Class War

[luangtom]

I am truly confused by the latest Red Shirt call for a "class war". How can any group advance their cause of representing the poor and uneducated with one of the country's exiled top billionaires as it iconic leader? Something with this does not compute. How can a man of such means be thought of as the representative of the poor and uneducated? Desperate times call for desperate measures, but former PM Thaksin as the figurehead for the poor? Surely they do not think of him as anything akin to their class. What gives?

[Briggsy]

The OP makes a very good point.

One of the related points to this is how extremely difficult it is to enter politics in Thailand. There are numerous obstacles, both official and unofficial, basically requiring you to be wealthy before entering politics. You cannot just pop down to the Electoral Commission with a 100 Baht fee and register a party. Thus any champion of the poor here would need to be wealthy before entering politics before gaining power before instituting policies to reduce inequality in society.

This is just one of a myriad of ways the rich and powerful here preserve the status quo and ensure the wealth is not divested more equitably.

[jackr]

They love him because he put money in their pocket. The thing that doesn't compute with them is that he doesn't give a smeg about them really.

It's taken you 6 years to get to 99 posts.

At this rate it will take you..hang on..not enuff toes or fingers....erh 54 years to get to 1000 posts!

Perhaps he's the alter ego of Iam MaiC

[Heng]

A good start (before entering politics): don't sell your land and house that your family has been living on for hundreds of years. It typically throws a wrench in the whole 'education' plan when you're homeless.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

> How can a man of such means be thought of as the representative of the poor and uneducated?

Because he was the first one ever to take them seriously.

The better question is: how can past governments have stamped on the rural poor for so long and gotten away with it.

[LomSak27]

I

am truly confused by the latest Red Shirt call for a "class war". How can any group advance their cause of representing the poor and uneducated with one of the country's exiled top billionaires as it iconic leader? Something with this does not compute. How can a man of such means be thought of as the representative of the poor and uneducated? Desperate times call for desperate measures, but former PM Thaksin as the figurehead for the poor? Surely they do not think of him as anything akin to their class. What gives?

He might not give a smeg but he has done something for them. The sadest thing about this political imbroglio is that THEY will support him because no one else has ever done a dam_n thing for them. They are viewed as a cheap source of labour and that is all. PAD and the DEMs have been desperatly trying to say they care but they have decades of indifference to explain (or ignore and obfuscate). Unfortunatly the chickens have come home to roost. The Reds may fail but the lines are drawn, as well they should be.

[Pakboong]

The OP makes a very good point.

One of the related points to this is how extremely difficult it is to enter politics in Thailand. There are numerous obstacles, both official and unofficial, basically requiring you to be wealthy before entering politics. You cannot just pop down to the Electoral Commission with a 100 Baht fee and register a party. Thus any champion of the poor here would need to be wealthy before entering politics before gaining power before instituting policies to reduce inequality in society.

This is just one of a myriad of ways the rich and powerful here preserve the status quo and ensure the wealth is not divested more equitably.

You forgot to mention, of Chinese ancestry. There are no individuals of European ancestry on the ballots, nor are there any Japanese.

[Pakboong]

> How can a man of such means be thought of as the representative of the poor and uneducated?

Because he was the first one ever to take them seriously.

The better question is: how can past governments have stamped on the rural poor for so long and gotten away with it.

The rural poor are not Chinese. Thaksin my be the first ethnic chinese PM to at least pay lip service to the plight of the rural poor but he is not the first PM to do so. But you do have to go back a long way to find an ethnic Thai as PM.

[BazilFox]

OT

It's taken you 6 years to get to 99 posts.

At this rate it will take you..hang on..not enuff toes or fingers....erh 54 years to get to 1000 posts!

Will Ning still be at Suan Luang..will Thaksin still be twittering from God knows where...will there be any blood left.....anyone remember sin sod.....50 years of tourist stamps back to back and now a red stamp at Vientiane........will neverdie be alive...

Little off post, its not the number but the quality.

Personally I think it sad when I see the nuber of posts some people have accumulated, get a life.

