Downer

[Tyee]

Greetings!

I have spent considerable time and energy on the internet, exploring Thailand as the place where I can retire with dignity, and perhaps share my 40 years experience in video production and communication.

I elected Chiang Mai as my first choice to "check out" on my 30 day initial visit. This choice was based on livability, climate, and opportunity to explore.

However, my expactations were shaken when I ran across this internet entry:

I have some advice to any westerners out there contemplating moving to Thailand.

If you are rich and are sensible with money, then go ahead. If an international company or similar offers you a high salary job in Thailand then fine. If you are retired or have steady funds from aboard and want to live modestly on those funds, go ahead, but watch yourself. And if you’re a young dude traveling around the world, and you want to spend some time in Thailand teaching or whatever for experience, then that’s OK too.

If you don’t fall into these categories then “don’t” consider it for a moment. Many middle-aged westerners in particular (including professionals) like the idea of living there, having a business or making some money and “enjoying life” in Thailand. But very few make it. (Forget about western restaurant or bar owners and alike you might meet in Thailand boasting about their good life there. It is common for faltering foreigners to keep up appearances). Mostly they end up broke or crazed, sometimes both, then they leave. Thai business, visa and residency laws get you in the end. The “Thai way” will get you in the end. Have a minor run-in with a wealthy or important Thai and your status and possibly your life will be at risk. Their whole culture is geared around making sure that foreigners pursuing individual efforts are not successful. It’s ingrained in them from an early age to believe that they are the never-colonized master race of Asia (yes they really think that) and their mythology runs so deep you’ll never budge it. Remember, in Thailand you’ll never have any real business, legal or ownership rights. But Thai’s can go to your country (very possibly) and buy and own anything they can get their hands on (because of the more tolerant business laws). To Thai’s, this is just further evidence of how clever they are, and how foolish are the foreigners to go to Thailand.

Remember too, that Thailand is dominated by a comparatively small military-industrial elite. They have all the power and most of the wealth in the country. The idea of western foreigners living in the country and achieving wealth and status through individual entrepreneurial efforts is seen as a threat to the hegemony that they have over the Thai underclass - the bulk of the population. For this reason, it is never allowed to happen.

Think of Thailand, for westerners, as being a bit like a casino. A casino is a place with a touch of excitement, the lure of good fortune / the good life, and a place for fun, even with a bit of a risk. Go to a casino every now and then for fun and that’s OK. Go there everyday all-day and you will ultimately lose, because the House Advantage will always get you. So it is in Thailand. The Thai “House Advantage” will get you. They make sure of it.

Of course, if going to Thailand with all your money and slowly losing it and ending up teaching English for a pittance (because that’s about all you can do), either illegally or working legally but being treated like a serf by Thai institutions, appeals to you then go ahead. And running around the country several times a year getting visas, or always being at the mercy of authorities on visa matters might be your bag. If so, then go ahead, at least you’ll be able to spend your nights at cheap restaurants sharing your impoverishment and frustration with other exploited western teachers. If not, think seriously.

In case you are thinking, let me say that I am not a former go-go bar owner gone bust, I have not lost my all doing business with Thai’s, no I haven’t been cheated of everything by a bar-girl, no I haven’t been reduced to the indignity of teaching English for a pittance. I have my own money, have spent a lot of time in Thailand, and have done some business there, have observed the experiences of a lot of foreigners, can see what goes on, and have enough concern to want to tell others about it.

If my words can prevent even one westerner of modest means from selling up and going to “enjoy life” in Thailand (and getting shafted in the end) then that will be something. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that as a foreigner (even with professional skills) you can “make a contribution” to Thailand, no matter how good your intentions or needed your skills may be. Your contribution will never be welcomed, only your money. There is a saying in Thai that captures it well: “farang roo mark my dee” - foreigners who know too much [about Thailand] are no good. Gullible tourists, however, are great.

So, go to Thailand as a tourist if you like, enjoy what you enjoy there, but don’t be taken in by the culture or people, as many westerners have, and don’t under any circumstances give up anything back home to go and stay there unless you are financially secure for life, or know exactly what you are doing.

