Buddhism / Brahmanism

[eggomaniac]

http://www.mahidol.ac.th/thailand/brahmans.html

While this Article is on a Thai University website, it appears to be written by a Western reporter. ?

I am curious to know how accurate it is describing the Societal influence of Brahmanism in Thailand, including its interrelationship with Buddhism.

[if you would be so kind]

---

There are some aspects of the Article which I would really like to get into more details, but it would be skirting with the Forum rules so I am hoping it will be okay to do a few PM's.

[phetaroi]

It's a pretty good article, and I can't comment on the technical accuracy of it. But, as an avid temple-goer (both as a Buddhist and as a resident-tourist), I have often asked Thai friends traveling with me why -- as they are Buddhists -- they worship a Hindu deity or why there would even be a Hindu deity statue at a Buddhist temple. Either by looks or words, the response amounts to -- what are you talking about? What Hindu deity? When I have asked about the Royal Ploughing Ceremony, I get a similar response -- what do you mean Brahman priests?

But then again, I find most of my Thai friends aren't very knowledgeable about Buddhism...even though they consider themselves to be rather devout Buddhists. That doesn't make them any less faithful, of course.

[andrisdg]

buddhism is not monotheastic so to often buddhists as do hindu's will worship a multitude of of dieties .brahman's are by birth the temple priest caste

buddhism/hinduism can be quiet indiscrinimate in there idoltary and any religious diety including chritianity will do as long as there is a representation to pray to

in south sri lanka there is ,name forgotten ,a buddhist temple complex which according to lonely planet incorporates also a hindu and chritian temple side by side with a buddhist temple

on my visit about 10 years ago there were 2 hindu temples and the 3rd the buddhist temple inside a larger buddhist complex which was a joint enterprise staffed by monks and hindu sadu's ,holy men who are not necessarily brahman

to have personal faith and live it is commendable but superstition and hypocrisy is the norm when like in pagan rome one can pick and choose the dieties to worship .after all as a business model bhuddism is alive and well as are religions world wide

[Trickcyclist]

in my experience, the locals resort to the Brahman priests for good luck ceremonies: blessing houses, good health, fortune, warding-off evil spirits etc. There are other non Brahman/Buddhist 'ceremonies' that people resort to that seem to have a voodooish nature to them, involving dolls, figures etc.

I believe that Buddhism has origins in Brahmanism.

I suppose all religions are motivated by fear of death and offer an insurance policy involving absolution for sins and promises of the afterlife etc and Christian ceremonies that we take for granted must seem pretty weird and even repulsive to non-Christians:

E.g. body and blood of Christ consumed at Holy Communion etc.

Teacher: "Are you sure you have the Catechism all buttoned-up Foster?"

Foster: "Bit hazy about the Trinity, sir."

Teacher: "Three in one, one in three, perfectly straightforward. If if any doubt ask the maths master." (or Alan Greenspan.)

Alan Bennett

[phetaroi]

buddhism is not monotheastic so to often buddhists as do hindu's will worship a multitude of of dieties .brahman's are by birth the temple priest caste

buddhism/hinduism can be quiet indiscrinimate in there idoltary and any religious diety including chritianity will do as long as there is a representation to pray to

in south sri lanka there is ,name forgotten ,a buddhist temple complex which according to lonely planet incorporates also a hindu and chritian temple side by side with a buddhist temple

on my visit about 10 years ago there were 2 hindu temples and the 3rd the buddhist temple inside a larger buddhist complex which was a joint enterprise staffed by monks and hindu sadu's ,holy men who are not necessarily brahman

to have personal faith and live it is commendable but superstition and hypocrisy is the norm when like in pagan rome one can pick and choose the dieties to worship .after all as a business model bhuddism is alive and well as are religions world wide

Based on my limited knowledge, I think you are incorrect in many points. First, I don't believe that Buddhism is "theistic" in any sense of the world. Not mono, not poly. It doesn't revolve around any god.

By idoltary, do you mean idolatry? I think you misunderstand the purpose of a Buddha image.

