Beware Of Being Shortchanged

[Garry]

I still can't get over the fact the amount of young people I come across in the small shops, who have to use a calculator to sum up really REALLY simple math. I don't think of them as being dumb or stupid, but hey give it a go, give the grey matter some exercise

Try doing it all day, every day and you might just change your mind. On top of that, if you do happen to make a mistake doing it without a calculator, someone might accuse you of cheating them and put it all over the internet.

I'm not talking about bulk items, but just some the simple math putting a couple of items together, but anyhoo I still love Thailand

[Ulysses G.]

I know, but when you add things up for hours every day you can easily get bored/tired and make mistakes on even simple things.

[chang35baht]

Your wit underwhelms me. If you want to crank up your wit and find fault with anything a particular person says, it's not hard to do. Try it with me. Tell me anything about yourself, and if I so chose, I could tear it down with pseudo wit. Let me guess, you're one of those people who think in black and white / all right and all wrong. There are some people in your life who can do no wrong,( only me )......and there are other people who you preclude can do nothing right. Am I wrong?

Yes. Guess again.

Unfortunately Brahms you fail to

Edited March 21, 2010 by chang35baht

[brahmburgers]

Your wit underwhelms me. If you want to crank up your wit and find fault with anything a particular person says, it's not hard to do. Try it with me. Tell me anything about yourself, and if I so chose, I could tear it down with pseudo wit. Let me guess, you're one of those people who think in black and white / all right and all wrong. There are some people in your life who can do no wrong,( only me )......and there are other people who you preclude can do nothing right. Am I wrong?

Yes. Guess again.

Unfortunately Brahms you fail to

You still underwhelm me. But you're good at mudslinging - without taking a real and/or non-sarcastic position on anything.

Edited March 22, 2010 by brahmburgers

[Limbo]

Brahmburgers should have understood that a subject like this should not be brought

forward in a forum like this and on top of that certainly not in the way he did.

It simply stigmatizes Chiang Rai sales clerks and cashiers as people you can't trust, as

cheats, thus thieves and criminals. This is completely unjust!

It's insulting towards these hardworking people, who should deserve our greatest respect

for their patience, their politeness, their correctness and their pleasant helpfulness!

Thanks to the postings of Toptuan, Neverdie, Ulysses, Skybluetru (and those I forgot to

mention) a Thai reader of this topic hopefully understands that Brahmburger in no way

represents the way foreigners living in Chiang Rai think about Thai people in general and

Chiang Rai sales clerks and cashiers in particular.

I check sometimes, but roughly, the bill or the change I get back. Mostly only the hundred Baht

notes and higher. I do this because everybody can make a mistake (as Scuadugenga pointed out,

a cashier can also give back too much change) and certainly not because I expect to be cheated.

How many times a foreigner living in Chiang Rai hasn't been cheating another foreigner living in

Chiang Rai? How many times people borrow money (not to talk about little things like dvd's, books

or what-so-ever) without even the intention to pay back? Talk about that Brahmburger, but not

about Thai Chiang Rai people who cannot defend themselves here!

I agree hundred percent with Chang35Baht: Stop with this nonsense!

Limbo

[dmax]

ive never been short changed albeit by a bar cashier ( happens everytime) the very fact that a thai didnt argue the point over a few hundred baht suggests to me they new what they were doing !!

Edited March 22, 2010 by dmax

[chang35baht]

"I've decided to report any shortchanging from now on - right when it happens, regardless of how quick the correct change is given, and regardless of how charming and/or apologetic the thief is."

Well, we can all feel safer in our beds now. After all the years that you`ve live in Chiang Rai/Thailand, you`re finally starting your one man campaign to stop shortchanging. Managers, shopkeepers,cashiers and frail,fat,pretty young girls/boys are about to feel the wrath you are about to rain down on them.

I envisage a poster campaign throughout the CR retail society, "DO NOT SHORTCHANGE THIS MAN"

During all these years, you really haven`t learnt anything about the country you continue to live in(but continually put down).

Ok Brahms, you win.

Till the next time.

[sceadugenga]

Agreed, most Chiang Rai shop workers are honest and hard working. A market lady once chased me down the street when I walked off without my 60B change.

I think most of the stories were meant to be anecdotal rather than warnings though.

I'm also being to suspect that if Brahmburgers claimed the sun rose in the east that Chang35Baht would declare himself to be a devout proponent of western sunrises.

[brahmburgers]

Right. I'm compelled to get defensive. If you read my initial post you'll see I mentioned 2 instances in two months. I've bought more than two things in the past two months. Like a lot of us, I purchase hundreds of items (and services) at dozens of shops per week. Of course most check-out clerks do a good job, and there've also been times where I was given too much change, and I mention it at the time, and all's smiles.

