20,000 Monks Tipped To Join Red-shirt Rally On March 12

[rixalex]

Abhisit telling monks to basically stay at home and denying them to express their opinion is just another example of Thailand's already shattered human rights record.

Firstly, it wasn't Abhisit, and secondly, what would a Thaksin apologist care about human rights?

[rainman]

Abhisit telling monks to basically stay at home and denying them to express their opinion is just another example of Thailand's already shattered human rights record.

Firstly, it wasn't Abhisit, and secondly, what would a Thaksin apologist care about human rights?

His human rights record was better than Abhisit's. Not perfect, but better. And if you don't like to hear that, go talk to the Human Rights Watch.

[way2muchcoffee]

Wow!! what what an amazing Buddist Bashing thread.

No facts just bashing!! keep it up guys and you will be in for a medal for sure.

Very surprised the mods have let go 8 pages may be orders from above?

Care to state what is stated that you think is not fact?

[geriatrickid]

What are you talking about? Monks cannot vote. Monks cannot hold office. Monks cannot work for money. Monks cannot drink or fornicate. Monks cannot do a great many things. Monks, by definition and the vows they take, are apolitical. Any monk participating in a political demonstration will be violating the principles he has sworn to uphold.

Monks can and do many of the things you have referenced. The appropriate words were should not and may not. Marching monks are to be expected when there is no separation between "religion" and state.

As inappropriate as it may seem, the presence of the monks may serve to keep things calmer. Although it did not stop the Burmese generals from shooting at the masses, I hope in this case the monks' presence will cause the military to think before firing upon the people and will cause marchers to refrain from violence. One cannot really stop the monks from marching because it is part of their mandate to help maintain peace and the monks are of the people and the people are the nation.

If the legion of the shaved heads show for the march it will certainly make for some very nervous government and military officials. It will certainly attract international media attention. If any monk is attacked, images of the attack will spread across the internet and paint a very negative image for the nation.

I wish PM Abhisit and his government luck in walking this tightrope.

[eggomaniac]

The idea of a pro democracy movement led by un-democratic Thaksin just doesn't add up.

Well, let's be honest here for a second. Thaksin was democratically elected as the Prime Minister of Thailand. He was then ousted by a military coup. The same military regime that currently backs the Democrats. Now, the Thai people have never directly elected the Democrats. Let's see when (or better said, if) the next election comes, what the Thai people will choose. The Democrats? Or another pro-Thaksin government? And don't even start about vote-buying, because pro-Thaksin parties, as well as Democrats and ship-jumping Newin were all convicted of vote-buying.

Did Thaksin illegally take money for himself while he served as PM? Sure. As did Bush, Blair and pretty much every other head of state. It's how politics works. Everyone that can't see this is either an idiot or living in denial. That's the truth.

Here we go again...

The truth is, Thaksin was not even Prime Minister when the coup happened. He had in fact even handed over his "Caretaker PM" role.

For someone who has been contributing to this site since 2004, surely you know that ?

This trivial bit of history changes everything? Yes, Rainman, more correctly, should have said. 'He was ousted by the military elite. The big picture remains the same, even if the time line is not accurately depicted. First, he was pushed to resign, at that point he was democratically elected. The coup was to thwart his plans to run in reelections, because they knew he would be democratically reelected.

I'm not a fan of Thaksin OR his old pal Sondhi, but I don't understand what picture you are painting.

Are you implying that Thaksin had happily left office? Are you deducting the coup had nothing to do with his political aspirations? If this is not your concept, you are SPLIITTING HAIRS. You arguing it was not bull poop, that it was cow poop. What is the difference?

So in the future, when somone says Thaksin was pushed out, let's all realise it refers to that he pushed then barred. It boils down to same cup of soup.

He was democratically elected when these events transpired, just as there are, PRESENTLY, 111 democratically elected members who are 'banned' from representing the people who elected them. The elections, with some bribery and skullduggery, on all sides, were still recognized as fair elections by foreign auditors.