"To have personal faith and to live it" is not necessarily commendable. Jim Jones had personal faith and lived it...and led others to die for it.

Just because you don't agree with something in a religion, does not make it "superstition and hypocrisy".

To equate Buddhism to a business model is insulting. For every "rich" temple I've visited, I've visited multiple poor temples that are barely scraping by.

[sabaijai]

John Hoskin is a freelance writer who has lived in Bangkok for many years.

The article is accurate as far as it goes, although the influence of Brahmanism goes well beyond the royal court-associated ceremonies described.

In the history of Thailand and mainland SE Asia, animism developed first as an indigenous belief system, Brahmanism was imported by Indian traders and missionaries during the first half of the first millennium AD, and Pali Buddhism came along via several strains, including Mon, Khmer and Sinhalese, during the second half of the first millennium AD. Mahayana Buddhism was also around in southern Thailand for a few centuries.

Thai Buddhism at the most basic social level today is a syncretic blend of the three systems, ie Brahmanism, Pali Buddhism and animism. In this tripartite belief complex each layer serves a different purpose. Propitiation of nature spirits and ghosts protects the individual from immediate risk, paying respect to Brahmanist/Hindu deities aids with power, promotion, education etc and Buddhism assures a good rebirth. Both animism and Brahmanism are ultimately subordinate to Buddhism in this system.

The common mythology says that when the pantheon recognised that Gautama had reached a higher level of realisation than any other human being or divine entity in the cosmos, Indra, the king of the gods, immediately offered the services of the pantheon to Lord Buddha for all eternity, etc. Whenever you see a Brahmanist deity in a Buddhist temple, such as Indra, Garuda or Vishnu, it's intended to show that the Brahman pantheon supports or protects Buddhism.

[phetaroi]

John Hoskin is a freelance writer who has lived in Bangkok for many years.

The article is accurate as far as it goes, although the influence of Brahmanism goes well beyond the royal court-associated ceremonies described.

In the history of Thailand and mainland SE Asia, animism developed first as an indigenous belief system, Brahmanism was imported by Indian traders and missionaries during the first half of the first millennium AD, and Pali Buddhism came along via several strains, including Mon, Khmer and Sinhalese, during the second half of the first millennium AD. Mahayana Buddhism was also around in southern Thailand for a few centuries.

Thai Buddhism at the most basic social level today is a syncretic blend of the three systems, ie Brahmanism, Pali Buddhism and animism. In this tripartite belief complex each layer serves a different purpose. Propitiation of nature spirits and ghosts protects the individual from immediate risk, paying respect to Brahmanist/Hindu deities aids with power, promotion, education etc and Buddhism assures a good rebirth. Both animism and Brahmanism are ultimately subordinate to Buddhism in this system.

The common mythology says that when the pantheon recognised that Gautama had reached a higher level of realisation than any other human being or divine entity in the cosmos, Indra, the king of the gods, immediately offered the services of the pantheon to Lord Buddha for all eternity, etc. Whenever you see a Brahmanist deity in a Buddhist temple, such as Indra, Garuda or Vishnu, it's intended to show that the Brahman pantheon supports or protects Buddhism.

Not sure why it popped into my head, but I am reminded of a scene from the Cary Grant/Myrna Loy film "Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House". The wife spends several minutes explaining in great detail to the hardware man the precise shadings of colors she wants the various rooms in the house to be painted. He agrees with everything she is saying. Several minutes later after she has walked away, the hardware man says to his assistant something along the lines of, "Okay Harry, green, yellow, and blue."

What I trying to say is, that's it's all well and fine for the author and you -- as outsiders to the culture -- to review the historical technicalities of Buddhism in Thailand. I doubt that very many Thais, even the well-educated ones, have thought anything about all of that. Frankly, I doubt that many monks would understand it.

Just today I was moaning about the upcoming Songkran festival and all the water throwing. My Thai companion -- who has a Master's Degree (my point being that we're not talking about a country bumpkin) -- at one point said, "Well we throw water because it's hot." I asked him if he knew anything about the history of the Songkran festival. "Like what?" I told him about the ritual bathing of Buddha statues, which he remembered seeing, but went on to say that the water throwing is about keeping cool, not about Buddhism. Oh, okay.

