Land Titles Por Tor Bor 5

[slapout]

Check past topic in the farming section for some good comments, definitions, laws, etc on various land papers/use/owership etc.

Lawyers who specialize in 'Thai land law' would be a welcome change to most lawyers who seem to specialize in separating the customer from his/her money. Wonder if they give a money back guarantee if the land use/possession goes to he.. after a few months/years?

[steelepulse]

If you're looking at cheap land in the middle of no where, why not pony up the money and buy chanote land? Land is still dirt cheap in Nakon Nowhere for a properly titled chanote.

By your logic, if someone commits crimes and doesn't get caught, does that mean if you commit a crime you won't get caught either. The monkey see, monkey do logic of "others have done so successfully for years, so why can't I" isn't a very sound position to be debating from IMO when you know what the law says. As others say, it's your cash, go ahead and blow it.

[MrWiggle]

If you live in thailand, why not follow the thai way if it works and it seems to be working out ok for tens of thousands.

Yes, my wife has land for sale on the riverfront, what is the referance for ? She has NS3 and NS4 land.

Thanks Bina for the most relevant reply.

I am not sure Lioness is replying to the title deeds I am talking about as the things she/he says are fact, are in not fact for PTB5 land...except for transfers being allowed.

as for getting on a bike drunk, no I would not. But the purchase of PTB5 land is not a life or death gamble either, so exagerated comments are just.....well stupid really.

[Somrak]

Thai people routinely trade these papers and get the names changed on them.

Thats right, thai people do and I have heard this many times across many fields. It would be another thai person trading this land again if we take it up. What I would like to hear is from someone that has done it and knows of it from first hand, not the farng experts speaking of doom gloom and hearsay, or at least someone with something sensible to say like this.

But only inside the family.!

Everthing else worth nothing.

[MrWiggle]

Not only inside the family.

And t=with the PTB5 title, there apparently is no name change on any said document. It is simply an exchange of agreement, receipts and the new receipts paid for by the new possessor.

Not sure on this, but how I understand it anyway.

[katabeachbum]

Not only inside the family.

And t=with the PTB5 title, there apparently is no name change on any said document. It is simply an exchange of agreement, receipts and the new receipts paid for by the new possessor.

Not sure on this, but how I understand it anyway.

Only land deeds registered in land office can provide any kind of security for farang. NS3G and Chanote

[getgoin]

Thai people routinely trade these papers and get the names changed on them.

Thats right, thai people do and I have heard this many times across many fields. It would be another thai person trading this land again if we take it up. What I would like to hear is from someone that has done it and knows of it from first hand, not the farng experts speaking of doom gloom and hearsay, or at least someone with something sensible to say like this.

Foreigners are afraid of this type of paper and they should be. Anyone with an unstable relationship should not even think about it. It is impossible to leverage and very difficult to sell and can only be developed to a certain degree. Never believe anyone who says that the land has to be purely agricultural. You can build a home on it.

My wife has a piece of land with Sor Por Kor. It has been owned by one person or another for generations with no paper at all. There have been numerous homes build on it including an old teak shack that overlooks the ravine that used to be farmed. When they were issuing the Sor Por Kor one of the old owners wanted to have some paper, any paper and so they had them issue a Sor Por Kor. This land did not qualify as Sor Por Kor land because it was not and had never been owned by the government or the forestry department.

We have been quoted ridiculous prices for getting the Sor Por Kor changed into my wife's family name by numerous attorneys. Meanwhile the nice ladies who work in the tax office had always told my wife that it would be easy to change the name. My brother in law who is the caretaker married a local woman in the village. Her brother handles all these types of transfers all the time. Even the village headman told my wife at one point to go into the Forestry Land Office and tell them that she was the sister of the old owner and with the paper from him she could get the name changed.

There's probably just as many horror stories out there, maybe more.

Edited March 18, 2010 by getgoin

[rgs2001uk]

rgs2001uk

of course you have all the answers. I got my answers and options working through lawyers specialising in Thai land law, others could do the same.

I just get a bit frustrated by people who can't see the wood for the trees.

lioness,

no I dont have all the answers, and am smart enough to know I dont.

I tend not to get frustrated these days by people getting into a legal nightmare over land.

There was a post the other week from some poor sod whose own mother in law was ripping him off, I dare say with due diligence he would never have found himself in the position he now is.

