Are Many Thais Rude Or Lacking Developed Nation's Common Sense

[traderjm]

When reading the majority of these posts, my first and strongest feeling is that the (western) people experiencing these 'problems' continue to live with a western mindset and, unless they change this, will always be frustrated/exasperated/unhappy/pee'd off living in Thailand...

I have always wondered what that term means "western mindset" my Thai wife and I have lived in BKK for four years now full time and each year we spend about two months on the West Coast of Canada. With each trip my wife comes back more and more confused as to why her fellow Thai's do so many completely brain dead and time sucking things. It's gotten to the point where when we are in a mall with her parents and her Dad does the zombie stop at the bottom of the esclator she will pull him out of the way of the people behind, point at them and say "dad don't block everyone else" he will look at all those faces he does not know and ask her why who are they somebody important? It is stunning that some people actually imply that normal practical common sense for the good of the majority solutions are whining and either learn to adapt and go home. Talk about having blinders on. OH and don't worry we are leaving at my wife's request she simply has had enough of the daily nonsense in her OWN native land would like to have a full time change of scenery.

[Richb2004v2]

When reading the majority of these posts, my first and strongest feeling is that the (western) people experiencing these 'problems' continue to live with a western mindset and, unless they change this, will always be frustrated/exasperated/unhappy/pee'd off living in Thailand...

I have always wondered what that term means "western mindset" my Thai wife and I have lived in BKK for four years now full time and each year we spend about two months on the West Coast of Canada. With each trip my wife comes back more and more confused as to why her fellow Thai's do so many completely brain dead and time sucking things. It's gotten to the point where when we are in a mall with her parents and her Dad does the zombie stop at the bottom of the esclator she will pull him out of the way of the people behind, point at them and say "dad don't block everyone else" he will look at all those faces he does not know and ask her why who are they somebody important? It is stunning that some people actually imply that normal practical common sense for the good of the majority solutions are whining and either learn to adapt and go home. Talk about having blinders on. OH and don't worry we are leaving at my wife's request she simply has had enough of the daily nonsense in her OWN native land would like to have a full time change of scenery.

I agree exactely. Call these characteristics what you will, and label them cultural quirks if you like, but what ever they are they drive my wife and I insane. My wife (Thai) goes mad about their stupid actions all the time. Now we have children she voices her frustration even more, especially when on the roads. I don't know how folk experience the same nonsense daily and manage to brush it off. We are hoping to leave just as soon as we have a couple of things sorted out. If it's driving here crazy and it's her country then I think it's time to leave.

[johndpoole]

Another good thing to do when visiting or even living in other countries that have different views and attitudes to those of your home country, is to leave your Western views and attitudes in the West. You are, after all, a guest in another country!

Always remember, the bigger the expectation, the greater the disappointment.

In theory good and although westerners have brought a lot of havoc around the world, we have also caused the vast majority to rise out of poverty and increase living and health standards as well as birth & life expectancy. Nations when in trouble hold their hands out to westerm countiries like the US when they are in trouble or have natural disasters.

I am not even so much saying we have a right or even obligation to help these countries with backwards traditions that hinder themselve, their fellow citizens and retard postive growth BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY Thais want to copy western society. So much so I sometimes find it offending to see white models on huge build boards advertising beauty products as if Asian skin and feature is something to think is not beautiful. And it all works ... the whitening cream/pills is HUGE business here. Look at magazines with all English wording on the covers but all Thai lettering inside. I can go on and on but Thailand as a country does seem to lack in originality and tend to be a nation that likes to copy the trends and practices and culture of other nations.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to spread consideration globally and I certainly would not point with my foot at a Thai visiting the USA because this would be rude to the Thai and I should respect him/her regardless of where he can be found on a GPS map. But in Thailand nobody speaks up and we as westerners should help teach them it is okay to find ways to polite tell their fellow humans they can be more respectful and aware of others around them.

Again, I would not trash talk the King of Thailand in the US to a group of Thais even thought in US culture it is fine to do. I know it would be impolite and rude.

And as for being a guest .. we are more like customers and although maybe not a Thai saying but I hope you get the point ... "The customer is always right"

There needs to be give and take is my point but in no way shape or form should a tourist not voice rude and unsafe behaviour regardless of local customs there is nothing wrong with explaining ... "You know it our country we try not cause a spring loaded door to his the next person in line and it really seems to avoid many injuries and create more harmony. Do you think that kind of action would work here?"

Did you know the MGM Grand in Vegas actually spent millions a few years back remodeling their newly completed entrance because they found out Japanese (I think could have been Chinese) felt walking into a lions mouth was a bad luck or omen. What they didn't do is say "well here in the US we find that custom stupid and just deal with it" .. Mosty of us westerners spend a HECK OF A LOT more than they average Thai supporting this economy so, we should be able to at least speak up. We shouldn't expect change neccisarily but we should feel comfortable voicing complaints ... or would the Thais prefer we spend our dollars in other neighboringcountries as so many folks are stating to do?

[endure]

I've said it before: I've found that Thai's are unable to understand the concept of causing inconvenience to others. Whenever it happens (often) all you get is a blank stare of incomprehension.

Well at least I got my rantings for the day out but feel a little silly that you were able to sum up exactly what I was talking about in one sentence .... "unable to understand the concept of causing inconvenience to others"

Ever heard of 'greng jai'?

er, no, do you think you could please whip off an accurate explanation or 100 words or so?

You know as well as I that it's very difficult to explain greng jai completely but one of its components is the concept of not wishing to cause inconvenience to others - see above. It seems that some of the posters on this thread have no idea that it even exists

[endure]

Out of curiousity, I have heard mentioned many times that there are things that westerners do that Thai would consider to be rude, can any one list the worst / most common offences?

