Letter From A Farang To The Thai Prime Minister

[robblok]

Just like 1 person said here .. just make it so you can own a rai land with a house on it. That would not do much for the prices and would keep farmland safe.

Totally free yes then you got a lot of problems. But semi restricted where you can buy some land for your house is not too bad.

[jdinasia]

I've been in Thailand for 13 years and 10 years in Singapore before that.

And I really did not mind much about how Thailand was before I got a son here.

A Thai son.

And well, it is his country and now I'm concerned about his future and Thailand future.

And believe me on that, I'm probably the most logical guy you never met...

Then spend some more time thinking about it logically! Thais can't compete with the spending power of the West (and yes the middle east as well). Protectionism towards immigration and land sales (and manufacturing/imports) makes sense for a developing nation.

[MJP]

I've been in Thailand for 13 years and 10 years in Singapore before that.

And I really did not mind much about how Thailand was before I got a son here.

A Thai son.

And well, it is his country and now I'm concerned about his future and Thailand future.

And believe me on that, I'm probably the most logical guy you never met...

Then spend some more time thinking about it logically! Thais can't compete with the spending power of the West (and yes the middle east as well). Protectionism towards immigration and land sales (and manufacturing/imports) makes sense for a developing nation.

Exactly.

[jdinasia]

Just like 1 person said here .. just make it so you can own a rai land with a house on it. That would not do much for the prices and would keep farmland safe.

Totally free yes then you got a lot of problems. But semi restricted where you can buy some land for your house is not too bad.

Not so bad? How many Baby Boomers are at retirement age and looking for some place less expensive to live? They can't work here and won't be paying taxes other than VAT etc. Tourism is by far a better option for Thailand than selling off the land piecemeal. Granted it would be more convenient for many of us personally, but it wouldn't benefir the country in the long run.

Look at how many people are already buying land and houses here illegally. (or semi-legally through the shell company game).

[eurasianthai]

Right, please give me a few examples of Thai people from Isaan or other "poor" places in Thailand who benefitted from this restrictive law.

Thanks.

[whichschool]

It would be carnage if foreigners were allowed to own freehold.

That's absurd.

Go to France, Germany, England, Spain, Italy,... and you're allowed to buy any land, is it a carnage?

Well yes it is carnage as the average working person cant afford anything other the a 30m2 studio apartment .... but so long as youre ok brains!

[NovaBlue05]

why don't you allow foreigners to own land in Thailand

I think they did once, somewhere by the sea... everything was snapped up (by Germans i was told).

In my opinion the coast of Thailand is near enough ruined, sure, its great if you have the cash, but im sure that most Thai's cannot afford a room on the more beautiful spots. Everything is either farang owned or targetted to farang.

I say it's more or less ruined, but thats me comparing it to the Indian ocean beaches of Tanzania, and Mozambique.

If farang were allowed to own land, I think this place would rapidly disintegrate, I have a feeling that the baby boomers would swamp this place, which is great for the baby boomers, but would also generate huge amounts of hatred.

I agree with most of this, but I would say that if retirees were allowed to own 1 rai with certain conditions attached then land price would not soar. The conditions might be: 5 years consecutive "retirement" extensions, being present in Thailand for 90% of the year, not working, one home only, no companies allowed to apply, etc. In other words, conditions that show absolutely that the house+land is for domicile in Thailand by a person who wants to live here and not for speculation. Not so difficult to enforce, but as others have said there are far more important issues for the government to sort out first.

That's all I would need. Show me a candidate which endorses something like that and I might get as passionate about Thai politics as some others on TV

[DP25]

Been in Thailand for 13 years, could have become a citizen by now, and then you could own land.

[jdinasia]

Right, please give me a few examples of Thai people from Isaan or other "poor" places in Thailand who benefitted from this restrictive law.

Thanks.

Absolutely every one of them that has been able to afford to buy land that the family didn't already own for the last 50 years. Absolutely every one of them that has kept their land for the last 50 years.

