Some Attitudes Towards Red Shirts Shameful

[animatic]

So saying 'uneducated' or 'under educated' is dehumanizing?

Pretty low threshold for removing humans from their genetic make up.

Who doesn't agree that education, including even handed and balanced

political system theory education, needs to be done in N NE?

Even the most anti-red here agrees to that.

More dislike can be heaped on those that have so long controlled the flow of information

to these N. NE. people, they come by their political immaturity honestly, their world is

controlled, and alternating opinions stifled to a minimum, no wonder theirs is a monochrome view.

Some have said Thaksin's worst enemy is a reasonably educated and bi-lingual Thai woman

returned from the south and able to talk to the other women in her village and tell them

what she has learned, when information about choices is NOT denied to her...

I see that occasionally someone calls red rank and file monkeys and buffalo,

and that certainly fits the dehumanizing category, but that is quite cringe worthy for

most all of us and is a very small minority of commentors. It tends to show that

name callers personal diminishment. It's not right, and it's not true,

but there will always be prejudiced people in the world.

Some are just that way, and we can hope to change them by example.

Are the Red Shirts as a mass movement 'politically mature'?

If using their public pronouncements as a benchmark it's hard to say yes.

Not to mention their base is a hodgepodge of disparate and often contradictory fringe movements,

all cobbled together as an opposition, but lacking the coherence of an actual movement,

no matter the rebranding attempts at play.

The blood incidents, not just one but several, with their Brahmin / mystical underpinnings

are anything but politically mature, they made for some cringing people world wide,

and did not deliver the knock out punch as advertised. Politically mature, not hardly.

Will it play well back home in Isasan, maybe in some quarters, but likely not in others.

Another in a long series of Red missteps. Red leadership seems to be bouncing towards

what ever idea is thrown out because of a paucity of good ones.

With Jatuporn and Arisman as leaders they shoot their own foot, repeatedly.

These two can not by any stretch or spin be seen as politically mature players.

All countries have their fringe political players who often get their 15 minutes of fame,

and fade away, if these two were not funded by Thaksin and causing huge social disturbances,

they would be relegated to page 3 or back, news pretty much all the time.

What derision we hand to the Red Leaders; well they have chosen to make themselves public targets,

they should grow the think face and live with it. Their stage pronouncements are not those of

nice people just making a few suggestions for social change, they have created a hate group to back their agenda.

They can and should live with the opprobrium ladled onto them.

Cue MY

to tell me I am biased for not beating another group to seem even handed

or any of several other usual suspect sto say I am unclear or just wrong, or bought by the elite

or LOL Abhisit's Fanboy... etc etc. So many attacks so little time...

Tough, some read my posts and get the ideas, others want to stop the ideas from getting out.

Tactics and strategy to build and maintain a view of the world as some would wish it to be seen.

Certainly not all are actively doing this, but some are and some others believe and repeat.

One thing is always so, 'trying top find a middle path' always gets those on the far edges to scream

'you are on the OTHER far edge', because you are not on their far edge.

Not a sign of political maturity either.

Edited April 1, 2010 by animatic

[MellowYellow]

animatic, perhaps you should take a look at just your's and jdinasia's over the last 2 weeks or so.

Do you think it would be a reasonable assertion that one could find multiple instances of objectifying, dehumanizing, insulting, and belittling references to the red shirt protesters?

[bendejo]

No reason to be so insulting to livestock.

[MellowYellow]

On a completely nonpolitical note: Animatic, what is the reason/history behind your posts always looking unique from an appearance perspective. I'm not talking about the content, but the actual form, as in number of sentences/number of words per line, paragraph breaks, etc.

[anotherpeter]

I also don't get involved in debates about whether or not the sun is hot or cold. I also don't get into debates about whether or not water and food are necesary to sustain human life. I also don't get into debates with creationists, Jehovah's Witnessses, Radical Muslims, Jews or Christians. You draw whatever conclusions you choose to from that.