Edited March 18, 2010 by BazilFox

[TheItaliann]

This spilling of the blood thing is so gross and unusual that I am wondering if TS is completely off his rocker.

[Meridian007]

> How can a man of such means be thought of as the representative of the poor and uneducated?

Because he was the first one ever to take them seriously.

The better question is: how can past governments have stamped on the rural poor for so long and gotten away with it.

The rural poor are not Chinese. Thaksin my be the first ethnic chinese PM to at least pay lip service to the plight of the rural poor but he is not the first PM to do so. But you do have to go back a long way to find an ethnic Thai as PM.

I agree with you. This is the elephant in the corner that no Thai in power wants to discuss. What didn't work for the Chinese in Malaysia, worked here. The Chinese in Thailand took their economic power, and were able to translate it into political power. Only ethnic Malays are allowed in politics in Malaysia.

The problem for Thailand is who is truly Thai? What is it to be truly Thai? Do you define it as the Tai subgroup that emigrated out of what is now China? The Cambodian, Vietnamese, and Lao influenced residents of Issan? The Malay influenced residents of the South?

Thailand is ethnically cosmopolitan, due in large part to its central location. I think that is why it was fitting that they began ASEAN.

This has been an issue for Thai anthropologists for a few decades now, with a few being thrown into disfavour for suggesting that there is no such ethnicity as specifically Thai.

[whatawonderfulday]

> How can a man of such means be thought of as the representative of the poor and uneducated?

Because he was the first one ever to take them seriously.

The better question is: how can past governments have stamped on the rural poor for so long and gotten away with it.

Simple answer:- ignorance and stupidity. Unless that is you control the peasants violantly like Stalin, Most of the Monarchy of Europe during the Middle Ages, Gengis Khan to name but a few.

[Pakboong]

> How can a man of such means be thought of as the representative of the poor and uneducated?

Because he was the first one ever to take them seriously.

The better question is: how can past governments have stamped on the rural poor for so long and gotten away with it.

The rural poor are not Chinese. Thaksin my be the first ethnic chinese PM to at least pay lip service to the plight of the rural poor but he is not the first PM to do so. But you do have to go back a long way to find an ethnic Thai as PM.

I agree with you. This is the elephant in the corner that no Thai in power wants to discuss. What didn't work for the Chinese in Malaysia, worked here. The Chinese in Thailand took their economic power, and were able to translate it into political power. Only ethnic Malays are allowed in politics in Malaysia.

The problem for Thailand is who is truly Thai? What is it to be truly Thai? Do you define it as the Tai subgroup that emigrated out of what is now China? The Cambodian, Vietnamese, and Lao influenced residents of Issan? The Malay influenced residents of the South?

Thailand is ethnically cosmopolitan, due in large part to its central location. I think that is why it was fitting that they began ASEAN.

This has been an issue for Thai anthropologists for a few decades now, with a few being thrown into disfavour for suggesting that there is no such ethnicity as specifically Thai.

You can however, look at a common reference source such as Wikipedia and clearly see reference to Chinese in the ancestry of the last dozen or so PMs. Whatever reason is given to cause that reference, when not present, would suggest an ethnic Thai. The Thais know, but for some reason do not talk about it in the open. It is clear for example that Sonthi and Abhisit are both pure ethnic Chinese just to name a couple. Sonthi, I beleive, is first generation Chinese. No Thai would argue. Thaksin is also ethnic Chinese, but there might be some argument however, a quick look at his family tree settles it. Lots of Chinese in the top layers of government here in Thailand. In many countries, loyalty to the crown would come into question in these situations.

The same argument would occur if in the US illegal Mexican immigrants were pardoned and given citizenship. It is likely to happen at some point. How many generations would have to pass before a Mexican could considers himself a ful-fledged American and can be loyal to president and country. Many Mexicans would never become loyal to their new government? No big deal, certainly to be expected.Loyalty to a country and it's rule takes a while to grow, it doesn't just happen like tuning on a lamp. Example. can a Chinese really love a Thai king? I don't know but if I were Thai, I would certainly wonder about it and not take it for granted.

[maccaroni man]

> How can a man of such means be thought of as the representative of the poor and uneducated?