I get that you think that you would personally benefit from getting your way in this, but it would be a disaster for Thailand. As someone else has rightly pointed out if you have been here for 13 years you could already have qualified to buy land here by getting PR and then citizenship. (And yes several TVF members have done both)

[citizen33]

I'd be surprised to see much progress in any of these areas any time soon. The concession that has always seemed to me to be the easiest is to allow ownership of a private residence for non-citizens married to a Thai spouse (makes things fairer in the event or divorce or the death of the Thai spouse). Incidentally one rai is a bit small except in the inner city. I'm not holding my breath.

[YanTree]

Dear Mr. Prime Minister,

Please ban touts.

That is all.

Regards,

Mr. Falang

[eurasianthai]

Been in Thailand for 13 years, could have become a citizen by now, and then you could own land.

This thread is not about me

Edited March 15, 2010 by eurasianthai

[eurasianthai]

I get that you think that you would personally benefit from getting your way in this

No

[hextac]

After all these years you clog heads just don't get it do you? Listen up, your in Thailand, live with it or get the hel_l out. stop wasting bandwith and our time....

In my experience the only people who would say something as crass as that are either Forum Trolls, Farang Sycophants, or Thai Xenophobes/Racists. Which are you?

[NADTATIDA1]

It's different here with the general wage levels.

You mean only the Thai high medium class and high class can buy land in Thailand?

Makes it fair?

No, he means anyone that had the advantages of the west would be able to buy far more than the average Thai. Hardly fair when you get some car mechanic from Wales buying up hectares of land that a car mechanic from here couldn't afford, now is it?

Please forgive me for having an opinion but this has been going on for years here,and many many Thais have profited from farang money especially in the villages were there is plenty of land for sale at inflated prices.

In the Cities now you can see plenty of New Thai money....building everywhere...it is not all Chinese/Thai money.Your rhetoric sometimes goes overboard...Thais have money,they are not the poor nation they once was and a lot of it is down to farang paying inflated prices for land over the past 20 years,nothing new!

Mr jdinasia some of your replys to the op's honest remarks are to put it lightly.... pompous!

"Not so bad? How many Baby Boomers are at retirement age and looking for some place less expensive to live? They can't work here and won't be paying taxes other than VAT etc. Tourism is by far a better option for Thailand than selling off the land piecemeal. Granted it would be more convenient for many of us personally, but it wouldn't benefir the country in the long run.

Look at how many people are already buying land and houses here illegally. (or semi-legally through the shell company game)."

Selling land off piecemeal??

Semi-legally through the shell company game?

How does a farang buy land or houses illegally in the numbers you are suggesting?

I think you should spend some time out in the sticks a bit more,issan??

[phetaroi]

This thread is not about me

Actually it is since you spent no time working to develop a consensus from farangs.

[a2396]

I think the Prime Minister is probably too preoccupied with domestic issues to give a flying fart about anything a Falang wants.

EXACTLY !! So many posts regarding Thai politics here and Farangs yapping on and on about this or that. If you cannot vote here and participate directly in how the country is run, you are going to have little effect.

[BlackArtemis]

The day farang can own land is the day that Thais become servants in their own country.

Either that or 100,000B/Wa even in the boonies will be the new price!

[PeaceBlondie]

Dear Mr. Prime Minister

I would like Thais to speak English. I would accept British English. And legalize gay marriage. And devalue the baht.

[Pakboong]

It's different here with the general wage levels.

You mean only the Thai high medium class and high class can buy land in Thailand?

Makes it fair?

IMHO, it is not all that simple. At the risk again of sounding like a conspiracy nut case, the laws in real property matters have evolved with the change in government over the last several generations. The last Prime minister to take an extreme stand against foreign control of Thai land was Plaek Pibulsongkram who envisioned the capitalist Chinese immigrants as a major threat to Thailand and sought to prevent them from owning land. The original laws were largely anti-Chinese.