There is a tradition of resident foreigners in Thailand not telling you the truth about the country because they don’t like to admit to themselves and to others about the mistake they have made in moving there. But especially now, with the financial mess Thailand has got itself into through a mixture of greed, incompetence, arrogance and corruption, and the prospect of difficult times ahead (to say the least) it is time for plain speaking.

A final comment to anyone who strongly disagrees with these comments. Unless you have lived, worked and conducted business in Thailand for many years, I’m not interested. The views of “oh how can you say that, Thailand is really great” 2 week tourists carry no weight with those of us who know Thailand and Thai’s well.

Please comment and advise.

Tyee

[Erwin1011]

I could not have been said better !

[The_Doctor]

I don't fall in those categories, and I love it here!

[Ajarn]

The Troll 'Dr. Smith' hath returned, once again. First posting of this, some 8 years ago. and resposted in various Thailand-related forums.

" Dr. Smith Aug 4 1997, 3:00 am show options

Newsgroups: soc.culture.thai

From: "Dr. Smith" <[email protected]> - Find messages by this author

Date: 1997/08/04

Subject: Don't Move to Thailand

Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse

I have a some advice to any westerners out there contemplating moving to

Thailand.

If you are rich and are sensible with money, then go ahead. If an

international company or similar offers you a high salaried job in

Thailand then fine. If you are retired or have steady funds from abroad

and want to live modestly on those funds, go ahead, but watch yourself.

And if you're a young dude travelling around the world, and you want to

spend some time in Thailand teaching or whatever for experience, then

that's OK too.

If you don't fall into these categories then *don't* consider it for a

moment. Many middle aged westerners in particular (including

professionals) like the idea of living there, having a business or

making some money and "enjoying life" in Thailand. But very few make

it.(Forget about western restaurant or bar owners and alike you might

meet in Thailand boasting about their good life there. It is common for

faltering foreigners to keep up appearances). Mostly they end up broke

or crazed, sometimes both, then they leave. Thai business, visa and..........."

Ad nauseam....

As always, Buyer Beware

[AsiaWolfie]

wow, this is the best comment about the "real Thailand" I have ever read in my life....and the best thread ever in thaivisa I have seen so far.....and its all so true 100%..... I wished I would have had a chance to move to safe and stable wonderful Malaysia, or to that angel with the dirty face called "Indonesia"....but now I am here and have to make the best of it....hahaha.....but everybody who is planning to move to LOS or even do business there (I read some very naive posts of newbies about that in the past few days)

[Thetyim]

Very well written and sadly true

[AsiaWolfie]

even he might have copied most parts of it from somebody else, its still truth anyway.....oh ya.....I was not online in 1997....started 1998, unfortunately.....

[pedro01]

Well - I don't fall into the categories above & I'm doing pretty well here - thank you very much - 2 houses, good savings, high income & a bunch of Thais working for me in a succesful software business.

Been here over 5 years too, so I even fill his qualifications to make comment.

[moebius]

Well - I don't fall into the categories above & I'm doing pretty well here - thank you very much - 2 houses, good savings, high income & a bunch of Thais working for me in a succesful software business.

Been here over 5 years too, so I even fill his qualifications to make comment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're not bitter or suspiscious. I think that disqualifies you on technicalities.

[SarahH]

Oh my, another call to arms for the other bigots and racists around here.

[chownah]

I think his remarks are especially true of the North. The North sucks. His remarks are not so true of the South. My advice is if you don't want the misfortune he describes is to go South....not North....definitely not North...definitely.....

[Brian2056]

You mean I can't live happily ever-after at the Nana Entertainment Plaza?

[Steve2UK]

I think his remarks are especially true of the North.  The North sucks.  His remarks are not so true of the South.  My advice is if you don't want the misfortune he describes is to go South....not North....definitely not North...definitely.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Keep it going, Chownah!

If you haven't already seen it, I'll think you'll enjoy the read at this link (particularly from "Good post" onwards) :

http://talesmag.com/rprweb/the_rprs/pacifi...hiang_mai.shtml

Edited May 26, 2005 by Steve2UK

[toyicebear]

What to topic starter obviously fails to take into consideration is that failure in business is not only a risk in Thailand, most countries have a fairly high % of business failures.