Because he was the first one ever to take them seriously.

The better question is: how can past governments have stamped on the rural poor for so long and gotten away with it.

The rural poor are not Chinese. Thaksin my be the first ethnic chinese PM to at least pay lip service to the plight of the rural poor but he is not the first PM to do so. But you do have to go back a long way to find an ethnic Thai as PM.

I agree with you. This is the elephant in the corner that no Thai in power wants to discuss. What didn't work for the Chinese in Malaysia, worked here. The Chinese in Thailand took their economic power, and were able to translate it into political power. Only ethnic Malays are allowed in politics in Malaysia.

The problem for Thailand is who is truly Thai? What is it to be truly Thai? Do you define it as the Tai subgroup that emigrated out of what is now China? The Cambodian, Vietnamese, and Lao influenced residents of Issan? The Malay influenced residents of the South?

Thailand is ethnically cosmopolitan, due in large part to its central location. I think that is why it was fitting that they began ASEAN.

This has been an issue for Thai anthropologists for a few decades now, with a few being thrown into disfavour for suggesting that there is no such ethnicity as specifically Thai.

i think it it widely agreed that speaking central thai is the language of the land as well as northern and southern, all three can communicate with one an other however when the dilect moves to the east, well that is an other story. I have met many chinese thais who never think of themselves as anything other than thai as they were born in thailand and they love the big guy so what more is there?

[Meridian007]

You can however, look at a common reference source such as Wikipedia and clearly see reference to Chinese in the ancestry of the last dozen or so PMs. Whatever reason is given to cause that reference, when not present, would suggest an ethnic Thai. The Thais know, but for some reason do not talk about it in the open. It is clear for example that Sonthi and Abhisit are both pure ethnic Chinese just to name a couple. Sonthi, I beleive, is first generation Chinese. No Thai would argue. Thaksin is also ethnic Chinese, but there might be some argument however, a quick look at his family tree settles it. Lots of Chinese in the top layers of government here in Thailand. In many countries, loyalty to the crown would come into question in these situations.

The same argument would occur if in the US illegal Mexican immigrants were pardoned and given citizenship. It is likely to happen at some point. How many generations would have to pass before a Mexican could considers himself a ful-fledged American and can be loyal to president and country. Many Mexicans would never become loyal to their new government? No big deal, certainly to be expected.Loyalty to a country and it's rule takes a while to grow, it doesn't just happen like tuning on a lamp. Example. can a Chinese really love a Thai king? I don't know but if I were Thai, I would certainly wonder about it and not take it for granted.

Sure, the upper echelons of business and politics here are blatantly at least somewhat Chinese, because in Thailand, it benefits them to identify with that ethnicity. Identifying with an ethnicity from another South-East Asian nation is generally a handicap here, so you won't see them identified as Thai-Lao or, (as is generally the case in politics here when they are not Thai-Chinese), Thai-Indian.

Sadly those who are not Thai-Chinese, (or really, just as you said, 100% Chinese), are so used to being led by the Chinese, that to have anyone else in a position of power is suspect. Once this mentality, (self confidence issue? I definitely wouldn't say laziness or stupidity as some others have in this thread and others, I know some very active and intelligent non-Chinese Thais), has been taken care of, I think we could see the "Thai" leader that you, (and I), hope for.

-----Edit for MM

Yes, language is another trait that could be used to define ethnicity, but I think that's the problem, they can't really define what to include. Do you only base it on DNA? Facial features? Skin colour? Language? Religion?

Edited March 18, 2010 by Meridian007

[Samuian]

It could easely be the next thing the reds are going to push for in the name of,

well who could be the inventor of this "class war"?

An the question arises why "war" why not struggle?

What is the difference between the 2 words?

"War" implements what?

If so, this "class war" is just another design to willfully to deceit those who really struggle,

to utilize them for one mans ambitious dream of sole power....!