Connect these dots. Ban 111 elected members. Resentment, protests and violence. 27 countries create travel warnings, not advisories, about visiting Thailand. [levels 1 to 3, on a scale whereby 5 is a ban]

If you Reply with, 'Are you saying the actions of the Military elite, in the way they are dealing with the red movement, has led to travel warnings?' my answer is 'duh' YES

Edited March 6, 2010 by eggomaniac

[animatic]

Abhisit telling monks to basically stay at home and denying them to express their opinion is just another example of Thailand's already shattered human rights record.

Firstly, it wasn't Abhisit, and secondly, what would a Thaksin apologist care about human rights?

His human rights record was better than Abhisit's. Not perfect, but better. And if you don't like to hear that, go talk to the Human Rights Watch.

Not sure how or where you got this idea from HRW,

but what I read was quite different than your interpretation.

If you didn't get it first hand don't believe it.

Way too much propaganda floating around.

[ozzieal]

The numbers being thrown out for this upcoming wannabe national disruption is a small % of the total population of Thailand and the monk participation when compared to total is even less. Come, bleed or blister comes to mind as far as the red shirt innuendo/threats recently, and the answer will be apparent over the next few days.

you, my friend, do not have a clue!!!!!!!!!!

[Richard W]

This speaks more to Thailand making an attempt at allowing some Muslim autonomy.

Under Islam both these men are allowed 6 wives, if they can afford them.

But even a VERY hi so non-Muslim Thai would not meet legal approval marrying the Mia noi these days.

I thought it was 4?

a) 4 is indeed the concurrent limit.

Moslems are required to treat their wives equally, so after marriage there can be no mia luang/mia noi distinctions.

[Insight]

The numbers being thrown out for this upcoming wannabe national disruption is a small % of the total population of Thailand and the monk participation when compared to total is even less. Come, bleed or blister comes to mind as far as the red shirt innuendo/threats recently, and the answer will be apparent over the next few days.

you, my friend, do not have a clue!!!!!!!!!!

I think he does... What makes you believe otherwise?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Funny to see all the anti monk comments suddenly. It's not even the first time monks join in political rallies, Chamlongs anti-alcohol / anti-ThaiBev actions come to mind. Didn't seem to bother anyone then did it?

[eggomaniac]

Abhisit telling monks to basically stay at home and denying them to express their opinion is just another example of Thailand's already shattered human rights record.

Firstly, it wasn't Abhisit, and secondly, what would a Thaksin apologist care about human rights?

His human rights record was better than Abhisit's. Not perfect, but better. And if you don't like to hear that, go talk to the Human Rights Watch.

Why does it always get clouded with, "Mommy he did it too!"?

Are you saying it's okay for the present government to stifle freedom expression by the monks, because a previous government had warts to? Why can't you just stick to the Topic?

It is already well known and a matter of historical that Thaksin jailed innocent political activists from the south and his over the top search and seizure tactics reslulted in 1000's of death, many who were innocent bystanders and none who got to court to see if their sentence would be the death penalty.

>>> Leaving that aside, forgetting to falsely imagine it has anything to do with this Topic, can you answer, simply, but not simple mindedly; is the present government attempting to stifle free speech? If so, should they?

[in true Democracy honorable people disagree honorably.]

If you don't agree with the monks message, say so and what points. Don't imply, as you have, that the government can crush dissent, because a previous government did.

Don't you want the Yellows to be 'better' than the Reds, especially when the latest Mission Statement of the Yellows is that will lead Thailand to peace by being the 'educators'. [sic indoctrinators]

[Jingthing]

it's a significant development, if the monks do join in the rally. They migh tip off the change not by numbers, but by giving a moral support to the cause.

Also, it's harder for the army to shoot at monks as opposed to other protesters, like they did during Black Songkran. Monks might help to keep things peaceful (on both sides), and keep people alive.

Another classic item of revisionist history brought to us by the good people of Truth Today. Oy vey, and he says he ain't a red!

It may indeed be a red shirt tactic to CREATE an incident where monks get hurt to incite public support for their side. A similar thing is done by terrorists in the middle east by centering military operations among civilians and mosques.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Jingthing

[dude007]

The numbers being thrown out for this upcoming wannabe national disruption is a small % of the total population of Thailand and the monk participation when compared to total is even less. Come, bleed or blister comes to mind as far as the red shirt innuendo/threats recently, and the answer will be apparent over the next few days.