I'm just saying that I'm not so sure that the historical "stuff" (which I do find very interesting) has much of any influence on "everyday" Buddhism in Thailand now.

[eggomaniac]

It's a pretty good article, and I can't comment

now that would have been pleasant, indeed.

[eggomaniac]

John Hoskin is a freelance writer who has lived in Bangkok for many years.

The article is accurate as far as it goes, although the influence of Brahmanism goes well beyond the royal court-associated ceremonies described.

In the history of Thailand and mainland SE Asia, animism developed first as an indigenous belief system, Brahmanism was imported by Indian traders and missionaries during the first half of the first millennium AD, and Pali Buddhism came along via several strains, including Mon, Khmer and Sinhalese, during the second half of the first millennium AD. Mahayana Buddhism was also around in southern Thailand for a few centuries.

Thai Buddhism at the most basic social level today is a syncretic blend of the three systems, ie Brahmanism, Pali Buddhism and animism. In this tripartite belief complex each layer serves a different purpose. Propitiation of nature spirits and ghosts protects the individual from immediate risk, paying respect to Brahmanist/Hindu deities aids with power, promotion, education etc and Buddhism assures a good rebirth. Both animism and Brahmanism are ultimately subordinate to Buddhism in this system.

The common mythology says that when the pantheon recognised that Gautama had reached a higher level of realisation than any other human being or divine entity in the cosmos, Indra, the king of the gods, immediately offered the services of the pantheon to Lord Buddha for all eternity, etc. Whenever you see a Brahmanist deity in a Buddhist temple, such as Indra, Garuda or Vishnu, it's intended to show that the Brahman pantheon supports or protects Buddhism.

Thank you so much for your enlightening Reply. I was beginning to wonder if I would get one that On Topic.

From you are saying, can we conclude that belief in Deities is part of Buddhism?

In one of the thousands of other Buddhist sites, I thought I had read that Buddhism was not a 'religion', because their was no belief in gods?

The 'official' answer to this question is important to me.

I can tell you, it my unshakable blelief that the pantheon exists. Thor, Zeus, Michael, Indra, Lucifer, and so on...

I believe Thailand is a favorite place for Vishnu and the Thai people are favoured by Vishnu. In the complicated ways Deities can, may, 'influence' earthly matters, Vishnu has a great amount of influence on Thailand's history.

I am not asking anyone else to believe this.

I don't know the chronology of the beginning of civilization in Thailand and when Buddha attained Enlightenment. [correct term?]

If the pantheon was given over to the services of Buddha, before then; I would still believe Vishnu had this influence, albeit, then, under the governance of Buddha. There were earthly Ramas before Buddha though, correct?

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Your comment about animism is probably worth another Topic. Let me just say, up until I have read many comments, from many sources that 'Thais are not Buddhists they are animists'. You have dome a very good job at painting this 'animism' as 'part of' the picture in Thailand. That was very educational. Now I can see how the whole 'amulet' phenomenum can possibly fit in after all, maybe?

Some Buddhist 'experts' say they are a non Buddhist, 'animistic', rituals/practises. [term?]

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dang I did sidetrack, I do have a better picture of 'animism'

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As for the OP, great Reply and so easy to 'read'. I am just confused about Buddhism and deities? I know Brahmans believe in them, but thought it had been said Buddhists don't. < I was wrong about that?

[sabaijai]

From you are saying, can we conclude that belief in Deities is part of Buddhism?

Don't jump to conclusions that 'deities are part of Buddhism,' eggomaniac. They are part of a tripartite, syncretic belief system held by a great many Thais, alongside Buddhism and animism, as described above.

And that's whether they've thought about it or not, Phetaroi

[Svenn]

From you are saying, can we conclude that belief in Deities is part of Buddhism?

Don't jump to conclusions that 'deities are part of Buddhism,' eggomaniac. They are part of a tripartite, syncretic belief system held by a great many Thais, alongside Buddhism and animism, as described above.