[londonthai]

you can draw historic analogies to the french revolution, when petty bourgeoisie, workers and peasants formed a coalition against the dominating class of aristocracy and feudals and to the french commune, when workers and peasants were in conflict with capitalists.

thaksin used workers to get to power, now workers are using thaksin to their own particular class interests.

sooner rather than later an alliance of thaksin with workers will end, they will go their own ways and with a time become enemies.

thaksin is more than a petty bourgeoisie, he is the "new money" (made on the new industries and technologies - as oppose to the old money, made in the traditional industries, agriculture) and tried to push towards the global capitalism and progress, rather than to keep thailand in the state of semi-autarchy, self-sufficiency.

with an economic progress there is also a social progress, as the new industries need more qualified, educated and healthy workers, who can run the economy efficiently and smoothly, who can think independently, critically and make decisions by themselves. With social progress come democratic changes, as workers become self-aware and know their value not only as cheap robots, but a political power.

that's why thaksin had to go.

however, historic processes run independently from the politics in the parliament or behind the close doors, and they will resurface in the future, bigger and stronger than before.

bearing in mind that thailand is in a bring of a major power shift, when the monarchy will have to re-define it's position in politics and society, there is a place for the new players to be seen.

[t.s]

OT

It's taken you 6 years to get to 99 posts.

At this rate it will take you..hang on..not enuff toes or fingers....erh 54 years to get to 1000 posts!

Will Ning still be at Suan Luang..will Thaksin still be twittering from God knows where...will there be any blood left.....anyone remember sin sod.....50 years of tourist stamps back to back and now a red stamp at Vientiane........will neverdie be alive...

one can see that your majestic total wasn't achieved by posting on topic.

[Boksida]

There are no individuals of European ancestry on the ballots, nor are there any Japanese.

Dr Boonsom Martin served as a Minister of Education and Minister of Health but was not elected.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

> How can a man of such means be thought of as the representative of the poor and uneducated?

Because he was the first one ever to take them seriously.

The better question is: how can past governments have stamped on the rural poor for so long and gotten away with it.

The rural poor are not Chinese. Thaksin my be the first ethnic chinese PM to at least pay lip service to the plight of the rural poor but he is not the first PM to do so. But you do have to go back a long way to find an ethnic Thai as PM.

Chinese or not is apparently not a key factor. And another key thing is that while so many before him paid lip service to the poor, Thaksin is the first one to come through on lip service with a whole range of development programmes and other 'populist' measures that the poor acknowledge as being beneficial to them.

[alohatiger]

you can draw historic analogies to the french revolution, when petty bourgeoisie, workers and peasants formed a coalition against the dominating class of aristocracy and feudals and to the french commune, when workers and peasants were in conflict with capitalists.

thaksin used workers to get to power, now workers are using thaksin to their own particular class interests.

sooner rather than later an alliance of thaksin with workers will end, they will go their own ways and with a time become enemies.

thaksin is more than a petty bourgeoisie, he is the "new money" (made on the new industries and technologies - as oppose to the old money, made in the traditional industries, agriculture) and tried to push towards the global capitalism and progress, rather than to keep thailand in the state of semi-autarchy, self-sufficiency.

with an economic progress there is also a social progress, as the new industries need more qualified, educated and healthy workers, who can run the economy efficiently and smoothly, who can think independently, critically and make decisions by themselves. With social progress come democratic changes, as workers become self-aware and know their value not only as cheap robots, but a political power.

that's why thaksin had to go.

It's fairly easy to see what's happening when one peers into the regions historical relationship with each other, including Isaan, ethnic Chinese, and Siamese.

londonthai's analysis is correct: Thaksin chose to ally himself with the former enemies of Siam, the former people of Laos of Isaan, and that couldn't be tolerated by the Siamese.

People in Isaan still dream (with a bit of painful angst) about true freedom, independence, but they know Laos is even worse. So they'll grab any legitimate way to power they can, through what Time magazine calls, "Ugly Democracy".

Fact is, Siam is still constitutionally a monarchy, of, for, and by the Siamese.

While the monarchy in the 20th century has retreated further and further (around the world, a global phenomenon), the Siamese have still maintained their hold on the most crucial power-holding institutions.

So, if a Chinese wants to be a PM, he may come from the progressives, "New Money", as londonthai pointed out, and not have all the objectives of the true ruling class in Thailand, the Siamese.