It's funny, it's only on C.Rai forum that there are a few posters who will do double back flips in order to try and find fault with some of my posts. I don't get that anywhere else - with people nor blogs. Am curious to know what triggered that - tho perhaps it's stupid to ask.

I still maintain that shortchanging is thievery, no less that purse snatching, though more subtle. I have no idea whether it happens more often in C.Rai than elsewhere, any more than I know whether gym socks are smellier in Catalonia than in Patagonia. Here's a suggestion to those who are intent on finding fault: look at what I write, rather than filling in the spaces with negativity, and then spinning on that muck. If you still choose to twist yourself in to a pretzel to find something to dis, then I can't help you. Good luck. Hope you have things to do which you enjoy. I do.

[Limbo]

I envisage a poster campaign throughout the CR retail society, "DO NOT SHORTCHANGE THIS MAN"

During all these years, you really haven`t learnt anything about the country you continue to live in(but continually put down).

I agree. Okay Brahmburger, show a picture of yourself on the Thai Chiang Rai websites,

because this is your personal crusade.

You must understand that it would be a disaster for a foreigner to enter a shop within an hour

after you have been there and have done some 'educating'.

Maybe, depending on your enthousiasm, even within a week or longer.

I have noticed that you don't like Thai people. That's your right.

But why do you stay here complaining all the time?

I remember your quest for a recording studio in Chiang Rai. Thai people didn't understand you,

they did everything wrong, they didn't know how to do things etc etc.

Than you started your music thread about music to be recorded in these studio's.

Then we heard nothing anymore.

Many years ago you were crusading for the girls in the brothels of Mae Sai. You were doing

research to find out why they had become prostitutes. You went to interview the girls to find

the clue to understanding.

A Dutch developmental aid organization got at that time a request for support of somebody

who wanted to do the same research. This person made a project proposal in which he wrote

that he wanted to visit fifty young prostitutes for an interview and that the best way to do

this was to pretend that he was a customer. He asked for 100 US Dollar per interview (...).

He didn't get the money, so we never heard anything anymore about him, but how about your research?

Don't tell me that all these poor miserable children prostitues now suddenly became cashiers that are

cheating you.

Come on Ken, get things straight!

Limbo

[whiterussian]

At Uni, I was a barman for a while at a busy club...

One day a burly London Geezer bought a drink, he chatted for a bit, handed over a fiver, I gave him his change... then he put on the most serious London gangster face you can imagine, and insisted he had given me a tenner. To be honest, I'd never been challenged before, as I'm generally larger than most customers, and they didnt dare...

I gave him change for a 10, with apologies.

Then he revealed himself to be part of a management sent training team!

He very nicely explained... every time you take a bill.. say out loud the amount.

a lesson well taught.

This episode, we're turning to the dark side and learning actual CRIME. Remember, the following is for INFORMATIONAL AND ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY!

Edited March 22, 2010 by whiterussian

[brahmburgers]

I envisage a poster campaign throughout the CR retail society, "DO NOT SHORTCHANGE THIS MAN"

During all these years, you really haven`t learnt anything about the country you continue to live in(but continually put down).

I agree. Okay Brahmburger, show a picture of yourself on the Thai Chiang Rai websites,

because this is your personal crusade. You must understand that it would be a disaster for a foreigner to enter a shop within an hour after you have been there and have done some 'educating'.

Maybe, depending on your enthousiasm, even within a week or longer.

If I choose to get someone in trouble for cheating customers, that's my choice. If you don't mind being shortchanged, that's your choice. If you see someone stealing your cell phone, and because they're cute and/or apologetic, you smile back and say 'that's ok.' ....that's your choice. If your wife has her purse snatched by a motorcycle thief, and you wave and smile at the guy as he's driving away, that's your choice.

I won't tolerate being ripped off by counter clerks. I may only notice it once in awhile, but when I do, I'm going to say something about it to management. Tell me, what's the difference between getting shortchanged 1,000 baht at a store counter check-out, or having 1,000 baht stolen out of your wallet by a petty thief?

Many years ago you were crusading for the girls in the brothels of Mae Sai. You were doing

research to find out why they had become prostitutes. You went to interview the girls to find

the clue to understanding.

I spoke with one gal several times. She had told me of being taken to the US to speak to church groups - in order to raise money for the American couple. Some people on T.Visa said it was impossible for a poor young Burmese prostitute to travel to the US. I believed her and had photocopies of her passport to prove it, but the thread was closed hours before I could post them. While on the church tour of the US, she was visited at night (several times) by the 'pastor' who sponsored her. She complained each time to his wife, so finally she was flown back to Asia without a dime. She lamented to me that, though the whole church tour was to raise money for 'to fight human trafficking/child prostitution, and a bunch would get sent to her family in Burma, not a satang was sent.