May this be the Thai French Revolution by which total split of church and state was obtained and repected throughout the centuries.

Monks are taking this opportunity to manifest themselves in a very wrong way. They are chosing side, so they are not impartial anymore.... They should stay in their monastries or take off their scarlet clothes and join the stupid uneducated red shirts who's only aim is to bring back in this country a thief and a convicted criminal...

Monks in Thailand have a suspicious history already. They are known to harbour criminals, sought by police who turn, desperately avoiding arrest from the police, into the monkhood. Killer monks or gambling monks haven't been a rarity in the past! This way, they fit perfectly amongst the red shirts... They will now be the "red monks"!

[Scott]

I have deleted a number of posts, actually a large number of posts, which are particularly critical and defamatory about monks.

I will go through this thread carefully and warnings will be issued. Given the direction that the thread has taken a few posters will likely not be returning.

I suggest you stay on-topic, stay away from defamatory remarks and insulting Buddhism--even a particular sect.

[WeeGB]

I have deleted a number of posts, actually a large number of posts, which are particularly critical and defamatory about monks.

I will go through this thread carefully and warnings will be issued. Given the direction that the thread has taken a few posters will likely not be returning.

I suggest you stay on-topic, stay away from defamatory remarks and insulting Buddhism--even a particular sect.

Thank you Scott.

We are guests in this country. We should respect it's chosen religion(s), and those who practice it.

[animatic]

Also, it's harder for the army to shoot at monks as opposed to other protesters, like they did during Black Songkran. Monks might help to keep things peaceful (on both sides), and keep people alive.

Another classic item of revisionist history brought to us by the good people of Truth Today. Oy vey, and he says he ain't a red!

It may indeed be a red shirt tactic to CREATE an incident where monks get hurt to incite public support for their side. A similar thing is done by terrorists in the middle east by centering military operations among civilians and mosques.

I concur on all of Jings points.

[johncitizen]

May I remind you that TOXIN killed 2,500 innocent people (the war against drugs) and never was convicted for a single crime?

May I remind you that TAKSIN killed 0,000 people, and the army officers who actually did the killing were promoted for their efforts after the coup? If there is anything Taksin was guilty of, it was giving the bloodthirsty masses what they wanted, and not doing enough to root out the hardline cold-war dinosaurs from the military.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Also, it's harder for the army to shoot at monks as opposed to other protesters, like they did during Black Songkran. Monks might help to keep things peaceful (on both sides), and keep people alive.

Another classic item of revisionist history brought to us by the good people of Truth Today. Oy vey, and he says he ain't a red!

It may indeed be a red shirt tactic to CREATE an incident where monks get hurt to incite public support for their side. A similar thing is done by terrorists in the middle east by centering military operations among civilians and mosques.

I concur on all of Jings points.

Seriously? Again it's an allegation that's not based on anything other than an assumption based on a pre-existing mindset. I strongly suspect it goes something like this:

"Terrorists in the Middle East are evil and do X. I think the Reds are evil. Therefore the Reds are likely to do X, beware!".

I'm personally getting to the point of skipping through those posts because there's just no meat in there, just conjecture.

[VegasVic]

this doesn't sound like it's for real, since when do monks assist in disruptive behavior related to politics? I would think they would be completely detached from that kind of thing.

From what I gather this is a legitimate protest against a non elected PM, unlike the truely disruptive behavior by the yellow shirts in closing down the airport by force I say more power to the monks, let them and the people from the countryside converge on BKK and walk through the road blocks and let their voice be heard, if the military decides to fire on the citizens then the blood will be on Abhisit's hands!!!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

This trivial bit of history changes everything? Yes, Rainman, more correctly, should have said. 'He was ousted by the military elite. The big picture remains the same, even if the time line is not accurately depicted. First, he was pushed to resign, at that point he was democratically elected. The coup was to thwart his plans to run in reelections, because they knew he would be democratically reelected.