When Thaksin wanted to engage the Burmese ("Boo! Boo!," yelled the Siamese, who still smart at the sacking of Ayutthuya and and priceless destruction of libraries and artefacts by the hands of the Burmese) and even spread his mobile phone / satellite service to Laos .. that was crossing the borders! These are ancient enemies and the situation has polarized the SE Asians. Only a Chinese could see the profit (not the cultural sensitivities, in this case) of a engagement with old, dire enemies.

So something in the self-preservation of the Siamese kicked in, the progress of former enemies perhaps in the past lead to conflicts, and the Siamese (AWARE, but not descended from Democracy) decided there can only be one.

Thaksin was forcibly removed.

His tax-evasion scheme was questionable, but completely legal. NO ONE EVADES DEATH OR TAXES. So he can be guilty of that.

The monarchy is supposed to oversee the democratic process and inject itself when democracy fails (on occasion, it can).

Make no mistake: the Siamese are one and all for the Siamese. And the monarchy is Siamese, and want to keep it that way.

I suppose it's long-term strategy in the eyes of the Siamese: repress the people still harboring resentments. Small embers can flare into fires.

And Isaan is a dry dry ember.

What if, over the course of a meer two decades, a new class of Laotian or Cambodian or Buddha-forbid Burmese came about? An intellectual class capable of uniting and sophisticatedly drawing in support from the West? What if a charismatic leader were bred from these newly-improved areas and decided to challenge set borders? Reclaim old birthrights. Stir up resentment and create .. Trouble?

THAT'S one of the REAL reasons why the Siamese monarchy squashed Thaksin. Call it ethnic prejudice, or call it maintaining the peace .. It consolidates the power of the monarchy, and make no mistake, this IS the Kingdom of Siam ..

[Odysseus221]

Certainly these economic times are times in which many who have little, become agitated. But beware! The cure is worse than the disease! Freedom must be carefully qualifed: it is the freedom to work, to operate businesses and so forth, that makes a free society; it is a middle class that needs a freedom of thought, to create innovation and satisfy needs of all. The government seems already to understand the needs of the poorer Thais; Thanksin's urging to his people when he was in power was, work harder! These were his exact words. If he were in power today, what would be his directives to the dissatisfied? Many now cannot find work. This is the market economy.

It has already been proven that in terms of providing goods and services, a market economy is superior to any--although in times of difficulty the state must intervene, to provide greater stability to the people. This is undoubtedly one of those times. It would be a mistake to identify with a"class struggle" since this rhetoric is not only outside of Buddhist thought, but ABSOLUTELY hostile to it. The solutions of Thailand must be from Thais, not outside agitators and governments and philosophies that ferment social unrest, in the hopes of seizing opportunities--people to whom Thais would object to if they had the chance. Social upheavals often wind up giving elements of society that should not have power the opportunity to seize it. This opportunity is then used to oppress and destroy civilized behavior in the name of radical reform. Who is to say that those demanding social reform will remain at the head of the herd? Remember Gorbachev?

Witness the Russian Revolution which started as a result of a disastrous war and resulted in a small, organized and ruthless revolutionary group, who then unleashed such hardship and repression on their peoples that the whole country was set back for decades; it saw the destruction of the intelligencia, of freedom of thought and worse, freedom to do business--and became a state of extermination in which millions of people perished in state sponsored paranoia. Coincidentally, Cambodia wound up the same way during its revolutionary decade. While this is not the stated policy of communism, the totalitarian effect usually results in disaster for the people. Ruthless people are usually undereducated with a lack of moral training. How can it be otherwise? They have no morality to constrain themselves.

The Thai people are better off working their problems through then destroying their society.

Why not give the government the opportunity to work with the people to create a new harmonious climate as Buddha inteaded instead of Karl Marx?