I also recall the panic and terror running amok on some forums from posters voicing concerns over owning property in a company name.

Others trying to work out legal loopholes such as 30+30+30 year leases, and so the list goes on.

One thing I have learned over the years is, when the music stops in the musical chairs land gamble, its usually the farang who is out of pocket.

You will never read of me complaining on here about being ripped off in land deals in Thailand, because I will never invest here, if you think I am paranoid, the wife is even more paranoid than I, she was ripped off by her own family, but thats another story.

It baffles me as to why farang would entrust their money and rights on the say so of some girl with no more than a second rate education, no worry, Thai way na ka.

At the end of the day, let Thais invest their own money, it is after all their country, if someone takes up with some girl who doesnt have to red cents to rub together thats not my problem, again goes back to not carrying out due diligence.

I am not interested in seeing the wood for the trees, my investments are outside Thailand, and I sleep easy in my bed at night knowing that to be the case.

I wonder what answers, options and opinions the lawyers you consult whould have on the following,

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/...d-30120776.html

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion...-a-gordian-knot

http://towardfreedom.com/home/content/view/1811/106/

http://siamreport2.blogspot.com/2010/02/ja...ry-natural.html

Funnily enough I see Khao Soi Dao mentioned in at least one article, I know this area is an up and coming area just to the north of Chanthaburi, hope no farang are caught with their pants down.

I also note the prominent Thai I mentioned in an earlier post is mentioned, may have had the wrong surname?

It would appear even the Thais themselves dont have the answers, so I would be delighted to know how your legal friends are able to steer you in the right direction, when at the end of the day they are only offering an opinion of their understanding of the law.

I also read the Koh Chang fiasco has been going on since at least the early '70s if not earlier.

Each to their own, good luck to yourself and all others who choose to venture into property deals in the LOS.

[RAZZELL]

Each to their own, good luck to yourself and all others who choose to venture into property deals in the LOS.

Top post

RAZZ

[MrWiggle]

Good post RGS...shame Razz does not have the same common sense.

Everyone is different, different goals, different risk tollerance, different objectives in Los and so each and every situation will not be the same for all.

[MrWiggle]

I found this interesting in one of the articles...

'the government could see more and angrier protests if it is to apply the same legal standard without taking into account the physical changes already taking place on such lands across the country.'

[RAZZELL]

Good post RGS...shame Razz does not have the same common sense.

Everyone is different, different goals, different risk tollerance, different objectives in Los and so each and every situation will not be the same for all.

Mmm..You were the one 'stereotyping" me as some bitter, bar stool philosopher

One minute we don't know what we're talking about...the next....?

I assure you I've got plenty of common sense. That's why I wouldn't invest any substantial amount in this type of land. If it was peanuts...well what the hel_l.

Do what you want. It's your money. But it ain't and never will legally be "your" land

RAZZ

P.S. Plenty have got caught this way by Thai's...."I know someone in the land office...we can get it upgraded...blah blah blah"...If you want to buy fake landpapers etc "Up to You" ...Read the horror stories in Samui, Koh Chang, Phuket.

IF for whatever reason you just want to "buy" a "field" in the middle. Fine.

Edited March 19, 2010 by RAZZELL

[Gary A]

Thousands of farangs "own" houses through bogus companies. I can't see a lot of difference between these companies and untitled land. Go for it. I wouldn't because I like to sleep well at night. Waiting for some Thai politician to decide to enforce the law would make me VERY nervous. Who knows? The law my never be enforced. Up to you if you feel like gambling.

[katabeachbum]

Thousands of farangs "own" houses through bogus companies. I can't see a lot of difference between these companies and untitled land. Go for it. I wouldn't because I like to sleep well at night. Waiting for some Thai politician to decide to enforce the law would make me VERY nervous. Who knows? The law my never be enforced. Up to you if you feel like gambling.

on untitled land farang can not have lease, usufruct, loan or any other controlling rights registered. On NS3G and Chanote such lifetime or only 60 or 30 years protection can be registered in land deed. such registration provides ownership of house on said land. makes me sleep well at night

[MrWiggle]

. But it ain't and never will legally be "your" land

RAZZ

What land in this country ever is ??

But some can do it with somewhat more confidence than others. Some make a life here and are content, others just drink it away and cannot do anything because they are so worried that they cannot sleep at night. You seem to be the later.