I'm not a fan of Thaksin OR his old pal Sondhi, but I don't understand what picture you are painting.

Are you implying that Thaksin had happily left office? Are you deducting the coup had nothing to do with his political aspirations? If this is not your concept, you are SPLIITTING HAIRS. You arguing it was not bull poop, that it was cow poop. What is the difference?

So in the future, when somone says Thaksin was pushed out, let's all realise it refers to that he pushed then barred. It boils down to same cup of soup.

He was democratically elected when these events transpired, just as there are, PRESENTLY, 111 democratically elected members who are 'banned' from representing the people who elected them. The elections, with some bribery and skullduggery, on all sides, were still recognized as fair elections by foreign auditors.

Connect these dots. Ban 111 elected members. Resentment, protests and violence. 27 countries create travel warnings, not advisories, about visiting Thailand. [levels 1 to 3, on a scale whereby 5 is a ban]

If you Reply with, 'Are you saying the actions of the Military elite, in the way they are dealing with the red movement, has led to travel warnings?' my answer is 'duh' YES

Great post!! All it does is make the bickering more excruciating; surely most of us can agree at least on some of the basics.

[VegasVic]

Wow!! what what an amazing Buddist Bashing thread.

No facts just bashing!! keep it up guys and you will be in for a medal for sure.

Very surprised the mods have let go 8 pages may be orders from above?

After reading a good portion of this thread I totally agree! It appears that the Chinese-Thai elites are serious threatened by the monks joining the protest The Buddist bashing on this thread is way beyond the pale and utterly disgusting!

[rfukata]

it's a significant development, if the monks do join in the rally. They migh tip off the change not by numbers, but by giving a moral support to the cause.

If the deputy PM is warning monks against participation, means that temples are really planning to be in Bangkok and warnings, like those, will make them even more determined to show their will.

Many people have questioned whether or not it is feasible to feed and house such a large crowd but if you look at the map of Bangkok you will see that there must be up to a hundred Wats (just to the west) across across the river - all of which are within easy reach of Phra Pink Klao bridge.

good observation and perhaps a brilliant strategy implemented by the organizer.

[Netfan]

Also, it's harder for the army to shoot at monks as opposed to other protesters, like they did during Black Songkran. Monks might help to keep things peaceful (on both sides), and keep people alive.

Another classic item of revisionist history brought to us by the good people of Truth Today. Oy vey, and he says he ain't a red!

It may indeed be a red shirt tactic to CREATE an incident where monks get hurt to incite public support for their side. A similar thing is done by terrorists in the middle east by centering military operations among civilians and mosques.

I concur on all of Jings points.

Seriously? Again it's an allegation that's not based on anything other than an assumption based on a pre-existing mindset. I strongly suspect it goes something like this:

"Terrorists in the Middle East are evil and do X. I think the Reds are evil. Therefore the Reds are likely to do X, beware!".

I'm personally getting to the point of skipping through those posts because there's just no meat in there, just conjecture.

What evidence is there that the army fired anything but blanks at the red arsonists, brick throwers and drunks on Black Songkran? What video? What credible eyewitnesses- someone from major news organization? I was down on the corner of Rajaparap and Rang Nam and what I saw was soldiers firing blanks to stop the red idiots from sending burning buses into petrol stations and throwing bricks at fireman.

What is to stop the reds from doing the same again?

Edited March 6, 2010 by Netfan

[blazes]

HS Mauberley

If true, good news. It would, after all, be nice to see the sangha providing a little moral support for the people, rather than providing such extraordinary levels of legitimacy to the existing - and deeply undemocratic - power structures.

Footloose1949

I don't know much about the political history of Thailand, but if the present and successive governments took on board and delivered on some of the issues that Thaksin said he would address, regarding the inequalities in income between people in the North and North-East, and the perceived much larger incomes of those living in the Cities, I suspect a fair number of Red-Shirts would feel their grievances are being sorted out, and not attend rallies. However, this view of mine may be just too simple a solution to the underlying problem in Thailand

jesimps

C'mon pal admit it, you're about as neutral as a referee at Old Trafford! The same with the rest of you "I'm neither red nor yellow, but I think that Thaksin is a $&+@" etc etc. Thais understand their brand of politics so let them get on with it, they wouldn't thank us farang for our naive comments.

