Ricky Martin...but You Probably Already Knew That Anyways

[submaniac]

Please file under "I already knew that but I guess it's nice to have confirmation"...Ricky Martin on CNN Thailand related? When "Livin' La Vida Loca" came out, they were playing it alot in Thailand. I remember those days. Hey, you hafta give me something, I don't post alot in this section of the forum.

P.S. he speaks Spanish and so does Peaceblondie. There you go. Thailand related.

Edited March 29, 2010 by submaniac

[Jingthing]

I actually didn't know, only heard some rumors. The thing is, and I am sure about this, if he had come out early in his career chances are you would not know his name. That is sad.

[submaniac]

Well, here in the USA it was a bit of an 'open secret', kind of like Jodie Foster before she came out publicly. The only pictures of Ricky Martin out and about in his private life were with other (really buff) men.

On the subject on whether his career would have suffered had he come out earlier, that is an interesting question. Coming out didn't really put a damper on Jodie Foster's career, Elton John, Ellen Degeneris, or Rosie O'Donnell. Gay or straight, I never had any type of desire to buy any Ricky Martin music. Of course, unlike other stars whose fan base developed in the USA, Ricky Martin crossed over from the Latin American music scene and they aren't too big on homosexuality. Interesting thought though.

[isanbirder]

Isn't it time we treated such 'announcements' not as news but as a piece of free advertising? (Like Elton John saying Jesus was gay? Christopher Marlowe in 1590 said it, and plenty of others too)

[PeaceBlondie]

I found Nicaraguans and Mexicans to be very accepting, 1998-20001. Good for him. Sorry he had to stay in the closet so long. I wasn't totally out in 2002.

[geriatrickid]

Babwa Walters claims that after she pestered Ricky about the gay thing 10 years ago, his denials were basically seen as an admission and his career took a nose dive. So maybe, Ricky was trying to do what George Michael did and save a failing career. Thing is, once Georgie came out his career recovered. Maybe Ricky's will too.

Who knows, who cares, they both blow chunks. Andrew Ridgely probably isn't wondering about Georgie and I doubt the ex members of Menudo are worrying about Ricky. Maybe he can find a job as a waiter.

[bkkguy1970]

On the subject on whether his career would have suffered had he come out earlier, that is an interesting question. Coming out didn't really put a damper on Jodie Foster's career, Elton John, Ellen Degeneris, or Rosie O'Donnell. xuality. Interesting thought though.

but these people all came out after their careers were established - where would Elton be today if he came out after his first successful album rather than after his 20th, or if Jodie came out after her first movie or Ellen came out after her first joke! and what about all of the other movie/sports/music stars that never felt they could come out - yes Liberace I am looking at you amongst others!

On local radio Wave FM 88 today two of the presenters said this "revelation" was so insignificant, it is not like more important issues like Haiti, etc - but if his finally coming out gives hope to (and prevents suicides by) other Latin American gays then I think it is significant because we all need positive role models!

bkkguy

[Jingthing]

I meant early. He made his fame with the teeny bopper girl fan crowd. Its hard to be a sex symbol to that demographic when you are a friend of Dorothy. At this point, it hardly matters that he has officially come out.

[elshaheen]

Most of us who had done some work in Phuket, already knew about him freq. Patpong area from time to time from what one of the Hotel employees stated from time to time.

[LeeRoyX]

actually i guessed earlier Martin's gay...

[gotlost]

Just like Roy Harold Schere Jr. Rock Hudson 1985. The general public was shocked at his demise . Those in the industry knew.

[Guest]

I thought every one knew about Ricky Martin, I didn't know he was trying to hide it. A fuss about nothing as no-one seems to care if he's gay, straight or a Martian, and a good thing too.

[Jingthing]

I still think Martin would not have had a major career if he had openly come out early in his career. It is one thing for there to be rumors and insider knowledge and a completely different thing to definitively come out in the mainstream press. It is way past hurting him now. A great example, suppose Justin Bieber, the current teenie bopper idol came out now. It would hurt him, a lot. It does depend on the kind of marketing plan/entertainer that we are talking about. Elton John I don't think ever presented himself as much of a sex symbol, so there are exceptions.