A Dutch developmental aid organization got at that time a request for support of somebody........

whatever some Dutch organization does is their biz. Does it have something to do with me?!?

Don't tell me that all these poor miserable children prostitues now suddenly became cashiers that are

cheating you. Come on Ken, get things straight!

Limbo

I honestly cannot make heads or tails of what you're inferring in the above sentence. Are you drinking too much fermented grains? Is it an attempt at wit/humor? You can do better than that, can't you?

[dindong]

I think the O.P has been too long in Thailand and is forever bitching about things here.

He does seem to post a lot on these forums but maybe it's time for him to either move out or keep quiet.

I don't like these people that sit around all day trying to change Thailand to be like their own country, if things are so bad here, then move.

[cmjantje]

S

I still can't get over the fact the amount of young people I come across in the small shops, who have to use a calculator to sum up really REALLY simple math. I don't think of them as being dumb or stupid, but hey give it a go, give the grey matter some exercise

Try doing it all day, every day and you might just change your mind. On top of that, if you do happen to make a mistake doing it without a calculator, someone might accuse you of cheating them and put it all over the internet.

Edited March 23, 2010 by cmjantje

[kandahar]

I find it laughable (and yet sad) that anyone thinks that this topic shouldn’t be discussed on this forum. I find it offensive that anyone thinks they can bully someone else that chooses to post about their legitimate experience with this topic on this forum.

This forum (definition in this case: an open meeting for discussion) has rules and the rules haven’t been violated with the topic of choice. Some would offer up their own rules and expect others to obey. I’m not sure what their credentials are for trying to assume this role but I am certain that they are overstepping their bounds. The forum doesn’t belong to them. It isn’t their personal page. But it appears that some have decided that they own it and that they will choose who is right or wrong in making posts. They are, of course, wrong in doing so. We have moderators for that. If someone unjustly attacks this fair city or its inhabitants, whether Thai or Falang, then perhaps a quick rebuke is a good thing. If someone points out some disparaging components of the culture (payoffs, BIB, Gov., driving rules or the lack of, and many other things that we weren’t subjected to in our other lives), then I see that pretty much as a discussion point that might help me or others to adapt or understand.

I have noticed on the CR forum that certain people can post as often as they like about any of their pet issues, hobbies, fetishes or pastimes and are left to do so in peace and yet others, who offer up meaningful topics of DISCUSSION (as opposed to the DICTATION of the aforementioned) are likely subjected to ridicule and condemnation.

Some of these old threads get added to and updated constantly, by the same wagging tongues, with exceptional amounts of blah, blah, blah. I happen to notice that for the most part, the threads that have that curious large amount of input also happen to have an exclusive, small number of posters. This leads me to believe that those threads are of very little interest to the majority of forum users. The interests seems pretty much confined to that select, very, very few. In those postings, I personally find a form of vanity in the posts that I find offensive. The dictation, or monologue, meant to be taken with seriousness, is lost on me: He who lives in the glory of the deeds of others loses his opportunity to make his own good mark on the world. While the glory of his champions might live for generations, he won’t be remembered or missed and his time on earth is, most sadly, lost.

I couldn’t give a rat‘s butt about those topics or any of the information found therein. However, I also choose to ignore the threads. They don’t concern me. I find that some of the topics deal with the accomplishments of others in matters that don’t matter. While I’m bewildered that anyone would waste their time (and money) caring about such things when they could much more easily spend their time actually contributing to a better world, I have to stop and realize that different things make us tick. Their windings aren’t wound like mine (Hardly any are, I know). But I don’t spend my time attacking those posters. Let them post their nonsense. Let them take the deeds of others and find a personal relevance in it. To each his own. I don’t get it. I never will. I’ll just focus on what I do get and not waste my time or theirs by arguing my point. I won’t even bother with replies that address the vanity that is so apparent. That isn’t what the forum is for. And for those that find those musings to be right up their alley, then THEY have found the forum to be what they wanted. And the rest of us leaving you alone in your small world without ridicule or criticism is our silent pardon and forgiveness for your character flaw. You’re welcome.

On to another point. The forum is referred to as the “Expat forum”. Actually, in Thailand, it is referred to as THE Expat forum. It is the go-to source for info on living and dying here. True, a lot of postings are about the negative things we experience. At the same time, it is good to post about the negatives and help others avoid those traps or circumstances. What might be a common sense thing to avoid for a person from one country and background might not even be on the radar of a person from another set of experiences. What one person learned and how it was handled, is often very helpful to others. The way in which one person handles a negative experience might be a quick ticket to a butt-kicking. So, reporting, discussing, lending critiques and offering support when dealing with the negatives adds to the quality of life.

