Uk Ex-pats Pensions

[tgeezer]

You know what? It always amuses me when people dismiss these sorts of articles with the standard "don't worry about it" reply.

The same reply that was given 10 years ago.......... "dont worry about not taxing/insuring your car. You will be unlucky if you get caught"

There must be an AWFUL lot of unlucky people these days then!!!!

Once the DVLA went to a computer based system you can even be fined for having your car off the road and not telling them....such is the system they have in place.

Once they start using anti terrorist laws to fine/prosecute people for having their bin lids open, for lying about their place of residence to get their kids a decent education in a decent school outside their catchment area, or for fining dog owners for not picking up their dog's shit, i think IS the time to worry.....don't you??

Penkoprod

I am glad that I have at least amused someone!

I wonder if the comment "don't worry ..." was made in response to the implementation of the DVLA computer system which did no more than replace a paper system already in place, and do it very well too.

This new system has a greater chance of failing than not, simply because they will try to make it capable of doing all the things you list above, and it will unravel and not even serve the original purpose, if anyone remembers what that was. That is my prediction, I say that you shouldn't worry about it because I don't think it is likely to happen in any form which will effect us.

Edited March 17, 2010 by tgeezer

[Penkoprod]

This is another fine example of the boys in the European club financially protecting each other. Of course, what it comes down to is prejudice - we will penalise you because you have chosen to spend your retirement in a territory of which we do not approve, despite the fact that you paid the same NI contributions as the other guys in "approved" territories or the UK itself. My perception is that it all has to do with the tax which the chancellor is NOT receiving from those of us living in the "non approved" territories. Think about this, of every 100 pounds that you are paid in state pension in the UK, you are paying tax back (in VAT and various other taxes), a very large percentage of the original 100 quid. Petrol, smokes (if you're still a user), all drinks, road tax and on and on it goes. Can anyone come up with a figure of what the real purchasing power of the pound might be, exclusive of the various attached taxes? My bet is that the true purchasing power of the pound, in the UK, is very small indeed.

And if we care to go further, into the disgraceful withdrawal of the NHS from those of us who have been overseas for more than a few months, I have an old P45 which explains to me that part of my NI contribution is destined for the NHS and the benefits which such contribution entitles me to. Except in an emergency situation, this no longer helps me. Guys, you've been shafted by the professionals. Don't ever believe that your country of birth gives a shit about you or anyone associated with you.

Comments?

Nail hit firmly on the head

[prodriver]

I would like to know what nationality the judges were that voted against the UK state pension to be unfrozen. It appears that many european countries do allow their citizens to receive whatever changes there are to the state pension regardless of where they live in the world.

I am 63 years old so I don't get my UK state pension yet. However, I do receive a small state pension from Sweden (as from the age of 61) due to me having lived and worked there some years ago. The fact that I live in Thailand does not matter and I have received increases in my pension but I have just received notification that this year my pension will be reduced by 3% due to the state of the Swedish economy. I can't argue that and it seems fair to me that I get the increases when they're available but have to endure the reductions when they are not.

As regards to them knowing where I live, the Swedes seem to have that covered too. They send me a form each year to complete. This is to confirm that I'm still alive and has to be stamped by an officer in the Swedish Consulate. If I were to tell them that I lived in the UK, that form would be sent there. That would mean that I would have to make a trip to the UK to get it signed and verified each year. This also means that I have to come clean to the UK authorities about where I live when I'm due to receive my UK pension....with both Sweden and the UK being members of the EU I feel sure it would be quite simple for them to cross-check my whereabouts if I were to give false information to the UK authorities.

[Penkoprod]

I would like to know what nationality the judges were that voted against the UK state pension to be unfrozen. It appears that many european countries do allow their citizens to receive whatever changes there are to the state pension regardless of where they live in the world.

This ruling was the final, final ruling, after it had been through every level of UK court...right up to House of Lords. It was also "our side" that brought the case to the European Court in the first place.

So the nationality of the judges doesnt factor in it, i wouldnt think.