Loudness, arrogance, lack of table manners in Thai eating situations, whining about everything, condescension, sexually inappropriate behavior with non working women etc..

Western behavior in Thailand is much worse than typical Thai behavior.

well I must admit, thats pretty rude, those behaviors would be considered rude in most western countries as well - with the exception of loudness possibly.

are there any specific other ones??

Blowing your nose

Licking your fingers

Touching other people's heads

Pointing your feet at other people

Stepping over rather than round people

[bina]

joh, u should take a bit more time to read my stream of concioiusness thoughts: i said specifically, that police DONT enforce rules, neither here (although after last week apparently more police will be ont he roads, from the driving here u wouldnt notice the difference/and in thailand)... as for seatbelts:

when i was young and dating, my parents would request that the boy would sleep over at the house, rather then drive back at night; i got grounded, not for missing curfew, but for being caught w/o seatbelt on... i had huge fights with my ex fil here about child seats when babies were released from hosptials w/o carseats and i refused to go home until we had one for my first born... i agree with u, not disagree.... my grammar must be at fault there...

but again, safety is not etiquette. i am an ex-hygiene and safety manager and one reason why id ont work in that field, here , is that it is next to impossible to change 60 yrs of mind set and get people used to following procedures and safety regs/safety equipment. changes come very very slowly... and usually enforced through the pocket (fines) and not positive ways, unfortunately. most of my kids' friends call me the 'safety freak' 'the hysterical american' etc cause they get cause and effect explanations for why i use safety equipment or read intructions first. its , again, not politeness or stupidity. its a mind set re inforced tacitly by the surrounding culture .

point in mind is that husband does wear safety equipment when he works (now in gardening/trees and stuff); for some bizarre reason, his employer is also a safety freak and wont budge with out helmet/goggles/gloves etc. i see at home that husband automatically dons his stuff for work here now around the house. it wouldnt have happend two years ago.

so things that bother u as impolite like picking nose in public vx car safety = two different ball games. the one i would invest time money and education in trying to change. the other, i really couldnt care less. the driving a pickup in the mu baan with kids in the back is a familiar thai scenario. we did that, but rather then trying to change the whole thing we started small: any time a child stood up to lean over the back etc, we stopped on the side of the road. they learned really quickly to sit quiet when i was in the truck at least.

playing with fire in the house was an other pet peeve. so i just pre-empted, and showed them better ways to put candles around the room when the electric blew out. i made my sis in laws slightly nervous about me sort of 'sorting' things out, but i only did that with the kids. i never did it with adults cause its not my job in the owrld to correct adults tha 'already know'... with children u can shape their behavior.

there is always the question as to when a foreigner should interfere with a 'socially acceptable ' behavior fo rthe native, but not for the stranger... hwat is your red line that is crossed? the lines are blurry really. that is why, when new cultures (immigrants, particularly from very different, i.e. third world developing countries) meet western cultures, there are so many problems-- the clashof understanding and the resisitance acceptance to change.

thailand in parts is still old fashioned agrucultural society with all the meanings intertwined within: doing things as the old folks did (we did this for 50 yrs if its not good enought for u then go way), enviromental lack of intellectual stimulation and openess to change, poverty, therefoer mroe concerned for daily living activities then thoughts for others (if u are worried about making ends meet, what do u care about some shmo in your way on the side walk?); in urban thailand, its stil a daily rat race...

examples: here, the latest campaing in safety: a child under age 9 doesnt cross the street alone. do u know, the parents didnt pay attention, it ws the kids being positively brain washed in kindergarten and school that insisted on having adults help them cross the roads. as thailand evens out politically, and financially, more time and effor twill be put in towards safety issues, customer service issues. the changes from agricultural to industrial w/o benefit of money and education i think a a major cause in what u consider 'rude' un western' not curteous behavior. wealthier stabler nations have a better track record for this. they have more time to work out plans and implement them. they have less pressure to just 'stay in place' without sliding back down....

yes, the 'bannork' mentality (what anon uses as an excuse when he does something silly) can change, but u have to pick and choose what to change. again, picking teeth at dinner is not on the list of priorities. here, that is also considered culturally exceptable. but it is no longer culturally exceptable like 19 yrs ago to hold a baby on your lap in a car. now, even the "dumb country folk " use a car seat, because they are afraid of paying fines, cause its in vogue to have the most expensive carseat for your child, cause mister rich singer uses one. these reasons will be the reasons behind any change in thailand for these matters.

whhooooooooooo.... hope i set the record straight now.. and u were quite rude in your response , and i am being polite but i suspect that your rudeness comes from more then the usual concern for child safety etc (perhaps u knew someone in an accident?) so i will ignore it... a sort of greng jai -ness needed here....

still a fascinating topic really

bina

israel

[phetaroi]

In theory good and although westerners have brought a lot of havoc around the world, we have also caused the vast majority to rise out of poverty and increase living and health standards as well as birth & life expectancy. Nations when in trouble hold their hands out to westerm countiries like the US when they are in trouble or have natural disasters.

I am not even so much saying we have a right or even obligation to help these countries with backwards traditions that hinder themselve, their fellow citizens and retard postive growth BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY Thais want to copy western society. ... Thailand as a country does seem to lack in originality and tend to be a nation that likes to copy the trends and practices and culture of other nations.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to spread consideration globally ... But in Thailand nobody speaks up and we as westerners should help teach them it is okay to find ways to polite tell their fellow humans they can be more respectful and aware of others around them.

