Greed And Pyramid Schemes On The Rise In Thailand

[j_mack]

Amway, not Amtrac, but absolutely right you are.

''SCAMWAY'' not Amway as decribed on Oz TV tonight, it on the Rise [nose] again

[richieudon]

You don't get nuffink for nuffink.. when will people learn?

[Brewsta]

"Greed...is on the rise"

Encroyable......such stunning Journalism or is that Yawnalissom? Complete waste of ink.

[thurien]

I think one of the reasons why these sorts of schemes appear to thrive in Thailand is the Thai social structure itself. Family members and 'friends' can easily bring pressure on individuals to invest and the whole loss of 'face' thing comes into play, they just find it very difficult to say no or to change their mind and go back on a 'promise' of cash even if the scheme looks hopelessly dodgy.

absolutely right here; it should be added that this kind of social / family- type / "amongst friends" pressure has been the success also in Western countries: "tupper ware parties", cosmetics marketing, diet products, home fashion shows and the like

[andyptrav]

The largest pyramid schemes that will fail in the next 10 years are western governments. If you expect to live off a government paid pension outside of this period then think again and make alternative plans.

Western politicians will not even acknowledge let alone deal with the problems, they just kick the can and line there own pockets.

In the UK the interest on government borrowings is now over £40 billion a year which is more than the £32 billion we spend on defence - one of the few things any government should be actually engaged in - this is nearly £600 a year for every man woman and child in the country (officially not actually) or more frighteningly nearly £1,200 a year for every taxpayer -- this is just the interest. The debt itself can never be repaid as neither can the pensions, healthcare and other promises made to the current generation be paid by the next generation. They can't pay and they won't. The only way these promises could be paid, now that our birthrate is so low, is vast continuous immigration (assuming these immigrants work, pay tax and also don't bring all their dependent relatives with them - some assumption!), the system is a Ponzi scheme and requires evermore participants.

Other western governments are in similar positions, some better some worse like Greece. Japan also is a fly looking for a windsceen -- massive debt (200% of GDP), falling population but a rising proportion of elderly dependents and no immigration. They have kicked the can to the end of the road.

A few scams here are neither here nor there compared to the above.

[anotherpeter]

With the morals of the government is it a wonder?

Yes ... it's amazing how the morals of the whole country have been affected by a government that have only been there for a year.

What a CHEAP SHOT! What about the morals of the previous administration under Thaksin? You must be one of those Red Shirt morons.

sarcasm !!!

Morals are generally learnt as children. It's not something the people investing in these things are going to pick up in the year that Abhisit has been PM ... or probably not even the 10 years or so that Thaksin has been around. This is ingrained in the Thai phsyche.

[anotherpeter]

Amway, not Amtrac, but absolutely right you are.

''SCAMWAY'' not Amway as decribed on Oz TV tonight, it on the Rise [nose] again

There is nothing wrong with Amway, except that a lot of people don't understand it or can't do it.

I was with Amway for a couple of years, but it wasn't for me because I wasn't a salesman. The products that Amway sell are usually very good quality, but maybe a little on the expensive side. You can make good money selling the products, and you can also make good money recruiting others to use or sell the products. The products were good. The people I sold products to also liked them.

There is no scamming involved.

[gemini81]

i guess the amount of stupid people wanting a quick buck only increases...

when it sounds too good to be true ...

true indeed! watch out for that in terms of naturopathy and homeopathy..had some thai students trying to tell me how i get rich in their pyramid scheme. I asked them how many people are involved..they told me there are 4,000 new trainees at the Chonburi training center. Obviously, how would 4,000 of them get rich overnight. Be wary of this, and buying into any scheme where you have to "buy so much per-month" ...i can see this is the easy path to getting shafted..or paying more than you bargained for. I'll leave the companies' names anonymous..

[SomchaiFuhlang]

With the morals of the government is it a wonder?

What does that mean, care to share your reasons for your statement?