Edited March 18, 2010 by Odysseus221

[Odysseus221]

Certainly these economic times are times in which many who have little, become agitated. But beware! The cure is worse than the disease! Freedom must be carefully qualifed: it is the freedom to work, to operate businesses and so forth, that makes a free society; it is a middle class that needs a freedom of thought, to create innovation and satisfy needs of all. The government seems already to understand the needs of the poorer Thais; Thanksin's urging to his people when he was in power was, work harder! These were his exact words. If he were in power today, what would be his directives to the dissatisfied? Many now cannot find work. This is the market economy.

It has already been proven that in terms of providing goods and services, a market economy is superior to any--although in times of difficulty the state must intervene, to provide greater stability to the people. This is undoubtedly one of those times. It would be a mistake to identify with a"class struggle" since this rhetoric is not only outside of Buddhist thought, but ABSOLUTELY hostile to it. The solutions of Thailand must be from Thais, not outside agitators and governments and philosophies that ferment social unrest, in the hopes of seizing opportunities--people to whom Thais would object to if they had the chance. Social upheavals often wind up giving elements of society that should not have power the opportunity to seize it. This opportunity is then used to oppress and destroy civilized behavior in the name of radical reform. Who is to say that those demanding social reform will remain at the head of the herd? Remember Gorbachev?

Witness the Russian Revolution which started as a result of a disastrous war and resulted in a small, organized and ruthless revolutionary group, who then unleashed such hardship and repression on their peoples that the whole country was set back for decades; it saw the destruction of the intelligencia, of freedom of thought and worse, freedom to do business--and became a state of extermination in which millions of people perished in state sponsored paranoia. Coincidentally, Cambodia wound up the same way during its revolutionary decade. While this is not the stated policy of communism, the totalitarian effect usually results in disaster for the people. Ruthless people are usually undereducated with a lack of moral training. How can it be otherwise? They have no morality to contrain themselves.

The Thai people are better off working their problems through then destroying their society.

Why not give the government the opportunity to work with the people to create a new harmonious climate as Buddha inteaded instead of Karl Marx?

[hunglikea]

Odysseus221

Just because you repeated your statement to 'up the count' doesn't mean people are any more interested.

Big smiley somewhere but can't find it....

Edited March 18, 2010 by hunglikea

[bendejo]

The face on the giant TV screen has reached the limits of desperation, and will say anything that could possibly have any impact at all. Funny about a 'class uprising' being incited by a rich SOB traversing the planet in a private jet. Anyway, no need to dissect and analyze what is being said, it's all just blather, and you'd be putting more thought into the words than the person who spoke them. For further entertainment along these lines give a listen to Tom Waits's 'Step Right Up.'

This is like all those conservative guys in the US denouncing elites while they themselves make millions per year for spouting their drivel. Taksin has definitely taken a few notes from these guys. Redshirts equate to the US Teabaggers.

Anyway, what class? These Issani bumpkins don't seem to have much class at all. Oops, does saying that make me an elite?

[JetsetBkk]

The face on the giant TV screen has reached the limits of desperation, and will say anything that could possibly have any impact at all. Funny about a 'class uprising' being incited by a rich SOB traversing the planet in a private jet. Anyway, no need to dissect and analyze what is being said, it's all just blather, and you'd be putting more thought into the words than the person who spoke them. For further entertainment along these lines give a listen to Tom Waits's 'Step Right Up.'

This is like all those conservative guys in the US denouncing elites while they themselves make millions per year for spouting their drivel. Taksin has definitely taken a few notes from these guys. Redshirts equate to the US Teabaggers.

Anyway, what class? These Issani bumpkins don't seem to have much class at all. Oops, does saying that make me an elite?

"Elite"? - no. "Bigot"? - yes.

[way2muchcoffee]

The face on the giant TV screen has reached the limits of desperation, and will say anything that could possibly have any impact at all. Funny about a 'class uprising' being incited by a rich SOB traversing the planet in a private jet. Anyway, no need to dissect and analyze what is being said, it's all just blather, and you'd be putting more thought into the words than the person who spoke them. For further entertainment along these lines give a listen to Tom Waits's 'Step Right Up.'

This is like all those conservative guys in the US denouncing elites while they themselves make millions per year for spouting their drivel. Taksin has definitely taken a few notes from these guys. Redshirts equate to the US Teabaggers.