The system in Thailand does not make it any easier for foreigners, granted, but based on your level of business expertise it is still possible to do quite well her. This also applies for a wide variety of other countries in the Asian region.

The point is, if you can not succeed in business in your own country, why should you then expect to succeed in Thailand?

Edited May 26, 2005 by toyicebear

[Ajarn]

I think his remarks are especially true of the North.  The North sucks.  His remarks are not so true of the South.  My advice is if you don't want the misfortune he describes is to go South....not North....definitely not North...definitely.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Keep it going, Chownah!

If you haven't already seen it, I'll think you'll enjoy the read at this link (particularly from "Good post" onwards) :

http://talesmag.com/rprweb/the_rprs/pacifi...hiang_mai.shtml

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I liked it, generally. Seemed pretty forthright to me. It was written by the woman who was the main farang woman visa interviewer in CM then, I always thought her a humorless ####, but I was wrong, it seems

[chownah]

I think his remarks are especially true of the North.  The North sucks.  His remarks are not so true of the South.  My advice is if you don't want the misfortune he describes is to go South....not North....definitely not North...definitely.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Keep it going, Chownah!

If you haven't already seen it, I'll think you'll enjoy the read at this link (particularly from "Good post" onwards) :

http://talesmag.com/rprweb/the_rprs/pacifi...hiang_mai.shtml

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I liked it, generally. Seemed pretty forthright to me. It was written by the woman who was the main farang woman visa interviewer in CM then, I always thought her a humorless ####, but I was wrong, it seems

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great article...thanks Steve2UK!!!! I hope everyone will take her example and do what she does....go south with every opportunity!!!!

[maerim]

You mean I can't live happily ever-after at the Nana Entertainment Plaza?

Of course you can, till the money runs out

Remember the way to deep and everlasting happiness is deep and everlasting money especially there.

[bino]

Think of Thailand, for westerners, as being a bit like a casino.  A casino is a place with a touch of excitement, the lure of good fortune / the good life, and a place for fun, even with a bit of a risk.  Go to a casino every now and then for fun and that’s OK.  Go there everyday all-day and you will ultimately lose, because the House Advantage will always get you.  So it is in Thailand.  The Thai “House Advantage” will get you.  They make sure of it.

Interesting post- especially the analogy above.

[sabaijai]

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with Chiang Mai per se, so I'm moving it to General. Probably should have moved it to the Trash Bin ... have at it, troll fans.

[expatinasia]

Tyree,

You've spent "40 years...in video production and communication". Unfortunately, you have no experience in relating to the human condition. You should realize there are pros and cons living anywhere in the world. You've decided that Thailand is a terrible place to live, based on a single anonymous post. In my opinion, you have nothing to add to the Kingdom of Thailand.

[Thetyim]

Tyree,

  You've decided that Thailand is a terrible place to live, based on a single anonymous post.

No he hasn't. Quite the reverse, he wants to live here.

He has read the post and is asking advice from people who live here.

[simcity]

Cert the post a value , and I am in line with it ! What I find good in this country is the facility of many, just to mention, no need booking for restaurant / taxi available / life easy casual / everyday the same or different or same same but different / decide at the moment what you want to do !

Manly good service and smile in many places: the bank / post office and many other place.

Easy to meet, difficult to trust, easy to died .

Sometime a hiccup happen on the way, experience for living here .

But one think for sure ( for me ! ) need to have some money coming to you and not waiting for a Thailand income .

You have to balance the good and bad! More good for me here as living in Paris / Melbourne / or Tasmania.

Just when I want to see what is my country amiability I go to the French or Australian embassy for few hours  you exit with a new love of Thailand..

Cheer

[thymode91]

I think his remarks are especially true of the North.  The North sucks.  His remarks are not so true of the South.  My advice is if you don't want the misfortune he describes is to go South....not North....definitely not North...definitely.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

just wonder if you are living in North?

