Fatal Accident

[NADTATIDA1]

Really? I've been fortunate and never had a run with the law. The only time I engaged a lawyer once was to try and get back money on a 'gone bad' condo deal (my own naive fault, classic newbie error back in the day...). The lawyer was pretty incompetent, even though a friend of a friend who had a friend who was a judge said it was a simple case for me to win. Anyway, it dragged on for six months, I got nothing, and the lawyer - after who knows how many consultations, phone calls and letter writing, only asked me for 1000 baht for his trouble (and wasting my time).

Doesn't seem to fit the profile you give above, but then I've only met one (admittedly useless!) lawyer, not 'most' as you have.

You are confusing facts between a civil and a criminal case.

Being in a dispute over a condo doesn`t involve having a jail sentence hanging over you.

This is Thailand and we are foreigners living here.

For us living in Thailand, it`s not, as in Rome do what the Romans do or if it`s OK for him, than it`s OK for me.

The simple fact is, get onto the wrong side of the law and you're owned. Since living here I am always aware of this and extremely cautious whatever I do and wherever I go. Never do anything that leaves you vulnerable to the so-called legal system and when driving, drive safely, legally and be on alert.

Too late now for the OP, but this experience may serve as a warning to others and of course most importantly help reduce the amount of carnage on the roads.

I believe I am speaking common sense here and for those who blow this out as a bunch of crap, should keep in mind, you could be next.

Yep agree with most of what you say there.

Just to say that i have never met a good lawyer in Thailand,there is no clear path with them and money is the be all and end all,anybody had any good experiences??

I doubt it!

[geriatrickid]

If the court action is related to a civil matter, then the insurer has the duty to defend, If it is criminal, then it is the defendant's responsibility. The best place to start is with the insurer. The discussion should be held and a request for a recommended auto injuries lawyer should be made. An understanding / agreement should be arranged as to how defense costs will be allocated between indemnifiable and unindemnifiable portions of the case. If there are additional civil penalties assessed, then the insurer has to pay those and as such it has to be advised of the court case as it has a right and a duty to respond. If th defendant selects his own counsel, then there should be an agreement as to what portion of the defense costs will be paid and what the agreed upon rates will be.

[dobadoy]

Really? I've been fortunate and never had a run with the law. The only time I engaged a lawyer once was to try and get back money on a 'gone bad' condo deal (my own naive fault, classic newbie error back in the day...). The lawyer was pretty incompetent, even though a friend of a friend who had a friend who was a judge said it was a simple case for me to win. Anyway, it dragged on for six months, I got nothing, and the lawyer - after who knows how many consultations, phone calls and letter writing, only asked me for 1000 baht for his trouble (and wasting my time).

Doesn't seem to fit the profile you give above, but then I've only met one (admittedly useless!) lawyer, not 'most' as you have.

You are confusing facts between a civil and a criminal case.

Being in a dispute over a condo doesn`t involve having a jail sentence hanging over you.

This is Thailand and we are foreigners living here.

For us living in Thailand, it`s not, as in Rome do what the Romans do or if it`s OK for him, than it`s OK for me.

The simple fact is, get onto the wrong side of the law and you're owned. Since living here I am always aware of this and extremely cautious whatever I do and wherever I go. Never do anything that leaves you vulnerable to the so-called legal system and when driving, drive safely, legally and be on alert.

Too late now for the OP, but this experience may serve as a warning to others and of course most importantly help reduce the amount of carnage on the roads.

I believe I am speaking common sense here and for those who blow this out as a bunch of crap, should keep in mind, you could be next.

Your advice about behaviour is sound bigwheelman, and like I said I've been lucky enough not to get involved witht the law. No confusion o my part - I wasn't comparing my case with the OPs, but contrasting my experience of a lawyer with your generalisation about the whole profession.

I don't have the knowledge or experience to know if 'most' Thai lawyers are charlatans but I wonde how they could survive as a profession if that were true. I wonder what leads you to so confidently dam_n them all in general, based on how many actual encounters?

[thaihome]

You might even face Jail time in your home country.

Why pray tell ?..

I doubt he would face problems in his home country. But, if the accident happened there, it would be much worse than here. Jail for sure and a lot more money changing hands...just not into the police's hands!

In most states in the US he would be guilty of vehicular manslaughter and would likely face jail time, though probably much shorter then other homicides.

TH

[harrybua]

My Brother-in law killed a motorcyclist and went to court - he was ordered to pay 50,000 baht to the deceased's family. It was my relative's fault.

Why did you pay 300,000 baht?

This maybe because in Thailand, the police can arrest someone and hold them in jail until the case goes to court.

Usually the arrested person is given the chance to pay an under the counter fee to the police so as to keep them out of jail until the court case.