There is no one monolithic 'Buddhism' that exists out there eggomaniac, that anyone has a right to 'speak for'. What we have is a hodgepodge of Pali hearsay on 'what the Buddha said', generations of monks in other schools claiming different things he said, and countless culture including Thailand that call themselves Buddhist while blending other traditions in with it. It's not like the Catholic church where there is a single book that explains and codifies the 'religion.' There is however a core principle running through Buddhist texts of a subtle meditative technique based on non-differentiation that eventually leads to a final awakening, called Bodhi (the same Indo-European root word we use as 'bid', as at an auction: to 'present' or 'awake').

It is likely in many scholar's opinion that this core principle, of focusing attention away from the being or non-being of entities, existed before the Buddha, perhaps as far back as the Harrappa civilizations, but was similarly recorded in the Vedas and Upanishadic texts, all of which were based on a universal, non-differentiated self, atman, or the Buddhist transitive equivalent of anatman, non-self. Both of these principles are described as voiding consciousness's conventional distinction of an personal and external world. Some Buddhist texts reference Gautama's belief in deities, others don't... no one knows the answer of what he really thought. What we do know is the belief in deities, or in any other entity in existence or non-existence, is outside and irrelevant to the core principle aforementioned.

[eggomaniac]

From you are saying, can we conclude that belief in Deities is part of Buddhism?

Don't jump to conclusions that 'deities are part of Buddhism,' eggomaniac. They are part of a tripartite, syncretic belief system held by a great many Thais, alongside Buddhism and animism, as described above.

And that's whether they've thought about it or not, Phetaroi

Well, Sabaijai, it is the Thai belief system I am interested in for reasons you are probably aware of.

Now something you said in earlier has me actually 'thinking' of the 'possibility' of becoming Buddhist, but that can be for another day. If I misunderstood you 'about Buddha reaching the highest realization of any previous Deity' the 'notion' will fade. It fits in with 'made in God's image' sort of thinking.

On this topic, if you please, whose 'common mythology'? All of Buddhism or just Thai Buddhists.>>>

"""The common mythology says that when the pantheon recognized that Gautama had reached a higher level of realization than any other human being or divine entity in the cosmos, Indra, the king of the gods, immediately offered the services of the pantheon to Lord Buddha for all eternity, etc. Whenever you see a Brahmanist deity in a Buddhist temple, such as Indra, Garuda or Vishnu, it's intended to show that the Brahman pantheon supports or protects Buddhism."""

[phetaroi]

They are part of a tripartite, syncretic belief system held by a great many Thais, alongside Buddhism and animism, as described above.

And that's whether they've thought about it or not, Phetaroi

The latter is a good point, although can you have a "belief system" that you haven't thought about? Or is it just habit you learned as a child?

[phetaroi]

From you are saying, can we conclude that belief in Deities is part of Buddhism?

In one of the thousands of other Buddhist sites, I thought I had read that Buddhism was not a 'religion', because their was no belief in gods?

The 'official' answer to this question is important to me.

-------

Your comment about animism is probably worth another Topic. Let me just say, up until I have read many comments, from many sources that 'Thais are not Buddhists they are animists'. You have dome a very good job at painting this 'animism' as 'part of' the picture in Thailand. That was very educational. Now I can see how the whole 'amulet' phenomenum can possibly fit in after all, maybe?

Some Buddhist 'experts' say they are a non Buddhist, 'animistic', rituals/practises. [term?]

-----

Is the belief in deities part of Buddhism? You seem to want the answer, and I am not sure there is one answer. And I think the answers (note the plural) depend on whether or not you see Buddhism as a religion or philosophy...and that very long standing debate has gone on for eons, and continues to this day. In a recent interview the Dali Lama referred to Buddhism as one of the great religions. Does that mean he sees it as a religion, or was he taking a verbal short cut with a western interviewer?