... we are more like customers and although maybe not a Thai saying but I hope you get the point ... "The customer is always right"

There needs to be give and take is my point but in no way shape or form should a tourist not voice rude and unsafe behaviour regardless of local customs there is nothing wrong with explaining ... "You know it our country we try not cause a spring loaded door to his the next person in line and it really seems to avoid many injuries and create more harmony. Do you think that kind of action would work here?"

... Mosty of us westerners spend a HECK OF A LOT more than they average Thai supporting this economy so, we should be able to at least speak up. We shouldn't expect change neccisarily but we should feel comfortable voicing complaints ... or would the Thais prefer we spend our dollars in other neighboringcountries as so many folks are stating to do?

You cover some interesting points, and I agree with about half of what you've poster. A few counter points:

1. As one of the richest nations in the world, the U.S. can afford to be more generous during world calamities. However, when the president of the U.S. insists on saying -- as they all always do -- that Americans are the most generous people in the world...well, baloney, and much of the generosity has strings or expectations attached to it. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not pure generosity.

2. In terms of them and their retarded growth...take a look at the data. Thailand's average yearly economic growth the past few years is about 5%. More than America's or England's.

3. Although the customer is not always right...anywhere in the world...it's not a bad philosophy for companies and governments to strive toward. Thailand could do much better in that regard, and my guess is that like with most countries in the west, consumerism -- and that's what it really is -- will catch up with Thai countries sooner or later.

4. You are able to speak up. You may not be liked or respected for speaking up, but in what we are talking about in this thread, no one censors you. On the other hand, you grossly over-estimate the total value of most non-tourist farangs to the well-being of Thailand. And you might want to actually look at the economic data for Burma, Laos, and Cambodia, before you assume they are catching up to Thailand.

[endure]

Another good thing to do when visiting or even living in other countries that have different views and attitudes to those of your home country, is to leave your Western views and attitudes in the West. You are, after all, a guest in another country!

Always remember, the bigger the expectation, the greater the disappointment.

In theory good and although westerners have brought a lot of havoc around the world, we have also caused the vast majority to rise out of poverty and increase living and health standards as well as birth & life expectancy. Nations when in trouble hold their hands out to westerm countiries like the US when they are in trouble or have natural disasters.

I am not even so much saying we have a right or even obligation to help these countries with backwards traditions that hinder themselve, their fellow citizens and retard postive growth BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY Thais want to copy western society. So much so I sometimes find it offending to see white models on huge build boards advertising beauty products as if Asian skin and feature is something to think is not beautiful. And it all works ... the whitening cream/pills is HUGE business here. Look at magazines with all English wording on the covers but all Thai lettering inside. I can go on and on but Thailand as a country does seem to lack in originality and tend to be a nation that likes to copy the trends and practices and culture of other nations.

How would you feel if a gang of Thais moved to the USA and started posting on USAvisa.com that that all Americans are rude or lacking common sense and that they had the solutions to all your problems? Would you think them arrogant and overbearing? Would you rail against them and say that their cultural norms aren't yours? Would you get really hacked off that someone had travelled half way round the world and without bothering to inform themselves of the societal norms in your country or even bothered to learn your language that they started to criticise the very basics of the way your society operates?

If you want to live in a country that reflects your own beliefs it's not really sensible to move to the other side of the world to live somewhere that is utterly and completely different to the way you've been bought up.

Living in Thailand (or anywhere else that isn't your 'home' country) is an opportunity to realise that there are many different ways of living a human life besides the one you were bought up to believe is the 'right' one.

[motoyen]

For such a crowded country I'm amazed that the Thais lack any type of spatial awareness. Maybe it gets worse as the population grows because the Chinese are even worse than the Thais. That's probably why they are such terrible drivers.

[bonobo]

1. As one of the richest nations in the world, the U.S. can afford to be more generous during world calamities. However, when the president of the U.S. insists on saying -- as they all always do -- that Americans are the most generous people in the world...well, baloney, and much of the generosity has strings or expectations attached to it. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not pure generosity.

Actually, you are wrong here.  Americans are by far the most generous people in the world.  Not the US government (for which assistance often does come with the strings you mentioned attached.)  The Japanese government, for example, gives a higher percentage of its GNP as international aid than does the US government. And to bring this to the local level, for the tsunami, governments such as that of Sweden and the UK gave much more per capita than the US government did.  But as individuals, Americans pony up a far greater percentage, and that aid is truly given from the heart.  From rock groups raising money for relief in Chile to a nine-year old girl raising several million dollars by organizing other students for aid to Haiti, this is part of the American consciousness.  And between the US individuals and the government, yes, Americans are the most "generous" people in the world.

[bonobo]

Did you know the MGM Grand in Vegas actually spent millions a few years back remodeling their newly completed entrance because they found out Japanese (I think could have been Chinese) felt walking into a lions mouth was a bad luck or omen. What they didn't do is say "well here in the US we find that custom stupid and just deal with it" .. Mosty of us westerners spend a HECK OF A LOT more than they average Thai supporting this economy so, we should be able to at least speak up. We shouldn't expect change neccisarily but we should feel comfortable voicing complaints ... or would the Thais prefer we spend our dollars in other neighboringcountries as so many folks are stating to do?

This really has more to do with business, not rudeness, and the American attitude towards making money.  Chinese are a huge market in Vegas, and they gamble more per person than most ethnic groups.  So when the huge lion was was put at the entrance to the casino, with the mouth being the doorway, Chinese started avoiding the place, thinking it was bad luck to enter, and bad luck translates to not winning as much.  As soon as the folks at the MGM determined what the problem was, they immediately re-designed the doorway.  This was not so much as a bow to Chinese beliefs in order not to be rude, but it was a means to get more CHinese into the MGM so they could extract more money from them.

