Law: No Rights For Teachers At Private Schools

[DragonQuest]

The burmese janitor, cats and dogs have more rights at your school than you lol

[Scott]

Two posts have been deleted, one which is inflammatory and the other a response to it.

This isn't tolerated here.

[thunder30101]

I sympathise with your situation, but lets look at some facts here. We sign a one year contract for work which means after 12 months our work is finished unless we are offered another contract to continue working, same as any other country in the world where ever I have done contract work, now why do you think any employer owes you anything after the contract has finshed ??? I wouldnt give you a months salary for not working, you knew when the contract finished, if they dont want to renew your contract its time to move on and find other work. It sucks but thats why its called contract work, a limited time of employment. My next thought is that you havent quite figured out that you are falang yet and what that means. If you want to go giving away your money to lawyers to fight something that in the end you will lose then please dont be screaming about being ripped off. We are just guests here, basically a necessary evil to the thais that can be replaced at any moment by the next plane load getting off in bangkok. The sooner people realise this the better life will be for them here. I am quite happy with my job and never worry about getting sacked, why you ask ? because I dont cause problems, dont try to change the system, and basically do what they want me too, oh and smile alot lol. One final thought is that no one forces any of us to be here there are lots of other teaching opportunities that pay way better than thailand, but for me I like it here.

[Scott]

I think most of us cease being a guest when we get a non-immigrant B visa and a work permit. At that point you are employed. There are laws that cover this and hopefully we will find out what they are.

[thunder30101]

What laws in thailand are not corrupted to the point of being useless ? My point is you are a guest here even when you have all the visas and work permits, they dont make you a thai and the sooner people accept that the better life will be for them. So lets say this person gets a lawyer and raises a stink over a months pay, do you think any other school in his area will hire him after that ??? What will he gain besides a months pay ? I know what he will lose, any other thai admin will not even look at him other than seeing he is trouble. mai pen rai my friend let it go and move on to a hopefully better job. Oh and for those thinking about unions and associations, nice thought except like I said before there is a planeload to replace you coming into bkk right now. The backbiting of academia has followed you here.

[Scott]

We are getting off-topic. This isn't really an opinion thread; it's a legal situation. The reasons for attempting to get severance pay may vary. I know of several people in a similar position as the OP and his colleagues. At least a few will not pursue severance because of the possibility of being 'blacklisted'. Others are seriously considering it because they have worked long enough that it is a sizable amount of money and because they have no intention of continuing to either live or work in Thailand.

[freeurmind2]

Afraid the story is the same in international schools, and I'm finding this out the hard way and a little too late.

I talked to an international labor lawyer who basically said school administrators DO NOT HAVE to explain to you their decision to kick you out after your contract is done. They are under no obligation to extend or renew your contract despite and in spite of your performance as a teacher. Local labor laws (supporting security of tenure based on performance) apply only to locals, not foreign workers, no matter what profession.

IOW, if the school director did not like the tie you wore back in September, your contract may not be renewed. No questions asked.

I certainly do not agree with this, but there you have it. Makes you wonder why anyone here expects farangs to beat a path to their doors to teach.

[freeurmind2]

What laws in thailand are not corrupted to the point of being useless ? My point is you are a guest here even when you have all the visas and work permits, they dont make you a thai and the sooner people accept that the better life will be for them. So lets say this person gets a lawyer and raises a stink over a months pay, do you think any other school in his area will hire him after that ??? What will he gain besides a months pay ? I know what he will lose, any other thai admin will not even look at him other than seeing he is trouble. mai pen rai my friend let it go and move on to a hopefully better job. Oh and for those thinking about unions and associations, nice thought except like I said before there is a planeload to replace you coming into bkk right now. The backbiting of academia has followed you here.

Someone said the discussion is focused on legalities.

While I find your comments to be factual, and rather helpful in coping with some future dilemma should it ever bite anyone in the arse, it adds salt to the wound. Also not a little bit self-righteous because, hey, you're not the one being knocked off your perch. And while you "like teaching here" there's the issue of hiring season being all but said and done, CA giving 23,000 teachers the pink slip (and I suppose other states will follow suit) PLUS a raging global economic downturn which keeps teachers rooted on their spots for the meantime. Not a good time to go 'mai pen rai' and "move on". Move on to where?

If and when OP gets his pay due, he will have to leave this LOS, no love lost actually. But he will have to face an even bigger challenge out there in the big bad world. Meantime, he's at least exploring legal options.