(No, I am not saying Bieber is a gay boy, but if he was a gay boy, you can be sure he would NOT be coming out anytime soon. That would be crazy.)

Edited April 1, 2010 by Jingthing

[submaniac]

Hmmm....I understand what you are saying about coming out earlier in the career, but there are examples these days where it really hasn't hurt the career. Like Adam Lambert, "American Idol" guy. A huge portion of the fan base are young girls, but he has still managed to have his career going even though he is gay. And whilst we are on the topic, there's also the other "American Idol" Clay Aiken. Now he was never the 'hearthrob', but he is still going after coming out as gay.

[chadintheusa]

Good point, I agree that I would buy just as many Ricki Martin cd's as I would Clay Aiken or Adam Lambert. Doesn't matter if they are gay or not, they still suck.

[LuckyFive8888]

he was ex-menudo and they are all gays...

[Gaccha]

I think this is so sad but for the very opposite reason of everyone else.

The dominant hetero-socionormative regime demands that Ricky confesses and then all will be forgiven, for he can now accpet what is the right way to desire. It characterises the sexual desire as the key to the human identity when actually it is the sexuality regime that is imposed by the micro-powers of society. Foucault's volume 1 of the 'History of Sexuality'(***) brilliantly describes this game.

Lets turn our heads to Thailand. Where we live it is undeniable that a two-step regime exists. The old-style way of thinking of Thais, with loose sex desire categories, and the 1950s american academic position of the mass heterosexual group and the Other ('the gay'). What is so pleasant about Thailand is its refusal to categorise (by sexuality). This allows extraorindary levels of sex transgressions (in the Western eye). Most Thai girls have several 'lesbian' relations at University (just ask), while 1 in 5 Thai boys in Issan want to be girls*.

The problem with Westerners chronically exposed to this sexuality regime of the West is that it appears to be 'the Truth'. They simply see the Thais as not educated enough to understand the sophisticated categories (bisexuals, transsexuals) of this regime (University educated Thais are more likely to follow the Western way of thinking and so in my eyes are more wrong than the Issan villager). A moments thought suggest the regime is unconvincing (i.e. it's main position is an amorphous mass of 90% heterosexuals and then 'the Other' of gays). Yet that 90% mass must actually be foot fetishists, bestiality entrepeneurs, crossdressers, breast lovers and so on. There is no obviously right way to desire. So there is obviously no need to confess.

After I pointed out that a 14-year-old boy with false eyelashes and blue contact lenses violently flirted with me in 7/11, a friend suggested there was a trend to be gay among schoolboys. A trend. Think about that. A trend is the least of stable positionings you can take. He either means it's fake or it is part of human nature but it will pass. But in either event it suggests the Western narrative collapses. Because if it is fake that they can fake male desire is a logical nonsense(**).

So what! (you scream) My point is this, Ricky and anyone else who 'comes out' is playing exactly the game of the Western sexuality regime. You should react against it. You can learn from the way Thais so often elide this issue. By confessing you are not helping a struggle of anything you are reinforcing the Rancierian consensus, when you should be seeking to play dissensus.

(*) I got this speaking to a Buddhist monk studying at Thammasat who wants to derobe, change sex and marry a farang. I felt this was a particularly beautiful example of life in all its glory.

(**) Zizek in The Sublime Object of Ideology points out the phallus is the ultimate unconsious conscious. A male cannot decide to erect, yet it is a given that it is in his control. It cannot be faked.

(***) I should point out that this book is now regarded as one of the most influential books on 'power'. The brilliant deceit of the prologue is worth the book's price.

[popshirt]

Gaccha, excellent post!

By the way what is Rancierian?

[Jingthing]

East is east, and west is west, and they do meet at the N' Touch bar, San Francisco. Martin ain't Thai. Thai culture is valid and so is western culture. It isn't a matter of right and wrong.