The original reasons have been overcome and now the same laws are used to control Farang immigration. A couple of generations ago, there were essentially no Farangs in Thailand but the numbers of Chinese had increased significantly and now stand at something like 14 million. Pleak's ashes roll over in their bottle as I type the number 14 million.

This is an over simplification but the point remains:

Rama VI I believe it was allowed mass conversion of Chinese to become Thai citizens, assume Thai names and whatnot. It really doesn't matter when all this happened but it did happen and over time, the original laws still on the books, became used by the very people they were originally created to keep out, to keep the competition under control.

Pay attention to how efficiently immigration offices work in general compared to police offices in the same areas. The things that need to work like well oiled machines do and others simply stumble along. Both are police operations but one is efficient and thorough and the other looks like Mr. Bean is in charge. The application here is that government wants to control immigration and government is largely controlled by the Chinese(the last dozen or so Prime Ministers were ethnic Chinese)

Like in the west, bankers will eventually own the land through usery. The banks in Thailand are all Chinese owned. It may take 20 generations but it will happen. Those who loan the money control the land. No different than in the west. No reason to let the Farangs compete here when with a little patience the bankers will own it all. Do not for a second think that the typical ethnic Thai gives a hoot whether or not you own a Rai of land here.

Again, way over simplified. The story has evolved over many generations but is extremely effective. The current conflict between the Reds and Yellows have some similarities but the rival leaders of both sides are all Chinese.

[aitch52]

Haha nice one Peace, I also accept American English, I am of the other orientation but why not? I think that the visa process should be simplified for legally married people.

As for land prices, I looked at some close to the waterfront property a couple of years ago and enquired about the price of the small 2 bedroomed house, it was 3.4 million, pricy I thought but do-able, however the less than a rai land it sat on was nearly 18 million on top, mind you it was nice but becoming spoiled by that very development which invariably will be owned by foreigners.

Edited March 16, 2010 by aitch52

[scorecard]

It would be carnage if foreigners were allowed to own freehold. Preventing this is something I agree with. Huge land price bubble, few people benefit massively, price everyone else out of their own country. Something the UK must consider if the Pund is to be worth less.

I believe the government (country or just Bangkok ... not sure) are talking about bringing in a land tax which will force more land to be used to create an income rather than just being left vacant and unused. This would also cause the price to drop, because a lot of land owners don't have the funds to develop, so they will sell instead.

Ofcourse, your first thought would be "the rich land owning Bangkok elite will not let this (the land tax) to happen" and maybe you're right, but apparently it's being talked about.

EDIT: But if it was right, the land price would drop, and the government would want foreign investment to keep the prices up.

Amuses me how so many people have picked up this word 'elite', which appeared just a few months ago.

And in reality what does it really mean?

My take is that it's a nicely crafted word to create a 'mr. nasty' for thaksin / the red shirts to attack.

Where's the data to show that most land is owned by the Bangkok people (i'm not using the word 'elite')?

My understanding is that most of the land (outside of Bangkok) is owned by local/provincial and often ruthless land barons.

[maccaroni man]

if i were to ask for anything it would be for a min visa of 3yrs if not 10 as after 10 yrs of being married, with children, home and land owner, this annual 90 day bs is pathetic.

[onlooker]

Some practical steps Geordie Mark could implement that would have an immediate impact.

I'd like the PM to establish a mandatory Health Insurance policy covering all water buffalo living in Isaan. This would then enable expats marrying 'waitresses' they meet in Pattaya to sleep soundly knowing that there wont be any unexpected vetinary bills to cover in the future.

Likewise a limit should be placed on the number of drunk, waster relatives a farang is expected to support after marrying a local farm girl. I suggest a maximum of three - Dad, older brother and some bloke you never met before but seems very close to your new wife as she refers to him as her 'brother' when you are around - much to the amusement of her close friends.

Cash discounts on black Fortuners for expat buyers to bring them down to the price you'd pay 'back home' for an equivalent vehicle.