Edited March 21, 2010 by freeurmind2

[Scott]

There seems to be little doubt that teachers can be dismissed. Those reasons may or may not be fair, but it has to do with the conditions of release. We have varied opinions on whether or not severance is due to teachers.

In California many of the teachers released will have compensation due.

Thus far, we have one attorney saying "no compensation" and we have another saying "compensation due". We have a suggestion to talk to the MOE directly. It is likely the Ministry of Labor will be the ones who ultimately have to answer this question.

[paully]

Paullie -I am not only referring to the lawyer that mentioned this, but I also read it somewhere while researching this. I also remember reading it in a book that my friend lent me - it was highlighted.

I will deff look for it.

LB,

Yes, let's by all means wait for legal opinion.

The part I find difficult is that, as it was interpreted for you, it would mean that there would be no rights or redress for Thai teachers in private schools either and this would make a nonsense of their own established national labour protection laws. Yet the wording of the relevant section of the new law (assuming it was accurately translated) appears to be clear.

Regarding the matter of dismissals - let's face it, any employee in any nation can be dismissed by the employer.

The issue is whether the employee would be entitled to receive compensation for such dismissal, and, if so, how much the employer would have to pay in the particular circumstances. Employees are not unsackable.

Edited March 21, 2010 by paully

[lightbulb]

I sympathise with your situation, but lets look at some facts here. We sign a one year contract for work which means after 12 months our work is finished unless we are offered another contract to continue working, same as any other country in the world where ever I have done contract work, now why do you think any employer owes you anything after the contract has finshed ??? I wouldnt give you a months salary for not working, you knew when the contract finished, if they dont want to renew your contract its time to move on and find other work. It sucks but thats why its called contract work, a limited time of employment. My next thought is that you havent quite figured out that you are falang yet and what that means. If you want to go giving away your money to lawyers to fight something that in the end you will lose then please dont be screaming about being ripped off. We are just guests here, basically a necessary evil to the thais that can be replaced at any moment by the next plane load getting off in bangkok. The sooner people realise this the better life will be for them here. I am quite happy with my job and never worry about getting sacked, why you ask ? because I dont cause problems, dont try to change the system, and basically do what they want me too, oh and smile alot lol. One final thought is that no one forces any of us to be here there are lots of other teaching opportunities that pay way better than thailand, but for me I like it here.

Somebody once said that not everything is designed to go down a drain and these words seem apt here - yes I signed a contract for a year, and then another one. I expected a third after a great teaching year = btw a contract is also not design to go down the drain, that is why a contract, in any civilised country, is protected by law. And the law is there to protect both parties. This is the case here in Thailand too- except, the law was amended to exclude certain persons. And, No, this has nothing to do with the boring debates about farang vs Thai - this is an issue about fairness, about conscious and what is acceptable and what is not. And there are certain things one cannot just smile away.

And for the record, I am not a backpacker that can pack up my sarong and move on - I have a family and I am aware of "the Thai face" I have been wearing here for 9 years every time I leave my front door.

No, its not just a month's pay, or four or seven - its much more than that, its about the right of all people who work here, its also about the growing concern of schools exploiting this exclusion and you can smile as much as you like and lay as low as you wish - it still will not give you a shred of right when you are treated unfairlyand meanwhile, perhaps there are many who could not care less about their own integrity, but some value this highly and some people may be well versed in tucking it behind a smile, but in the end they are the ones betraying their own values and I wonder how that sits with who they actually are and question what they really stand for (if anything).

This is not about money or farangs, smiling or not - it has to do with a law that is supposed to protect ALL people and doesn't

[Scott]

Thanks for well-thought out and well-written post. It hits the nail on the head.

Where I work there has been a long tradition of the Thai admin informing me of who is headed to the chopping block. This usually occurs shortly after New Year's and it gives me a chance to sit down with teachers and let them know how they are perceived. The Admin doesn't like this because they are sure they will work even less, but it is the right thing to do because we are dealing with people's lives. Most teachers agree and see the school as a bad-fit for them. Most are professional and continue to do their job. But they plan accordingly and move on with their life.

For the educational program it is important that we retain as many people as possible. This provides continuity of the program and many of them improve a great deal in their second year of teaching. The teachers whose plan is to teach a year and then move on have, generally, little motivation to do well.

It takes time to learn the ins-and-outs of a school. What discipline is acceptable, how to grade, even where/when and how to get photocopies made.