In the same way, Waikiki kowtows to the Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans, and yes, how Pattaya restaurants make it easy for English and Russian speakers to come in and order food.  Politeness or cultural acceptance is not the driving force--making money is.

[Carib]

I posted this earlier in the other topic where it also comes down to calling Thai people more or less stupid, as done so many time s on TV, with all it`s perfect members coming from perfect countries.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/World-Thaila....html&st=25

Well, at least Thailand isn't at war with half of the world and doesn't have not have a credit crisis and all that shit which the ooooh so well developed and very responsible acting educated western world has.

It is about time westerners looked at their own faults, which make some nations the absolute laughing stock of the world, but most just live in that blind spot, so it is very hard to see for themselves.

It is like that it seems westerners are the only educated people on this planet, I very much doubt it if you look at the gawddamn mess made of it in all kind of ways.

The thing most westerners are really good at, is being arrogant, and expecting everything just to be the same as back home, and if it isn't than it must be a retarded society on which they are commenting.

No burger like back home, no beer like back home, no transport like back home, other rituals than back home and to really top it off, these natives don't even speak English, how retarded they are and what a dumb society it must be.

Just look back, and take a real good look at education and the results in your home country, and what is done with it.

Take a real good look at how close-minded and absolutely ignorant of other parts of the world your fellow country men really are, that is if you don't have the same problem.

We choose to blame others for whatever bothers us that, because we are sooooo much better…..

Nuff said.

[jackr]

You know as well as I that it's very difficult to explain greng jai completely but one of its components is the concept of not wishing to cause inconvenience to others - see above.

I'd say it's more selfish than that... more keeping one and opinions/true feelings to oneself so as to not embarrass the self.

[yabaaaa]

You know as well as I that it's very difficult to explain greng jai completely but one of its components is the concept of not wishing to cause inconvenience to others - see above. It seems that some of the posters on this thread have no idea that it even exists

Seems to me most Thais dont know it now either with their selfish behaviour.

[yabaaaa]

I posted this earlier in the other topic where it also comes down to calling Thai people more or less stupid, as done so many time s on TV, with all it`s perfect members coming from perfect countries.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/World-Thaila....html&st=25

Well, at least Thailand isn't at war with half of the world and doesn't have not have a credit crisis and all that shit which the ooooh so well developed and very responsible acting educated western world has.

It is about time westerners looked at their own faults, which make some nations the absolute laughing stock of the world, but most just live in that blind spot, so it is very hard to see for themselves.

It is like that it seems westerners are the only educated people on this planet, I very much doubt it if you look at the gawddamn mess made of it in all kind of ways.

The thing most westerners are really good at, is being arrogant, and expecting everything just to be the same as back home, and if it isn't than it must be a retarded society on which they are commenting.

No burger like back home, no beer like back home, no transport like back home, other rituals than back home and to really top it off, these natives don't even speak English, how retarded they are and what a dumb society it must be.

Just look back, and take a real good look at education and the results in your home country, and what is done with it.

Take a real good look at how close-minded and absolutely ignorant of other parts of the world your fellow country men really are, that is if you don't have the same problem.

We choose to blame others for whatever bothers us that, because we are sooooo much better…..

Nuff said.

Thailand doesnt have the capability to be at war with half the world but do you think if it did it wouldnt? I seem to remember they had a few problems financially in 97. who bailed them out?

English, well it seems many of them are keen to learn it or havent you noticed the English language schools everywhere?

Any Thais with half a brain and the abiltity to do so send their kids OUT of Thailand to get an education I hear the U.S is a favoured choice?

Of course Thais have a wonderful open outlook and view of other cultures too??? They know all about countries outside of Thailand dont they, why not ask a few Thais where some other countries are?

I wont comment on the driving habits, litter or total disrespect for their own country rubbish strewn everywhere etc.

Your'e the one whose needs to look by the sound of it.

Edited March 18, 2010 by yabaaaa

[bina]

to keep the topic back more or less on topic: it woud seem that most developing countries have the same litter/bad driving/ etc etc problems probably due to the fact that the changes materially (plastic, more cars per household, access to more goods, the 'push' to buy, tv/media) speaking are faster then the rules/regualations for dealing with these material things. there is litter everwehre because it is easier now to buy things in plastic, no one uses oragnic banana leaves anymore; but the plastic came beofre the littering laws. its like the difference between a planned development with wide streets, good traffic flow (maybe in dreams), parks, playgrounds, whatever, as opposed to a town that grows in leaps and bounds. so what u get is all the glamour and glory of buying, using, shopping, driving, travelling, more people (less infant mortatlity and population growth faster then land can provide for them) without the benefit of planning.

i can say that we see it here: i live in a village (kibbutz actually) that plans ahead five years for its building, soical and materialistic needs. the arabc village down below, which used to be an idyllic little town has grown in leaps and bounds, w/o planning. the guys i work with complain constantly about sewage problems, garbage collection problems, and to outsiders, the town looks a mess: garbage everywhere, houses in all directions, and it is not a poor town nor is it a town that is not on the grid for the various political reasons here. they are well to do, middle and upper educated folks. but they are the first generation of 'educated' and not just 'well to do'. their parents stil have the 'goat herd' farming, lots of land, space and resources mentality. inside houses everything is neat clean and beautiful. outside looks like a dump. because there is plenty more land, no one around, etc.

