Red Shirt Movement In Thailand And The Buddhist Monks

[midas]

I have read a number of posts on Thai Visa from farang contributors about the red shirt movement

and some farangs who seem self confident in implying that this political group is a kind of of " lunatic fringe "

When I read these postings I often wonder how many of these contributors who are so critical of the

red shirts are sitting in their luxury condo’s on Sukhumvit Road or somewhere similar without them even having set foot in rural

Thailand let alone trying to get a better understanding of the sentiment of Thai people outside Bangkok ?

As a farang in Thailand I had the interesting experience of spending this past weekend ( one night ) visiting

Khon Kaen to attend the ordination of twin brothers as they became Monks in a rural Temple in a small village

about 30 kilometers outside the Khon Kaen City.

Needless to say the very large number of family and friends were virtually all red shirts supporters

but what I found more fascinating was that there was a television set that was switched on almost

the whole time tunded to the " red shirt live overage TV channel " - at a rather loud volume.

So loud in fact that even when the most senior Monk in the Temple addressed visiting groups

throughout the day and even when all the senior Monks gathered at certain times of

day to chant and pray together, the senior Monk used a microphone to speak

while at the same time no one even considered turning down the volume tv.

I thought it would have been more appropriate and respectful for someone to have done this

but the senior Monk didn’t seem to mind about this at all.

At different times in the day and night, even the Monks stopped and sat down to watch the live TV coverage.

To me this suggests that the red shirt movement is actually much wider

and is taken much more seriously in rural Thailand than some people on Thai Visa have given credit.

More importantly, if the Temple I visited is at all representative of the feelings of the Monks in other villages around Isaan,

then I think the red shirt movement will be surprisingly resilient and stronger than even I would have ever thought.

Just my observation. I think this is going to go on for a long time...............

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

To me this suggests that the red shirt movement is actually much wider and is taken much more seriously in rural Thailand than some people on Thai Visa have given credit.

<snip>

Of course it is, but you don't get anywhere in politics - or on this forum - by admitting how popular your opposition is.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

What an excellent post Midas, thank you for taking the time to post!

[gotlost]

Thanks midas I see this every time that I go to Surin.

[Jingthing]

They are popular in Isaan. This is news? General Robert E. Lee was popular in the Southern US during the great unpleasantness. He lost too ...

Edited March 23, 2010 by Jingthing

[Dodobird]

They are popular in Isaan. This is news? General Robert E. Lee was popular in the Southern US during the great unpleasantness. He lost too ...

I fully agreed with you Jingthing, may I ask why appisit don't agreed to a fresh election? Or perhaps he got the answer?

[thaijasmine]

They are popular in Isaan. This is news? General Robert E. Lee was popular in the Southern US during the great unpleasantness. He lost too ...

No Jingthing you have obviously missed my point.

I was merely expressing my surprise that

( a ) the Monks appeared to attribute so much importance to following the red shirt movement that they

provided continual coverage of events on a tv set at the Temple and the volume from the television set seemed louder than their own chatting and praying

- it just seemed to me as an observer that the Monks were also deeply interested because..............

( b ) It is not so easy for farangs on this forum to denigrade the Monks as being uneducated and easily brainwashed

as some have suggested regarding other red shirt supporters

[givenall]

They are popular in Isaan. This is news? General Robert E. Lee was popular in the Southern US during the great unpleasantness. He lost too ...

I fully agreed with you Jingthing, may I ask why appisit don't agreed to a fresh election? Or perhaps he got the answer?

Sooner Thaksin is out of the picture the sooner the Thai people will have peace. If Thaksin truly a leader and good politician he would know this and would not play the people or use them to try to get what he wants

[ozzieovaseas]

It is an interesting point,

Could it be that their position (the monks) simply comes from having more compassion for the plight of the poor?

I guess if Thai politics and its model of democracy is not on the top order of their daily business, then they could also be seduced into the thinking this is merely a case of elites vs. the poor?...in which case the red propaganda machine has done its job.

In any case i guess they have seen more of the countrys struggling folk than the average farang.

[JetsetBkk]

They are popular in Isaan. This is news? General Robert E. Lee was popular in the Southern US during the great unpleasantness. He lost too ...

No Jingthing you have obviously missed my point.