Free penis enlargement at Chula Hospital for all Harley riders living in Pattaya who only ever use their 'hogs' to get from their apartment on 2nd Road to Foodland to Beach Road and back.

And to keep PB and other TV mods happy - just declare Thailand as the world's first gay country - a huggable, hub of gayness. Everyone's wearing pink already and Hello Kitty has pretty much replaced the elephant as the national symbol so it's not a big step to make.

[FM505]

I've been in Thailand for 13 years and 10 years in Singapore before that.

And I really did not mind much about how Thailand was before I got a son here.

A Thai son.

And well, it is his country and now I'm concerned about his future and Thailand future.

And believe me on that, I'm probably the most logical guy you never met...

Then spend some more time thinking about it logically! Thais can't compete with the spending power of the West (and yes the middle east as well). Protectionism towards immigration and land sales (and manufacturing/imports) makes sense for a developing nation.

Jdinasia - 'Developing' nations thrive in their current status as it does not motivate them to further develop... that is to create a more level playing field for all citizens in terms of financial mobility, and power in the social arena of ideas... There are staggeringly rich people in Thailand. Many from China and India whose families arrived long ago and are now considered 'Thai'... Your argument can hardly be applied in these aggregate examples.

The elite families in 'developing' regions are having a field day with business monopolies (at least largeest shares of industry) and control or influence of regulations that stifle competition. This is undeniable.

Foreigners can own condos... businesses can buy a house or build a factory... but not secure the investment by owning the dirt...? This leads to mischief.

The 'If you don't like it leave rant' is juvenile. Change is inevitable in life.

Protectionism is just paranoia and a failed strategy. Competition makes us better at what we do... and creates more opportunity. There are too many historical examples of people succeeding when societies open up trade routes.

Creating 'straw man' scenarios does not bolster a discussion... it circumvents and distracts.

Edited March 16, 2010 by FM505

[FM505]

Some practical steps Geordie Mark could implement that would have an immediate impact.

I'd like the PM to establish a mandatory Health Insurance policy covering all water buffalo living in Isaan. This would then enable expats marrying 'waitresses' they meet in Pattaya to sleep soundly knowing that there wont be any unexpected vetinary bills to cover in the future.

Likewise a limit should be placed on the number of drunk, waster relatives a farang is expected to support after marrying a local farm girl. I suggest a maximum of three - Dad, older brother and some bloke you never met before but seems very close to your new wife as she refers to him as her 'brother' when you are around - much to the amusement of her close friends.

Cash discounts on black Fortuners for expat buyers to bring them down to the price you'd pay 'back home' for an equivalent vehicle.

Free penis enlargement at Chula Hospital for all Harley riders living in Pattaya who only ever use their 'hogs' to get from their apartment on 2nd Road to Foodland to Beach Road and back.

And to keep PB and other TV mods happy - just declare Thailand as the world's first gay country - a huggable, hub of gayness. Everyone's wearing pink already and Hello Kitty has pretty much replaced the elephant as the national symbol so it's not a big step to make.

[jdinasia]

NO "Straw Man" has been created here.

Protectionism in land makes sense in a country where the majority of the people owning small parcels of land are "cash poor".

Check your facts about foreign controlled businesses ownling land legally(if they are not BOI).

You make my point for me by mentioning ethnic groups (now Thai) that are sucessful here.

"Elites" --- gads. Yes there are some very affluent people in Thailand. There are people with a disproportionate amount of wealth everywhere.

The CIA World Factbook shows the GINI index to be similar to that of the USA and the Highest 10% versus the lowest 10% to control similar amounts of income. The difference is that the middle group of US citizens would be able to completely buy out the middle group of Thai citizens.

I get that people want to play in a place where the playing field is far from level and that is the appeal for those people to want to get rid of the protectionism in Thailand.