HS Mauberley

QUOTE

Sangha is not allowed to take sides. They are neutral.

If you watch any of the propaganda shows - nightly around 8 pm - you'll see that the sangha is very much involved in the maintenance of the existing state powers.

fredcyber

What is undeniable is that there are huge imbalances in Thai society and whether it is this time or another time there will be civil war unless something is done to address the real underlying issues.

At the moment I see nothing other than a determination by those in power to maintain the status quo.

In the long run this is not a viable strategy.

I have read to the end of Page 8, and apart from the excellent quotations above, I see no one trying to address issues of life in Thailand that are obvious to those who have eyes to see, whether Thai or farang. Namely, the actual distribution of wealth in this country. I don't know the exact figures, but I am guessing that less than 10% of the population own at least 80% of the wealth. A situation ripe for revolution, as Mao, Castro and many others demonstrated in the last 100 years.

To focus so much attention on Thaksin is ludicrous. It is like saying he is "the axis of Evil" and no further discussion is needed. It is very convenient for the ruling class to have the voters (erm, if they are allowed to vote) have their attention deflected from the biggest issue of all, the gap between the rich and the vast masses of poor, and have them, instead, focus on a peripheral figure like Thaksin. It is an insult to those Reds who sincerely want to change this country in the most radical form. (Get rid of Thaksin, and you still have the problems that brought him to power in the first place.)

There are too many smart alecky comments on this thread from people who seem blind to their own privileged position (as farangs) in this society of enormous contradictions.

There's none so blind as those who cannot see.

[Netfan]

Blazes- please outline the programs the Reds have proposed to close this imbalance that so troubles everyone. What are their plans for education? Health care? Increasing minimum wage? Dealing with China cutting off the Mekong River? Farm subsidies? Please enlighten us. And again, I want a report from the one who tells Chalerm and his family you are going to re-distribute his wealth.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Netfan

[Jingthing]

Yes the reds seem almost completely about toppling the current government (and obviously wanting to bring back Thaksin, there is no use in denying it). Aside from a belief in "democracy" (led by a leader who actually doesn't like democracy) to be achieved by their mob, their actual, specific IDEOLOGY is extremely difficult to know about. It really doesn't seem to be ideologically based at all. Its very NEGATIVE and very focused on power rather than ideals. So power to the poor, we all got that, what exactly does that mean? Free trucks for everyone? Payed for how? We all know Thaksin is a populist. Is this underlying red movement actually communist? Parts of this current movement do remind me of the Maoist cultural revolution which was of course totally tragic. What I am getting at here, is that people who support the reds should really be careful about getting what they wish for. For while the Abhisit regime isn't great, you know what it is. Do you know what you will get if the red mob takes power? I reckon things will be MUCH WORSE.

The red propaganda suggests that people should NOT be afraid of the red shirts. I suggest the exact opposite. Imagine that they do take power by their mob. Be afraid.

I say this as a left wing, progressive politics person. However, history has shown us that EXTREMES on the left or the right almost always result in massive suffering and often mass murders for nations. I do fear this red shirt movement is a case of an extreme movement. I hope I am wrong if they win, which of course, they might.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Jingthing

[animatic]

And I quote a friend.

The FACT is, the supposed 20,000 monks in this news article actually come from a very controversial

and well documented Thaksin-loyal sect who do NOT portray the entire monkhood in Thailand,

or anywhere else (thank goodness).

As I have nicely noted before, essentially there are sects and there are sects.

Most all are true to the proper precepts of their calling.

A few might, by some, not be consider as purist.

Just as Tibetan, Indian and Thai versions diverge.

17,000+ wats and each filled with actual HUMAN BEINGS

with the usual distributions of concurrent failings and weakness

inherent in man as a species. No doubt most all are trying to

rise above such worldly issues, some not doing as well as others, maybe.

Can the Reds find 20,000? Not illogical. Would those 20,000 be true to

the basic precept of their vows by joining a rally to bring down the government,

many might say; no they wouldn't be. Is this comment disrespectful? No.