[phetaroi]

On the subject on whether his career would have suffered had he come out earlier, that is an interesting question. Coming out didn't really put a damper on Jodie Foster's career, Elton John, Ellen Degeneris, or Rosie O'Donnell. Gay or straight, I never had any type of desire to buy any Ricky Martin music. Of course, unlike other stars whose fan base developed in the USA, Ricky Martin crossed over from the Latin American music scene and they aren't too big on homosexuality. Interesting thought though.

Well, at least in the States, not sure I agree with that completely. I think the difference in how someone behaves (hold on, don't jump to a conclusion yet) says a lot about how that person will be accepted (or not) by the American public. In fact, let me make an analogy with the election of Barack Obama. Barack Obama ran for the presidency as a man who happened to be Black; he won. Had he run a campaign where he was the Black candidate (as did Jesse Jackson a few years ago), he would have lost.

Jodie and particularly Ellen just do their jobs and act like people who happen to be gay.

Elton and Rosie live their lives as being gay. Elton is seen -- in my view -- as a bit of a goof ball after all these years, but generally not disliked. Rosie certainly has her fans, but she is also intensely disliked by many, many people.

[Scott]

This is quite unbelievable. Ricky Martin gay?!! The next thing you know, Ryan Seacrest will come flying out of the closet!

[Gaccha]

East is east, and west is west, and they do meet at the N' Touch bar, San Francisco. Martin ain't Thai. Thai culture is valid and so is western culture. It isn't a matter of right and wrong.

No, I don't accept this. Indeed, this is a classic narrative of the West to see all cultures as unproblematic and as having merit.

Culture is a power imposition. This is most obvious where the culture has something unpleasant to your eyes (e.g. immolation of widow on husband's death(*)). The rules, norms and regimes that make up a culture are a product of fierce power-plays. It is not some unproblematic way of life that can be observed in history and art museums.

My position is that the Western cultural sexuality regime, which is part of the 'cultural package' of the West, is awful.

(*) the british governor of a province of India on being told that this was part of Indian culture responded that in British culture if this happened the British way is to build a big wooden platform and hang the person who immolates the widow.

(By the way, Ranciere is a French philospher whose work on dissensus is extremely apt for the current red and yellow conflict in Bangkok. His theoretical readings of conflict and how it brings about change provide a conceptual framework for understanding the 'game'. See his superb book: Disagreement: Politics and Philosophy (1998))

[somtampet]

I actually didn't know, only heard some rumors. The thing is, and I am sure about this, if he had come out early in his career chances are you would not know his name. That is sad.

Come on Jing,you are telling me his career would not have taken off if he CAME OUT.

I dont know anybody who DIDNT think he was gay,and you know that women love gay men too.

I have never liked his music but that has nothing to do with me assuming he was gay

[Jingthing]

This is total BS. Imagine early Martin. He goes on stage. After the show he invites his boyfriend on stage and gives him a deep kiss. If you believe that wouldn't have seriously hurt his career in his early stages, you are dreaming. He was positioned as a male sex symbol mostly for females. You say he could have been gay. Being gay often means OPENLY showing sexual feelings towards other males. He could NOT have gotten away with that.

[Jingthing]

East is east, and west is west, and they do meet at the N' Touch bar, San Francisco. Martin ain't Thai. Thai culture is valid and so is western culture. It isn't a matter of right and wrong.

No, I don't accept this. Indeed, this is a classic narrative of the West to see all cultures as unproblematic and as having merit.

Culture is a power imposition. This is most obvious where the culture has something unpleasant to your eyes (e.g. immolation of widow on husband's death(*)). The rules, norms and regimes that make up a culture are a product of fierce power-plays. It is not some unproblematic way of life that can be observed in history and art museums.

My position is that the Western cultural sexuality regime, which is part of the 'cultural package' of the West, is awful.

(*) the british governor of a province of India on being told that this was part of Indian culture responded that in British culture if this happened the British way is to build a big wooden platform and hang the person who immolates the widow.