[FM505]

It would be carnage if foreigners were allowed to own freehold. Preventing this is something I agree with. Huge land price bubble, few people benefit massively, price everyone else out of their own country. Something the UK must consider if the Pund is to be worth less.

I believe the government (country or just Bangkok ... not sure) are talking about bringing in a land tax which will force more land to be used to create an income rather than just being left vacant and unused. This would also cause the price to drop, because a lot of land owners don't have the funds to develop, so they will sell instead.

Ofcourse, your first thought would be "the rich land owning Bangkok elite will not let this (the land tax) to happen" and maybe you're right, but apparently it's being talked about.

EDIT: But if it was right, the land price would drop, and the government would want foreign investment to keep the prices up.

Amuses me how so many people have picked up this word 'elite', which appeared just a few months ago.

And in reality what does it really mean?

My take is that it's a nicely crafted word to create a 'mr. nasty' for thaksin / the red shirts to attack.

Where's the data to show that most land is owned by the Bangkok people (i'm not using the word 'elite')?

My understanding is that most of the land (outside of Bangkok) is owned by local/provincial and often ruthless land barons.

Where is the data to back up your 'understanding' of rural land owners?

Elite elements of any society are standard fare... the 'wealthy' ring a bell?

Not besmirching wealth, and not advocating a redistribution of their wealth... simply observing human behavior. The rich like their situations... I admire them. But there is a very real paranoia for those who may not be gaining their money legitimately or those who proscribe protectionist maneuvers. No finger pointing here either... it is a common practice - "After we develop this area or set this [fill in the blank] regulation, lets pull the ladder up behind us so no one else can get in on the deal..." Happens everywhere...

The wealthy have such influence as described above and they largely reside in the major cities of commerce. Its a no brainer... spreading out power is exceedingly unappealing to the 'elites'...

Edited March 16, 2010 by FM505

[ralfbkk]

I have a five year work permit

Conditions? I'm sure interested.

Most likely BOI Company who do Visa and Work Permit at the One Stop Service Center. Different Rules. Worked for a large MNC in Bangkok a few years. Company was under BOI and had over 1500 Staff at the time. Registered Capital was far over 100 MILL THB. In 2001 went to

One Stop Service Center and got a 5 year Work Permit plus was the Visa etc done in a very short period of time. Less than 2 hrs and we were out there. Great Service.

[FM505]

NO "Straw Man" has been created here.

Protectionism in land makes sense in a country where the majority of the people owning small parcels of land are "cash poor".

Check your facts about foreign controlled businesses ownling land legally(if they are not BOI).

You make my point for me by mentioning ethnic groups (now Thai) that are sucessful here.

"Elites" --- gads. Yes there are some very affluent people in Thailand. There are people with a disproportionate amount of wealth everywhere.

The CIA World Factbook shows the GINI index to be similar to that of the USA and the Highest 10% versus the lowest 10% to control similar amounts of income. The difference is that the middle group of US citizens would be able to completely buy out the middle group of Thai citizens.

I get that people want to play in a place where the playing field is far from level and that is the appeal for those people to want to get rid of the protectionism in Thailand.

I think we agree... a middle class in Thailand is well overdue... and that is a call for reform of the status quo...

I also think it is important to advance discussions in general terms to avoid a downward spiral of the meaning implied or to create an upswing in emotional perceptions. No offense intended with the straw man reference... I just read and hear so much conversational misdirection in this regard.

There are lots of difficult circumstances in life. But the best way to help or advance causes is to open trade and communication. Not full throttle certainly. Gov't works best in slow motion actually, but they most assuredly should not be inhibiting economic growth in the private sector.

There are no quick fixes or perfect plans, but a clear plan with stated goals nonetheless is paramount for a society, or a community, or a family to develop and prosper.

Again, there is a warm reception to foreign investment in Thailand, though the hoops and obstacles to progress are excessive and all too often are inanely contradictory. One can purchase (or construct) a building but cannot own the dirt...? This certainly can lead to mischief.

Edited March 16, 2010 by FM505