Red Shirt Movement In Thailand And The Buddhist Monks

[rixalex]

offfering up to 55 milions baths to MPs to join the PTP ,

Bet they'd still stink.

[anotherpeter]

If they are intellectual, they wouldn't have a completely biased tv station blaring all day. I'm not suggesting that they should have any of the other biased stations blaring all day either.

"How educated are they?" - I think it's a fair question. Most monks are just locals that just spend a short time at the temples. Some monks are been there a long time, but are still from the same background. They still only hear and see what is around them. They don't usually travel the world to understand what else is out there. They are generally sheltered. They still only hear and see what others want them to hear and see. They are human just like all of us.

Dont be so naive !

" but are still from the same background "

Read this and you see how utterly ridiculous your comment is ............

" with the coming to power in 1851 of King Mongkut, who had been a monk himself for twenty-seven years "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Thailand

Go and travel around Isaan for a few weeks or months and after that then perhaps

we can have a more sensible discussion

OK ... I'll rephrase then.

The monks that have been there a long time *may* have travelled for further education in Buddhism.

IMO, that doesn't mean that they know everything about what is happening. They still only hear and see what is around them.

I'm not suggesting that all temples are like that, even all temples in Isaan.

But this ONE temple that you mention has a tv blaring all day with red propaganda. With that going all day, this particular temple already has a biased view of the situation.

I don't believe this represents all (or even a majority) of monks and temples in Isaan.

[moresomekl]

offfering up to 55 milions baths to MPs to join the PTP ,

Bet they'd still stink.

oops ... "bahts" ,, sorry . classic typo

[anotherpeter]

Also, another point on the original OP:

The fact that most of the people there were red supporters, is it possible that they set up the tv?

The monks/temple, making money from the occasion, didn't object to it.

It doesn't necessarily reflect opinions in any other temples in Isaan, because the monks don't have an opinion on it.

[SurinLA]

Maybe you care to read my opinion on this topic. I grew up in a small rural village 75 miles from Surin. I am truly one of the "Phrai" under Taksin and Co. definition, but I do not appreciate it. I can speak LAO, KMER, SUAY , THAI and ENGLISH. I will speak for what I have learned in my Province and the neigbhors. I am not red or yellow or anyone supporter.

I believe the people should turn off the volume during the monk ceremony and they suppose to. In all ceremonies that the monk present and do the chanting, we suppose to listen and be quiet, although we do not understand when monk chant in Sansakrit. I myself believe that to be quiet and stay calm during monk ceremony is just the way to meditate ourself and relax our mind for a moment.

It is disrepectful for not turning the volume down. If they really believe in ceremony that "may" bring them luck, any interuption during the chanting will do them no good. The senior monk may not tell people to turn the volume down because monks suppose to show nuetral feeling, like no sin and no anger. The house owner should tell the controller to turn it down or turn it off.

When monks watch RED Shirt Protest on TV, it maybe because it is the only TV to watch there. Whoever controls the TV and volume, will not allow anyone to turn to different channel. We can see a small dictator here.

Also, there maybe the symphaty of the monks to the Red because; (Someone may correct me if I am wrong here), I believe during the Taksin Admin, they enact the Budhist Relegion into the Dept. of Cultural and..so and so. They almost made Budhist as the only Thailand Religion which I do not support at all. They created a new policy to give a salary to the monk. This is why you see a lot of MONKS came out to the protest. It's all about MONEY.

I do not support giving salary to the monk. Buddha never recieved any salary. Monk supposes to recieve whatever is offered from the people. Monk supposes to be neutral and walk in the middle. Temple should be the center of everyone to come together for celebration. In the last 8 years, I have found that Monks in my Province and mostly in Esan are greedy and very sinful. When we have ceremony, we offer some money in envelope to monk during the food offering time. Currently, monks start to ask people how much we will put money in the envelope. If anyone have a ceremony and give so little money, monks will be upset and complain.