the new genration of kids that are now building houses are more thoughtful towards planning, and even safety measures. they check land laws before just doing something.

im still maintain that thailand will catch up to itself soon enough, with education and oppurtunity. a nation needs money, stability and psychological time to invest in developing in to something that we call 'western'. no country is perfect.

btw, the thais here use a word frequently to mean- freedom to do what you want to do. they use this saying alot as they complain about the restraints here (for religious reasons, shabbat no transport, holidays that dictate what u eat and where and when). the word is 'freestyle' -- issilah. in being freestyle, your self awarenss is developed but your social awareness gets pushed to the side or considered less important. dont forget that buddhism (theravada not the other types) pushes for INDIVIDUAL DEVELOPMENT AND BEHAVIOR', not social awareness like other forms do.

seems the subjct hs been sucked dry really...

bina

israel

[Furbie]

1. As one of the richest nations in the world, the U.S. can afford to be more generous during world calamities. However, when the president of the U.S. insists on saying -- as they all always do -- that Americans are the most generous people in the world...well, baloney, and much of the generosity has strings or expectations attached to it. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not pure generosity.

Actually, you are wrong here. Americans are by far the most generous people in the world. Not the US government (for which assistance often does come with the strings you mentioned attached.) The Japanese government, for example, gives a higher percentage of its GNP as international aid than does the US government. And to bring this to the local level, for the tsunami, governments such as that of Sweden and the UK gave much more per capita than the US government did. But as individuals, Americans pony up a far greater percentage, and that aid is truly given from the heart. From rock groups raising money for relief in Chile to a nine-year old girl raising several million dollars by organizing other students for aid to Haiti, this is part of the American consciousness. And between the US individuals and the government, yes, Americans are the most "generous" people in the world.

The Japanese government is far worse at linking aid to an agenda than the US government - Japanese aid is very closely linked to Japanese business interests. Also, the Japanese percentage of GNP may be higher, but the overall amount is lower (from what I recall). Finally, as you said, American individuals are extremely generous, as our American businesses. Frankly, when taken as a whole - America gives more than anyone. Do the math.

[Rumblecat]

I am not even so much saying we have a right or even obligation to help these countries with backwards traditions that hinder themselve, their fellow citizens and retard postive growth BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY Thais want to copy western society. So much so I sometimes find it offending to see white models on huge build boards advertising beauty products as if Asian skin and feature is something to think is not beautiful. And it all works ... the whitening cream/pills is HUGE business here.

I always understood that the white skin thing was more to do with wanting to look upper class- tanned skin means you work in the fields, white skin means you don't. I'm not certain that business really has that much to do with the West. In the same way that the massive huge tanning business in the west (both fake tans and tanning salons) has more to do with people wanting to look good and give off a social image than it does with wanting to ape countries where people have darkened skins.

Edited March 18, 2010 by Rumblecat

[Naam]

Its not rude. It a cultural thing, and not confined just to Thailand. Asians often consider western ways odd too. If you live here, you have to accept that thats the way it is and a few wingeing farangs are not going to change things.

some whinging is warranted when some clown makes a sudden move or steps backwards without looking. happens all the time but otherwise i did not encounter any more rudeness than in other countries.

[Tejas]

Rude or lacking in common sense............I think it is actually a lack of morals that inform people how to behave in a "civilized" manner.

Beneath the plastered on grin is a "smiling villain." Watch your back here.

Common sense can be a good and bad thing depending on what is "common."

Certainly Thais are more culturally enslaved that others.......very little creativity........almost no ability to think out of the box.

They tend to do the same thing over and over and over again........getting a negative result.........and then doing the same thing again over and over and over again.

In psychology that is sometimes the definition of insanity.......doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Sorry.......getting off topic.

[Richie1971]

Its not rude. It a cultural thing, and not confined just to Thailand. Asians often consider western ways odd too. If you live here, you have to accept that thats the way it is and a few wingeing farangs are not going to change things.

Is this cultural -

Yesteday, i am waiting for a man to finish at the local kasikorn ATM Machine, till i realize that this fella is actually withdrawing 20K with the same card, to cover a 100k or more perhaps. Now, everytime 20k comes out from the slot, he counts it, collects the transaction slip and starts over again for the next round of 20k. He looked at me twice, till such time i gave him a nasty look and he stepped aside.

Prior to this one, again kasikorn atm, long queue of 10 ppl behind me already. And this bugger is doing the same thing withdrawing 20k over n over again. I had to tap him on his shoulder to show him the long queue, and then he gave me a stare (to which i responded in thai saying...wat the heck are you looking at.. the money is out there!) He moved thereafter, probably wasn't expecting thai from me.

Erm.. While I agree with the comments in the thread about Thais being strangely spatially unaware I fail to see the issue here and if you had tapped me on my shoulder while I was doing my banking you would have been told to back off.

I used to have to take 100k out of an ATM monthly, what do you want me to do, queue up 5 times, or allow someone through each time ?? No I queue up and wait like everyone else, and when its my turn I use it until I am finished.

I cant even understand how else you would expect it to operate.

I understand what you are saying but would you really not step aside if you had that much ATM work to do and the que got long? Plus, can't you take out more than 20k at a pop? Obviously he had at least a 100k daily limit on his card. I think the frustration may have also come from how Thai's love to count money 3 times before they believe the amount (always makes visits to the 7-11 fun). But I agree, this is an irritation I think we all experience in all parts of the world. But kind of similar to the store when somebody has 30 items and you are just buying a pack of smokes and they let you go ahead. I would be unhappy with this experience but wouldn't be pissed unless it was actually at the bank and the bank was open.