Concerning Thias reading this “Expat” forum and finding the Expat thinking to be offensive, I’ll say this: My wife has a keen interest in this forum. She is an educated Thai. Her family (also educated) has a keen interest in this forum. They know how we see things here. They don’t find it offensive. They know what happens here. They know that it is a part of the culture and they know it isn’t as bad here as it is in other parts of the country. They ARE embarrassed by the negatives that we, the Expats, experience. They experience it themselves and that is just a part of life to them but they are REALLY embarrassed when outsiders are subjected to improper experiences here.

We discussed this particular thread and here is the result- Do they think we should write about these things? Yes. They want others to know what to avoid in order to lessen the damage to the name of the country and especially, CR.

Do they think we should call out a salesclerk or shop owner who is separating us from more baht than they should be? Yes, and they see us as stupid and easy if we don’t figure up the bill ourselves AND diligently count our change AND notify the boss if there is a discrepancy. They say that is the only way to fix the problem and we‘re making it worse when we don‘t care or we let it slide for other reasons

Do they see us as stupid? Yes, but only because we let others take advantage of us. They say it is common knowledge that the Farang is stupid on that point and it is a common discussion point among locals. They point out that when one of us lets someone get over on us, it only encourages the likelihood of it happening to more of us. They tell me that it happens to EVERYONE in this culture and NOBODY should let it pass if it can be addressed. The Thais lose money to this type of nonsense from a few bad eggs if they aren’t careful and we Farang lose more because we aren’t careful or are too shy to mention it when it happens. And in the eyes of a small percentage of the population, we have “Steal from Me” stamped on our foreheads and we ought to be very, very aware of that.

The last question I asked my family concerning this thread, (though they have mentioned this issue before, after reading other threads in the CR forum) is what general sense they got from this thread. The answer, unfortunately, is that they just do not understand why the Farang are so hateful to each other or how we can say the things to each other that we do AND do it publicly like this. AFTER reading what the haters said, they asked me “Don’t these people know that some Thais read this? Why do they say those words to him?“ They didn’t think the OP was out of line at all and in fact, said that they hope newcomers read this thread early in their experience with CR. They really are proud of the fact that CR isn’t as bad as some of the other areas and they want CR to get better, for the good of all, but especially to attract more foreign income. The topic of the thread wasn’t any big thing to them; just another aspect of life in Thailand. How we treat each other IS a wonder to them. As many posts as there were in this thread, the hater’s posts are what this family remembers and will be talking about.

To the Thais reading this, I say, “Yeah, we’ve got some real jewels amongst us. But in your reading, you have also seen lots of good here. And yes, some of us know to count our change and to figure the bill, just as you do. We’ll continue to live here, keep our eyes and hearts open and just as you do, we will learn which of the locals to avoid and which to embrace. You can continue to read our forum and you will know the same about our group".

To brahmburgers and villagefarang, I say, “You guys are a few of the contributors that keep this thing interesting and actually add some good discussion points. I see that after particularly nasty responses from the usual suspects in the past, you guys have just bailed for long periods of time. This thing is as much yours as it is theirs. Lots of people just sit silently in awe when it hits the fan here. I’m usually one of them. I usually just don’t know how to respond to such behavior on this forum. In fact, sometimes I just log off and forget about it for a while. But this time I won’t. Get in here and get back to posting the good things that you post that actually give us cause to discuss something. Help to make this more than the one-sided crap that a small minority of others would have it be. Believe me, I’m not alone in my thinking.”

Please forgive any typos. I'm in a hurry.

Edited March 23, 2010 by kandahar

[chang35baht]

I find it laughable (and yet sad) that anyone thinks that this topic shouldn’t be discussed on this forum. I find it offensive that anyone thinks they can bully someone else that chooses to post about their legitimate experience with this topic on this forum.

This forum (definition in this case: an open meeting for discussion) has rules and the rules haven’t been violated with the topic of choice. Some would offer up their own rules and expect others to obey. I’m not sure what their credentials are for trying to assume this role but I am certain that they are overstepping their bounds. The forum doesn’t belong to them. It isn’t their personal page. But it appears that some have decided that they own it and that they will choose who is right or wrong in making posts. They are, of course, wrong in doing so. We have moderators for that. If someone unjustly attacks this fair city or its inhabitants, whether Thai or Falang, then perhaps a quick rebuke is a good thing. If someone points out some disparaging components of the culture (payoffs, BIB, Gov., driving rules or the lack of, and many other things that we weren’t subjected to in our other lives), then I see that pretty much as a discussion point that might help me or others to adapt or understand.

I have noticed on the CR forum that certain people can post as often as they like about any of their pet issues, hobbies, fetishes or pastimes and are left to do so in peace and yet others, who offer up meaningful topics of DISCUSSION (as opposed to the DICTATION of the aforementioned) are likely subjected to ridicule and condemnation.