<snip>

I don't think he did. He's just trying to trivialise any post that mentions Thaksin's popularity.

Normal tactics for the yellows.

Edited March 23, 2010 by JetsetBkk

[anotherpeter]

They are popular in Isaan. This is news? General Robert E. Lee was popular in the Southern US during the great unpleasantness. He lost too ...

No Jingthing you have obviously missed my point.

I was merely expressing my surprise that

( a ) the Monks appeared to attribute so much importance to following the red shirt movement that they

provided continual coverage of events on a tv set at the Temple and the volume from the television set seemed louder than their own chatting and praying

- it just seemed to me as an observer that the Monks were also deeply interested because..............

( b ) It is not so easy for farangs on this forum to denigrade the Monks as being uneducated and easily brainwashed

as some have suggested regarding other red shirt supporters

Why would a monk be any less brainwashed than the other locals? What is a monk but a local poor farmer (or son of a poor farmer) that has become a monk for a while.

How educated are they? What education do monks get that the the locals don't get? Most Thai guys become monks for a short time (1, 3, 6 months). Do they get more education in that time than they get in the 6, 9 or 12 years they spend in school?

Just with them watching the red channel all day shows that they are getting a biased view of the world. (and I'd say that if they were only watching some other channels or only reading the nation, too.)

Theoretically, a monk shouldn't even be watching tv.

They are monks, but they are still human, they are still poor, they still need money, they still listen and believe propaganda, especially when that is all that they hear.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

They are popular in Isaan. This is news? General Robert E. Lee was popular in the Southern US during the great unpleasantness. He lost too

Great, another of histories tyrants being added to the pile. I'm loving it! Let's see, who do we have left.. covered all recent South American dictators, SE Asian ones.. now we're venturing into history.

Why would a monk be any less brainwashed than the other locals? What is a monk but a local poor farmer (or son of a poor farmer) that has become a monk for a while.

How educated are they? What education do monks get that the the locals don't get? Most Thai guys

snip.

and so it begins.

And, to point out the obvious, note the first post where the word 'Thaksin' fell, again. Honestly it's time you guys start debating issues instead of brining up this personal fetish every single time.

[anotherpeter]

They are popular in Isaan. This is news? General Robert E. Lee was popular in the Southern US during the great unpleasantness. He lost too

Great, another of histories tyrants being added to the pile. I'm loving it! Let's see, who do we have left.. covered all recent South American dictators, SE Asian ones.. now we're venturing into history.

Why would a monk be any less brainwashed than the other locals? What is a monk but a local poor farmer (or son of a poor farmer) that has become a monk for a while.

How educated are they? What education do monks get that the the locals don't get? Most Thai guys

snip.

and so it begins.

And, to point out the obvious, note the first post where the word 'Thaksin' fell, again. Honestly it's time you guys start debating issues instead of brining up this personal fetish every single time.

What is beginning?

The OP puts monks above others, but I'm asking why are they any different to poor farmers? 'Thaijasmine' also points out that monks can't be brainwashed, and I'm asking why not.

No mention of Thaksin.

[Samuian]

It is an interesting point,

Could it be that their position (the monks) simply comes from having more compassion for the plight of the poor?

I guess if Thai politics and its model of democracy is not on the top order of their daily business, then they could also be seduced into the thinking this is merely a case of elites vs. the poor?...in which case the red propaganda machine has done its job.

In any case i guess they have seen more of the countrys struggling folk than the average farang.

This might be, but in this case it is ONLY the Marketing/PR Campaing's selling point!

THIS is the PROBLEM!

It has been mentioned already by the "Abhisit-Military-Junta-Government" that if they (UDD, DAAD) steer

clear off their Sponsor (how can they?) it would be a different thing, it's NOT against the red

shirt movement (UDD, DAAD) or that they (grass root people) might have genuine grounds for grievances, BUT

Thaksin as their Cheer leader and the ones like Nattawut, Jakrapop and Saeh Daeng are simply

the wrong choices and their way to express their "grievances" is way off the "democratic path" isn't it?

The notion that their dear cheer leader has been "unjustly" sentenced, by a biased, politically motivated court,

that this man has "nothing done wrong".... well, it's the wrong approach camouflaged by a "grass root movement" of the "poor"

their plight is being exploited - so who is ion the wrong side again?