[oracle]

. But it ain't and never will legally be "your" land

RAZZ

What land in this country ever is ??

But some can do it with somewhat more confidence than others. Some make a life here and are content, others just drink it away and cannot do anything because they are so worried that they cannot sleep at night. You seem to be the later.

What does your last comments have to do with it?

It is simple: foreigners have absolutely no rights to this type of land and for Thais it does not offer any rights of possession, it does not offer confirmed right of possession and it does not offer ownership. They have a right of use the land from the government for very limited purposes and not guaranteed over time. It is a tax payment for use, similar to the rights you get when you put a coin in a parking meter.

In rural farming communities the use of this type land is different and it is common practice for farmers to build a house on it and even get electricity connected and transfer the use to others. Not in developed areas or tourist areas. What you build will be removed.

Scamming foreigner with this type of land is very common as they are ignorant and sensitive for the arguments you made pro buying this land. The idea of making a huge profit by upgrading is very tempting for some foreigners, some believe what they are told and they ALL lose all their money. I know a local or bor tor who made a fortune with upgrading, but I only know foreigners who lost a fortune with it. Foreigners buyers of this land get screwed 100% and sometimes with involvement of local officials or even a Thai spouse. Pay today and you make 10 times more tomorrow after the upgrade. Suckers.

Trust your Thai spouse? Sure why not, if I would have one I would maybe buy such land for her family, with nothing in return. On the other hand I also see Thai spouses coming back asking for commission when a deal is closed, as they make or break a deal

[RAZZELL]

. But it ain't and never will legally be "your" land

RAZZ

What land in this country ever is ??

But some can do it with somewhat more confidence than others. Some make a life here and are content, others just drink it away and cannot do anything because they are so worried that they cannot sleep at night. You seem to be the later.

What does your last comments have to do with it?

Exactly

The OP's a know-nothing-know-it-all...

RAZZ

Edited March 22, 2010 by RAZZELL

[MrWiggle]

Strange guys you 2.

If you note in my OP, that I asked for anyone that has HAD experience with this, first hand in other words.

Instead, you guys keep harping on the 'foreigners cannot own this or that'...we all know that, foreigners cannot own chanote either, so best if you keep your one eyed narrow minded views to yourself. We are all experts in the bar and recall nicely all the expert stories we hear...right ?

Let me run this by you and if anyone cares to comment.

Where we currently live, my wife has 2 blocks, a NS3 and a NS4. We rent a house nearby and this house is solid cement construction, 4 small seperate houses on about 2.5 rai. It has the electric connected, not temporary but permanent. it has town water and even a garbage collection. This house is on PTB5 land and this house has been here for at least 5 years and pretty sure the owner bought it from someone else, so not an inheritence deal.

On the eastern side is land owned by a monk and he is preparing to fill the land to build one day.

Next to him are 3 small house of the cheap farmer type, nothing special.

On our western side, there is a 10 rai block where the owner has built a small, but permanent house for a caretaker, he has also planted many large trees and built a pond in an L shape around the entire boundary. he also has electirc, water and garbage collection. The owner alos happens to be a General.

Next door to him is another block about 20 rai and he has just built a nice medium sized house, nice style, not the typical blue roof job, but concrete and nice windows and doors and tiled roof. He is the local village headman. he also has electric, water and garbage collection.

All these blocks are PTB5. All are not owned by the original owner and have been sold on at least once.

None of them are foreigners.

[MrWiggle]

I might also add that someone contacted me by PM about this and they have had first hand experience with this and the information given is what I was looking for in the OP.

So thanks again to that person and certainly shows that a few posters in here are supremely paranoid to the extreme.

Thats not to say there is no risk, of course there is, but it is all relative and should not be looked at with narrow mindedness which seems to afflict many here.

[katabeachbum]

Strange guys you 2.

If you note in my OP, that I asked for anyone that has HAD experience with this, first hand in other words.

Instead, you guys keep harping on the 'foreigners cannot own this or that'...we all know that, foreigners cannot own chanote either, so best if you keep your one eyed narrow minded views to yourself. We are all experts in the bar and recall nicely all the expert stories we hear...right ?

Let me run this by you and if anyone cares to comment.