I know of cases where people have been held in police custody, arrested but not charged, for over 3 years awaiting the court appearance.

My daughter travels to work every day on her motorbike and so called drivers like the OP are a continued worry to me.

Sorry to have to say this, but if it was any of my family or people close to me that was a victim of a fatal accident or seriously injuried by a negligent driver, then I would want the book thrown at that driver.

My thoughts are with the tragic victim, not the OP.

Hey big wheel man

So called driver iam so your the expert

If you are so concerned with your daughters safety buy her a car you will beable to afford it if your bank balance is a big as your MOUTH.

You better pray you are never put through an unlucky accident MR PERFECT.

Thanks to all the other helpful replies you have been great good luck to you all and will post the outcome

Cheers

[Soutpeel]

Just to say that i have never met a good lawyer in Thailand,there is no clear path with them and money is the be all and end all,anybody had any good experiences??

I doubt it!

There are some very good lawyers with firms in BKK, these are US$200/hr indivduals and very good, had occasion to have dealings with them and very impressed with their professionalism...

you get what you pay for......peanuts & monkeys come to mind..

[BigWheelMan]

My Brother-in law killed a motorcyclist and went to court - he was ordered to pay 50,000 baht to the deceased's family. It was my relative's fault.

Why did you pay 300,000 baht?

This maybe because in Thailand, the police can arrest someone and hold them in jail until the case goes to court.

Usually the arrested person is given the chance to pay an under the counter fee to the police so as to keep them out of jail until the court case.

I know of cases where people have been held in police custody, arrested but not charged, for over 3 years awaiting the court appearance.

My daughter travels to work every day on her motorbike and so called drivers like the OP are a continued worry to me.

Sorry to have to say this, but if it was any of my family or people close to me that was a victim of a fatal accident or seriously injuried by a negligent driver, then I would want the book thrown at that driver.

My thoughts are with the tragic victim, not the OP.

Hey big wheel man

So called driver iam so your the expert

If you are so concerned with your daughters safety buy her a car you will beable to afford it if your bank balance is a big as your MOUTH.

You better pray you are never put through an unlucky accident MR PERFECT.

Thanks to all the other helpful replies you have been great good luck to you all and will post the outcome

Cheers

Seems you have an anger, problem. Does this reflect your driving on the road?

My condolences to the tragic victim and his family.

[harrybua]

My Brother-in law killed a motorcyclist and went to court - he was ordered to pay 50,000 baht to the deceased's family. It was my relative's fault.

Why did you pay 300,000 baht?

This maybe because in Thailand, the police can arrest someone and hold them in jail until the case goes to court.

Usually the arrested person is given the chance to pay an under the counter fee to the police so as to keep them out of jail until the court case.

I know of cases where people have been held in police custody, arrested but not charged, for over 3 years awaiting the court appearance.

My daughter travels to work every day on her motorbike and so called drivers like the OP are a continued worry to me.

Sorry to have to say this, but if it was any of my family or people close to me that was a victim of a fatal accident or seriously injuried by a negligent driver, then I would want the book thrown at that driver.

My thoughts are with the tragic victim, not the OP.

Hey big wheel man

So called driver iam so your the expert

If you are so concerned with your daughters safety buy her a car you will beable to afford it if your bank balance is a big as your MOUTH.

You better pray you are never put through an unlucky accident MR PERFECT.

Thanks to all the other helpful replies you have been great good luck to you all and will post the outcome

Cheers

Seems you have an anger, problem. Does this reflect your driving on the road?

My condolences to the tragic victim and his family.

no anger issues

just dont understand how you can be so perfect and judgmental

as i said pray you do not experience an accident and take a life

i will never forget

[TheItaliann]

This is my biggest fear in Thailand. Fatal car accident + jail. Can you please give more details on where the motorcycle was when you hit him? he was also making a U-turn with you or driving on the road you were u-turning into? I don't think its fair to take shots at OP without knowing all details to the case. Driving in Thailand is very crazy.

Edited March 31, 2010 by TheItaliann

[BigWheelMan]

no anger issues

just dont understand how you can be so perfect and judgmental

as i said pray you do not experience an accident and take a life

i will never forget

I apologise if I seem to come over as arrogant and Judgmental. Have stated some facts so that others may take warning, plus last year one of my good friend’s son was killed on his motorbike by a truck, which was heartbreaking.

Since you mentioned that you have taken a life and will never forget, my sympathy level for you has increased from zero to 8 out of 10 and 10 out of 10 for the deceased and his family. There must be terrible suffering to all involved.

A few years ago someone put me in the crap with the police and it took 4 years to clear the matter. So I do have experience of dealing with these legal criminals.

Have the police held your passport and have they frozen any funds you have here?