All the ECHR did was give a ruling on whether UK law on the subject was in breach of human rights.

I've often wondered what the situation for other European pensioners was/is, and, from what you say, it confirms my belief that both the UK government and its taxpayers see expat pensioners as traitors.

People should remember this next time Land Of Hope & Glory, or any other patriotic bullshit music breaks out around them.

In the immortal style of Eddie Royle....... "patriotism, MY ARSE !!!!"

Penkoprod

[yabaaaa]

What happens if I go to France on a ferry then fly from Paris to Bangkok? As far as the Uk knows Im "in France" or have they linked all the European computers together yet?

[BazilFox]

<br />What happens if I go to France on a ferry then fly from Paris to Bangkok? As far as the Uk knows Im "in France" or have they linked all the European computers together yet?<br />

<br /><br /><br />

If you aint in the County you are not entitled to it. I expect you are claiming cold allowance also?

I think it fair and just, if you are in the Country then you are entitled and can spend it in Blightey.

[Penkoprod]

What happens if I go to France on a ferry then fly from Paris to Bangkok? As far as the Uk knows Im "in France" or have they linked all the European computers together yet?

Good question, but i would think that once your passport gets swiped at the check-in desk, the info DOES go to your country of birth.

Penkoprod

[PhilHarries]

But surely all you pensioners have had a MASSIVE pension increase based on the lower cost of living in Thailand. Just think, if you were still there it would be 300+ Baht for a pack of ciggies, 150+ Baht for a pint down the pub (and you have to go outside for one of those cigs), 250+ Baht a liter for gasoline and heating bills to make your eyes water.

I'd pray the government don't catch on to this or they'd be reducing your pensions.

Like others have remarked, it's not like they've just changed the rules and if you don't like it you can go back and join in the fun with the other old folk down the community center.

So there's your choice, put up and stop in Thailand in the sun or go back. Up2U.

[Rinrada]

Get a Bank account in Angeles City...duel agreement with UK and OK for a long weekend...init

[Penkoprod]

But surely all you pensioners have had a MASSIVE pension increase based on the lower cost of living in Thailand. Just think, if you were still there it would be 300+ Baht for a pack of ciggies, 150+ Baht for a pint down the pub (and you have to go outside for one of those cigs), 250+ Baht a liter for gasoline and heating bills to make your eyes water.

I'd pray the government don't catch on to this or they'd be reducing your pensions.

Like others have remarked, it's not like they've just changed the rules and if you don't like it you can go back and join in the fun with the other old folk down the community center.

So there's your choice, put up and stop in Thailand in the sun or go back. Up2U.

Well i cant argue with that, tbh.

I just worked out how much just sitting at home, and not going out is costing me each week. council tax, water rates, and house insurance come to about £35 a week. Car outside in the drive costs £15 a week, just stood there. No petrol/running costs in the calculation.

Like i have said previously, the younger one is when one gets the kick in the gonads, the better the long term benefit is. See it as a wake up call, and plan round it. Its not going to change.

Penkoprod

[thaimate]

When this came up months ago i said that it was almost certain we would not get the increases ,unfortunatly i have been proved right,as for them knowing where you live the computer systems are all pants and years behind completion ,if they cant catch terrorists ,percy the pensioner will slip through .believe me.

[Penkoprod]

But l think the argument is their list of countries you CAN live and get an increase OUTSIDE the EU.

Has anyone got any info about these agreements that these countries have made with UK, in order for the UK pensioners to enjoy the increases?

I know there is a list of the actual countries, but i am puzzled as to how they came about, and what are their makeup. I also know that the one between the UK and Austraia ended a while ago, and that UK pensioners there dont now get any increases

Penkoprod

Edited March 17, 2010 by Penkoprod

[MB1]

But l think the argument is their list of countries you CAN live and get an increase OUTSIDE the EU.

Has anyone got any info about these agreements that these countries have made with UK, in order for the UK pensioners to enjoy the increases?