If you don't know the answer to that, you obviously know nothing about Thailand or the Thai government. A better question is: What segment of the Thai government is run with high morals? Hardly a day goes by that you don't hear of some Thai government official getting caught for accepting bribes or involved in some underhanded dealing. Of course, then there's the former Prime Minister tried in absentia for corruption. Besides the big headline grabbing events there are many smaller examples happening all around us. Here are a few:

A buddy was having a devil of a time trying to get his Yellow Book, the standard address confirmation addendum to a Thai homeowner's Blue registration book (tabien bahn). This particular female employee and her boss refused to issue him a Yellow Book after even two months of sending him on wild goose chases all the way from Isaan to Bangkok for translations, etc. He jumped through hoops giving them every additional document they requested each time. It didn't matter as there was always something else he didn't have. Of course, they neglected to mention it before hand. His problem was he didn't offer money under the table. I got my Yellow Book from the next umpher in the same jungwat and it took around three days. And no, I didn't have to bribe the government employees as they were straight up.

Another buddy, a teacher, got a job at a local university and went through complete H*E*L*L trying to get a work permit. The university that hired him didn't help him to get the work permit at all. He ended up making many trips to Bangkok and always never had all the "correct" documents. It took him months, but he finally got it. There was absolutely no excuse for the Thai government employee to jerk him around like he did, over and over and over.

It's also common for some of the few Thais that actually have a driver's license to have bribed the examiner so they wouldn't have to take the required written and driving tests. When I got my Thai license I didn't have an international license and had to sit through the driver's education movie presented in Thai, take two exams, one for the car, the other for the motorbike, then take two driver's tests, one in a car, the other on a motorbike. It was a pain in the ass, but now I'm glad I did it as I learned quite a bit.

Let's see...what do most Thais and "fuhlangs" usually do when pulled by the Thai police for even a tiny infraction? It doesn't matter how outrageous the charge might be you just hand the guy a couple of hundred baht. He sticks it in his pocket and you're on your way.

You didn't ask me, but I felt compelled to answer. Does that clear it up for you, Sparky?

[anon467367354]

All kinds of comments floating around here, I think some people are just uniformed as to the facts. Amway at one time made more millionaires out of people than any other company in the world. Thailand has around 50, or maybe 80 i don't remember Amway stores. Most of the products do come from the US, so i would expect the quality to be better than what one finds at Big C. I do know in the states, one can purchase cars through their Amway distributor license, no dickering, just the best price, salespersons hate it, low profit. Amway rice is a higher grade, organic, and only 91 baht for 2 kilos and no sand. There is nothing wrong with MLM systems other than the fact most people just have no idea how to work them, thus the 98%+ failure rate. MLM's are easier than ever because of the Internet, but you have to be a skilled marketer. As a marketing trainer, and an expert with these types of systems, maybe some would like to learn the difference.

I'm sure money making scams are on the rise in Thailand. More and more people are making money to spend and more and more are getting more desperate, and all those rich people do look like they have the perfect lives. Abhisit did not take Taksin's money, the red shirts will continue to lessen in strength. The point is, easy to trash something one doesn't understand. Don't confuse the scams with the legitimate company's, Pepsi and MCI have both used MLM compensation plans to explode their businesses, good marketing.

[JackSterling]

That is a good point.. I sell "XYZ" and everyone gets all weird about it.. but sell ABC and you are home free??? Get it??

[eastlight]

Amway, not Amtrac, but absolutely right you are.

There's nothing wrong with Amway

[basjke]

All kinds of comments floating around here, I think some people are just uniformed as to the facts. Amway at one time made more millionaires out of people than any other company in the world. Thailand has around 50, or maybe 80 i don't remember Amway stores. Most of the products do come from the US, so i would expect the quality to be better than what one finds at Big C. I do know in the states, one can purchase cars through their Amway distributor license, no dickering, just the best price, salespersons hate it, low profit. Amway rice is a higher grade, organic, and only 91 baht for 2 kilos and no sand.