(By the way, Ranciere is a French philospher whose work on dissensus is extremely apt for the current red and yellow conflict in Bangkok. His theoretical readings of conflict and how it brings about change provide a conceptual framework for understanding the 'game'. See his superb book: Disagreement: Politics and Philosophy (1998))

Again, culture isn't right or wrong. You twisted my words. If something isn't right or wrong, that doesn't imply judgment or merit. It is just the way it is. Of course culture can be oppressive for people living in it. If you think Thailand's culture doesn't have oppressive aspects for Thais, you are some kind of deluded (and very naive) romantic.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Jingthing

[somtampet]

This is total BS. Imagine early Martin. He goes on stage. After the show he invites his boyfriend on stage and gives him a deep kiss. If you believe that wouldn't have seriously hurt his career in his early stages, you are dreaming. He was positioned as a male sex symbol mostly for females. You say he could have been gay. Being gay often means OPENLY showing sexual feelings towards other males. He could NOT have gotten away with that.

Tou contribute many things to this forum Jing but you are talking bs.

If he is gay why should he bring his bf on stage and DEEP kiss him,why not a cuddle.You always seem to bring the sexual side into any gay conversations.One of the greatest groups of all time,Queen,Freddie Mercury was openly gay but that didnt affect his massive stardom.George Michael,to me,did a disgusting act in public and her is still a superstar.

[PeaceBlondie]

So macho men don't kiss their girlfriends in public and in movies? Did a young Brando not penetrate that naked woman in Last Tango in Paris?

[Jingthing]

So you are saying he could be gay, but not really show it. Proves my point. Of course some stars don't have a problem with being very out, but a sex symbol mostly for the ladies like Ricky Martin (and Beiber is a budding new example) would have been suicidal to openly come out early in his career. Very naive to think things have changed that much. It is the same with Hollywood actors.

[Gaccha]

East is east, and west is west, and they do meet at the N' Touch bar, San Francisco. Martin ain't Thai. Thai culture is valid and so is western culture. It isn't a matter of right and wrong.

No, I don't accept this. Indeed, this is a classic narrative of the West to see all cultures as unproblematic and as having merit.

Culture is a power imposition. This is most obvious where the culture has something unpleasant to your eyes (e.g. immolation of widow on husband's death(*)). The rules, norms and regimes that make up a culture are a product of fierce power-plays. It is not some unproblematic way of life that can be observed in history and art museums.

My position is that the Western cultural sexuality regime, which is part of the 'cultural package' of the West, is awful.

(*) the british governor of a province of India on being told that this was part of Indian culture responded that in British culture if this happened the British way is to build a big wooden platform and hang the person who immolates the widow.

Again, culture isn't right or wrong. You twisted my words. If something isn't right or wrong, that doesn't imply judgment or merit. It is just the way it is. Of course culture can be oppressive for people living in it. If you think Thailand's culture doesn't have oppressive aspects for Thais, you are some kind of deluded (and very naive) romantic.

Fascinating. Doing a double-read of your post invites so many possibilities but let's just stick to the surface argument. I will take you at your word.

1. the way things are is 'culture'

2. this is 'valid'

3. this is not a judgment on culture

It all hinges on what you mean by 'valid'. Legally valid. No, of course not. That again would be a tortuous power-loop argument (to have legal validity simply depends on who has grabbed power). Morally valid. I suspect that is what you meant. And that means making a judgment on its merit.

The reason I am pushing this is because it is so important to displace this narrative of the unproblematic nature of cultures, and that 'truth is relative' and that we can 'all live together in peace and harmony'.

The intellectual gymnastics required to hold your position tellingly display the awkward positioning of the West's sexuality regime.

So, what do I think of Thailand's sexuality regime? Well, it is magnificently complicated. To be exact it is 289 pages of complications. Please see Jackson's superb "Genders and Sexualities in Modern Thailand". And I know this, had their regime dominated where Ricky lives he would not need to 'out' himself.

It is the very nature of Western cultural positioning to romanticise other cultures, so my cautious and nuanced display against this very position can hardly render me a romantic, although I do like the odd Beethoven symphony.

[elshaheen]

what!!! he's gay. Who would have thought of that. Next thing you know, they will be saying Lady Gaga is a man in woman's clothes.

But, good for him.

Next concert, George Micheal and Ricky duet.