But do ATM's here have a limit on what they will disperse? I usually take out 20k at a time and have to go to a special screen to enter the number but I could swear I once took out 40k in one shot. I know my ATM has a daily limit and think many ATMS may have a transaction limit but think those are the off brand ATMS (not affiliated with any bank) but "think" the actual bank ATMs will give you what every your daily limit is.

I would just go to another ATM - there are generally a few about everywhere apart from the one horse towns

[traderjm]

I agree exactely. Call these characteristics what you will, and label them cultural quirks if you like, but what ever they are they drive my wife and I insane. My wife (Thai) goes mad about their stupid actions all the time. Now we have children she voices her frustration even more, especially when on the roads. I don't know how folk experience the same nonsense daily and manage to brush it off. We are hoping to leave just as soon as we have a couple of things sorted out. If it's driving here crazy and it's her country then I think it's time to leave.

Perfect example driving down Ram today and a taxi is stopped in the left lane letting out five or six people that all have bags and a couple of things in the trunk and all of this happening no more than 5 feet from a vacant lot driveway that is gated so pulling in there would not bothered NOBODY in the flow of traffic and the people getting out of the cab could have done so without slowing everything down. Of course that is the main issue the secondary one is all the people stuck in the long line of cars that now decide they have to move to the middle lane and start one by one inching over and slowing down the people in that previously still middle lane of course those people won't actually stop to let people in they will just swerve over and take over half of the right hand lane forcing those people to stop too... the insanity on the roads daily can't simply be ignored or made right by saying if you don't like it go home.

MY WIFE IS THAI, this is her home and she wants to kill those people every time she sees things like this. Too many people post on boards like these dealing with subjects like this and think that every other Thai in the Kingdom looks at massively stupid actions like this and say yah that's all ok, when quite often that is not their reaction. My wife says it time and time again, poor education, NO social skills EVER taught as children, because far too many kids are NOT raised by their mother and father but rather are sent away to an Aunt's or Grandparents up country, who bless them for their help really only care about feeding and looking after and making sure the child is safe, but have NO interest or perhaps experience is actually teaching them valuable life skills as they were never taught any as a child.

When our son was first born many of her Aunts would come to our house to visit him, no problem happy to have them, but what used to drive me crazy was they would walk in our house and go wheres the baby? My wife would say upstairs having a nap and they would just start to march up the stairs to go wake him or see him or whatever. My wife had to stop them and say where are you going? You can't just walk in our house and walk up to our bedrooms and disturb our son. They always got offended by it to the point my mother in law would try to lecture my wife about it. She always put her mother in her place and told her from now on in OUR house all THAI'S follow OUR rules or they are not welcome.. oddly enough they STILL visit us and seem to have NO trouble with respecting what WE consider to be polite in our house.

Much as you said, my wife has had more than enough and is counting the days until we can leave. Every day she sees at least ONE action by a Thai in public that she says to me if we live here I am so worried that he will end up like that. Even with the knowledge that we as parents have to take responsibility for his social skills, but she just worries that seeing such insanity over and over in public will somehow make our job that much harder and I guess I have to agree that she does have a point.

So yeah all you guys that think every thing is just perfect they way it is and it's cool for so much rudeness and common sense to be ignored you keep living in those shells and enjoy the ride. We and a large majority of our mixed couple friends are speeding up our exit plans to get out of this place. You can keep it, wonderful wonderful place to visit, but trying to raise a family here No thanks.... we will vote with our feet and taking our tax dollars elsewhere.....

[phetaroi]

1. As one of the richest nations in the world, the U.S. can afford to be more generous during world calamities. However, when the president of the U.S. insists on saying -- as they all always do -- that Americans are the most generous people in the world...well, baloney, and much of the generosity has strings or expectations attached to it. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not pure generosity.

Actually, you are wrong here.  Americans are by far the most generous people in the world.  Not the US government (for which assistance often does come with the strings you mentioned attached.)  The Japanese government, for example, gives a higher percentage of its GNP as international aid than does the US government. And to bring this to the local level, for the tsunami, governments such as that of Sweden and the UK gave much more per capita than the US government did.  But as individuals, Americans pony up a far greater percentage, and that aid is truly given from the heart.  From rock groups raising money for relief in Chile to a nine-year old girl raising several million dollars by organizing other students for aid to Haiti, this is part of the American consciousness.  And between the US individuals and the government, yes, Americans are the most "generous" people in the world.

I'm willing to be convinced, but it'll need some data to back it up. And you'll need to leave out practically all donations given by religious groups.

I found this:

The March 4-10, 2006 issue of The Economist gives a table of private donations to poor countries by country, as a percentage of GDP (for 2003). The data comes from the OECD, which tracks 22 countries' aid (but only 21 of which are listed). The graph supplied shows the percentage of the giving attributed to tax breaks, which appears to be close to half for the top 14 countries. The top percentage of GDP is 0.20%, for Norway, where somewhere between a fourth and a third is attributed to tax breaks.

The 21 countries, from most to least generous:

1. Norway (0.20%)

2. Ireland

3. Switzerland (just under 0.10%)

4. Netherlands

5. Canada

6. Australia

7. United States (just over 0.05%)

8. Belgium (about 0.05%)

9. Germany

10. Austria

11. Britain (just under 0.025%)

12. Spain

13. France

14. New Zealand

15. Denmark

16. Sweden

17. Finland

18. Japan

19. Portugal (no visible bar on the graph)

20. Greece

21. Italy

Edited March 18, 2010 by phetaroi

[Dont Panic]

Have not read all posts, so this may have been covered already.....