Do Monks and many Esan people are brainwashed? I believe so. The Red movement have spreaded their agendas all over ESAN. They built so many radio stations called "Community Station", and have their own TV that only spread their propagandas. Radio staions used a somewhat famous or ex-famous Esan cultural icons to host the program, playing Esan popular music, and brainwash them with all of the ideas from the RED Movement. It reminds me of the Communist Movement in Surin when I was a kid.

One of the reason the Esans are still obcessed with Taksin because of his "I give you the money" policies.

Many of his policies were good, but money of them were corrupt. There was no money being given for FREE. People don't know that. They don't care if this is a borrow money. They just want "MONEY" For example, the "1millionn bath per village" project. It was created 6 years ago or so. The people who owed 10,000 baht at 6% interest 6 years ago, are still owe 10,000 baht or more now. Many of the debt clearing programs never helped them. Instead, it has created more debts to the farmers. Many people have to sell their lands to the wealthier one because they cannot payoff debts. There are hundred of programs from Taksin admin. that still cause a lot of problems to the farmers. My province, SURIN, is the #1 with peole in debts.

Esan people now are less kind to each other or to the neighbors. They became more materialistic society Since Taksin became the PM. In my village /my county/province, we used to go hunting for rice crabs, frog, or fish during rainy season or dried season. Now, most people would rather stay home, do nothing, and buy cooked food for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. We used to help eachother work in the farm. We would ask the neighbors to help work and offering them free lunch and dinner. Now we will have to pay them in order to get help on every occasion. They want their children to finish Mo 3, which is 9th grade and sent them to Bangkok to work. Very few families send kids to colledge. The parents stay home waiting for money to be sent monthly. Then, couple years later, their children bring them home a grandchildren. It becomes such a big problem all over EASN now.

If you ask where are their "Representative; SO-SO"?. They only show up during the election campaign. Majority of So-So from ESAN are Taksin's party " Thai For Thai". They were bought to join the club. Election in Esan is like Mafia. It involves so many crooks and gameplans to try to buy votes to win. If Aphisit desolves the parliament now, the "Thai for Thai or Thai for Money", will win the new election. Most educated people know what will happen if the TFT party be the govenment. They will control everything even your freedom of speech. I am sure this "ThaiVISA.COM" will be shut down immediately after they win.

They don't respect human right. Remember during the Taksin years, he ordered every media to broadcast only good news and about him. We were not able to post any comments, specially if it attacks his policies. Remeber The Nation webboard had to filter all the comments and sometimes your comments would never been published. Remember they shut down the bars at 1 AM? There are more things all of you may want to study why you should never want Taksin and CO. to run the country. This is Thailand, not China.

[Jingthing]

Some people are overly impressed by people in religious costumes. Here and everywhere. Did the story happen in a non Thaksin region? No. That would be of interest. The OP story is completely unsurprising in a Thaksin area.

[twschw]

As a farang in Thailand I had the interesting experience of spending this past weekend ( one night ) visiting

Khon Kaen to attend the ordination of twin brothers as they became Monks in a rural Temple in a small village

about 30 kilometers outside the Khon Kaen City.

So, based on a one night visit, to one temple you are able to discern:

...that the red shirt movement is actually much wider

and is taken much more seriously in rural Thailand than some people on Thai Visa have given credit.

Incredible

[Samuian]

.......edited to shorten..

While we can debate the many flaws of Thaksin, what is probably of most significance is that he managed to ignite the flame of activism among the rural underclass (finally).

He became aware in the process, it's the only and willing tool he can easily manipulate at will with some handouts and more promises!

It's the mandate he needs so urgently to consolidate his power and he knows it too well!

The downside of all this is, it isn't a noble cause it's down right evil, cause this is used as a storefront to sell something nobody of those selling it, really wants to give, all they want is to reinstall their very own "Amatiya"!

Ever seen some of the "phrai" he insists to represent, at his dinner table, driving his car, holding some of the Shin shares?

Ever really seen something really GOOD done by this man for these people, really,except talk and promises?

It's a phrase this "but he did a lot of good" - it's the Sales mantra of the TRT Elitists

He had his people tell them again and again in his PR Campaigns that it will be so... but never really happened!