In my view, if one sees Buddhism as a philosophy, there is far less room for the belief in deities. For example, Buddha said that Buddhists must "test" his teachings (big paraphrase). Well, so far I haven't seen any devas or visited Buddhist heavens or hells, so I haven't been able to verify those things.

On the other hand, if one sees it as a religion, then there is much room for the belief in Buddhist heaven and hel_l, devas, nagas, and the like.

What makes it difficult to pin down is that -- unlike in the Catholic Church (for example) -- there is no "creed" ("I believe in the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, in all that is seen an unseen...."). In being part of this forum for the past year I see all the variations (or should I say levels?) here. There are those who see it as a philosophy, those who see it as a religion, and those who see it as something that straddles both realms.

You asked about animism and amulets. I've discussed this matter with a couple of monks. One described the situation as being two-fold. Some people truly believe the amulets have the power to protect them, and that's pure animism. Some people use the amulets as a point of focus for meditation or calming thought. As for me it's the latter. The monks I had this discussion with said it was the same for Buddhist temples -- that everything you need for Buddhism is in your mind...that the things in the Buddhist temple (including the statues of Buddha) are there only as points of focus...although, as we all know, Thais are often seen PRAYING to Buddha statues.

I think you're very human in wanting the answer, and like most humans you'll be satisfied when someone, somewhere gives you the answer that is closest to the belief system you are already developing. In fact, it seems to me that you are seeking verification of your belief system now. Let me ask you, what if someone comes along with the answer and it is in complete disagreement with everything you now believe. Will you flip your current beliefs or will you assume the presenter is wrong? How will you know which belief is correct?

[eggomaniac]

, and I can't comment on the technical accuracy of it.

I wish...

[fabianfred]

Buddhism is a non-theistic religion...no belief in god or gods.

What other religions refer to as gods are beings in the higher realms.....Brahma, Indra, etc.

They are still stuck in the prison of Samsara and yet to achieve the noble states from Sotapanna to Arahant.

They can create and take on many forms and appear in other realms.

There are stories in the Buddha's teachings and Jataka tales about Indra's seat getting hot and causing him to see what the reason for it is...then appearing in the human realm to help teach someone a lesson.

Also it is said that after the Buddha achieved enlightenment and stayed in meditation under the Bodhi tree for several weeks, enjoying the knowledge and benefits of attaining Nibbana, he considered that the Dhamma was so profound and difficult to understand that he would not be able to teach it to anyone. It is said that Brahma heard and immediately appeared beside the Buddha, reminding him that there are some who only have a small amount of dust in front of their eyes, who would be able to understand and benefit. The Buddha therefore agreed and decided to teach the Dhamma.

These deities have not removed all of the defilements and can perhaps be prayed to and supplicated for their help, by those with a shallow understanding of the dhamma.

[rockyysdt]

Now something you said in earlier has me actually 'thinking' of the 'possibility' of becoming Buddhist, but that can be for another day. If I misunderstood you 'about Buddha reaching the highest realization of any previous Deity' the 'notion' will fade. It fits in with 'made in God's image' sort of thinking.

On this topic, if you please, whose 'common mythology'? All of Buddhism or just Thai Buddhists.>>>

"""The common mythology says that when the pantheon recognized that Gautama had reached a higher level of realization than any other human being or divine entity in the cosmos, Indra, the king of the gods, immediately offered the services of the pantheon to Lord Buddha for all eternity, etc. Whenever you see a Brahmanist deity in a Buddhist temple, such as Indra, Garuda or Vishnu, it's intended to show that the Brahman pantheon supports or protects Buddhism."""

I was interested E.

It seems you have certain beliefs which must be met in order to consider becoming Buddhist.

I thought the Buddha taught that we should eliminate all our attachments including beliefs in order to realize our non self.

Isn't attachment to beliefs & rituals merely following a religion which has nothing to do with Buddhism as the Buddha taught?

It's been indicated that following the four noble truths & eightfold path is the only way one can achieve self experience & verify any of the beliefs we're discussing.

Everything else involves the ego.

[eggomaniac]

Buddhism is a non-theistic religion...no belief in god or gods.

