except as decoration.

Somebody mentioned in this thread ' in the hills they have no self-esteem, etc.', and that is terrible, but I would say that the same applies to the part of England I grew up in for 31 years, with poverty-stricken feral underfed inner-city kids with no education, no self esteem at all. Its a worldwide issue, not just Thailand. Its the failure of society where we abandoned hive-mind & gave the reigns of power to individuals.

In my view, education is the key to everything. If these 'adults' marching around with petrol bombs and baseball bats, went back to their villages and spent more time actually attending to their children, educating them (education begins at home ; reading, writing, cooking, sewing, weaving, carpentry, are just a handful of skills that a parent can teach their kids) and forming self-help community groups. Isn't that more useful for a progressive Thailand than marching on the capital, armed to the teeth, just to topple some decorative figurehead?

The truth is that I would be absolutely stunned if the current PM actually wanted the rural poor to suffer, if he actually wanted things to go backwards not forwards for this beautiful land. And while they wait for the wheels of progress to grind slowly onwards, people would be better spending time in their communities educating their kids that harmony is essential foundation stone to any society, without harmony there is only disaster.

[hammered]

More incitement is in the Thai Visa headline " Pro Thaksin Rally " -- this is NOT a pro Thaksin rally, but a peaceful demonstation, by those who have been deprived and disadvantaged for far too long.

If this isn't a pro Thaksin rally, why is it happening right after the Supreme Court's decision and why is it being organized by Thaksin's cronies?

Of course it is a pro-Thaksin rally. If you know any reds ask them and they will agree with what you said excepting the rather odd leadership

edited to add: well i assume the leadership wont as I dont know them and have no particualar desire to

Edited March 5, 2010 by hammered

[elcent]

when you are in a situation to live from one meal to another how could one create self esteem? It is survival and not in dignity at all. I could post names here of people dying or getting so much in dept due to hospital expenses not to mention education. People long for education, a good one. They just can't bear it any longer of how they get played.

Nothing much different in the States. Thousands of pregnant women are dying per year of complications during their pregnancy and they can't effort a hospital (was big news yesterday)

I think it's high time to skip the copy-cat undemocratic American way and look further to do something with substance and dignity for all.

Edited March 5, 2010 by elcent

[plachon]

Where is this mystical land ? -- it is Issan -- it is Lanna -- it is the hill villages -- it is many places. If the red leaders ( not the extremeists) do not speak for the rural poor -- who does ?

That's funny. I have lived in Isaan for almost 20 years, I've travelled extensively in the north, including the hill villages. By any definition, I am a farang. I'd still like to know where this area that farangs never go to is? The trouble with people speaking for the poor is that they never ask the poor if they want them to do so, anyone arrogant enough to assume the poor speak with one voice is seriously deluded, and they mainly turn out to be the source of even bigger problems for the poor - Mao, Stalin, Castro, Kim.

Perhaps you would prefer that they have no voice -- and then the whole problem goes away -- right ? You can sit back and enjoy a calm and placid elitist Thailand

What an arrogant, insulting, and above all patronising statement. You know nothing about what I want. You know nothing about my situation. You red lovers assume that anyone against you is against the poor. When someone points out the fact that they are not one homogeneous mass with one brain and one mouth, but are actually individuals, with individual preferences, it upsets you. You'd prefer to think of the poor as a miserable, down trodden group who are just waiting for someone to come along and redeem them. Sorry to blast a hole in your perfect world, but as I said before, there are groups who support the reds, groups who despise them and groups who are indifferent. How can any group who is closely linked with a man who stole from the country, including the poor, who ordered the murder of thousands, most of them poor, and was involved in the disgraceful cover up of the bird flu, leading to the deaths of many poor, be a serious contender for voice of the poor?

The red goal is not to " overthrow the current government ", but to immediately have a free and honest election -- unlike the last election which was extremely tainted by the actions of the Junta... and then adjusted by the courts to suit their needs.

The reds stated goal is to indeed overthrow the government. The main barrier to a free and honest election is the reds themselves and their refusal to allow candidates they are opposed to to campaign freely. I didn't see any pro red campaigners on here protesting that the last elections were tainted at the time, only sour grapes when the Democrats were able to form a coalition. And if you are trying to tell us the courts were rigged when they disbanded the PPP and CTP then could you please provide evidence?

The best thing the pro democracy, pro poor individuals in the reds could do is to immediately leave the group and form their own movement. They could monitor the current government for corruption, demonstrate to ensure proper trials for leaders of both sides, watch over the next elections for vote buying, right of campaigning by all candidates in all areas, and voting irregularities, and monitor the next government for transparency while forming a very real barrier to any further coup. In order to do so they would themselves have to be totally open, with no current leadership of any side allowed, no current politicians, and no military. They would have no poltical affiliation, and being a true democratic movement, would be made up of individuals supporting all parties, willing to accept their preference may not be elected, but knowing it was for the greater good. Then you'd truely have an organisation for all.

Good points all Ballpoint. But don't you think you should give Seasick Steve some credit for your tag?

[LannaRed]

Many interesting observations and arguments -- thank you all -- you have added to my education .

I continue to believe in the red movement -- I continue to believe that the poor need a voice, and that they most need a world class education and decent health care/nutrition -- not only more cooking and carpentry classes.

Most Thai poor are child like in their knowledge and approach to life -- they should have opportunity for more if they want more.

I am self-educated in English and many other subjects , but I had opportunity and motivation. Most rural poor do not have these. I wish I had access to decent health care and nutrition when I was young -- but now I will always have illness and no childeren -- but I have good life. My husband is farang and we provide free clinic in our village.

Ballpoint, you say: "What an arrogant, insulting, and above all patronising statement. You know nothing about what I want. You know nothing about my situation. You red lovers assume that anyone against you is against the poor. When someone points out the fact that they are not one homogeneous mass with one brain and one mouth, but are actually individuals, with individual preferences, it upsets you. You'd prefer to think of the poor as a miserable, down trodden group who are just waiting for someone to come along and redeem them. Sorry to blast a hole in your perfect world, but as I said before, there are groups who support the reds, groups who despise them and groups who are indifferent."

I am sorry you think I am arrogant and patronizing -- I don't want to know what you want or your situation. I can only say that some of us need to speak for the poor -- better that I speak than they have no voice -- better I speak than a farang speak for them -- whether farang has the name ballpoint or K. Abhisit.

The red movement will endure through this phase of identification with K. Thaksin and many thugs.

I do not go to Bangkok for the protest - we have work to do here in Tambon Ban Hong

[Insight]

Well I'm convinced.