I knew a girl which died a bitter death at home, a shack not in Isaan but just at the doors of the Capitol, alone,

suffering from breast cancer whilst under the 30 baht "health insurance" cover...

she was send home again and again with Paracetamol!

That is how "Good"it all is.... since!

The "loans, no strings attached"?

What else, the Rice Pledging Project which has the rice price in shatters and huge cost burden to the government, the TAXPAYER?

It only benefited the mills and exporters, his cronies!

What else, his Empire, build on State assets, Connections, contracts and connections,

shares price hikes on lowering state concession fees for his advantage?

What else "good" did he do?

Rid the country of Drugs and it's peddlers "once and for all"?

Pacify the south "within 6 month's"?

Did he?

What other "successes"?

Please enlighten the critical "blind" audience!

Who gained the most from all of this?

Edited March 24, 2010 by Samuian

[midas]

Some people are overly impressed by people in religious costumes. Here and everywhere. Did the story happen in a non Thaksin region? No. That would be of interest. The OP story is completely unsurprising in a Thaksin area.

does that include those wearing silly little hats ?

[midas]

As a farang in Thailand I had the interesting experience of spending this past weekend ( one night ) visiting

Khon Kaen to attend the ordination of twin brothers as they became Monks in a rural Temple in a small village

about 30 kilometers outside the Khon Kaen City.

So, based on a one night visit, to one temple you are able to discern:

...that the red shirt movement is actually much wider

and is taken much more seriously in rural Thailand than some people on Thai Visa have given credit.

Incredible

I said " To me this suggests that the red shirt movement is actually much wider

and is taken much more seriously "

Obviously to you it doesnt ...........so what ?

[Jingthing]

Some people are overly impressed by people in religious costumes. Here and everywhere. Did the story happen in a non Thaksin region? No. That would be of interest. The OP story is completely unsurprising in a Thaksin area.

does that include those wearing silly little hats ?

Sure. Was that some kind of bait, dear?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

.......edited to shorten..

While we can debate the many flaws of Thaksin, what is probably of most significance is that he managed to ignite the flame of activism among the rural underclass (finally).

He became aware in the process, it's the only and willing tool he can easily manipulate at will with

..snip.. Classic. You refuse to get the point he was making, and that it was in NO WAY related to Thaksin other than an effect he caused. He was saying (and it's sad that I have to quote his exact words verbatim that are a mere 2 inches above this line) that for whatever Thaksin's flaws, the thing that matters is that it ignited the flame of activism among the rural underclass.

That is key, yet immediately and predictably you turn back to Thaksin, the person. (And it's not just you either). That's just an astonishing and irrational phobia that seems to eclipse any and all arguments that are made about Thai politics and society. It truly hinders any discussion when one side just goes back to Mr. Thaksin over and over again. Honestly, why? How about going a week without mentioning Thaksin completely, and debate issues during that week? How about next week? I'm fully expecting some to experience physical withdrawal symptoms by going cold-turkey like that, but ultimately it should be enlightening for everyone.

Edited March 24, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Jingthing]

The current red shirt demands REMAIN focused on Thaksin. If the reds drop him, then we all can. Until the reds do dump the criminal, it is outrageous to suggest that the opposition does. Cheers.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

So.. because a particular movement does or doesn't do something, that should hinder the progress of a discussion on an Internet forum? Really? Surely you decide your own actions? I know I do?

Edited March 24, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Jingthing]

So.. because a particular movement does or doesn't do something, that should hinder the progress of a discussion on an Internet forum? Really? Surely you decide your own actions? I know I do?

Look, W, you claim you are some kind of objective observer when it is clear that you have a consistent pro red agenda. It would help the reds with PR with non reds to be considered as separate from Thaksin. But they are not. Thaksin is front and center to the red movement. Of course a red promoter knows that hurts their discussion with educated western people. So yes we can control, and no, leaving Thaksin out is DISHONEST!