Given as you are fixating on trying to debate away recorded historical fact, I guess you really don't give a flying sh*t about the poor or dehumanizing them.

Given that you answered my question earlier with something irrelevant (yellow violence elsewhere), you showed that you DID want to debate it, but you just can't directly answer the question.

Because the only answer is that there was NO violence in the coup or the airport takeover.

So, now that is answered, I will move on the rest of the article.

"Editor of Post Today, Nakarn Laohavilai, wrote in his March 26 column that the protest "reflects [the fact that] many people have yet to attain maturity when it comes to a real democratic system"."

-- This applies to most Thais (and quite a few TV posters), not just the protestors.

"Nakarn patronisingly wrote that the red shirts were coming to the capital because "they have been fooled or bought", "

-- I believe this is true. Thaksin bought them with his cash handouts. They have been fooled into believing that Thaksin was doing them some long term good, when he was actually after their short term support so that he could rob the country and cement his power.

"This analogy was also employed by INN news service when its SMS news yesterday stated that the red shirts were being "herded" to rally again on Saturday."

-- This could be correct. I think that some are succumbing to peer group pressure and don't really want to be there.

"The mainstream media is quick to characterise the red-shirt protesters as being violence prone, though funnily enough it said very little about the violence generated by the 2006 coup that ousted Thaksin or the shutting down of the Suvarnabhumi Airport in 2008."

-- The red shirts have been shown to be violent with their efforts during the yellow shirt protests, and during the Pattaya summit and Songkran. Also, the rhetoric before these protests didn't do them any favours. Sure, these protests have been peaceful. That's fantastic. And that has been a big plus for them this time. But they had to publicly distance themselves from some of their leaders advocating a more violent push. And then there is the discussion about violence during the coup and the airport takeover.

So, although I support the poor in their efforts to get a better deal for themselves, I don't beleive it should ALL come from this government (which is doing something for them). Most of the problems of the poor is their lack of education, which is being improved.

But most importantly, it is because of the rich 'elite' in their local areas that have been exploiting the farmers for far too long.

Thaksin didn't do anything about this. He supported it.

edit: Although there has been some 'dehumanizing', most of the references in this article are basically correct.

Edited April 1, 2010 by anotherpeter

[phupaman]

Hi All.

Today April 1st is the day Arisman, red shirt leader and thug said he would surrender to Police to answer charges

the question is ......Will He?. If the answer is No, Will the Police make any effort to arrest him??.

I dont believe Arisman and have no faith at all in the Thai Police.

phupaman.

[phupaman]

Hi All.

Today April 1st is the day Arisman, red shirt leader and thug said he would surrender to Police to answer charges

the question is ......Will He?. If the answer is No, Will the Police make any effort to arrest him??.

I dont believe Arisman and have no faith at all in the Thai Police.

phupaman.

[phupaman]

Hi All.

Today April 1st is the day Arisman, red shirt leader and thug said he would surrender to Police to answer charges

the question is ......Will He?. If the answer is No, Will the Police make any effort to arrest him??.

I dont believe Arisman and have no faith at all in the Thai Police.

phupaman.

[geriatrickid]

Once again, those that disagree with any article that suggests that the "reds" are humans deserving of dignity will attempt to hijack the thread and turn it off on a senseless tangent. The article that might be an attempt at responding to reader criticisms of its alleged biased reporting is hardly proposing anything radical. Of course to some people in TV, the thought that these people may be entitled to basic human rights and respect is frightening.

When the airport control tower was seized this entailed kicking in several doors, and physically forcing the ATC staff out of the tower, despite the public statements at the time that stated the staff were asked to leave. The seizue of the tower endangered the lives and safety of the people on the aircraft that relied on BKK ATC.

Come on now, let's wait for the dismissal, the claims of red propaganda that I invented this.