Anyway, what class? These Issani bumpkins don't seem to have much class at all. Oops, does saying that make me an elite?

"Elite"? - no. "Bigot"? - yes.

Why? A bumpkin is an unsophisticated person. How many of the redshirts presently demonstrating would know which fork to use at a fine dining restaurant? It isn't a criticism, it's a fact. hel_l, my wife is a bumpkin. She's from rural Thailand and prefers that when we go out we stay away from the best restaurants because it makes her feel awkward. No problem. I like burgers and pad khrapow as much as the next guy.

[Pakboong]

You can however, look at a common reference source such as Wikipedia and clearly see reference to Chinese in the ancestry of the last dozen or so PMs. Whatever reason is given to cause that reference, when not present, would suggest an ethnic Thai. The Thais know, but for some reason do not talk about it in the open. It is clear for example that Sonthi and Abhisit are both pure ethnic Chinese just to name a couple. Sonthi, I beleive, is first generation Chinese. No Thai would argue. Thaksin is also ethnic Chinese, but there might be some argument however, a quick look at his family tree settles it. Lots of Chinese in the top layers of government here in Thailand. In many countries, loyalty to the crown would come into question in these situations.

The same argument would occur if in the US illegal Mexican immigrants were pardoned and given citizenship. It is likely to happen at some point. How many generations would have to pass before a Mexican could considers himself a ful-fledged American and can be loyal to president and country. Many Mexicans would never become loyal to their new government? No big deal, certainly to be expected.Loyalty to a country and it's rule takes a while to grow, it doesn't just happen like tuning on a lamp. Example. can a Chinese really love a Thai king? I don't know but if I were Thai, I would certainly wonder about it and not take it for granted.

Sure, the upper echelons of business and politics here are blatantly at least somewhat Chinese, because in Thailand, it benefits them to identify with that ethnicity. Identifying with an ethnicity from another South-East Asian nation is generally a handicap here, so you won't see them identified as Thai-Lao or, (as is generally the case in politics here when they are not Thai-Chinese), Thai-Indian.

Sadly those who are not Thai-Chinese, (or really, just as you said, 100% Chinese), are so used to being led by the Chinese, that to have anyone else in a position of power is suspect. Once this mentality, (self confidence issue? I definitely wouldn't say laziness or stupidity as some others have in this thread and others, I know some very active and intelligent non-Chinese Thais), has been taken care of, I think we could see the "Thai" leader that you, (and I), hope for.

-----Edit for MM

Yes, language is another trait that could be used to define ethnicity, but I think that's the problem, they can't really define what to include. Do you only base it on DNA? Facial features? Skin colour? Language? Religion?

Having attended only Chinese schools and speaking Chinese in private situations are not anthropological factors.

[Pakboong]

> How can a man of such means be thought of as the representative of the poor and uneducated?

Because he was the first one ever to take them seriously.

The better question is: how can past governments have stamped on the rural poor for so long and gotten away with it.

The rural poor are not Chinese. Thaksin my be the first ethnic chinese PM to at least pay lip service to the plight of the rural poor but he is not the first PM to do so. But you do have to go back a long way to find an ethnic Thai as PM.

Chinese or not is apparently not a key factor. And another key thing is that while so many before him paid lip service to the poor, Thaksin is the first one to come through on lip service with a whole range of development programmes and other 'populist' measures that the poor acknowledge as being beneficial to them.

Maybe so but wouldn't an ethnic Thai be more likely to see this situation for what it really is? No matter how good he is, Thaksin is not Ethnic Thai. It gets funnier when somebody like Sonthi who is first generation Thai-Chinese questions Thaksin's loyalty to th

[Cayenne]

What's so confusing about this so-called "class war" is that there is a lot of grey area. I mean, there were pictures of reds entering McDonalds on the first day! Surely these are not the rural poor who can afford nothing but smelly fish and sticky rice as generalized by the press (heck, I'd even bet some of those reds who went up on stage are even richer than most people on this board). At the same time, majority of people who hate Thaksin are clearly not part of "elite" (well maybe part of the business elite as they are mostly white collar workers) since they can claim no ancestry to any great family name.