In the work place and at home, Thais are ruled by a strict hierarchy. 'Nong' is subservient to 'Pii' and so in the work place or at home, one should always be conscience of those elder and in a position of higher power or respect. When out and about on the street this hierarchy disappears. There is no longer any need to stoop or wai or for that matter hold a door open for someone. And if stopping abruptly in the street and turning around suddenly annoys a member of the public (farang or not) – well what does it matter they are a stranger and not their mum or boss.

Having said this it doesn't relieve the frustration much when things happen.

Just my thoughts....

[Furbie]

1. As one of the richest nations in the world, the U.S. can afford to be more generous during world calamities. However, when the president of the U.S. insists on saying -- as they all always do -- that Americans are the most generous people in the world...well, baloney, and much of the generosity has strings or expectations attached to it. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not pure generosity.

Actually, you are wrong here. Americans are by far the most generous people in the world. Not the US government (for which assistance often does come with the strings you mentioned attached.) The Japanese government, for example, gives a higher percentage of its GNP as international aid than does the US government. And to bring this to the local level, for the tsunami, governments such as that of Sweden and the UK gave much more per capita than the US government did. But as individuals, Americans pony up a far greater percentage, and that aid is truly given from the heart. From rock groups raising money for relief in Chile to a nine-year old girl raising several million dollars by organizing other students for aid to Haiti, this is part of the American consciousness. And between the US individuals and the government, yes, Americans are the most "generous" people in the world.

I'm willing to be convinced, but it'll need some data to back it up. And you'll need to leave out practically all donations given by religious groups.

I found this:

The March 4-10, 2006 issue of The Economist gives a table of private donations to poor countries by country, as a percentage of GDP (for 2003). The data comes from the OECD, which tracks 22 countries' aid (but only 21 of which are listed). The graph supplied shows the percentage of the giving attributed to tax breaks, which appears to be close to half for the top 14 countries. The top percentage of GDP is 0.20%, for Norway, where somewhere between a fourth and a third is attributed to tax breaks.

The 21 countries, from most to least generous:

1. Norway (0.20%)

2. Ireland

3. Switzerland (just under 0.10%)

4. Netherlands

5. Canada

6. Australia

7. United States (just over 0.05%)

8. Belgium (about 0.05%)

9. Germany

10. Austria

11. Britain (just under 0.025%)

12. Spain

13. France

14. New Zealand

15. Denmark

16. Sweden

17. Finland

18. Japan

19. Portugal (no visible bar on the graph)

20. Greece

21. Italy

Prepare to be concinved. Take a look at the study done in 2009 on global philanthropy (https://www.hudson.org/files/documents/Inde...nces%202009.pdf). This report also shows GDP vs actual doallars given - you will notice a pretty large gap when you look at actual money.

Also, why would you leave out religion? Although I don't agree with much religious giving, even the Red Cross is a quasi religious organization, as is the Salvation Army (probably the best charity around in terms of overheads). Anyway, of the US $235 billion American gave to other countries in 2007, only US $8.6 billion was through religious organziations - even removing that, the US is still the biggest, by far. Norway's government gave US $3.73 billion in 2007. Like many things in America, we prefer to do it through the private sector.

[phetaroi]

Prepare to be concinved. Take a look at the study done in 2009 on global philanthropy (https://www.hudson.org/files/documents/Inde...nces%202009.pdf). This report also shows GDP vs actual doallars given - you will notice a pretty large gap when you look at actual money.

Also, why would you leave out religion? Although I don't agree with much religious giving, even the Red Cross is a quasi religious organization, as is the Salvation Army (probably the best charity around in terms of overheads). Anyway, of the US $235 billion American gave to other countries in 2007, only US $8.6 billion was through religious organziations - even removing that, the US is still the biggest, by far. Norway's government gave US $3.73 billion in 2007. Like many things in America, we prefer to do it through the private sector.

When a president says, "Americans are...", I guess it depends on what he is talking about. And, in terms of my comments, it depends on what I am talking about.

I'm not talking about Bill Gates and people like him, a few of whom contribute millions and millions and skew the statistics.

I'm not talking about religious groups, for whose giving is often, if not always, with a catch. To some degree or another, gifts from religious organizations are merely ways to buy converts. I am sure you won't agree. But, I've seen it. To give you one example, not far from where I lived in the Virginia suburbs of Washington there was a rather poor neighborhood made up of primarily immigrants from El Salvador, who lived in small 2-3 bedroom apartments, usually 3-8 in a bedroom. The Mormons (and they're just one example) are all over that neighborhood -- helping, donating, feeding...and proselytizing. It's not generosity for the sake of generosity. I count as my best friends a couple of people who are born again Christians. They told me that their charity work going down to the Gulf for several years after Katrina was in part pure generosity and in part an effort to bring people "into the flock".

I'm talking about everyday people who give directly or to charities with no hook.

[RickBradford]

Singapore is the ideal laboratory for watching this process in action.

As a small, tightly controlled nation, the government is expert in social engineering, and is forever instigating civic campaigns like "Courtesy: make everyone's journey better!", "Smile! Show that Singapore is a happy community!"

These exhortations are usually presented by a funny cartoon animal, and splashed all over buses and trains.

Result? Moral exhortation has zero effect on the Singaporeans, so the government is always forced to resort to Plan B, which is threats and fines. "No spitting." "Smokers will be prosecuted and fined up to $5,000.", "No pissing in the shallow end."

Civic values go hand in hand with individualism. If you don't regard yourself as an individual worth respecting, then you won't treat anybody else as though they in turn deserved respect, and so there is no base upon which to build civic values.