Maybe a bit of topic but in a previous life,some 30 years ago,i had a business in cleaning products.At one time a Amway sales person visited one of my customers and offered him a product with wich you could clean floors,wash clothes,remove nicotine from walls and ceilings and so much more things.And last but not least it was even drinkable and to prove it he drunk of it in front of my customer..................They have never seen him again

[eastlight]

Amway, not Amtrac, but absolutely right you are.

''SCAMWAY'' not Amway as decribed on Oz TV tonight, it on the Rise [nose] again

There is nothing wrong with Amway, except that a lot of people don't understand it or can't do it.

I was with Amway for a couple of years, but it wasn't for me because I wasn't a salesman. The products that Amway sell are usually very good quality, but maybe a little on the expensive side. You can make good money selling the products, and you can also make good money recruiting others to use or sell the products. The products were good. The people I sold products to also liked them.

There is no scamming involved.

Totally agree - back in the UK I sought out Amway dealers so that I could buy their products.

[AsiaCheese]

What? Consumer protection in Thailand? What do they do -- print brochures & have meetings in fancy resorts??

Not all pyramid schemes are non-businesses. One of them is called AIA (the fat money-producing ex-daughter of AIG). They have a scheme in which agent sell insurances, and at the same time -- in order to climb up the ladder -- have to acquire sub-agents (repeat from there -- endlessly). Agents receive a cut from sub-agents, the classical pyramid principle. But they also have to push, help educate and sponsor them. A certain number of sub-agents practically prevents the agent from acquiring new insurance contracts themselves (also: having exhaustet the greater circle of friends, that gets very difficult). If you don't climb up the ladder quickly enough, you get bashed over the head and moved sideways, which eventually results in no income at all anymore.

There were a lot of "buts" and "ifs" and "whens" in the story I heard from the lady who made some 300k bath in her first active year (wow), but now finds it difficult to even pay the gas for her newly bought car (let's just not mention the monthly payments for the deal on wheels).

Maybe it doesn't qualify for the term pyramid scheme in the strictest sense, but there's no lack of ruthlessness involved...

[pisico]

There's a sucker born every minute!!!

...and two to get him !!!

[Grey11]

The largest pyramid schemes that will fail in the next 10 years are western governments. If you expect to live off a government paid pension outside of this period then think again and make alternative plans.

Western politicians will not even acknowledge let alone deal with the problems, they just kick the can and line there own pockets.

In the UK the interest on government borrowings is now over £40 billion a year which is more than the £32 billion we spend on defence - one of the few things any government should be actually engaged in - this is nearly £600 a year for every man woman and child in the country (officially not actually) or more frighteningly nearly £1,200 a year for every taxpayer -- this is just the interest. The debt itself can never be repaid as neither can the pensions, healthcare and other promises made to the current generation be paid by the next generation. They can't pay and they won't. The only way these promises could be paid, now that our birthrate is so low, is vast continuous immigration (assuming these immigrants work, pay tax and also don't bring all their dependent relatives with them - some assumption!), the system is a Ponzi scheme and requires evermore participants.

Other western governments are in similar positions, some better some worse like Greece. Japan also is a fly looking for a windsceen -- massive debt (200% of GDP), falling population but a rising proportion of elderly dependents and no immigration. They have kicked the can to the end of the road.

A few scams here are neither here nor there compared to the above.

The strength & hope that Japan has is that it is a homogeneous nation composed of people with a common language, culture, heritage,religion, etc. Japan is not overrun by immigrants who speak different languages, have different religions,, and do not assimilate as immigrants in the West tend not to do. The U.S. is fast becoming a Tower of Babel & that weakens a nation. We also see the major problems today in Britain & France b/c of massive immigration.

[eggomaniac]

Are you really asking for your confusion to cleared up? or do you think you've made a 'statement'. Pyramid schemes and companies BOTH have hierarchies, yes, you are correct, if that is what you are saying.

If you are, also, stating the hierarchies are the same, you are greatly mistaken.

Companies know where the water meets the sand; in pyramid schemes the beach goes out, impossibly, forever.

Car salesmen and 7/11 clerks sell products. They do not represent themselves as private owners, as all pyramid schemes do AND they do not try to sell you the NEXT franchise across the street, by which you can become rich by getting everyone else you know to open THEIR own franchises.