If not and feel that you may not receive true justice through the system, you could consider taking a long vacation outside of Thailand and employing a third party, such as a lawyer or someone with legal experience to deal with the authorities for you.

This is another option, worth thinking about.

Edited March 31, 2010 by BigWheelMan

[elkangorito]

It saddens me to hear such a story.

Nonetheless & if Thailand does develop to be a true democracy, the police will be commensurately paid (as all other 'legal' officials) & as such, corruption should be at a minimum. In this case & if one has truly been at fault, one would no doubt suffer the consequences of the law (without corruption). This means that there would not be any way in which one could 'buy one's way out' of such a situation.

The current situation is different. Corruption is rife & if one is not aware of what is required to obtain the 'get out of gaol NOT for free' card, then one needs to consult 'others'. 'Others' include legal council.

Whether you are in the 'right' or in the 'wrong', please do not seek revenge.

[BigWheelMan]

In answer to one of the OPs original questions:

The final decision whether or not a criminal case goes to court or not is decided by the prosecutor, not the police. Beware that he/she may ask for a large under counter payment to give a favourable report, but this by no means guarantees the case will not go to court or receive a better verdict from the 3 judges at the court.

[AlBundy]

Do you still have your passport?

I suggest getting on an airplane 6 months ago!

And never come back to the land of give me more $$$.

[john_bkk919]

There are some very good lawyers with firms in BKK, these are US$200/hr indivduals and very good, had occasion to have dealings with them and very impressed with their professionalism...

you get what you pay for......peanuts & monkeys come to mind..

Definitely. T&G is one firm that comes to mind. Google 'tilleke'. Not sure it was 200 USD an hour but it was far from the cheapest until you consider a shyster local lawyer will take your 20-50k baht and do absolutely nothing. At that point paying 100k baht and getting results seems like a bargain.

Lawyer up early in stuff like this. Wanna debate with your ins. co. about who pays for various expenses? Do it as a side issue. Get yourself reputable legal counsel immediately. They can help a lot in the early stages, so don't do like some threads on here and end up in jail awaiting trial before you start flailing around for a lawyer.

Support for the OP 10/10.

Edited March 31, 2010 by john_bkk919

[eggomaniac]

This is my biggest fear in Thailand. Fatal car accident + jail. Can you please give more details on where the motorcycle was when you hit him? he was also making a U-turn with you or driving on the road you were u-turning into? I don't think its fair to take shots at OP without knowing all details to the case. Driving in Thailand is very crazy.

The OP already said the accident was his fault. He performed a U Turn and missed seeing the biker. Whether the biker was going this way, that way, or also U turning, won't change anything.

One 'speculation' that could change things is whether the biker was wearing a helmet or not.

As the majority of bikers in Thailand don't wear any helmets, or helmets that are not much better than a hat, I would guess the majority of fatalities are from head injuries.

In the West a biker not wearing a helmet, killed by head injuries, would lessen the charges even if the driver caused the accident.

When I have made my mistakes driving, luckily, sometimes by inches or split seconds, no accidents have occured, let alone deaths.

The OP has been given something to live with for doing something we all do, he made a mistake.

If, the biker would still be alive, having worn a D.O.T. approved helmet, that would lessen, but not erase, the guilt I would feel.

[Soutpeel]

and have they frozen any funds you have here?

Not trying to make light of this situation, but why would the BiB freeze the OP funds ?

This is not Taksin we are talking about, this is a MVA.

Think about your logic in this.....BiB et al, may be looking for "little brown envelopes", freezing OP funds would not give them access to said funds so kinda self defeating..

[TheItaliann]

no i am curious how the accident happened as i often have the issue of motorbikes while driving. i dont see how OP telling us what happened so we can look out for it will hurt him or us.

[tonywebster]

no i am curious how the accident happened as i often have the issue of motorbikes while driving. i dont see how OP telling us what happened so we can look out for it will hurt him or us.

he tell us in another post, not in the OP, he was doing a u turn and didn't see the bike. those of us that have driven here for some time know full well that for any manoeuvre you perform the chances are that some clueless bellend on a bike will ignore your signals and ignore the fact that you are about to turn and continue to barrel past you in the hope that you see them performing their illegal manoeuvre.

[TheItaliann]

what i am wondering is, was the motorbike also making the u-turn? Cause this is something that i have trouble with. They will come flying towards the direction you are turning into and if you are looking in the other direction and traffic, its possible to hit them... another common problem i have in bangkok is that pedestrian crossings are often too close to u-turns and the same problem exists: hitting pedestrians because you are looking in the other direction.

i try to just constantly look back and forth when driving in bangkok.