For the benefit of those with convenient memories, the allegations of violence were in the warrants that were issued by the government. Which government you say? Why Mr. Abhisit's that issued the 21 warrants against PAD. I also sense hypocrisy here, because any mention of PAD related physical assaults arising from the illegal seizure of the airport is met with but the reds started it or the reds did worse wahhhhhhhhh.

BTW, anyone care to respond to the allegations of looting of the cargo that took place once the security had been run off? (I am not saying PAD did that, but it wqs a consequence of the seizure.)

[phupaman]

Hi

Sorry triple post

Phupaman

[animatic]

animatic, perhaps you should take a look at just your's and jdinasia's over the last 2 weeks or so.

Do you think it would be a reasonable assertion that one could find multiple instances of objectifying, dehumanizing, insulting, and belittling references to the red shirt protesters?

Aimed at leadership,

or the fact they rank and file don't seem to see they're been conned by team Thaksin.

Nice try, but that dog don't hunt.

[Thai at Heart]

I think the relevant editors should be sent up country for some "good ole farm laborin'" so they can reconnect with their roots. I presume that editors like these people like to think they are educated people. Oh how far from the truth their opinions appear to be.

It seems one generation of office work, a little cash and a word processor can bring out the worst in people.

[MellowYellow]

animatic, perhaps you should take a look at just your's and jdinasia's over the last 2 weeks or so.

Do you think it would be a reasonable assertion that one could find multiple instances of objectifying, dehumanizing, insulting, and belittling references to the red shirt protesters?

Aimed at leadership,

or the fact they rank and file don't seem to see they're been conned by team Thaksin.

Nice try, but that dog don't hunt.

Even accepting your qualifying, so you are saying we WON'T find such comments from you or jdinasia?

[momentumwaves]

Yesterday's article running down Dr. Weng of the Red Shirts, was the most shameful piece of drivel I have ever seen, in a newspaper.

The article personally attacked & maligned this brilliant gentleman. This showed The Nation to be nothing other than a government political propaganda mouthpiece.

Disgusting level The Nation has stooped to.

[rixalex]

Awesome!

MellowYellow, there once was a chap named Rumfoord who said that a lot. I think you two would have got on well. Alas...

[whiterussian]

This guy has been reading and posting on TV hasn't he. I'm sure I've seen most of those comments before.

This one was my favorite though.

The mainstream media is quick to characterise the red-shirt protesters as being violence prone, though funnily enough it said very little about the violence generated by the 2006 coup that ousted Thaksin or the shutting down of the Suvarnabhumi Airport in 2008.

I don't remember ANY violence during the coup or the airport takover.

There was that guy nearly killed (shot) by a yellow press gang and dumped in a canal... becuase he wanted to leave the airport seige.

Also that guy that issued a price on Thaksin's head - wasn't he the guy that later got ambushed by sub machine guns in his car?

"Better quality people" - hahaha - thems the breaks...

Edited April 1, 2010 by whiterussian

[hammered]

Well the government seems to have listened to some red demands by instituting the biggest debt moratorium the country has ever seen for rural farmers. So I guess nobody will include them in all the denigrating the poor stuff.

I await the praise from the red side for the concession they have won from the government as this is all about the poor and not about Thaksin so I fully expect the red leadership to welcome this start from the government.

I wonder if any newspaper of any persuasion will point this all out. It is how demcoracy works. People make demands and governments accept them either willingly or by recognizing the eecltoral necessity but not so willingly.

[Insight]

Awesome!

MellowYellow, there once was a chap named Rumfoord who said that a lot. I think you two would have got on well. Alas...

How did I miss that!?!

[scorecard]

They should have tried 'being nice' first and not last, if they wanted respect. Blood throwing? Yeah please come back. We'll have the red carpet waiting for you.

Let's see:

- Is his translation to English accurate or is his tranlation deliberately generating words / phrases that deliberately aim to inflame?