Some of these old threads get added to and updated constantly, by the same wagging tongues, with exceptional amounts of blah, blah, blah. I happen to notice that for the most part, the threads that have that curious large amount of input also happen to have an exclusive, small number of posters. This leads me to believe that those threads are of very little interest to the majority of forum users. The interests seems pretty much confined to that select, very, very few. In those postings, I personally find a form of vanity in the posts that I find offensive. The dictation, or monologue, meant to be taken with seriousness, is lost on me: He who lives in the glory of the deeds of others loses his opportunity to make his own good mark on the world. While the glory of his champions might live for generations, he won’t be remembered or missed and his time on earth is, most sadly, lost.

I couldn’t give a rat‘s butt about those topics or any of the information found therein. However, I also choose to ignore the threads. They don’t concern me. I find that some of the topics deal with the accomplishments of others in matters that don’t matter. While I’m bewildered that anyone would waste their time (and money) caring about such things when they could much more easily spend their time actually contributing to a better world, I have to stop and realize that different things make us tick. Their windings aren’t wound like mine (Hardly any are, I know). But I don’t spend my time attacking those posters. Let them post their nonsense. Let them take the deeds of others and find a personal relevance in it. To each his own. I don’t get it. I never will. I’ll just focus on what I do get and not waste my time or theirs by arguing my point. I won’t even bother with replies that address the vanity that is so apparent. That isn’t what the forum is for. And for those that find those musings to be right up their alley, then THEY have found the forum to be what they wanted. And the rest of us leaving you alone in your small world without ridicule or criticism is our silent pardon and forgiveness for your character flaw. You’re welcome.

On to another point. The forum is referred to as the “Expat forum”. Actually, in Thailand, it is referred to as THE Expat forum. It is the go-to source for info on living and dying here. True, a lot of postings are about the negative things we experience. At the same time, it is good to post about the negatives and help others avoid those traps or circumstances. What might be a common sense thing to avoid for a person from one country and background might not even be on the radar of a person from another set of experiences. What one person learned and how it was handled, is often very helpful to others. The way in which one person handles a negative experience might be a quick ticket to a butt-kicking. So, reporting, discussing, lending critiques and offering support when dealing with the negatives adds to the quality of life.

Concerning Thias reading this “Expat” forum and finding the Expat thinking to be offensive, I’ll say this: My wife has a keen interest in this forum. She is an educated Thai. Her family (also educated) has a keen interest in this forum. They know how we see things here. They don’t find it offensive. They know what happens here. They know that it is a part of the culture and they know it isn’t as bad here as it is in other parts of the country. They ARE embarrassed by the negatives that we, the Expats, experience. They experience it themselves and that is just a part of life to them but they are REALLY embarrassed when outsiders are subjected to improper experiences here.

We discussed this particular thread and here is the result- Do they think we should write about these things? Yes. They want others to know what to avoid in order to lessen the damage to the name of the country and especially, CR.

Do they think we should call out a salesclerk or shop owner who is separating us from more baht than they should be? Yes, and they see us as stupid and easy if we don’t figure up the bill ourselves AND diligently count our change AND notify the boss if there is a discrepancy. They say that is the only way to fix the problem and we‘re making it worse when we don‘t care or we let it slide for other reasons

Do they see us as stupid? Yes, but only because we let others take advantage of us. They say it is common knowledge that the Farang is stupid on that point and it is a common discussion point among locals. They point out that when one of us lets someone get over on us, it only encourages the likelihood of it happening to more of us. They tell me that it happens to EVERYONE in this culture and NOBODY should let it pass if it can be addressed. The Thais lose money to this type of nonsense from a few bad eggs if they aren’t careful and we Farang lose more because we aren’t careful or are too shy to mention it when it happens. And in the eyes of a small percentage of the population, we have “Steal from Me” stamped on our foreheads and we ought to be very, very aware of that.

The last question I asked my family concerning this thread, (though they have mentioned this issue before, after reading other threads in the CR forum) is what general sense they got from this thread. The answer, unfortunately, is that they just do not understand why the Farang are so hateful to each other or how we can say the things to each other that we do AND do it publicly like this. AFTER reading what the haters said, they asked me “Don’t these people know that some Thais read this? Why do they say those words to him?“ They didn’t think the OP was out of line at all and in fact, said that they hope newcomers read this thread early in their experience with CR. They really are proud of the fact that CR isn’t as bad as some of the other areas and they want CR to get better, for the good of all, but especially to attract more foreign income. The topic of the thread wasn’t any big thing to them; just another aspect of life in Thailand. How we treat each other IS a wonder to them. As many posts as there were in this thread, the hater’s posts are what this family remembers and will be talking about.