Besides that their chosen leaders are certainly NO "Phrai" as their dear leader and chief sponsors!

Threads, Grenades, Violence, Intimidation, shootings, murder..... I don't think that this is the "buddhist path" either!

and MONKS shouldn't become politicized in any way..... they should not take sides and stay clear of movements

ready to enact violence and suppress others - whatever, however!

They are blatantly USED - their cause, has been made a cause, since long someone who can';t be mentioned here, cared for them and this wasn't just 5-6 Years, but 60!

And now it's about who holds the torch of the future and NOT about the plight of the "Phrai" this is for certain.....!

But then TiT and how much does it take to get the abbot of a certain Wat on to your wagon?

It's all money, money, money, money... and this is the really sad part of the whole story..... maybe the TV Set's are all Donations - who knows

There's something very, very fishy here.... and it doesn't take the usual claqueurs, long to show up and donate their standing ovations - despite how wrong all this is... even here on ThaiVisa - where many should know better!

Sad, to see people allowing just a handful of people to (miss)lead them for a cause, which is their very own and personal agenda - well history's books are full of such fools!

Edited March 24, 2010 by Samuian

[ferd54]

I think an insightful post by the OP. While we can debate the many flaws of Thaksin, what is probably of most significance is that he managed to ignite the flame of activism among the rural underclass (finally).

It's sad that Thailand has such poor leaders that the disenfranchised are willing to view Thaksin as a hero -- but hopefully the movement will outgrow him and take on a life of its own.

This indeed could be just the beginning. I've long held the view that it will take a revolution to improve the whole rotten system. It might take a violent one.

[thaihome]

Would like to ask the OP where specifically in “rural” Thailand he is talking about. Maybe, rather then saying the district, he could give us some insight into the political makeup of the area. Does he know who the MP is that represents these people? What party does he belong to? Is the MP connected in some why to the local “godfather” (son, son-in-law, daughter, etc). Does the OP know who that might be? What is the name of the godfather faction? Who is it currently aligned with? Does he know what economic hold that godfather has over the local people? Transportation, building supply, rice buyer?

I can give the exact same storey, except where I go, the local godfather is not a supporter of the UDD and guess what? When the UDD recruiters came through a couple of weeks ago, they were totally unsuccessful in getting anyone from the village to go, despite the 2,000 baht offer.

So, my point it is, the OP is being a typical western liberal romantic, thinking this is some sort of true “populist” movement that is portent of some great social change in Thailand. Sorry, its not. It’s about one guy trying to get his billion and half dollars back.

The OP needs to a much better job trying to understand the local politics and quit trying to fit into his western liberal paradigm

TH

Edited March 24, 2010 by thaihome

[midas]

Why would a monk be any less brainwashed than the other locals? What is a monk but a local poor farmer (or son of a poor farmer) that has become a monk for a while.

How educated are they? What education do monks get that the the locals don't get? Most Thai guys become monks for a short time (1, 3, 6 months). Do they get more education in that time than they get in the 6, 9 or 12 years they spend in school?

Just with them watching the red channel all day shows that they are getting a biased view of the world. (and I'd say that if they were only watching some other channels or only reading the nation, too.)

Theoretically, a monk shouldn't even be watching tv.

They are monks, but they are still human, they are still poor, they still need money, they still listen and believe propaganda, especially when that is all that they hear.

I don’t think it is fair for you to class all Monks the way do you.

I know very little about the Buddhist religion but I am constantly intrigued by what I have seen

and experienced during the 5 years I have lived in Thailand.

If you are not prepared to acknowledge that at least some of older and most senior

Monks probably have a capacity for intellectual reasoning far far beyond your ability or my

abillty then I wonder how you can possibly fully succumb to the wonders of Thai society?

Would you would like to go even further and try to suggest the religion itself is a form of brainwashing ?

What right do you have to say the monks should not be watching tv regarding these historic events ?

I asked myself are the Monks following events so closely because there is a much deeper

issue at stake which will ultimately affect the very fabric of Thai society - one which that no farang could ever hope to fully

understand unless he or she grew up in these circumstances ?