[midas]

..snip.. Classic. You refuse to get the point he was making, and that it was in NO WAY related to Thaksin other than an effect he caused. He was saying (and it's sad that I have to quote his exact words verbatim that are a mere 2 inches above this line) that for whatever Thaksin's flaws, the thing that matters is that it ignited the flame of activism among the rural underclass.

That is key, yet immediately and predictably you turn back to Thaksin, the person. (And it's not just you either). That's just an astonishing and irrational phobia that seems to eclipse any and all arguments that are made about Thai politics and society. It truly hinders any discussion when one side just goes back to Mr. Thaksin over and over again. Honestly, why? How about going a week without mentioning Thaksin completely, and debate issues during that week? How about next week? I'm fully expecting some to experience physical withdrawal symptoms by going cold-turkey like that, but ultimately it should be enlightening for everyone.

Agreed ! someone needed to do it........

How else could the rural dwellers ever be heard in Bangkok.........

I think about Mahatma Gandhi and the " untouchables "

[WinnieTheKhwai]

So.. because a particular movement does or doesn't do something, that should hinder the progress of a discussion on an Internet forum? Really? Surely you decide your own actions? I know I do?

Look, W, you claim you are some kind of objective observer when it is clear that you have a consistent pro red agenda.

I have a fairly consistent pro-people and pro-democracy agenda, yes. But as I've pointed out time and again, I see far too many fools and lunatics on those stages to claim support for the Red Shirts comprehensively. And especially not for that politician everyone keeps talking about, again including many on the Red Shirt stages.

It's just not nice when someone tries to make a reasoned analysis (correct or otherwise) and the only response they get is a 'Thaksin is a villain' rant in return.

[midas]

So.. because a particular movement does or doesn't do something, that should hinder the progress of a discussion on an Internet forum? Really? Surely you decide your own actions? I know I do?

Look, W, you claim you are some kind of objective observer when it is clear that you have a consistent pro red agenda. It would help the reds with PR with non reds to be considered as separate from Thaksin. But they are not. Thaksin is front and center to the red movement. Of course a red promoter knows that hurts their discussion with educated western people. So yes we can control, and no, leaving Thaksin out is DISHONEST!

You dont seem consistent Jingthing ?

In other threads you admit you are a " progressive " and you fiercly defend Obama's policies at every opportunity

on the basis of social equality and yet you dont have seem to have an ounce of compassion

for the red shirt supporters who have been socially disadvantaged for too long ?

[kikoman]

The plight of the rural poor is an issue, I live in a central Thailand Provence and many express red shirt backing.

At this point it would be wise to state that the plight of the rural poor in Thailand and the red shirt movement are to different subjects, disenfranchised people the majority of the population of Thailand, liked Thaksin agenda as the political leader of the government, that passed a lot of legislation to help the rural poor, that is what is desired, not the return of Thaksin.

That is where the red shirt movement come in the ruling elite that was displaced by the courts system and funded by Thaksin money are exploiting the issue of the rural poor and Thaskin as the only Thai politician that did something for the poor while in office.

What is the solution! Thailand is going to be in a state of these emotions, until the Thai government/the powers that be realize that the only way,they are going to defeat the political base of the rural poor, is to start passing programs that will ease the financial burden on the poor.

The minimum wage in Thailand is under 200 baht per day, the price farmers get for growing rice is falling, government loans must be paid when due, inflation is cutting into rural income.

Those are conditions that are ripe to be exploited, those are the conditions that have been the cause of many revolution across the globe.

I heard so much complaining by posters on this forum that say Thailand is expensive to live in (for them). think of the effect it is having on the poor in the country. When another election is held Thaksin power elite will be re-elected. Because the EDUCATED Democratic coalition can not see ,the value of helping the poor in Thailand.

Cheers:

[WinnieTheKhwai]

So.. because a particular movement does or doesn't do something, that should hinder the progress of a discussion on an Internet forum? Really? Surely you decide your own actions? I know I do?