- There are many many Thais from all walks of life who would agree that things are way out of balance and there are very good reasons why Thailand (any country) should work towards a better sharing of the wealth etc., a more civil society where all Thais regardless of their location, background, job, current education level or whatever have have better education, more opportunity, and equal justice.

- And there will always be a small percentage of people, in any country, who think they are superior, more important etc. Not nice (IMHO) but reality.

- However, like it or not the red shirts are not a democrcay movement, their leaders are not much more than a gang of nasty opportunists (most of them have well known/well documented dubious past history) who make all sorts of claims about double standards, class wars, champions of democracy, etc etc., but the bottom line has always been and continues to be that all of this is a manufactured/structured smokescreen (and not a very good one) over their aims to get a convicted highly corrupt man pardoned, and to return Thailand to a constitution where thaksin and his selfish corrupt ruthless incapable ilk can get back to raping the country unhindered. And along the way they have no hesitation to use (repeat use) lots of naive people.

And many news organizations are in fact targeting all of the points above, often not very well, and often leaving an unclear message which looks like 'the reds are bad.'

Let me disgress just a little. There are many footpath food vendors in my soi here in Bangkok, they were all, in the beginning, full on red shirt folks. Two evenings ago my adult Thai son was sitting with some friends eating. Some discussion started with the female food vendor who said again (she's said it many times before) that she went to many rallies before and especially the last few, only for the money (2,000Baht a day last week), she continued that she had no real idea of what the protest was all about, and then concluded by saying that she and many others are tired of the whole thing, she said that many didn't get paid, some had to pay hefty taxi fares to get home, the 'presentations' at the rallies were extremely repetitious and boring, and there was never real discussion about the future, the food was rubbish, and she mentioned she was tired of all the spoken hate.

- I wonder what the final bottom line benefits are for the red shirt leaders?

Edited April 1, 2010 by scorecard

[Thai at Heart]

Well the government seems to have listened to some red demands by instituting the biggest debt moratorium the country has ever seen for rural farmers. So I guess nobody will include them in all the denigrating the poor stuff.

I await the praise from the red side for the concession they have won from the government as this is all about the poor and not about Thaksin so I fully expect the red leadership to welcome this start from the government.

I wonder if any newspaper of any persuasion will point this all out. It is how demcoracy works. People make demands and governments accept them either willingly or by recognizing the eecltoral necessity but not so willingly.

Hey I am all for it.

I am just waiting for at least the English newspapers and ASTV to announce their editorial opinions on this policy. They are obviously hoping that no one noticed the announcement. Has there been ANYTHING in the Thai newspapers about it? So far there is a bit in the Bangkok Post, the Nation nothing.

It will be interesting to see what some of the papers make of such obviously "Populist" policies. Can they bring themselves to stand behind the establishment man (Abhisit) when he propogates such policies that appear to run counter to the editorial line of the paper.

[tonywebster]

Cue the bias-edited video of one truck defending itself from an attack by Red Taxi drivers,

but only showing the PAD guards shooting and holding one guy and stomping on bikes,

but NOT showing the part where the group attacks them...

And not putting in context the nightly attacks by grenades, leading to deaths,

for the several days prior to that, where they would be made to feel

any reds advancing on them in a group intent extreme violence.

Coup week, flowers handed to soldiers, no violence shown anywhere.

PAD violence mostly instigated by Red agitators.

Or by the inevitable siege mentality regular Red Attacks on PAD caused.

PAD were not acting thoughtful or properly taking the airport, it was wityhout doubt wrong,

but after a week of deaths in their camp, caused by outside forces, that they acted,

moved and didn't slink home is understandable, if not forgivable.

Regardless it must be viewed in context and not as individual incidents.

keep spouting this nonsense and eventually you will actually believe it.

The truck 'defending' themselves was a group of yellow shirts that had just attacked a taxi radio station, the taxi drivers fought back and were shot at, whatever were those peace loving yellows doing wandering the streets with fire arms? This came after the storming of TV stations, the trespass of a government building, the takeover of the cities international airports and the holding of a city to hostage.