And if the Monk’s shouldn’t be watching tv, then also maybe so many farangs here shouldn’t be so instantly

critical of those involved in this ongoing struggle because as more time passes by, my understanding is that

this issue is far more complex than any of us " outsiders " can ever hope to know.

[midas]

Would like to ask the OP where specifically in “rural” Thailand he is talking about. Maybe, rather then saying the district, he could give us some insight into the political makeup of the area. Does he know who the MP is that represents these people? What party does he belong to? Is the MP connected in some why to the local “godfather” (son, son-in-law, daughter, etc). Does the OP know who that might be? What is the name of the godfather faction? Who is it currently aligned with? Does he know what economic hold that godfather has over the local people? Transportation, building supply, rice buyer?

I can give the exact same storey, except where I go, the local godfather is not a supporter of the UDD and guess what? When the UDD recruiters came through a couple of weeks ago, they were totally unsuccessful in getting anyone from the village to go, despite the 2,000 baht offer.

So, my point it is, the OP is being a typical western liberal romantic, thinking this is some sort of true “populist” movement that is portent of some great social change in Thailand. Sorry, its not. It’s about one guy trying to get his billion and half dollars back.

The OP needs to a much better job trying to understand the local politics and quit trying to fit into his western liberal paradigm

TH

WOW !

Actually the purpose of my post was to contradict all those farangs who continually denigrade the red shirts as simply being uneducated and easily manipulated.

I am a farang and I would never be so bold as to profess that I understand the complexity of Thai rural society as you seem to do thaihome.

Did you grow up in Isaan and can you speak and write the local dialect of Thai in Isaan ( which as you know more like the Lao language ).

I would suggest if you don’t then it is you who is trying to fit the motivation and way of thinking of the senior Monks at this Temple “ into his western liberal paradigm “

[thaihome]

No, I did not grow up in Isaan and nor can I speak and write the local dialect. But I have taken the time over the past 10 years to understand the local politics; I know who the MP is. I know who the TAO member from the mooban is and how he got elected. I know who the local godfather is and how he and his family controls the district (actually two adjoining provinces). I know what his political history is and what his current political party is and where in this current situation he stands. Over the years, I have witnessed several elections, both for local offices and national so I know how campaigns and elections are conducted, at least in this area.

Why would having grown up in Issan or even speaking Thai (or Lao) be a requirement to understand the local economics and politics? Simply asking questions, doing some basic research and taking the time to analyze what you have learned is all that is required.

You seemed to have missed my point completely, so never mind.

TH

Edited March 24, 2010 by thaihome

[anotherpeter]

I don't think it is fair for you to class all Monks the way do you.

I know very little about the Buddhist religion but I am constantly intrigued by what I have seen

and experienced during the 5 years I have lived in Thailand.

If you are not prepared to acknowledge that at least some of older and most senior

Monks probably have a capacity for intellectual reasoning far far beyond your ability or my

abillty then I wonder how you can possibly fully succumb to the wonders of Thai society?

Would you would like to go even further and try to suggest the religion itself is a form of brainwashing ?

What right do you have to say the monks should not be watching tv regarding these historic events ?

I asked myself are the Monks following events so closely because there is a much deeper

issue at stake which will ultimately affect the very fabric of Thai society - one which that no farang could ever hope to fully

understand unless he or she grew up in these circumstances ?

And if the Monk's shouldn't be watching tv, then also maybe so many farangs here shouldn't be so instantly

critical of those involved in this ongoing struggle because as more time passes by, my understanding is that

this issue is far more complex than any of us " outsiders " can ever hope to know.

"Would you would like to go even further and try to suggest the religion itself is a form of brainwashing ?"

I didn't suggest that the religion brainwashed them (although I think that of all religions), I pointed out that just because they are monks that doesn't stop them being brainwashed by the red propaganda.

My understanding of becoming a buddhist monk was for them to separate themselves from society to meditate on life.

I think you misunderstand my post. You were the one putting the monks on a higher pedestal than the people around them. I was just pointing out that the monks ARE THE SAME as the people around them.

[rixalex]

They are popular in Isaan. This is news? General Robert E. Lee was popular in the Southern US during the great unpleasantness. He lost too ...

No Jingthing you have obviously missed my point.