Edited April 1, 2010 by TheItaliann

[Tigs]

I am no expert in any of this but my understanding is that causing a death on the roads is a 50 000 baht fine, and that should be it. Get a lawyer anyway, as he/she can tell the court everything you have done for the family so far. 600K is a very high amount that has been paid so far between you and the insurance company. Your lawyer can get written statements from the family showing their feelings that they are content with the reparations you have made. I would budget 20-25K for a lawyer/

You are also another casualty in this tragic occurrence. Accidents happen, and as we are all aware most motor bikers in general in this country drive without any consideration for safety, and very few 'look ahead'. You have personally paid more than 6 times the going rate as set by the courts. A rather ugly fact out here is that if you injure someone say paralyse them then you will face hefty medical bills for them for the rest of their lives, which could run in to millions of baht. For that reason it is not uncommon for a car to have reversed back over a casualty in the road to make sure they are dead!! Horrible I know, in fact it is murder, but then only a 50 000 baht fine must be paid.

You may have made an error, but consider that the other person had some responsibility as well in driving with care and attention. Best of luck with your situation, you have done as much as anyone can do to show your remorse.

[Latindancer]

One 'speculation' that could change things is whether the biker was wearing a helmet or not.

As the majority of bikers in Thailand don't wear any helmets, or helmets that are not much better than a hat, I would guess the majority of fatalities are from head injuries.

In the West a biker not wearing a helmet, killed by head injuries, would lessen the charges even if the driver caused the accident.

A very good point. The OP's barrister should raise this in court, possibly in a very oblique way. As an aside.

The law in Thailand states that helmets should be worn at all times.

[Soutpeel]

Oh Chr*st......Rumpole of the Baily is out...

[bankha]

Harry,

I got your Pm, Most of what is said on this topic is rubbish. There is no need to run or leave Thailand. Get a English Translator with you when go to court, I took my wife and they accepted that. As long as you have paid the family and have them sign paperwork stating that they are ok with it at the police station then once it goes to court you will be fine. I did not even have a lawyer but my wifes family knew a judge in the courthouse. But i was still put in shackles and in cell all day. You will need photocopies of your passport.

Dont worry you will be fine.

Paul

[TheItaliann]

fine like the guy doing a year cause his parked car was hit?

face it, the thai legal system is never open and shut.

[Tigs]

fine like the guy doing a year cause his parked car was hit?

face it, the thai legal system is never open and shut.

Where are the details of that case? I don't believe it.

[anon345535]

i assume it's this one

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Good-Lawyer-...ok-t317911.html

regarding the OP... best of luck mister

[Tigs]

i assume it's this one

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Good-Lawyer-...ok-t317911.html

regarding the OP... best of luck mister

Yes, I have read the thread and I still do not believe it. Nothing in any newspaper or media source. Only what the OP has said.

[F1fanatic]

no i am curious how the accident happened as i often have the issue of motorbikes while driving. i dont see how OP telling us what happened so we can look out for it will hurt him or us.

he tell us in another post, not in the OP, he was doing a u turn and didn't see the bike. those of us that have driven here for some time know full well that for any manoeuvre you perform the chances are that some clueless bellend on a bike will ignore your signals and ignore the fact that you are about to turn and continue to barrel past you in the hope that you see them performing their illegal manoeuvre.

As a motorcyclist I have to point out that most people in a car will just pull into the left hand lane when something gets in their way, without caring about the motorcyclist already in that lane. They just expect them to get out of their way.

Yes, there are lots of motorcyclists out there that nip in and out, assuming they will be OK. Generally they are (when its a Thai on the bike - they grew up on them). You see Westerners doing the same thing..... Again, mostly they will be OK - but they don't have the skills the Thai's have learned and sometimes they don't get away with it......

[mythBuster]

Personally I had to avoid a motorcycle lying on the road with two girls that were thrown off. I wrecked my car by trying to avoid the carnage and I hit a tree. No problem because there were witnesses that saw that an army Hummer had hit the girls. It was in front of a petrol station so the boys and girls working there witnessed it. After ten days the police came to see me and arrested me. They had made up their mind and although my car was wrecked ten meters before the motorcycle was laying on the road they pointed to me as the person who caused the accident.

If you are lucky you do not go to jail, try to make a deal with the family of the motorcyclist. On average prices range from 20,000 to 200,000 for an accident. Unless you hit a very expensive person (police friend, bureaucrat). If you settle you get a fine of up to 15,000 baht which is for Thai people a small fortune.

If you do not settle you end up behind bars for 1,5 to 2 years. As you might know by now you have to report to the court every 12 days or so. If you get sentenced make sure you have a good understanding with the prosecutor and judge. If not you will be taken to immigration and you will be declared persona non grata because you have a criminal record. In my case I had no trouble although they first wanted me locked up till the fine was paid. Money is mostly paid in the court room to the family. Make sure that you get written statements.

[GungaDin]

Harry (D) check your PMs.