Look, W, you claim you are some kind of objective observer when it is clear that you have a consistent pro red agenda. It would help the reds with PR with non reds to be considered as separate from Thaksin. But they are not. Thaksin is front and center to the red movement. Of course a red promoter knows that hurts their discussion with educated western people. So yes we can control, and no, leaving Thaksin out is DISHONEST!

You dont seem consistent Jingthing ?

In other threads you admit you are a " progressive " and you fiercly defend Obama's policies at every opportunity

on the basis of social equality and yet you dont have seem to have an ounce of compassion

for the red shirt supporters who have been socially disadvantaged for too long ?

Yes, I find that highly interesting too. And it's not just JT either. When it comes to Western/US politics, I completely agree with every word he writes. On Thailand however it's the exact opposite, there he suddenly supports an outdated, unfair and unjust neo-feudal system, pretty much unconditionally.

[Jingthing]

So.. because a particular movement does or doesn't do something, that should hinder the progress of a discussion on an Internet forum? Really? Surely you decide your own actions? I know I do?

Look, W, you claim you are some kind of objective observer when it is clear that you have a consistent pro red agenda. It would help the reds with PR with non reds to be considered as separate from Thaksin. But they are not. Thaksin is front and center to the red movement. Of course a red promoter knows that hurts their discussion with educated western people. So yes we can control, and no, leaving Thaksin out is DISHONEST!

You dont seem consistent Jingthing ?

In other threads you admit you are a " progressive " and you fiercly defend Obama's policies at every opportunity

on the basis of social equality and yet you dont have seem to have an ounce of compassion

for the red shirt supporters who have been socially disadvantaged for too long ?

Yes, I find that highly interesting too. And it's not just JT either. When it comes to Western/US politics, I completely agree with every word he writes. On Thailand however it's the exact opposite, there he suddenly supports an outdated, unfair and unjust neo-feudal system, pretty much unconditionally.

US and Thai politics are very different. I see Thaksin as a very dangerous megalomaniac and it makes no difference whether he was of the left or the right. My Thai politics are 100 percent anti-Thaksin. However, you CLEARLY have not read my posts if you believe I am not in favor of major reforms to help the poor in Thailand. They just need to dump Thaksin. Any movement associated with Thaksin is poison. The reds try to pass off Thaksin as a Mandella, a Gandhi, an MLK, etc, when it is clear to educated people he is more like a Peron, a Marcos, a Chavez, yes, even a Hitler or Pol Pot. You can't have a legit social justice movement with a rotten villain at its head.

BTW, there are some rabidly RIGHT WING posters here (not naming names) in regard to US politics who are also rabidly pro Thaksin. So don't even go there. You can't directly compare US and Thai politics, PERIOD.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds

Ralph Waldo Emerson

Edited March 24, 2010 by Jingthing

[rixalex]

They are popular in Isaan. This is news? General Robert E. Lee was popular in the Southern US during the great unpleasantness. He lost too ...

No Jingthing you have obviously missed my point.

I was merely expressing my surprise that

( a ) the Monks appeared to attribute so much importance to following the red shirt movement that they

provided continual coverage of events on a tv set at the Temple and the volume from the television set seemed louder than their own chatting and praying

- it just seemed to me as an observer that the Monks were also deeply interested because..............

( b ) It is not so easy for farangs on this forum to denigrade the Monks as being uneducated and easily brainwashed

as some have suggested regarding other red shirt supporters

Some clarification is i think needed from the OP, Midas, as to whether the comments of thaijasmine are his.

A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice Midas.

[midas]

US and Thai politics are very different. I see Thaksin as a very dangerous megalomaniac and it makes no difference whether he was of the left or the right. My Thai politics are 100 percent anti-Thaksin. However, you CLEARLY have not read my posts if you believe I am not in favor of major reforms to help the poor in Thailand. They just need to dump Thaksin. Any movement associated with Thaksin is poison. The reds try to pass off Thaksin as a Mandella, a Gandhi, an MLK, etc, when it is clear to educated people he is more like a Peron, a Marcos, a Chavez, yes, even a Hitler or Pol Pot. You can't have a legit social justice movement with a rotten villain at its head.