To the Thais reading this, I say, “Yeah, we’ve got some real jewels amongst us. But in your reading, you have also seen lots of good here. And yes, some of us know to count our change and to figure the bill, just as you do. We’ll continue to live here, keep our eyes and hearts open and just as you do, we will learn which of the locals to avoid and which to embrace. You can continue to read our forum and you will know the same about our group".

To brahmburgers and villagefarang, I say, “You guys are a few of the contributors that keep this thing interesting and actually add some good discussion points. I see that after particularly nasty responses from the usual suspects in the past, you guys have just bailed for long periods of time. This thing is as much yours as it is theirs. Lots of people just sit silently in awe when it hits the fan here. I’m usually one of them. I usually just don’t know how to respond to such behavior on this forum. In fact, sometimes I just log off and forget about it for a while. But this time I won’t. Get in here and get back to posting the good things that you post that actually give us cause to discuss something. Help to make this more than the one-sided crap that a small minority of others would have it be. Believe me, I’m not alone in my thinking.”

Please forgive any typos. I'm in a hurry.

Thanks Kandahar, funniest post I`ve read in a while

[brahmburgers]

I find it laughable (and yet sad) that anyone thinks that this topic shouldn’t be discussed on this forum. I find it offensive that anyone thinks they can bully someone else that chooses to post about their legitimate experience with this topic on this forum. (edited for brevity)

Concerning Thais reading this “Expat” forum and finding the Expat thinking to be offensive, I’ll say this: My wife has a keen interest in this forum. She is an educated Thai. Her family (also educated) has a keen interest in this forum. They know how we see things here. They don’t find it offensive. They know what happens here. They know that it is a part of the culture and they know it isn’t as bad here as it is in other parts of the country. They ARE embarrassed by the negatives that we, the Expats, experience. They experience it themselves and that is just a part of life to them but they are REALLY embarrassed when outsiders are subjected to improper experiences here.

We discussed this particular thread and here is the result- Do they think we should write about these things? Yes. They want others to know what to avoid in order to lessen the damage to the name of the country and especially, CR.

Do they think we should call out a salesclerk or shop owner who is separating us from more baht than they should be? Yes, and they see us as stupid and easy if we don’t figure up the bill ourselves AND diligently count our change AND notify the boss if there is a discrepancy. They say that is the only way to fix the problem and we‘re making it worse when we don‘t care or we let it slide for other reasons

Do they see us as stupid? Yes, but only because we let others take advantage of us. They say it is common knowledge that the Farang is stupid on that point and it is a common discussion point among locals. They point out that when one of us lets someone get over on us, it only encourages the likelihood of it happening to more of us. They tell me that it happens to EVERYONE in this culture and NOBODY should let it pass if it can be addressed. The Thais lose money to this type of nonsense from a few bad eggs if they aren’t careful and we Farang lose more because we aren’t careful or are too shy to mention it when it happens. And in the eyes of a small percentage of the population, we have “Steal from Me” stamped on our foreheads and we ought to be very, very aware of that.

To brahmburgers and villagefarang, I say, “You guys are a few of the contributors that keep this thing interesting and actually add some good discussion points. I see that after particularly nasty responses from the usual suspects in the past.....

Thanks Kandahar, funniest post I`ve read in a while

I say 'thanks Kandahar' in a sincere way. chang35baht says 'thanks' in his usual sarcastic way. Indeed, if there was a prize for extreme sarcasm, chang35baht would take it, with Limbo a close runner up. Perhaps I should just concede that those two are much better at dealing with Thais than I, and simply see if they're willing to join me for my waking hours - going wherever I go. They could show me correct ways to act in public. And each time, before I venture to speak to a Thai, they could coach me on the proper things to say.

Seriously though, they plow through lines and lines of interesting sentences (from forum contributors they don't like), fervently looking for the little things they can twist around to ridicule.

And for those descending to the desperate bleatings of 'if you don't like Thailand, leave!' - All I can say is, I'm here for the long term. I'll likely die in Thailand. I have activities I enjoy, and good friends, here. Some are Thai, others are hill tribe, Burmese, Lao, and a few farang. Lately, I been working shoulder to shoulder, 8 hours a day, with several Akha guys - doing strenuous outdoor stuff; building, site preparation, planting things, mixing cement by hand, moving big rocks around. We all get along like high school kids on a binge. A great way to work up a sweat.

I admit, I'm somewhat cynical at times, and would complain about some things regardless of where I resided. I resided for a quarter century in northern California and complained about things there, though even while doing that (and same for me in Thailand), I could see many of the attributes of the place and its people. Anyone who reads my threads closely will notice that every time I find fault with something, I always offer suggestions for solutions. Finding fault is not always a bad thing. If I see a hole in a window screen, I might make a mention - while adding that someone (maybe me) will fix or replace it - in order to keep insects out of the house.