[roscoe]

I decided not to read the preformed speach(I did actualy); it does seem that you have a pre-disposition (is this correct Ajarn) to failure

[SBACM]

I love this qoute from her:

Morale among Expats? If you're a fifty-year-old guy with a huge gut, a tremendous sense of entitlement, and incoherent political views, who's estranged from his family back in the States and looking to marry an illiterate 17-year-old farmer's daughter, you'll fit right in. Me, I can tell you how many hours are left in my assignment. Oh, fifteen minutes fewer, since I started writing this.

reminds me of last time i was walking down Sukhumvit

I think his remarks are especially true of the North.  The North sucks.  His remarks are not so true of the South.  My advice is if you don't want the misfortune he describes is to go South....not North....definitely not North...definitely.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Keep it going, Chownah!

If you haven't already seen it, I'll think you'll enjoy the read at this link (particularly from "Good post" onwards) :

http://talesmag.com/rprweb/the_rprs/pacifi...hiang_mai.shtml

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Ajarn]

Tyree,

   You've decided that Thailand is a terrible place to live, based on a single anonymous post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No he hasn't. Quite the reverse, he wants to live here.

He has read the post and is asking advice from people who live here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thetyim, if you do some research, you'll learn that the original story was written by a fraud. He was a teacher at cmu during my time there. After I responded, he then formed a few more fake nicks to back himself up. Since then he has reposted this under a couple of other nicks, with the same kind of 'innocent' lead-in... Again, it became clear after I confronted him again, and he attacked me personally, even referring to a private conversation we'd had some time earlier...

I firmly believe his only intention is to vent and trash....and then hide. And I feel that Tyree is just Dr. Smith as another sockpuppet, but that's just my feeling.

'Some' good advice, wrapped in a blanket of deceit, bigotry, and racism...

[buadhai]

If you haven't already seen it, I'll think you'll enjoy the read at this link (particularly from "Good post" onwards) :

http://talesmag.com/rprweb/the_rprs/pacifi...hiang_mai.shtml

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why does someone with an attitude like this get a job with the State Department?

[rossiok]

"Wages and job opportunities for Expats on the local economy? Bangkok is a different story, of course, but most northern expats seem to get all of their income from social security or disability" (mostly psychiatric disability, but that's another story, too).

Sorry this really made me laugh

[duke69]

I belong to the category of well paid managers from overseas companies ....

but I know LOS very well and my personal point of view in the failure of many business in Thailand is that some foreigners come to Thailand thinking that their experience, knowledge, in a such messy country will make them rich or will make them live happily with 2 hours of work everyday (may be less ....)

So the mistake is not in Thailand itself, but in the wrong perception of this country, which is indeed much more competitive of what appers to be!

Most of the foreigners have to understand that 99% of their expertise (on a 8 working hours a day) will bring them about 3-400 Euro per month!!

If they want to work 2 hours a day and earn 4000 Euro, then they are "the problem" not Thailand.

Most of the foreigners (unsuccesfull ones) I met in the past 4 years were unsuccesfull people also in their own country, thinking that emigrating to Thailand was a "competitive advantage" to boost their loser life in the west: loser in the west means 100% will be a loser also in Thailand!!!

Here people can be happy with 1$ a day and a bowl of rice!

[Rumpole]

I think the original post makes some valid points. It certainly encapsulates many of my feelings about living in the country. We all have different expectations, impressions and experiences, but I found Thailand a very difficult place in which to live and work - particularly work. Thailand is certainly not for everyone and views like those expressed by the OP and the diplomat serve as a useful counterfoil to some of the more one-sided, rose-tinted opinions which one often reads on websites devoted to living in Thailand.

I find it a very interesting phenomenon that some Thaiphiles will so often treat anyone who does not happen to share their love of the country and its citizens with the same kind of disdain that Catholics might reserve for someone who defecates in the Sistine Chapel. They appear to have taken on the sensitivities of their Thai “hosts” regarding anything which could be construed as criticism of the country. Those who dare to suggest that Thailand might not be such a wonderful place to live, run the risk of personal attacks and juvenile retorts along the lines of “failure” and “f*** off back to where you came from, then”. Even more insidiously, some Thaiphiles will seek to suppress opinions which are contrary to their own. This is something I have never encountered among expats in any other country.

The original post offers some useful advice to those contemplating a move to the Land of Fake Smiles. Try living there for an extended period first, to see if you like it. Don’t burn your bridges by selling up everything back home, and make sure you have a plan of escape if things should go awry.

Edited May 27, 2005 by Rumpole