I know there is a list of the actual countries, but i am puzzled as to how they came about, and what are their makeup. I also know that the one between the UK and Austraia ended a while ago, and that UK pensioners there dont now get any increases

Penkoprod

From an article I have been reading the main aim and intentions of the reciprocal agreement was to provide levels of co-ordination between countries the UK made these reciprocal agreements with, the intention/aim was if I'm reading correctly, to protect social security for workers moving between 2 countries who had the reciprocal agreements in place.

The reciprocal agreement was in place to prevent/stop employers, employees and self employed having to pay social security contributions to home country and country of employment at the same time.

Have provided a link to article below for you or anyone else who may care to read up on it. HTH

http://www.britishpensions.org.au/snbt-01457.pdf

Also a list from article which provides a list of countries with a reciprocal agreement..

The countries and British Overseas Territories with a reciprocal agreement where

annual uprating increases are payable are: Barbados; Bermuda; Bosnia-

Herzegovina; Croatia; Guernsey; Isle of Man; Israel; Jamaica; Jersey; Mauritius;

Montenegro; the Philippines; Serbia; Turkey; the USA; and the former Yugoslav

Republic of Macedonia.

Edited March 17, 2010 by MB1

[richardjm65]

Surely, PhilHarries, the question is not to do with the cost of living in this country, or any other of the "non-approved" countries. It is to do with the state pension which is paid to us pensioners if we have paid the same in NI contributions as anyone in "approved territories" or the UK itself. I do not recall (during my working days in the UK), seeing in any piece of official paperwork, a caveat stating that "we will mess with your pension entitlement if you don't live in a place we like when you retire".

Personally, I started work in S.E.Asia back in 1972 and have been here, (except for a couple of years in the mid-80's), ever since. Here come pension time and I made up as many of the NI contributions as I was allowed to do and finally managed to qualify for almost 70% of basic state pension, for which I was well pleased. In those 30-something years of overseas work, I was not draining the NHS with real or imagined illnesses, for which treatment, (says an old P45), part of my NI contributions were destined.

Do you truly believe that a government is right, (morally), to say that the amount of state pension you receive is dependant upon the territory where you choose to live? I would say that if I am entitled to a pension of (say) 100 pounds a week, it is of no concern to the chancellor how and where I choose to spend that entitlement. That is why my contention is that this anomaly is prejudice against the people who live in "unapproved" territories.

The fact is that expat pensioners in "unapproved" territories are a soft target for the Whitehall money mongers because we basically have no voice, no real representation. We are unlikely to find support within the UK because we are out of it - usually living in places which are far more conditionally benign than the UK.

Either which way you cut it, there is no excuse for this travesty.

[ukrules]

That is why my contention is that this anomaly is prejudice against the people who live in "unapproved" territories.

Another way of putting it would be to say that Thailand is on the British governments 'shit list' and they don't want people to live here for whatever random reason they have and they won't fund you to the full extent of your expected entitlement regardless of what you have contributed in the past.

They clearly favour the philippines over Thailand.

I would like to see the nationalities of the judges involved in this decision and a full list of which countries are acceptable to the British government and more importantly which countries are on the shit list.

Edited March 17, 2010 by ukrules

[MB1]

That is why my contention is that this anomaly is prejudice against the people who live in "unapproved" territories.

Another way of putting it would be to say that Thailand is on the British governments 'shit list' and they don't want people to live here for whatever random reason they have and they won't fund you to the full extent of your expected entitlement regardless of what you have contributed in the past.

They clearly favour the philippines over Thailand.

I would like to see the nationalities of the judges involved in this decision and a full list of which countries are acceptable to the British government and more importantly which countries are on the shit list.

Below a list from article link I posted in previous post, sorry don't know the names of the Judges.