Edited March 6, 2010 by animatic

[blazes]

Blazes- please outline the programs the Reds have proposed to close this imbalance that so troubles everyone. What are their plans for education? Health care? Increasing minimum wage? Dealing with China cutting off the Mekong River? Farm subsidies? Please enlighten us. And again, I want a report from the one who tells Chalerm and his family you are going to re-distribute his wealth.

I don't know...you tell me...after you have neatly side-stepped the main issue: is there a case for "revolution" (however defined...if only to define it as "radical" , that is, a root and branch change in the way this 'democracy" works).

Or should I assume, from your list of questions, that you are in favour (I hope so) of radical changes (for the better, however defined) to education, health care, minimum wage, Foreign relations, farm subsidies, and last but most important, the re-distribution of wealth?

[animatic]

Blazes- please outline the programs the Reds have proposed to close this imbalance that so troubles everyone. What are their plans for education? Health care? Increasing minimum wage? Dealing with China cutting off the Mekong River? Farm subsidies? Please enlighten us. And again, I want a report from the one who tells Chalerm and his family you are going to re-distribute his wealth.

I don't know...you tell me...after you have neatly side-stepped the main issue: is there a case for "revolution" (however defined...if only to define it as "radical" , that is, a root and branch change in the way this 'democracy" works).

Or should I assume, from your list of questions, that you are in favour (I hope so) of radical changes (for the better, however defined) to education, health care, minimum wage, Foreign relations, farm subsidies, and last but most important, the re-distribution of wealth?

I'll let Jingthings answer ride

However, history has shown us that EXTREMES on the left or the right almost always

result in massive suffering and often mass murders for nations.

So I really can NOT see that there IS ever a case for revolution in this day and age.

Because as an alleged 'amelioration for the suffering masses',

it is much more like throwing gasoline in your fireplace at home

with the doors locked from the outside.

A proven bad thing to do.

Radical change, also mostly brings radical social dislocations for the poor.

Why not change 'Redistribution of Wealth',

which also has a bad history of effectiveness,

to

'Redistribution of Profits' and

'increased access to profit making opportunities for all'.

Edited March 6, 2010 by animatic

[blazes]

Yes the reds seem almost completely about toppling the current government (and obviously wanting to bring back Thaksin, there is no use in denying it). Aside from a belief in "democracy" (led by a leader who actually doesn't like democracy) to be achieved by their mob, their actual, specific IDEOLOGY is extremely difficult to know about. It really doesn't seem to be ideologically based at all. Its very NEGATIVE and very focused on power rather than ideals. So power to the poor, we all got that, what exactly does that mean? Free trucks for everyone? Payed for how? We all know Thaksin is a populist. Is this underlying red movement actually communist? Parts of this current movement do remind me of the Maoist cultural revolution which was of course totally tragic. What I am getting at here, is that people who support the reds should really be careful about getting what they wish for. For while the Abhisit regime isn't great, you know what it is. Do you know what you will get if the red mob takes power? I reckon things will be MUCH WORSE.

The red propaganda suggests that people should NOT be afraid of the red shirts. I suggest the exact opposite. Imagine that they do take power by their mob. Be afraid.

I say this as a left wing, progressive politics person. However, history has shown us that EXTREMES on the left or the right almost always result in massive suffering and often mass murders for nations. I do fear this red shirt movement is a case of an extreme movement. I hope I am wrong if they win, which of course, they might.

I like this reply, but it does seem pessimistic...post-colonial "revolutions" in the British Empire went several different ways...usually disastrously in Africa, but on the whole healthily in India & Malaya. The Vietnamese kicked out the French and then had to deal with the Yanks, but I imagine your average Vietnamese is today quite happy with the way things are going. Could the Thailand Reds take us the Burmese way? Doubtful...Thailand is too advanced industrially to regress like that. As for Mao, I doubt the present Chinese middle class would be able to enjoy their growing affluence if there had not first been a Maoist revolution, even if that was disastrous for many in the early days.

There is hope...if only Netfan will enlighten us as to the "programme" of the Reds.