What other religions refer to as gods are beings in the higher realms.....Brahma, Indra, etc.

They are still stuck in the prison of Samsara and yet to achieve the noble states from Sotapanna to Arahant.

They can create and take on many forms and appear in other realms.

There are stories in the Buddha's teachings and Jataka tales about Indra's seat getting hot and causing him to see what the reason for it is...then appearing in the human realm to help teach someone a lesson.

Also it is said that after the Buddha achieved enlightenment and stayed in meditation under the Bodhi tree for several weeks, enjoying the knowledge and benefits of attaining Nibbana, he considered that the Dhamma was so profound and difficult to understand that he would not be able to teach it to anyone. It is said that Brahma heard and immediately appeared beside the Buddha, reminding him that there are some who only have a small amount of dust in front of their eyes, who would be able to understand and benefit. The Buddha therefore agreed and decided to teach the Dhamma.

These deities have not removed all of the defilements and can perhaps be prayed to and supplicated for their help, by those with a shallow understanding of the dhamma.

It is too confusing, to me, how Buddhism 'does not believe in gods', yet Brahma, by definition, a god, can 'appear beside Buddha'?

What about ghosts? All of the Thais I know believe in ghosts. We even had a very mysterious experience at a resort near Erawan Falls. [HER sister's business partner felt it necessary to phone early one morning from BKK about a dream she had whereby a ghost/witch was trying to pull us under water. Then we discovered some distinct and eerie looking hand prints of some clothing we had hung on the balcony rail. Somebody would have been a Spiderman to gain access to that outer railing.]

If they can believe in ghosts, which I am sure most Thais do, why not greater ghosts; ie gods, which I am sure most do, anyway. While I am dead sawy curious if highly advanced and knowledgeable Buddhists believe in ghosts?, or not, the main goal, for me, is what Thais believe and practice. What is 'correct' Buddhism is secondary, to me, I want to know about Thai Buddhism.

It has just dawned on me, right now, why I am after all this! [duh] While I did not realize it until now, my natural curiosity is being supplemented by what I should know as my little girl grows, concerning the beliefs of her other country.

The Erawan Shrine, in DT BKK, I have just learned is a depiction of Indra, the 'former?' king of the gods, before the pantheon was handed over to Buddha, according to common mythology.

My guess is most Thais believe the shrine is depiction of a higher Deity, a god. In the same way they believe in ghosts, I believe Thais believe in gods.

It is another, question, as whether they are all wrong, or not in purely correct Buddhist sense. [Maybe this has been discussed in OTHER threads. I know most Thais are not very knowledgeable of scriptural Buddhism. The description sabaijai gave of the triple faceted practices in Thailand is very apropos! To get all sophistic and say I only agree with it because he has described my belief is hogwash.

My main goal is to get a 'view' and 'map' a 'lay of the Land'. Sabaijai put forth NEW information to me, which really clicked with old info.

For me, right now, at this stage, in this one Topic, it is a matter of whether Thais believe in ghosts, spirits, higher beings and how closely what they do and practice coincides with Brahman believe and practice.

How right or wrong they are is another Topic.

[eggomaniac]

Now something you said in earlier has me actually 'thinking' of the 'possibility' of becoming Buddhist, but that can be for another day. If I misunderstood you 'about Buddha reaching the highest realization of any previous Deity' the 'notion' will fade. It fits in with 'made in God's image' sort of thinking.

On this topic, if you please, whose 'common mythology'? All of Buddhism or just Thai Buddhists.>>>

"""The common mythology says that when the pantheon recognized that Gautama had reached a higher level of realization than any other human being or divine entity in the cosmos, Indra, the king of the gods, immediately offered the services of the pantheon to Lord Buddha for all eternity, etc. Whenever you see a Brahmanist deity in a Buddhist temple, such as Indra, Garuda or Vishnu, it's intended to show that the Brahman pantheon supports or protects Buddhism."""

I was interested E.

It seems you have certain beliefs which must be met in order to consider becoming Buddhist.

I thought the Buddha taught that we should eliminate all our attachments including beliefs in order to realize our non self.