Annual uprating increases are payable to United Kingdom pensioners living in any

EEA country and Switzerland in accordance with the European Community’s (EC)

Social Security Regulations (EC1408/71). The EC regulations effectively supersede

the United Kingdom's social security agreements with the following states: Austria;

Belgium; Cyprus; Denmark; Finland; France; Germany; Gibraltar; Iceland; Ireland;

Italy; Luxembourg; Malta; Netherlands; Norway; Portugal; Slovenia; Spain; Sweden;

and Switzerland.

The United Kingdom does not have reciprocal social security agreements with the

following EU/EEA states but annual upratings are paid in accordance with the EC

regulations: Bulgaria; Czech Republic; Estonia; Greece; Hungary; Latvia;

Liechtenstein; Lithuania; Poland; Romania; and Slovakia.

The above list must mean to you that any country not on the list must be on the UK governments shit list, apart from the countries that have the reciprocal agreement. By the way I'd say that the government don't clearly favour the Phillipenes over Thailand, IMO it's just the case that the UK have no reciprocal agreement with Thailand.

Most of the UK's reciprocal agreements are more than 25 years old, so if your correct about Thailand being on a shit list then it's been on it for a long time.

To Richardjm65...quoting you...

"Either which way you cut it, there is no excuse for this travesty"

IMO there is no travesty, what the real problem is, is that most people don't understand what the reciprocal agreement is about and certainly have no idea whatsoever what the rules are.

Edited March 17, 2010 by MB1

[Penkoprod]

Cheers for the PDF link, MB1 :D

VERY enlightening, and not just for the reciprical agreements, either.

People should read that before blithering on about entitlements, contributions, etc

Perhaps even those with rose tinted glasses will finally see what their country REALLY thinks of them

Penkoprod

Edited March 17, 2010 by Penkoprod

[F1fanatic]

I realise I'm being v simplistic, but I genuinely don't understand how we can be paying tax on our private pensions, but not entitled to NHS care, increases on basic pension (once payable) etc.

Why the hel_l are we paying tax??

[Penkoprod]

I would like to see the nationalities of the judges involved in this decision and a full list of which countries are acceptable to the British government and more importantly which countries are on the shit list.

Which decision would that be, then?

The same one that's been through every BRITISH court including the (VERY British) House of Lords, where the answer was the same "NO!" before the pensioners side of the argument put it to a European one? So asking what nationalities the judges were in this LAST decision, seems moot........no?

Red the PDF link provided by MB1

Penkoprod

[ukrules]

The above list must mean to you that any country not on the list must be on the UK governments shit list, apart from the countries that have the reciprocal agreement. By the way I'd say that the government don't clearly favour the Phillipenes over Thailand, IMO it's just the case that the UK have no reciprocal agreement with Thailand.

Perhaps a shit list is the wrong way of looking at it, especially as the list of countries favoured by the British government is quite small.

With this information made clear to the people who live in the UK I would imagine that when planning retirements the Philippines will come in more favourably every time. I don't know if Thailand values people retiring here like some other countries do but I imagine they would find it annoying if people started choosing another country due to the way the British government penalise people for living in Thailand over the Philippines.

This would seem to be a diplomatic issue for the Thai's if people decided to stop coming here on the retirement visas, especially if the number of people retiring to the Philippines suddenly increases by a large number.

[MB1]

Surely, PhilHarries, the question is not to do with the cost of living in this country, or any other of the "non-approved" countries. It is to do with the state pension which is paid to us pensioners if we have paid the same in NI contributions as anyone in "approved territories" or the UK itself. I do not recall (during my working days in the UK), seeing in any piece of official paperwork, a caveat stating that "we will mess with your pension entitlement if you don't live in a place we like when you retire".

Personally, I started work in S.E.Asia back in 1972 and have been here, (except for a couple of years in the mid-80's), ever since. Here come pension time and I made up as many of the NI contributions as I was allowed to do and finally managed to qualify for almost 70% of basic state pension, for which I was well pleased. In those 30-something years of overseas work, I was not draining the NHS with real or imagined illnesses, for which treatment, (says an old P45), part of my NI contributions were destined.