They both have 'structures', yes, but the structures are way, way different.

The end result is the that 7/11 clerks, at the bottom of that 'pyramid' earn a salary to pay rent and buy food. Those at the bottom of pyramid SCHEMES, waste their time and lose money they could have used for useful things in their lives. Inherently, by economy of scale, those that get roped into the bottom of the schemes will never make any money, let alone a fortune, or even a decent salary.

All of the top Nabobs of the pyramid scheme industry keep creating new ones, every year. By the time the suckers at the bottom are buying in, they are already launching the latest one.

Unless you have an unepolored planet to market to, don't even think you are going to find enough downliners to get that Emerald ring or reach the Platinum level.

go Mary Kay GO!

Pyramid Schemes

What is it?

Is every Business that sells a product to another, then they sell it and so on, down level after level a Pyramid Scheme ?

No is the simple answer,

In UK BT sell there phone lines direct + sell to other companies that have agents then come knocking + or and advertize, all the different home phone companies, still use the BT phone line..

Insurance Companies here and most places in the world do the same, Kleen-Eze, Amway, Avon, Tupperware... the list is endless

I think lots of people get muddled, I was told years ago that a Person/Company that sells a product is not classed as Pyramid Scheme..

It get confussing, Take Honda, Private people open a garage/Showroom and sell Honda cars, they have people selling cars many on Commission only, when I boubht a new Honda here I was also given a list of what to say to friends and if I got someone to buy a Honda then I would receive 10,000 baht, for each car. It is the same thing is that Pyramid Selling ?

[roietrory]

Has anyone heard of Neolife. Are they a pyramid scheme? The wife seems to think her father is going to me very rich one day because he works for this mob. I am of the opinion he won't be as he has been working for them for 3 years and he still drives a clapped out 10 year old motorcycle.

[Sabre]

"Greed...is on the rise"

I remember one time in Chiang Mai, I was sitting at a bar and this western guy (who I don't know from my next beer) sidles over all chummy like. Talks the normal bar BS to me for half an hour or so then he hits me up with an investment scheme. I started laughing my head off and politley told him to try it on someone else, I'm not interested. Then the prick takes offense because I wouldn't hear him out. I ended up finishing my beer and walking out. What part of 'no I'm not interested' didn't this guy understand.

It is often said that the people you really need to be wary of in Thailand are the long-term sexpat/criminal westerners who are basically willing to do anything to stay rather than face the prospect of going back to their own country and getting a job. The scams are numerous and can range from condo sales in a project that will never be built, to boiler rooms selling shares in companies that do not exist, to wealth 'managers' who simply take your money and run.

An unscrupulous bargirl can clean a guy out if he's stupid enough but even bargirls will give something to the guy in return. It's the rotten westerners who will really clean you out if you are foolish enough to trust them.

[anotherpeter]

Not all pyramid schemes are non-businesses. One of them is called AIA (the fat money-producing ex-daughter of AIG). They have a scheme in which agent sell insurances, and at the same time -- in order to climb up the ladder -- have to acquire sub-agents (repeat from there -- endlessly). Agents receive a cut from sub-agents, the classical pyramid principle. But they also have to push, help educate and sponsor them. A certain number of sub-agents practically prevents the agent from acquiring new insurance contracts themselves (also: having exhaustet the greater circle of friends, that gets very difficult). If you don't climb up the ladder quickly enough, you get bashed over the head and moved sideways, which eventually results in no income at all anymore.

There were a lot of "buts" and "ifs" and "whens" in the story I heard from the lady who made some 300k bath in her first active year (wow), but now finds it difficult to even pay the gas for her newly bought car (let's just not mention the monthly payments for the deal on wheels).

Maybe it doesn't qualify for the term pyramid scheme in the strictest sense, but there's no lack of ruthlessness involved...

An insurance agent sells insurance and makes commissions. If she stops selling insurance because she can't find new clients, that doesn't make it a pyramid scheme. That's called being a sales person.