BTW, there are some rabidly RIGHT WING posters here (not naming names) in regard to US politics who are also rabidly pro Thaksin. So don't even go there. You can't directly compare US and Thai politics, PERIOD.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds

Ralph Waldo Emerson

US and Thai politics are very different - not right now !!!

both are inextricably linked by one word……Corruption !

[lannarebirth]

US and Thai politics are very different - not right now !!!

both are inextricably linked by one word……Corruption !

here's another word they have in common..... entropy.

[Netfan]

They are popular in Isaan. This is news? General Robert E. Lee was popular in the Southern US during the great unpleasantness. He lost too ...

No Jingthing you have obviously missed my point.

<snip>

I don't think he did. He's just trying to trivialise any post that mentions Thaksin's popularity.

Normal tactics for the yellows.

First, thanks for once again confirming Thaksin = Red movement / Red movement = Thaksin.

Second, just because people do not support the Red tactics, propensity for violence and a return of Thaksin, DOES NOT mean they support the yellow shirts. You can believe that the airport shutdown was an embarrassment and disaster for Thailand and should never have happened, all the while believing that a return of Thaksin (the sole aim of Red movement) is also a bad thing for Thailand.

As for the OP, nice to hear of your experience, did you happen to ask where were those 20,000 monks that were promised at the rally?

[thaihome]

...

I think about Mahatma Gandhi and the " untouchables "

Now you are just engaging in demagoguery and hyperbole. To equate the condition of Thailand’s rural poor with India’s “untouchables’” is just ludicrous. The problems of Thailand’s rural poor would more accurately be compared to the urban poor in the projects and ghettos of the large US cities. Billions of dollars worth of program such as you propose have spent trying to alleviate the plight of these poor people. Sociologist have studied these for generations since they were formed starting back in 30’s trying to puzzle why they are perpetuated but nevertheless some manage to escape. The only conclusion that they have been able to come to is the common thread among those that have risen above that is they are intelligent, ambitious, motivated people raised and supported by strong functioning families not scarred with alcoholism and or drug abuse and moral decay that come with them and have raised themselves up by their bootstraps as we used to say, despite the prejudices against them for their race and origins.

Now take that and apply it to the people you know from rural Thailand and see how the ones that have succeeded in life and those that are still stuck there with their sense of entitlement fit.

TH

[WinnieTheKhwai]

You dont seem consistent Jingthing ?

In other threads you admit you are a " progressive " and you fiercly defend Obama's policies at every opportunity

on the basis of social equality and yet you dont have seem to have an ounce of compassion

for the red shirt supporters who have been socially disadvantaged for too long ?

Yes, I find that highly interesting too. And it's not just JT either. When it comes to Western/US politics, I completely agree with every word he writes. On Thailand however it's the exact opposite, there he suddenly supports an outdated, unfair and unjust neo-feudal system, pretty much unconditionally.

US and Thai politics are very different. I see Thaksin as a very dangerous megalomaniac and it makes no difference whether he was of the left or the right. My Thai politics are 100 percent anti-Thaksin. However, you CLEARLY have not read my posts if you believe I am not in favor of major reforms to help the poor in Thailand. They just need to dump Thaksin. Any movement associated with Thaksin is poison. The reds try to pass off Thaksin as a Mandella, a Gandhi, an MLK, etc, when it is clear to educated people he is more like a Peron, a Marcos, a Chavez, yes, even a Hitler or Pol Pot. You can't have a legit social justice movement with a rotten villain at its head.

BTW, there are some rabidly RIGHT WING posters here (not naming names) in regard to US politics who are also rabidly pro Thaksin. So don't even go there. You can't directly compare US and Thai politics, PERIOD.

I think we're getting somewhere. We may have some common ground after all. In addition to ditching Thaksin, there's a whole host of others who are equally villainous or quite possibly more so, say the Chalerms of this world, however none of those were as shrewd as Thaksin so they never made it to the forefront to the degree Thaksin did. The Chalerms, Sanohs and Chavalits of this world never actually worried the highest echelons, AND never gained true traction with the rural poor either other than election day hand-outs.