This year, for some unknown reason, and may have to do with the topic of this thread, we had what I can only describe as a blood bath. The largest number of teachers in my long career at the school were not renewed. They were not warned and in a number of cases there is no good reason for them to be terminated. I doubt very much that the new ones replacing them will be better and thus it will not benefit the education of the children.

The unfair treatment of teachers will negatively affect the education of students in private schools.

[Phatcharanan]

Where I work there has been a long tradition of the Thai admin informing me of who is headed to the chopping block.

This year, for some unknown reason, and may have to do with the topic of this thread, we had what I can only describe as a blood bath. The largest number of teachers in my long career at the school were not renewed. They were not warned and in a number of cases there is no good reason for them to be terminated.

So they are keeping you 'out of the loop' now?

[lightbulb]

Herewith a short e mail from a foreign legal advisor I contacted about this:

(Copy)

"Thank you for your message. According to the Private School Act you are able to get a severance pay. Unfortunately the Ministry of Education has revoked this in their announcement."

(Paste)

This is interesting, when I originally contacted the Minister of Labour office, there was a very helpful and well spoken Thai man that told me to contact the Minister of Education about this. I didn't understand why = but now it makes sense.

Anyone have any thought on the new twist in the plot?

Edited March 22, 2010 by lightbulb

[mopenyang]

Herewith a short e mail from a foreign legal advisor I contacted about this:

(Copy)

"Thank you for your message. According to the Private School Act you are able to get a severance pay. Unfortunately the Ministry of Education has revoked this in their announcement."

(Paste)

This is interesting, when I originally contacted the Minister of Labour office, there was a very helpful and well spoken Thai man that told me to contact the Minister of Education about this. I didn't understand why = but now it makes sense.

Anyone have any thought on the new twist in the plot?

What "announcement" is being referenced?

Have you tried talking to a Thai labour lawyer regarding your situation?

[Scott]

Patcharanan: Yes, I am quite out of the loop, but that's really quite a different topic. There were some changes in the Administration of the school which may have caused this, but being a little paranoid and viewing things with a jaundiced eye, I am suspicious that the approach may be due to legal changes which gave them greater leeway in getting rid of people.

Like a lot of of changes in regulations, this one could have a major impact on teachers, especially on the continuity of teaching in schools.

[paully]

(Copy)

"Thank you for your message. According to the Private School Act you are able to get a severance pay. Unfortunately the Ministry of Education has revoked this in their announcement."

(Paste)

This is interesting, when I originally contacted the Minister of Labour office, there was a very helpful and well spoken Thai man that told me to contact the Minister of Education about this. I didn't understand why = but now it makes sense.

That could explain the confusion, I suppose, a Ministry of Education cock-up. I don't think you'll get the Minister of Education to publicly admit it though...

Legally, does the Ministry of Education possess the power to 'revoke' a clause of an Act by an announcement, or otherwise? Shouldn't have thought so.

[haltes]

Legally, does the Ministry of Education possess the power to 'revoke' a clause of an Act by an announcement, or otherwise? Shouldn't have thought so.

They might have a delegated power to do so.

My first thoughts would be that the taking away of rights specifically for teachers would be unconstitutional and even if the courts applied the law as some of them see it, a challenge as to the validity of the law itself would be the way to go as it does not treat people equally and equal treatment is a constitutional right.

I find Thunder's comments to be not very helpful and shold point out that normally in almost all situations a contract that is extended means that that person is not a temporary worker and IS entitled to severance pay. People who just make excuses for the status quo with a mai pen rai and TIT are not only letting others down but they will eventually end up letting themselves down too as they will eventually inevitably suffer as well as those who have suffered before!

[otherstuff1957]

I work at a private school. By this time last year we had all received notice of our contract renewal & expected pay raise. This year... nothing, and we just noticed an ad on Ajarn that is obviously a replacement for either me or one of two other teachers.

We realize that the school is under no obligation to hire us all back next year, but a reasonable notice would be appreciated. Whichever one of the three of us isn't being renewed should be looking for a job for next year right now, not on May 1!

[paully]

They might have a delegated power to do so.

Extremely unlikely to have a delegated power to revoke part of an Act, usually it's to bring part into effect at a later date or, possibly, suspend it temporarily.

My first thoughts would be that the taking away of rights specifically for teachers would be unconstitutional and even if the courts applied the law as some of them see it, a challenge as to the validity of the law itself would be the way to go as it does not treat people equally and equal treatment is a constitutional right.

Agree with this, long-standing and established rights in law cannot easily and simply be taken away when there is a constitution.