[meelousee]

they got one? (Office of the Consumer Protection Board)

BS nuff said on that but!

Stupid is as stupid does

[Thai at Heart]

Not all pyramid schemes are non-businesses. One of them is called AIA (the fat money-producing ex-daughter of AIG). They have a scheme in which agent sell insurances, and at the same time -- in order to climb up the ladder -- have to acquire sub-agents (repeat from there -- endlessly). Agents receive a cut from sub-agents, the classical pyramid principle. But they also have to push, help educate and sponsor them. A certain number of sub-agents practically prevents the agent from acquiring new insurance contracts themselves (also: having exhaustet the greater circle of friends, that gets very difficult). If you don't climb up the ladder quickly enough, you get bashed over the head and moved sideways, which eventually results in no income at all anymore.

There were a lot of "buts" and "ifs" and "whens" in the story I heard from the lady who made some 300k bath in her first active year (wow), but now finds it difficult to even pay the gas for her newly bought car (let's just not mention the monthly payments for the deal on wheels).

Maybe it doesn't qualify for the term pyramid scheme in the strictest sense, but there's no lack of ruthlessness involved...

An insurance agent sells insurance and makes commissions. If she stops selling insurance because she can't find new clients, that doesn't make it a pyramid scheme. That's called being a sales person.

But the manager receives a commissioned clip from the sales of their underlings so it is a pyramid in the strictest sense. However, AIA doesn't insist that you purchase product. This is even worse.

Any system that guarantees you a commissioned clip from your direct hires is a pyramid. I would also steer clear of any selling structure that compels you to buy product to be part of the group. Amway, Giffarine, NUlife and many others in Thailand whilst proposing to be MLM are pyramids. They aren't very sophisticated in Thailand and whilst the selling is easy enough to friends and family, it doesn't appear to be extremely heavy handed as it can be in other countries.

Studies have shown that in companies like these, the majority of sales are to new employees or sales people using the products themselves. Anything that uses this type of system is a con.

[Jonathanpattaya]

My wife is selling products made by Mitchell KMC.

Is this also a pyramid scheme?

[thongsuknork]

May be in India Have More Than One Lakh Schemes like this and out of it 99% Fraud

[anotherpeter]

But the manager receives a commissioned clip from the sales of their underlings so it is a pyramid in the strictest sense. However, AIA doesn't insist that you purchase product. This is even worse.

Any system that guarantees you a commissioned clip from your direct hires is a pyramid. I would also steer clear of any selling structure that compels you to buy product to be part of the group. Amway, Giffarine, NUlife and many others in Thailand whilst proposing to be MLM are pyramids. They aren't very sophisticated in Thailand and whilst the selling is easy enough to friends and family, it doesn't appear to be extremely heavy handed as it can be in other countries.

Studies have shown that in companies like these, the majority of sales are to new employees or sales people using the products themselves. Anything that uses this type of system is a con.

EVERY sales company in the world rewards managers for the efforts of thier staff (direct hires). That doesn't make them pyramid schemes.

The fraudulent schemes are the ones where most of the money made is from people paying to join, not from sales commissions.

[geriatrickid]

The life insurance distribution system has always been open to abuse. It is called churning. Agents with some companies could receive commissions at 50-100% of the annual premium in the first year. The commission in the following years would drop to a "service" commission of between 1 and 5%. In year 2 or 3 the agent would return to say, hey I found a better price on the annual premium and convince the client to switch carriers. Reputable life insurers started moved away from these commission formats years ago. Every client has the right to ask his or her commission paid on a policy. The commission can even be declared on the policy application with some carriers. Remember that the life insurance application forms a part of the insurance contract and that there is no coverage until the application is accepted and the premium is paid. If the agent is unwilling to disclose the commission, then seek out an alternative distribution point. An agent that earns his or her commission/fee will not be afraid to disclose compensation and to answer the question.