Isn't attachment to beliefs & rituals merely following a religion which has nothing to do with Buddhism as the Buddha taught?

It's been indicated that following the four noble truths & eightfold path is the only way one can achieve self experience & verify any of the beliefs we're discussing.

Everything else involves the ego.

Not EGGsactly Rocky, everything involves eggo,

sawy

hmmm... to reply to you, that really would be a whole new Topic.

I don't know if I want to that or if it would be appropriate this Forum.

To satisfy your curiosity, somewhat, it revolves on issues, such as were we made in God's image. If prophesies are being fulfilled do we really have free will? Also, I think there is enough structural evidences to prove there are, were, other wordly higher beings. Also, anybody who correctly predicted the future obviuosly had 'something' most of us don't have. To me, prophesies, coming true, are direct proof of the existence of God, gods, archangels, pantheons, Deities, whatever you want to call them.

Fabianland said 'Brahma appeared beside Buddha' and spoke to him. IF that is is an accurate of Buddhist scriptures, history, teachings, whatever you want to call it, then where does this 'Buddhism does believe in gods come from?'

The 'notion' that a man, Buddha, could have attained godhood, higher realization than the pantheon 'appeals' to me.

Later I will Google, "Is Buddha God?" I will predict there will hundreds of essays on that subject.

Right now, I am mostly interested, rightly or wrongly by 'pure' Buddhist beliefs, what Thais actually think and practice.

[phetaroi]

, and I can't comment on the technical accuracy of it.

I wish...

Generally in this area of the TV forum we don't insult each other, even when we may disagree with another poster.

No one has criticized your strong belief in "Thor, Zeus, Michael, Indra, Lucifer, and so on...", so please try to refrain from snide remarks directed at me or other posters.

[mauGR1]

Buddhism is a non-theistic religion...no belief in god or gods.

What other religions refer to as gods are beings in the higher realms.....Brahma, Indra, etc.

They are still stuck in the prison of Samsara and yet to achieve the noble states from Sotapanna to Arahant.

They can create and take on many forms and appear in other realms.

These deities have not removed all of the defilements and can perhaps be prayed to and supplicated for their help, by those with a shallow understanding of the dhamma.

Sorry to cut short your nice post, I quote what ( i think) sums it up for the OP question.

I have indeed a shallow understanding of the Dharma, but i can appreciate the message of Lord Buddha...Not to adore Deities.

And in everyone there is the possibility to transcend the Samsara in this life.(just follow the Instructions)

Some Brahman which i talked to, believes that Buddha came to put a stop to an abuse of animal (and human) sacrifices, which were and are sadly still common among the devotees of the Goddess Kali.

Lord Buddha was probably seen a weird "Protestant" holy man, by many different Religious Sects of ancient India.

I think "Animism" must have some deep roots in the human soul though, all the great Religions have tried to eradicate it, but it still exists.

[phetaroi]

Some Brahman which i talked to, believes that Buddha came to put a stop to an abuse of animal (and human) sacrifices, which were and are sadly still common among the devotees of the Goddess Kali.

Interesting post Maur. I was interested in your phraseology above -- "came to put a stop". What do you mean by that?

[eggomaniac]

I think you're very human in wanting the answer, and like most humans you'll be satisfied when someone, somewhere gives you the answer that is closest to the belief system you are already developing. In fact, it seems to me that you are seeking verification of your belief system now. Let me ask you, what if someone comes along with the answer and it is in complete disagreement with everything you now believe. Will you flip your current beliefs or will you assume the presenter is wrong? How will you know which belief is correct?

You said you cannot comment on the essay, but you commented anyway. WHY? you could start your own threads instead of putting your topics in others,

The above statement? I find it very demeaning and very inaccurate, and, of course, it has NOTHING to do with the Topic. You have no idea of my breadth of knowledge, how it was attained and where it leading!

Mods, there were a few very good Posts which did more than I was hoping in helping me with the learning I was seeking.

It's okay with me to consider this Topic closed, I got what I was seeking. Thank you very much.