[thunder30101]

Some people just dont like to hear the truth of a matter. Once again I will state NO ONE FORCED US TO COME HERE ! The system in thailand is the system in thailand. You may not like it or agree with it but its what we have to deal with. If you dont feel you are being treated fairly move on, there are lots of jobs for qualified teachers here. Ya think you are going to change the system ??? Ya think the thais care what you think is fair ??? If you havent figured out the answer yet then maybe teaching in thailand isnt for you. Letting people down ??? The only people I have to worry about letting down is my family here, and taking care of MY business and getting along in the system I live with is my only priority !

[elkangorito]

There is not one person I know who would NOT want better working conditions.

If better working conditions happen to transpire due to the actions of a minority group, everybody benefits.

Maybe you would change your nick from 'thunder' to 'low rumble' if you had better working conditions?

If you can find a Thai law that says foreigners are not allowed any working rights or not allowed to seek redress of grievance for being treated unfairly, what you say is ok.

By doing nothing, the system will never change. Maybe you just don't like change?

Do you know what would happen if foreigners didn't complain about the totally appalling electrical system here? Perhaps they shouldn't complain because "NO ONE FORCED THEM TO COME HERE!"

Now, back to the topic at hand

[lightbulb]

I am looking to teach ESL in Korea and will probably be heading out there in a few weeks - its been a very difficult decision leaving almost nine years of a life in Thailand behind. Thanks everyone for your input and help regarding this string. I hope and trust that matters will change regarding the teaching situation here and especially a change in the private teaching act with regard to the Labour protection laws. Thanks again for your feedback, answers, help and input.

LB

[geronimo]

if the school has hired an illegal Burmese sweeper cleaning the classroom, that illegal worker would have more rights under the Thai Labour Law, than you have as a professional teacher at the same school.

explain that one to me?

It's rather strange to exclude private schools from labor laws.

This also means injustice for many Thais.

Do you have references of this amendment to the Law?

I am afraid I don't have this amendment with me right now- it was presented to us at our meeting as a document in Thai, which our very respectable and surprised lawyer translated. - I am wondering whether a translation is even available in English (anyone?)

I will ask for the document the lawyer handed us and I will get back to you on exactly where he quoted from.

As for the Illegal worker - ok admittedly, dunno exactly how the laws work for these workers and I would rule out "discrimination", BUT - if you are a foreigner employed illegally (no work permit / contract), you can still claim within your rights according to the LPA - but as a Private school teacher you cannot. Now, in such a case of illegal work, I would imagine that this would not exclude certain nationalities as that would be "discrimination" and also be "unconstitutional.." therefore one can argue that A burmese cleaner, under Thai Labour law - legal or illegal, has more rights than you do as a teacher working in a private school (this is only my opinion and I would be surprise if the law would show otherwise)

There is a case referenced here where a foreigner, teaching illegally, took his employers to court and still won. The guy even made a post (he got 8 months' severance) - Its referenced/posted somewhere here on Thaivisa Forums - maybe someone has that link...?

It was I. Yes foreign teachers do have rights when working in Thai Private schools.

[PeaceBlondie]

Geronomo - great to see you.

[Ijustwannateach]

Great to see you back, Geronimo.

I also agree with other posters who say teachers have rights and can and should claim them when appropriate. We do ourselves no favours by not standing up and doing our part to be counted as 'equal players' in the system, even if certain Thais might want to disagree. Even someone who fails will add to the right kind of pressure, because no administrator wants fights if they can be avoided by mutual agreement and understanding of the rules.

[mopenyang]

Lightbulb never answered the questions that I directed to him earlier in the thread:

"What "announcement" is being referenced?

Have you tried talking to a Thai labour lawyer regarding your situation?"

I think his responses could have given us a clearer picture of his situation.

My experience has been far different than his and I have found that dealing directly with a Thai labour lawyer can pay very positive dividends.

Of course, this means you must be willing to confront your employer head on and not everyone is willing to do this. As a result, too many people walk away from a situation complaining about the inequities of Thai law when they really did not utilize or test the system by seeing the matter through to its conclusion.

[Scott]

I think what you might be referring to is on the first page of this thread, around post 10. There is a link to the regulation.

[mopenyang]

I am referring to what he referred to in mentioning an "Announcement."

That's my point. I don't know what this so-called "Announcement" is or is not.

It may or may not be the link you are citing.

The thing is we really don't know since he never answered my question.

Also, if he never discussed his case with a Thail labour lawyer (please see my question directed to him), I have to wonder why not as it would seem to be a very basic step in the process to address his problem.