Do you truly believe that a government is right, (morally), to say that the amount of state pension you receive is dependant upon the territory where you choose to live? I would say that if I am entitled to a pension of (say) 100 pounds a week, it is of no concern to the chancellor how and where I choose to spend that entitlement. That is why my contention is that this anomaly is prejudice against the people who live in "unapproved" territories.

The fact is that expat pensioners in "unapproved" territories are a soft target for the Whitehall money mongers because we basically have no voice, no real representation. We are unlikely to find support within the UK because we are out of it - usually living in places which are far more conditionally benign than the UK.

Either which way you cut it, there is no excuse for this travesty.

You are right, and those who say it's cheap to live in LOS, so don't complain, &lt;deleted&gt; pal, many countries not on the UK list are just as expensive to live as the UK, think about those OAP's. grrrrr.

I'm not speaking for all, just myself and my opinions on this debate, IMO those UK pensioners who choose to leave their country of birth to live in a country elsewhere and contribute to that economy by spending whatever they wish to in that country but contribute nothing to the UK economy do not deserve the same levels of payment/yearly increase than a UK pensioner who remains in his/her own country and continues to contribute to the UK economy.

So I for 1 am thinking of UK pensioners, but I'm with the ones who continue to contribute to the UK economy, not the ones who chose to leave and live elsewhere and who are now complaining in their droves that due to the UK pound being worth a lot less, their finding it harder to make ends meet and may have to return to the UK... Where I come from you make your bed, you lie on it, what really pis*ses me off are the pensioners who chooose to live out of the UK during the winter and still claim winter fuel allowance.

Edited March 17, 2010 by MB1

[PhilHarries]

Surely, PhilHarries, the question is not to do with the cost of living in this country, or any other of the "non-approved" countries. It is to do with the state pension which is paid to us pensioners if we have paid the same in NI contributions as anyone in "approved territories" or the UK itself.

I agree but, unfortunately, HM government does not and I wouldn't look to David C. and his boys to change anything. No government is going to give away any amount of money if it can avoid doing so. You, and I, don't live in the UK any more so, presumably, we don't vote (even if we do our numbers are insignificant) therefore as far as any political party is concerned we can go to hel_l. And don't look for any sympathy from those, working and retired, still back in the UK because they'll tell you to look for it in the dictionary - it's just before syphillus.

As for the European court of human rights, they're too busy ruling in favour of illegal immigrants and other low life scum and they care even less about expats.

I do not recall (during my working days in the UK), seeing in any piece of official paperwork, a caveat stating that "we will mess with your pension entitlement if you don't live in a place we like when you retire".

Well you know, as well as I, the answer to that. Something along the lines of ignorance being no excuse. Anyway, when you set out on your road to riches , did you in your wildest dreams think you'd be retiring to a place halfway around the world? Also did you ever give a thought to pensions?

Maybe you did, but I didn't.

FWIW I don't get this "reciprocal agreement" cr@p either. Why should there need to be any form of agreement? As you say you have paid the same amount in as a pensioner living in the UK why should you not expect the same out? After all it's a good deal for them, if you fall sick it's not the NHS that gets the burden.

But then where exactly in the brochure for this journey called "life" does it say it will be fair?

[F1fanatic]

MB1 - you're avoiding the point I'm making.

The personal pension I'm paid IS TAXED IN THE UK.

Bearing this in mind, what am I paying for??

When, one day, I get the state pension - I've paid for it throughout my working life. I feel I deserve the same deal as those choosing to stay in the UK having contributed throughout my working life, and having paid in taxes FAR more than I ever received in benefits (never having children).

[MB1]

MB1 - you're avoiding the point I'm making.

The personal pension I'm paid IS TAXED IN THE UK.

Bearing this in mind, what am I paying for??

When, one day, I get the state pension - I've paid for it throughout my working life. I feel I deserve the same deal as those choosing to stay in the UK having contributed throughout my working life, and having paid in taxes FAR more than I ever received in benefits (never having children).