The nightly attacks by grenades? well that will account for all the unexploded ordnance found at GH when the trespassers finally left. Amazing that all those bombs were thrown into GH and never exploded and managed to land in a nice hiding place, or hey, here is an idea, maybe all those explosives were the property of the PAD themselves. Maybe they were attacked, maybe they attacked themselves, The jury is still out on this one in the absence of any evidence or convictions to prove either party was responsible. Answer me this though, just how did someone get close enough to GH to throw these supposed bombs when the PAD ARMED security was everywhere dishing out arbitrary beatings for minor things, yet they managed to let someone sneak through and throw bombs). I am beginning to think you should write a comedy series because you have me laughing my head of at the vitriol and twisting of the facts.

The PAD violence was instigated by red agitators, wait, let me find the right smiley for that one, here it is

such utter nonsense, from the start the PAD were a violent group, employing armed guards that dished out regular beatings, even to one poor soul in front of the press at the airport who was only trying to leave the protest and head home, not to mention the body found at don meaung I believe it was, not to mention the guy given a beating behind the blue tarpaulin who made the mistake of walking through, or the guy shot to death near the police headquarters, or the police man run over, or the policeman stabbed at parliament, i could go on as there were many more instances of violence instigated by the PAD.

The PAD did more damage to this country with their fiasco at the airport, that was an absolute disgrace, firstly because they did it, and secondly because they were not moved, by force if necessary. There was small insistences of violence at the airport as I have already mentioned, there was no mass instances simply because there was no attempt to remove them, if anyone doubts this I will highlight to them the violence at parliament when the police tried to move them, the policeman stabbed, the policeman run over by the pick up (available on youtube), the policeman drawing his pistol as a pickup drove at high speed towards him etc etc etc.

some of you guys would get more respect by just being honest rather than trying to say things that the majority of us already know is absolute <deleted>.

Both sides have been as bad as each other, it is not a competition to find out which side was most violent, BOTH sides have been guilty of random acts of violence, BOTH sides have damaged the country, but to try and make out the yellows did not instigate violence is just pathetic.

[animatic]

Awesome!

MellowYellow, there once was a chap named Rumfoord who said that a lot. I think you two would have got on well. Alas...

Ditto... nothing mellow about RedRum

[animatic]

Cue the bias-edited video of one truck defending itself from an attack by Red Taxi drivers,

but only showing the PAD guards shooting and holding one guy and stomping on bikes,

but NOT showing the part where the group attacks them...

And not putting in context the nightly attacks by grenades, leading to deaths,

for the several days prior to that, where they would be made to feel

any reds advancing on them in a group intent extreme violence.

Coup week, flowers handed to soldiers, no violence shown anywhere.

PAD violence mostly instigated by Red agitators.

Or by the inevitable siege mentality regular Red Attacks on PAD caused.

PAD were not acting thoughtful or properly taking the airport, it was wityhout doubt wrong,

but after a week of deaths in their camp, caused by outside forces, that they acted,

moved and didn't slink home is understandable, if not forgivable.

Regardless it must be viewed in context and not as individual incidents.

keep spouting this nonsense and eventually you will actually believe it.

The truck 'defending' themselves was a group of yellow shirts that had just attacked a taxi radio station, the taxi drivers fought back and were shot at, whatever were those peace loving yellows doing wandering the streets with fire arms? This came after the storming of TV stations, the trespass of a government building, the takeover of the cities international airports and the holding of a city to hostage.

The nightly attacks by grenades? well that will account for all the unexploded ordnance found at GH when the trespassers finally left. Amazing that all those bombs were thrown into GH and never exploded and managed to land in a nice hiding place, or hey, here is an idea, maybe all those explosives were the property of the PAD themselves. Maybe they were attacked, maybe they attacked themselves, The jury is still out on this one in the absence of any evidence or convictions to prove either party was responsible. Answer me this though, just how did someone get close enough to GH to throw these supposed bombs when the PAD ARMED security was everywhere dishing out arbitrary beatings for minor things, yet they managed to let someone sneak through and throw bombs). I am beginning to think you should write a comedy series because you have me laughing my head of at the vitriol and twisting of the facts.