I was merely expressing my surprise that

( a ) the Monks appeared to attribute so much importance to following the red shirt movement that they

provided continual coverage of events on a tv set at the Temple and the volume from the television set seemed louder than their own chatting and praying

- it just seemed to me as an observer that the Monks were also deeply interested because..............

( b ) It is not so easy for farangs on this forum to denigrade the Monks as being uneducated and easily brainwashed

as some have suggested regarding other red shirt supporters

Some clarification is i think needed from the OP, Midas, as to whether the comments of thaijasmine are his.

[midas]

No, I did not grow up in Isaan and nor can I speak and write the local dialect. But I have taken the time over the past 10 years to understand the local politics; I know who the MP is. I know who the TAO member from the mooban is and how he got elected. I know who the local godfather is and how he and his family controls the district (actually two adjoining provinces). I know what his political history is and what his current political party is and where in this current situation he stands. Over the years, I have witnessed several elections, both for local offices and national so I know how campaigns and elections are conducted, at least in this area.

Why would having grown up in Issan or even speaking Thai (or Lao) be a requirement to understand the local economics and politics? Simply asking questions, doing some basic research and taking the time to analyze what you have learned is all that is required.

You seemed to have missed my point completely, so never mind.

TH

Ok I respect that ! but I would also add that surely you must also acknowledge Thai rural society is based on

an intricate web of rituals, superstitions and beliefs that must have some bearing on politics and without understanding

all this fully we as foreigners can only scratch the surface .

I am also challenging the perception that ALL Thai’s in Isaan are unable to think or rationalise and simply bribed

and I keep coming back to the Monks because that is specific subject of this thread.

When “ anotherpeter “ asks the question “How educated are they? “ – my god I think that says it all about

some of the farang contributors.

One thing I have learnt to appreciate is the intellectual capacity of some of the older and most senior Monks and it these

people who chose to have this television set blaring away throughout the day and night and that is what I found was significant.

[midas]

I think you misunderstand my post. You were the one putting the monks on a higher pedestal than the people around them. I was just pointing out that the monks ARE THE SAME as the people around them.

You are fundamentally wrong and your oversimplification of Thai society is astonishing !

Haven't you ever noticed that the most important person in the Kingdom of Thailand

also " puts the monks on a higher pedestal " ?

[ferd54]

I am also challenging the perception that ALL Thai’s in Isaan are unable to think or rationalise and simply bribed... when “ anotherpeter “ asks the question “How educated are they? “ – my god I think that says it all about some of the farang contributors.

Yes, they should try "walking in their shoes" for a few decades before they make sweeping -- and incredibly condescending -- pronouncements that the rural people are all bribed, or ignorant, etc.

You have a good point in wondering how much these farangs actually know about the dynamics of it all. The fact remains many rural people believe Thaksin did more for them than anyone else has done; perhaps they actually know what they're talking about. After all, they live it.

[anotherpeter]

No, I did not grow up in Isaan and nor can I speak and write the local dialect. But I have taken the time over the past 10 years to understand the local politics; I know who the MP is. I know who the TAO member from the mooban is and how he got elected. I know who the local godfather is and how he and his family controls the district (actually two adjoining provinces). I know what his political history is and what his current political party is and where in this current situation he stands. Over the years, I have witnessed several elections, both for local offices and national so I know how campaigns and elections are conducted, at least in this area.

Why would having grown up in Issan or even speaking Thai (or Lao) be a requirement to understand the local economics and politics? Simply asking questions, doing some basic research and taking the time to analyze what you have learned is all that is required.

You seemed to have missed my point completely, so never mind.

TH

Ok I respect that ! but I would also add that surely you must also acknowledge Thai rural society is based on

an intricate web of rituals, superstitions and beliefs that must have some bearing on politics and without understanding

all this fully we as foreigners can only scratch the surface .

I am also challenging the perception that ALL Thai's in Isaan are unable to think or rationalise and simply bribed

and I keep coming back to the Monks because that is specific subject of this thread.

When " anotherpeter " asks the question "How educated are they? " – my god I think that says it all about

some of the farang contributors.

One thing I have learnt to appreciate is the intellectual capacity of some of the older and most senior Monks and it these

people who chose to have this television set blaring away throughout the day and night and that is what I found was significant.

If they are intellectual, they wouldn't have a completely biased tv station blaring all day. I'm not suggesting that they should have any of the other biased stations blaring all day either.