Perhaps the perpetually sarcastic cloister on this C.Rai forum have such a great ways of dealing with their lives and situations, that they can demand others be just like them. No can do. The French have a saying which I like; "vive la difference' or another phrase popularized in the 60's: 'different strokes for different folks.' I'm ok with that.

Edited March 24, 2010 by brahmburgers

[jubby]

I've not read all of Khandahars post but I do suspect I would agree with it.

Brahms is just giving us an 'Heads up' . Most of these places don't need a Calculator so there is little chance of a 'wrong' calculation.

The Till tells the cashier what change to tender. OK. its possible to still get it wrong. I suspect in most cases the Cashier has probably switched off due to boredom, but no doubt someone somewhere will be trying it on because of the simple truth that all farangs are rich and wouldn't miss a couple of hundred baht so there's no shame in it

Some of Brahms posts are interesting, some not, whats the problem. why do we constantly have people acting as Mini Moderators on this forum.

[villagefarang]

Thanks for the honorable mention Big K.

I was away briefly. Busy with my blog, a problem with my internet connection which persisted for several days, and a last minute invite to visit a friend in Chiang Mai over the weekend.

After clearing up more important things, I had a look to see what you guys had been up to in my absence. I have to say, I wasn't disappointed to have been away.

People seem to love their inflammatory catchwords and spread them liberally throughout their posts. It is little wonder to me that others then respond in kind and things escalate.

On the topic, I find a fairly balanced accounting of mistakes in my favor, as opposed to it. The wife always checks the bill as she pays for everything when we are together. Guess I just consider it common sense to take a second look when dealing with money.

What doesn't make sense to me is the need for name-calling and inflammatory labels from either side of this, or any other discussion. A more civil tone from everyone would go along way to making these pages a more welcoming place.

[cmjantje]

First of all:

@ Kandahar: You are very right when you say that 1 to 15% of the members control the forum. That is not unusuall. If you really want the worst example try to read the Chiangmai forum. The sarcasm to newcomers, the stupid answers if you want some information from the old ones... Just read it and you will discover that the CR forum is very, very mild.

I miss UG's contribution to your post because he is very present on that CM forum and imho one of the rulers from that forum.

On the other hand may I say that ALL my questions were answered here on this forum by.... Yes... The older memebers (in time not in age).

Many times these people know eachother in person already a long time and know things about them we don't, let's be honest, a forum is very anonymous. So sometimes it is possible that one of them reads something from the other and he Knows it cannot be sincere or thruthfull.

In my opinion, as long as you are not calling eachother names or curse, critisism is not wrong on a forum even if it is personal. That is why it is a forum.

@brahmburgers: Also I was critised by Limbo. But at least he made a point. Most of his critisisms are build on knowledge. Something I cannot say from others.

Being in LOS for 5 years now and living in CR for more than half a year I only can say that I feel very content here in Chiangrai or, what the oldies say: The Rai. I lived in CM 4 and a half years and still don't know where to buy or get some things there.

Here I know what I wanted to know and I am sure I will have more questions, which all will be answered by the same people.

Edited March 25, 2010 by cmjantje

[kandahar]

First of all:

@ Kandahar: You are very right when you say that 1 to 15% of the members control the forum. That is not unusuall. If you really want the worst example try to read the Chiangmai forum. The sarcasm to newcomers, the stupid answers if you want some information from the old ones... Just read it and you will discover that the CR forum is very, very mild.

I miss UG's contribution to your post because he is very present on that CM forum and imho one of the rulers from that forum.

On the other hand may I say that ALL my questions were answered here on this forum by.... Yes... The older memebers (in time not in age).

Many times these people know eachother in person already a long time and know things about them we don't, let's be honest, a forum is very anonymous. So sometimes it is possible that one of them reads something from the other and he Knows it cannot be sincere or thruthfull.

In my opinion, as long as you are not calling eachother names or curse, critisism is not wrong on a forum even if it is personal. That is why it is a forum.

@brahmburgers: Also I was critised by Limbo. But at least he made a point. Most of his critisisms are build on knowledge. Something I cannot say from others.

Being in LOS for 5 years now and living in CR for more than half a year I only can say that I feel very content here in Chiangrai or, what the oldies say: The Rai. I lived in CM 4 and a half years and still don't know where to buy or get some things there.

Here I know what I wanted to know and I am sure I will have more questions, which all will be answered by the same people.

Nice post, cmjantje.

I have read the other forums and I agree, that this one is usually a better place to be.

I also agree that if someone makes a lousy choice in posting a thread, it will quickly peter out on its own due to lack of interest. If it has merit, it will live for a while. No need for censors making those decisions for the rest of us. If you have nothing to contribute, then don't.