Most Asian countries are still locked into a rigid family-style hierarchy (role/rule, in social theory terms) which doesn't encompass a wider community. You play your role inside the family, which dominates your worldview, so everybody outside the family has no relevance.

Even though Singapore is among the richest and most advanced Asian countries, this attitude is still on show wherever you go -- aunties holding conversations at the top or bottom of escalators, commuters barging into trains and buses, spiking your eye out with umbrellas, never looking where they're going and expecting you to get out of the way.

Individualism widens the horizons of your worldview. Your respect is extended to everyone else, not just family members. You offer respect and expect to receive it in return, summed up as "Hey, don't diss me, man".

No doubt this attitude will reach Thailand, perhaps has already with some Westernised and educated Thais, but these changes are generational in nature i.e long-term.

[StreetCowboy]

Singapore is the ideal laboratory for watching this process in action.

As a small, tightly controlled nation, the government is expert in social engineering, and is forever instigating civic campaigns like "Courtesy: make everyone's journey better!", "Smile! Show that Singapore is a happy community!"

These exhortations are usually presented by a funny cartoon animal, and splashed all over buses and trains.

Result? Moral exhortation has zero effect on the Singaporeans, so the government is always forced to resort to Plan B, which is threats and fines. "No spitting." "Smokers will be prosecuted and fined up to $5,000.", "No pissing in the shallow end."

Civic values go hand in hand with individualism. If you don't regard yourself as an individual worth respecting, then you won't treat anybody else as though they in turn deserved respect, and so there is no base upon which to build civic values.

Most Asian countries are still locked into a rigid family-style hierarchy (role/rule, in social theory terms) which doesn't encompass a wider community. You play your role inside the family, which dominates your worldview, so everybody outside the family has no relevance.

Even though Singapore is among the richest and most advanced Asian countries, this attitude is still on show wherever you go -- aunties holding conversations at the top or bottom of escalators, commuters barging into trains and buses, spiking your eye out with umbrellas, never looking where they're going and expecting you to get out of the way.

Individualism widens the horizons of your worldview. Your respect is extended to everyone else, not just family members. You offer respect and expect to receive it in return, summed up as "Hey, don't diss me, man".

No doubt this attitude will reach Thailand, perhaps has already with some Westernised and educated Thais, but these changes are generational in nature i.e long-term.

On the contrary I find Singaporeans generally polite, friendly and helpful, just like Thais. I have no doubt that you could find rude and obnoxious singaporeaans, and because of a personal dislike for the accent, I can find them particularly irritating. But finders keepers, I say. Better to find them pleasant and helpful, and thus they will be. Your experience of other races and people is dictated by your image of them - perception is the right word I suppose - and it could be used to mean both experience and image in this case, which would be a tautology...

Anyway, think they are rude, and so you will find them. Think they are polite, and thus they shall be. I am lucky to always travel to such pleasant countries with such polite people.

SC

[RickBradford]

Your experience of other races and people is dictated by your image of them

No, my experience of them is dictated by my experience of them.

I've seen Singaporean women push a blind man into the gutter just so they could get on the bus before him. I've experienced Singapore families in a food court, dump their dirty plates on my table because they couldn't be bothered to take them back to the washing-up area. And much more.

Better to find them pleasant and helpful, and thus they will be.

No, they won't. Not necessarily.

I have several Singaporean friends, and they agree that the behaviour of their countrymen falls well short of what it should be. Even the local press rails against what it describes as 'ugly Singaporeans' due to their bad behaviour (especially when travelling overseas.)

[elkangorito]

Most of the rudeness reported by foreigners seems to relate to a lack of 'perceived' logic. I concur with this.

Further, I do believe that such 'illogical' rudeness is not necessarily intentional. As such, the issue may need further discussion.

Some people in this thread have reported that their Thai wives can't stand Thai rudeness. I can understand this as exposure to a different country/lifestyle can quite often lead to a change in one's thinking.

Many years ago when I first arrived here, a South African friend (who is married to a Thai lady & has been for about 10 years) told me, "Nothing gets into or out of Thailand." He was talking about news & general information. I do believe that since he told me this, things have changed a little bit. Nonetheless, he was refering to the lack of global 'awareness' amongst Thais. Combine this with the cultural indoctrination placed upon Thais (from birth) & you end up with someone who not only doesn't know anything about other people (or countries), they also have little need to WANT to understand anything outside of the 'cultural rules'.

This is not their fault. It is the fault of the government (& it's ministries).

A Thai colleague once said to me, "I often think that some things we do (Thais), block our country from progressing." I didn't offer an explanation but if I did, I would've said, "It's the little things that people do that matter the most" & maybe "The fact that you are questioning your culture is a sure sign that Thailand is willing to accept the existence of the rest of the world."

I did suggest to my colleague that simple human respect is not something that is taught...it is 'built into' every human from birth. The choice to "use/act upon" such a belief is up to the individual. She agreed with me on this point.

I really don't think that most Thais are purposely rude. They are simply 'following orders'.

It's up to others (this includes the rest of the world) to inform Thais of the need of 'common sense' & also the need to stop following orders (start to think independently). Once this happens & it will as soon as the old farts die off, more 'thinkers' will become apparent. This will undoubtedly annoy the puppet masters but nonetheless create a more 'homogenous' society.

Perceived 'rudeness' should therefore be reduced as Thais become more aware of everything that surrounds their lives. They will therefore be exposed to, for the first time, 'do unto others as you would have others do unto you'.

Edited March 26, 2010 by elkangorito