No I'm not avoiding the point, the point some are avoiding on here are the rules with regards to the reciprocal agreement and why the reciprocal agreement was formed.

You and others using this topic, if reading info given, know that there is no reciprocal agreement with Thailand so if you or others choose to retire to Thailand then you know that when leaving the UK your pension will be frozen as per the rules.

That's your choice remember...Up to you, you choose...

A list has been posted with regards to which countries have a reciprocal agreement, also a link has been posted which is from the House Of Commons Libary which gives much info on Pension entitlements of expats frozen pensions, and also gives reasons why when leaving the UK the pension will be frozen.

I'll post the link again, have a good read and enjoy.HTH

http://www.britishpensions.org.au/snbt-01457.pdf

Edited March 17, 2010 by MB1

[Penkoprod]

MB1 - you're avoiding the point I'm making.

The personal pension I'm paid IS TAXED IN THE UK.

Bearing this in mind, what am I paying for??

When, one day, I get the state pension - I've paid for it throughout my working life. I feel I deserve the same deal as those choosing to stay in the UK having contributed throughout my working life, and having paid in taxes FAR more than I ever received in benefits (never having children).

Simply solved...the contribution payment was taken BEFORE tax. Therefore tax free. In other words....you owe them !!!!!

Crafty, and cunning by the government perhaps, but thats the way they have been doing it since the NI system started.

Best you can do is not rely on any pension, but see it as a bonus to your plans

Penkoprod

[F1fanatic]

I'm not talking about the original payments - I'm talking about the pension paid NOW. I only receive it AFTER TAX!!

I say again, what am I paying the tax for now I'm living in Thailand and not entitled to any benefits or any increases in state pension once its finally payable?

[Penkoprod]

I'm not talking about the original payments - I'm talking about the pension paid NOW. I only receive it AFTER TAX!!

I say again, what am I paying the tax for now I'm living in Thailand and not entitled to any benefits or any increases in state pension once its finally payable?

So what you are saying is you want it tax free?

If you are then can i have a bit of what you are smoking

You are paying taxes because you owe it (in the GB governments eyes)

There are only 2 certain things in life..death and taxes remember?

As far as GB is concerned you had the FREE WILL to move wherever you wanted,and you chose Thailand. Your decision..... so i assume you must have done your homework on the pros andd cons of moving there. Didnt you?

Like i keep saying......truth hurts and reality bites.

Penkoprod

[MB1]

I'm not talking about the original payments - I'm talking about the pension paid NOW. I only receive it AFTER TAX!!

I say again, what am I paying the tax for now I'm living in Thailand and not entitled to any benefits or any increases in state pension once its finally payable?

Anyone qualifies for a State pension if he or she reaches pensionable age and satisfies the contribution conditions, meaning have you paid enough into the state pension pot with your national insurance contributions.

By the way a previous post said that ....

"When, one day, I get the state pension - I've paid for it throughout my working life."

That must mean that your yet not in receipt of a state pension, so what tax are you on about, as a state pension is taxable as pension income but as your not yet receiving it you must be paying tax for something else whilst your living in Thailand as you said you are living in Thailand in the post I'm replying to.

What you pay in tax is not an NI contribution, it's tax..

[F1fanatic]

The tax is payable on a PERSONAL pension, not a state pension.

Incidentally, when my ex and I moved to Thailand we were assured by the tax authorities that we wouldn't have to pay tax on the pension as we lived in Thailand. They changed their mind once we moved here.....

Edited March 17, 2010 by F1fanatic

[Penkoprod]

The tax is payable on a PERSONAL pension, not a state pension.

Incidentally, when my ex and I moved to Thailand we were assured by the tax authorities that we wouldn't have to pay tax on the pension as we lived in Thailand. They changed their mind once we moved here.....

No, its payable on INCOME. Thats why its called ........... INCOME tax

"Assured by" and "tax authorities" shouldnt be in the same book......let alove sentence

Like i say, reality bites.

If this is the only kick you have had in the goolies from "Team GB", then you can count yourself lucky