Where we currently live, my wife has 2 blocks, a NS3 and a NS4. We rent a house nearby and this house is solid cement construction, 4 small seperate houses on about 2.5 rai. It has the electric connected, not temporary but permanent. it has town water and even a garbage collection. This house is on PTB5 land and this house has been here for at least 5 years and pretty sure the owner bought it from someone else, so not an inheritence deal.

On the eastern side is land owned by a monk and he is preparing to fill the land to build one day.

Next to him are 3 small house of the cheap farmer type, nothing special.

On our western side, there is a 10 rai block where the owner has built a small, but permanent house for a caretaker, he has also planted many large trees and built a pond in an L shape around the entire boundary. he also has electirc, water and garbage collection. The owner alos happens to be a General.

Next door to him is another block about 20 rai and he has just built a nice medium sized house, nice style, not the typical blue roof job, but concrete and nice windows and doors and tiled roof. He is the local village headman. he also has electric, water and garbage collection.

All these blocks are PTB5. All are not owned by the original owner and have been sold on at least once.

None of them are foreigners.

make us 3 strange guys

Yes I do have experience with PTB5. My ex gf has plenty of it. In most areas buildinpermit is not needed for one house on PTB5, and tabien baan is issued when building possible to live in. Then permanent el meter and watersupply is connected.

Still makes it impossible for farang to control this land or house in any way, since farangs rights can not be registered in land deed, and land can not even be leased on a private 3 year agreement. Spend your money, do not think for a second its an investemnt.

[MrWiggle]

Not so strange, but there you go also with the farang protection crisis.

we have had 4 blocks of land, none of them did I have a lease, a usufruct or any other such 'protection' on them.

It is not considered as an investment for this particular block.

As mentioned before, this block is the type where I would want to live forever.

[katabeachbum]

Not so strange, but there you go also with the farang protection crisis.

we have had 4 blocks of land, none of them did I have a lease, a usufruct or any other such 'protection' on them.

It is not considered as an investment for this particular block.

As mentioned before, this block is the type where I would want to live forever.

If you want to spend money and be happy on this land for the moment, fine

If you want to live there forever, I d say its a lifetime investment

but what do you do if the "owner" dies?

you dont even own the building, and you sure dont controll the land in any way

Edited March 23, 2010 by katabeachbum

[MrWiggle]

I have 3 children.

[RAZZELL]

The owner alos happens to be a General.

He is the local village headman.

All these blocks are PTB5. All are not owned by the original owner and have been sold on at least once.

None of them are foreigners.

I rest my case

RAZZ

[MrWiggle]

What case is that ..?

oh, you mean that only a general and a village headman with not much more than a pot to piss in are the only ones that can do it ?

What about the other 3 or 4 properties I mentioned with shacks ?

Get back to your tunnel visioned world Razz, you are more comfortable there obviously.

[dmax]

dont touch it mate , mite come back to bite you on the bum

[RAZZELL]

What case is that ..?

oh, you mean that only a general and a village headman with not much more than a pot to piss in are the only ones that can do it ?

What about the other 3 or 4 properties I mentioned with shacks ?

Get back to your tunnel visioned world Razz, you are more comfortable there obviously.

Yeah...right

I think you're the one with tunnel vision...You ask a question...you don't like a truthful answer

RAZZ

[Benjie]

Lets face it, if it was 'easy' to upgrade it to a better title, then surely the 'owner' would have done it already.

I'm sure it's not gonna appear on anyone's radar when Somchai grows some raddishes on it, do you really think it's going to be the same when a Farang decides to build a house on it?

Por Bor Tor is not ownership, simple as that. besides if these generals, village headmen etc... had any power surely they would just get it upgraded to Chanote?

[MrWiggle]

...You ask a question...you don't like a truthful answer

RAZZ

Yes, I asked a question, you never answered the actual question....because you have no idea, or experience in it.

You would not know the truth if it bit you on ther ass....remember...you cannot trust anyone here...shh, don't tell anyone.

[canopy]

In my limited observations, in practice this land title is a step along the path to chanote. Chanote will come years after development occurs. These titles are bought, sold, and built on. One can talk about the historical data blah blah blah, but I would be interested in hearing about any real world, modern examples where problems occurred with this title.

Obviously, chanote is the best land title and always preferred. But like the OP, I have noted the really good pieces of land off the beaten path don't have chanote. So the decision is do you buy something perfect without chanote or do you buy something you don't really like with the stability of chanote? That's a decision that will vary person to person.