The PAD violence was instigated by red agitators, wait, let me find the right smiley for that one, here it is

such utter nonsense, from the start the PAD were a violent group, employing armed guards that dished out regular beatings, even to one poor soul in front of the press at the airport who was only trying to leave the protest and head home, not to mention the body found at don meaung I believe it was, not to mention the guy given a beating behind the blue tarpaulin who made the mistake of walking through, or the guy shot to death near the police headquarters, or the police man run over, or the policeman stabbed at parliament, i could go on as there were many more instances of violence instigated by the PAD.

The PAD did more damage to this country with their fiasco at the airport, that was an absolute disgrace, firstly because they did it, and secondly because they were not moved, by force if necessary. There was small insistences of violence at the airport as I have already mentioned, there was no mass instances simply because there was no attempt to remove them, if anyone doubts this I will highlight to them the violence at parliament when the police tried to move them, the policeman stabbed, the policeman run over by the pick up (available on youtube), the policeman drawing his pistol as a pickup drove at high speed towards him etc etc etc.

some of you guys would get more respect by just being honest rather than trying to say things that the majority of us already know is absolute <deleted>.

Both sides have been as bad as each other, it is not a competition to find out which side was most violent, BOTH sides have been guilty of random acts of violence, BOTH sides have damaged the country, but to try and make out the yellows did not instigate violence is just pathetic.

So many utter wrong things it's hard to begin.

Let's leave it at THIS INCIDENT WAS ON THE WAY TO THE AIRPORT, not after.

Nor was there an attack on the Taxi station before this...

Historical revision written more than a little lamely, give it up.

"keep spouting this nonsense and eventually you will actually believe it."

Well it seems you have already been convinced by the PR machine

to Thaksins spurious world view. So sad actually.

[kerm99]

Jeez!!!!!!!!

A coup is a violent evetn, even if there is no fighting. There were tank in the street. I don't care if no one was fighting, i would stay home.

An airport takover (or blockade, whatever you want to call it) is a violent event. Just ask my mother, who is 65 year old and was stuck here because of this.

Taking over government building is a violent event.

Spilling blood in the street is a violent event.

All these amount to terror in Thailand

All of you, stop waering shirt and see the reality for what it is

[TAWP]

An event without violence is not a violent event, it is just an event.

Even if the event is a crime in action.

[Chaimai]

I think that if we can manage to keep digging up the past, we might just ensure that there is no real future.

[kerm99]

When the intention behind the event is violent, i consider it to be violent

[MellowYellow]

Awesome!

MellowYellow, there once was a chap named Rumfoord who said that a lot. I think you two would have got on well. Alas...

Awesome! At least your crowd is getting slightly more creative (and shockingly literary) with your labels and insults.

Please coach jdinasia and animatic in artiisticly insulting. I find their labeling and belittling to have become rather mundane and droll of late.

PS be careful about the partial quoting. animatic takes it very personal and may cry to someone.

Edited April 1, 2010 by MellowYellow

[MellowYellow]

I think that if we can manage to keep digging up the past, we might just ensure that there is no real future.

Those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them?

[yesdavy]

Bangkokians considering themselves sophisticated is amusing. Looking down isn't sophisticated. It is naive. Trying to lift your self-esteem by pushing others down is childish and insecure. And the media, wow, with their unaudited print circulations, unverified demographics or audience counts, illiterate English, and a need to comply with philosophies of the state...this is sophisticated? Well, well...I guess you could say that, if you have never been anywhere but Bangkok. But, speaking from experience, if you travel abroad with so-called elite, in fact, very elite people from Bangkok, you are likely to see them resemble a deer caught in headlights when in the real world.