"How educated are they?" - I think it's a fair question. Most monks are just locals that just spend a short time at the temples. Some monks are been there a long time, but are still from the same background. They still only hear and see what is around them. They don't usually travel the world to understand what else is out there. They are generally sheltered. They still only hear and see what others want them to hear and see. They are human just like all of us.

[Boo]

Not all supporters of thaksin have been paid to support & not all supporters of thakisn have been influenced by their local political party or village headman. Many of them have made their own informed choice to support him or not for their own reasons. To suggest that they (as a who mass of people?) decide to support one party or another based soley on who the leading MP of the area or who is the influential guy around the ville' is actually quite patronizing & suggests that they are unable to have an independent thought or opinion. Clearly not true ime.

[midas]

If they are intellectual, they wouldn't have a completely biased tv station blaring all day. I'm not suggesting that they should have any of the other biased stations blaring all day either.

"How educated are they?" - I think it's a fair question. Most monks are just locals that just spend a short time at the temples. Some monks are been there a long time, but are still from the same background. They still only hear and see what is around them. They don't usually travel the world to understand what else is out there. They are generally sheltered. They still only hear and see what others want them to hear and see. They are human just like all of us.

Dont be so naive !

" but are still from the same background "

Read this and you see how utterly ridiculous your comment is ............

" with the coming to power in 1851 of King Mongkut, who had been a monk himself for twenty-seven years "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Thailand

Go and travel around Isaan for a few weeks or months and after that then perhaps

we can have a more sensible discussion

Edited March 24, 2010 by midas

[anotherpeter]

I think you misunderstand my post. You were the one putting the monks on a higher pedestal than the people around them. I was just pointing out that the monks ARE THE SAME as the people around them.

You are fundamentally wrong and your oversimplification of Thai society is astonishing !

Haven't you ever noticed that the most important person in the Kingdom of Thailand

also " puts the monks on a higher pedestal " ?

Are you suggesting that just because they become a monk they become "all knowing"?

I am simply pointing out that the ONE temple that you were at that had the red tv blaring, does not represent the feelings of other monks in Issan. It represents what the local area thinks.

Monks and temples can be used just like the poor farmers can be used. Monks are just humans afterall.

[moresomekl]

I am also challenging the perception that ALL Thai's in Isaan are unable to think or rationalise and simply bribed... when " anotherpeter " asks the question "How educated are they? " – my god I think that says it all about some of the farang contributors.

Yes, they should try "walking in their shoes" for a few decades before they make sweeping -- and incredibly condescending -- pronouncements that the rural people are all bribed, or ignorant, etc.

You have a good point in wondering how much these farangs actually know about the dynamics of it all. The fact remains many rural people believe Thaksin did more for them than anyone else has done; perhaps they actually know what they're talking about. After all, they live it.

I am farang , my gf is thai from village near Khorat . I do fully support the red shirts in their call for better justice , education and opportunities in life , they have been neglected for way too long . I agree that Thaksin is very popular in Isaan though to a variable extent depending on which part of Thailand . But does it mean that he can corrupt the system like offfering up to 55 milions bahts to MPs to join the PTP , buy the judiciary , promote violence according to US NSA intercept of his phone discussion , and generally speaking abuse power and enrich himself . Not to mention his horrific human right records .. I dont think so ...

Edited March 24, 2010 by moresomekl

[thaihome]

Not all supporters of thaksin have been paid to support & not all supporters of thakisn have been influenced by their local political party or village headman. Many of them have made their own informed choice to support him or not for their own reasons. To suggest that they (as a who mass of people?) decide to support one party or another based soley on who the leading MP of the area or who is the influential guy around the ville' is actually quite patronizing & suggests that they are unable to have an independent thought or opinion. Clearly not true ime.

It is not patronizing to say that local politics affects how much support the Thaksin or the UDD have there. It is a fact of Thai politics and to say otherwise is denying reality. There are significant areas of the north east that are controlled by factions that are either not supporting the UDD or remaining neutral in this current situation. You would be hard pressed to find many UDD supporters in these areas. I say that, because the area I am familiar is one that is neutral and not a single person came to Bangkok or supports Thaksin or the UDD.

TH