In respect to these pyramid schemes, I have little sympathy for many of the victims. The return on an investment is commensurate with the risk assumed. It should set off warning bells in any rational person's head when returns of 20%+ are promised in a market where base rates are hovering near 2%. People are indeed motivated by greed. However, there are also those, particularly the elderly that are put into these positions by their children that do not manage the parents money properly. there are also a great many elderly ladies that have to deal with the results of a stupid husband's poor choice of investment. These are the people that need to be protected.

[robertson468]

Pyramid Schemes

What is it?

Is every Business that sells a product to another, then they sell it and so on, down level after level a Pyramid Scheme ?

No is the simple answer,

In UK BT sell there phone lines direct + sell to other companies that have agents then come knocking + or and advertize, all the different home phone companies, still use the BT phone line..

Insurance Companies here and most places in the world do the same, Kleen-Eze, Amway, Avon, Tupperware... the list is endless

I think lots of people get muddled, I was told years ago that a Person/Company that sells a product is not classed as Pyramid Scheme..

It get confussing, Take Honda, Private people open a garage/Showroom and sell Honda cars, they have people selling cars many on Commission only, when I boubht a new Honda here I was also given a list of what to say to friends and if I got someone to buy a Honda then I would receive 10,000 baht, for each car. It is the same thing is that Pyramid Selling ?

Pyramid selling, as I understand it is:

I join the "club" and have to pay - say 10,000 baht, but I am also required to recruit lets say another five members of the "club". I receive say 25% of their 10,000 baht so I have already made 2,500 baht. They in turn are required to recruit five members each to the club and I might receive say 20% of their 10,000 baht giving me a return of 10,000 baht and so on.

The other method you mention is more commonly known as Network Marketing. The Company has one or more products to sell. I join the Company, but to become accredited I need to sell say 50,000 baht of product. I am then allowed to develop my own Team or Teams as a result of which I manage them and receive a % of their sales. Likewise they need to sell say 50,000 baht of products and then can also be authorised to set up their own Team or Teams. Your Team Members are often called "Down Liners", because they are directly descendant from my management line and likewise, their Teams become their "Down Liners". As I am further up the chain of management, I am termed as an "Up Liner". As before, I receive a descending % of the "Down Liners" sales and the further removed they are from me, the less % I receive. Some of the better Companies get the "Up Liners" to hold teach-ins to both teach their people about the products, sales techniques, how to place orders and the Company administration system etc. Some also have some very catching incentive schemes like if you achieve a certain level they will lease hire something like a Mercedes SLK and on up to Porche 911/Massaratis etc. In a Country like Thailand which is overtly status orientated (face), this as you can imagine is highly popular. You effectively end up running your own direct sale business. You end up working as much or as little as you want with the financial rewards depending on your direct input. A few of the Net Work Marketers are earning incredible sums of money and you can effectively stop working and still be receiving an income because your "Down Liners" are still working. An interesting concept, but unfortunately has been tied in with the Pyramid Sales label.

Hope that helps?

[selftaopath]

"Greed...is on the rise"

My exact thought. I guess I am just so naive b/c I thought it could "barely" get much higher in LOS(Land of Scams). Guess I was wrong. Oh my FACE!!!!! lololooll

[thaiedward]

"Greed...is on the rise"

I remember one time in Chiang Mai, I was sitting at a bar and this western guy (who I don't know from my next beer) sidles over all chummy like. Talks the normal bar BS to me for half an hour or so then he hits me up with an investment scheme. I started laughing my head off and politley told him to try it on someone else, I'm not interested. Then the prick takes offense because I wouldn't hear him out. I ended up finishing my beer and walking out. What part of 'no I'm not interested' didn't this guy understand.

The same part the touts at the end of my street don't understand when I tell them I don't want a sexy lady or a massage even though I have been saying no to them every day, multiple times a day, for several years.

In many forms of sales your job is to keep asking until they hang up on you (or walk away) - because some small % of people will change their mind if they keep pressing.

I hear that. I once took a tuktuk to see what CM Muy Thai had to offer, but was taken to not one, but two brothels in a row against my wishes.

Some would try to sell tap shoes to dead men if they somehow believe they can turn a profit. Both greed and slavery seem to share a rise around the world. O my brothers.