[rixalex]

I believe the people should turn off the volume during the monk ceremony and they suppose to. In all ceremonies that the monk present and do the chanting, we suppose to listen and be quiet, although we do not understand when monk chant in Sansakrit. I myself believe that to be quiet and stay calm during monk ceremony is just the way to meditate ourself and relax our mind for a moment.

It is disrepectful for not turning the volume down.

Indeed, i would have thought whether it had been "red" TV, "yellow" TV, cartoons, news or soap operas, it's not appropriate to have a nearby TV turned up to maximum volume, drowning out all other sounds including what the monks are saying. That it is tolerated or perhaps even encouraged, reflects badly on the temple.

[anotherpeter]

The plight of the rural poor is an issue, I live in a central Thailand Provence and many express red shirt backing.

At this point it would be wise to state that the plight of the rural poor in Thailand and the red shirt movement are to different subjects, disenfranchised people the majority of the population of Thailand, liked Thaksin agenda as the political leader of the government, that passed a lot of legislation to help the rural poor, that is what is desired, not the return of Thaksin.

That is where the red shirt movement come in the ruling elite that was displaced by the courts system and funded by Thaksin money are exploiting the issue of the rural poor and Thaskin as the only Thai politician that did something for the poor while in office.

<snip>

There is a general agreement here about the plight of the rural poor. There is no doubt something needs to be done about it. And things are being done by this government. Enough? I don't know.

There is general disagreement about what Thaksin actually did for the poor. And if it would really help if he was back here.

And there is general disagreement about what the reds actually stand for. Too many of them (particularly the leaders) talk about Thaksin, so it is very hard to support the reds while they are talking about bringing him back.

No one can say that the Red shirt movement is NOT about Thaksin when their leaders start off most of their demands with "allow Thaksin to come back" and "give Thaksin his money back".

There is so much evidence of the things Thaksin "did for the poor" that were not actually that beneficial. Most of what Thaksin did went to the middle man. There is also so many corrupt things that Thaksin did to the country. After 5 years of Thaksin government, were the poor any better off? How many people are losing their farms because of the debt they got into with the Thaksin "cash handouts" and "cheap loans". But Thaksin finished his 5 years as PM with many billions of dollars because of corruption during this time.

Thaksin not only exploited the issue of the rural poor, he also exploited the rural poor.

When the red leaders stop bringing Thaksin into their speeches and stop demanding that he be allowed to come back and not serve his jail sentence, THEN most of the anti-reds on this forum will actually become pro-red.

Stop thinking that anti-red is also anti-poor, or even pro-yellow. Anti-red is anti-Thaksin.

Pro-red posters say they are not pro-Thaksin, but they are pro-poor. But at the moment the red shirt leaders can not separate the two issues. Until they do, sorry, but I will continue to be anti-red.

[way2muchcoffee]

I have a fairly consistent pro-people and pro-democracy agenda, yes. But as I've pointed out time and again, I see far too many fools and lunatics on those stages to claim support for the Red Shirts comprehensively. And especially not for that politician everyone keeps talking about, again including many on the Red Shirt stages.

It's just not nice when someone tries to make a reasoned analysis (correct or otherwise) and the only response they get is a 'Thaksin is a villain' rant in return.

I understand your frustration Winnie. The problem is that the redshirts have not, and probably cannot, divorce themselves from this man. Their other demands cannot be taken seriously until they make their other issues the priority. An offer of house dissolution is already on the table from the Abhisit government. The only conditions are (1) freedom to campaign, (2) Thaksin cases remain in the judiciary without political interference, and (3) no vote buying or electoral fraud in the election. The reds are demanding house dissolution and de-emphasizing the Thaksin situation. They have this opportunity for house dissolution, but they do not take it. Why not? That they can't agree to the conditions outlined above immediately calls into question the true purpose of the demonstrations.

Edited March 25, 2010 by way2muchcoffee