I have offered up a few answers and a bit of advice here but I'm certainly not one of the "older members". I have perused the different forums for several years but only in the last year did I decide to actually get involved. I don't have much time in-country, either, but I do have good teachers supporting me in my day to day understandings of the place and I'm fairly observant. In the matter of age, I see that most of these guys have a lot of years on me, even if they don't have the wear and tear that I do. So, while I AM one of the more handsome members, I can't claim to be an old hand at this thing.

I have read a few of UG's posts in this forum and others. While he seems to be a prolific poster, I can't say that I have seen him being pushy. But I don't visit the CM forum much. I do understand his point that people make mistakes and the more times they count money in a day, the more likely mistakes can occur. That's a gimmie. On the other hand, logic and science tells us that the number of mistakes ought to be about equal, concerning short-changing and overcharging vs long-changing and undercharging. In my old life in another country, things were about equal. Here, it isn't even close, so while his statements are true, the facts don't support his argument in my experiences. I have never visited his establishment and maybe things are equal under his roof. Good on him, if so.

[Ulysses G.]

My post was not meant to offend anyone. I just want to point out that all of us make mistakes and we should not jump the gun and assume that we are being cheated too quickly. I know that I often made that mistake when I first arrived here and later came to regret some of the insinuations that I had made to people who probably had not intended to do any harm.

[brahmburgers]

If a person notices he's been shortchanged, he might think to himself, 'wow, I've just been shortchanged. That's once in five years. Not bad, when you consider the hundreds of transactions I've done in that amount of time.'

May be true, ...or may be that person's been shortchanged often, but only noticed it that one time.

Moral of story: try to be aware of what's happening when you purchase things. If you don't mind losing money, then that's up to you. However, for the few people who habitually short-change - the longer they can do it without getting in trouble, the longer they're likely going to keep doing it.

A comparison: Let's say you're walking alongside a road and see an old piece of wood in the road with rusty nails sticking up, you have a choice of things to do. You can:

A. do nothing, thinking 'I don't drive this road, so it's not my issue.'

B. Tell someone later, 'Hey, you might want to know, there's a potential tire puncturing item in such 'n such road.

C. Do what the 'go back to your country' crowd would recommend: Don't change a thing about Thailand. This is not your country, so the most you'll ever be here is a guest. If those nails are in a Thai road, then that's a Thai thing and doesn't involve you.

D. Take the naily board out of the road and toss it in a garbage bin - or out of harm's way.

......up to you

[villagefarang]

That board with the rusty nail could have easily fallen off someones overladen truck. Surely some farangs would take it personally and label the perpetrator a criminal, thug, terrorist or a member of some conspiracy to puncture the tires of unwitting farangs, or even him personally.

One can do something about a situation, without all the labeling, as in the case of picking up the board and tossing it. If there is a likely culprit near by, like a construction site, one could politely return the item with a worried expression that they might have lost this valuable piece of property. One could even show a helpful spirit of concern that their trucks might get a flat tire.

The typical expat response of getting all overheated, loud and calling people names or derogatory labels, doesn't do much more than make one look like an ass, making people forget what it was you were on about to begin with.

How you deal with situations in Thailand is as important as what you do. Some call it, form over substance, but break protocol at your own peril. Being the irate and offended farang is so cliche. Try a little tact and you might get better results.

[sceadugenga]

Don't touch it, could be a set up, Farang steals valuable building materials!

[villagefarang]

Don't touch it, could be a set up, Farang steals valuable building materials!

There we go with the inflammatory words again. I wasn't 'stealing' it, I was only borrowing it and had every intention of returning it…if you caught me.

[sceadugenga]

Don't touch it, could be a set up, Farang steals valuable building materials!

There we go with the inflammatory words again. I wasn't 'stealing' it, I was only borrowing it and had every intention of returning it…if you caught me.

You don't happen to be related to my wife do you?

[kandahar]

My post was not meant to offend anyone. I just want to point out that all of us make mistakes and we should not jump the gun and assume that we are being cheated too quickly. I know that I often made that mistake when I first arrived here and later came to regret some of the insinuations that I had made to people who probably had not intended to do any harm.

I wasn't offended.

I'll be in CM next week for a couple of days. What and where is your establishment and what are the hours?

[Ulysses G.]

8 AM - 9 PM. If you look at the Chiang Mai forum and click on my banner all will be revealed. By the way, the main store is about 4 times the size of the others and has the best selection.

Please say hi.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[kandahar]

8 AM - 9 PM. If you look at the Chiang Mai forum and click on my banner all will be revealed. By the way, the main store is about 4 times the size of the others and has the best selection.

Please say hi.

Okay. If we can get there, we will. Got a lot going on while we're in CM but I hope to have some free time to check out your place.