[eggomaniac]

Some Brahman which i talked to, believes that Buddha came to put a stop to an abuse of animal (and human) sacrifices, which were and are sadly still common among the devotees of the Goddess Kali.

Interesting post Maur. I was interested in your phraseology above -- "came to put a stop". What do you mean by that?

suggest start your own thread.

[never argue with a sophist, they will say you don't what it means]

[mauGR1]

Some Brahman which i talked to, believes that Buddha came to put a stop to an abuse of animal (and human) sacrifices, which were and are sadly still common among the devotees of the Goddess Kali.

Interesting post Maur. I was interested in your phraseology above -- "came to put a stop". What do you mean by that?

Sorry phetaroi for my poor English,i wanted to say that ' He condemned that practice'.

[sabaijai]

They are part of a tripartite, syncretic belief system held by a great many Thais, alongside Buddhism and animism, as described above.

And that's whether they've thought about it or not, Phetaroi

The latter is a good point, although can you have a "belief system" that you haven't thought about? Or is it just habit you learned as a child?

Mostly the latter, for people who practice the systems inherited from their families.

When people who call themselves Buddhists - many Thais, for example - practice deity worship, it doesn't make it part of Buddhism. It just means they're practicing two belief systems syncretically, which each practice having a different set of objectives.

The same can be said of Catholicism in parts of Mexico, where Amerindian tribes who say they are Roman Catholics still practice certain pre-Christian animist rituals alongside Catholicism. Some of these rituals are even celebrated inside Catholic churches founded by the Spanish. That doesn't make the practices part of Roman Catholicism, but it does make Mexican Catholicism different from the Catholicism practiced in Rome.

[phetaroi]

Some Brahman which i talked to, believes that Buddha came to put a stop to an abuse of animal (and human) sacrifices, which were and are sadly still common among the devotees of the Goddess Kali.

Interesting post Maur. I was interested in your phraseology above -- "came to put a stop". What do you mean by that?

Sorry phetaroi for my poor English,i wanted to say that ' He condemned that practice'.

Ah, okay...thanks for the clarification. I thought it was sounding like you meant he "was sent" to do it.

[rockyysdt]

Not EGGsactly Rocky, everything involves eggo,

sawy

hmmm... to reply to you, that really would be a whole new Topic.

I don't know if I want to that or if it would be appropriate this Forum.

To satisfy your curiosity, somewhat, it revolves on issues, such as were we made in God's image. If prophesies are being fulfilled do we really have free will? Also, I think there is enough structural evidences to prove there are, were, other wordly higher beings. Also, anybody who correctly predicted the future obviuosly had 'something' most of us don't have. To me, prophesies, coming true, are direct proof of the existence of God, gods, archangels, pantheons, Deities, whatever you want to call them.

Fabianland said 'Brahma appeared beside Buddha' and spoke to him. IF that is is an accurate of Buddhist scriptures, history, teachings, whatever you want to call it, then where does this 'Buddhism does believe in gods come from?'

The 'notion' that a man, Buddha, could have attained godhood, higher realization than the pantheon 'appeals' to me.

Later I will Google, "Is Buddha God?" I will predict there will hundreds of essays on that subject.

Right now, I am mostly interested, rightly or wrongly by 'pure' Buddhist beliefs, what Thais actually think and practice.

Originally drawn to meditation for health reasons, I've always been fascinated by Buddhism.

Since participating in this forum I've learned much about Buddhism, both from contributors, posted references & by reading widely.

I'm also interested in what draws yourself & others towards the Dhamma & eventually into self experience through practice.

I personally have had a chronic condition all of my life which has placed me on a journey to find a diagnosis &/or cure.

Looking at my life from a mindfulness perspective, I can see that I've been slowly drawn to the Buddhas teachings & can see the final part of my life in practice. The theory is that I might discover something far more profound than my original focus.

What many have said on this forum is that the unprovable side of Buddhism (hel_l & heaven realms, devas, deities, titans, angels, re birth & so on) is really unimportant in terms of improving ones life, learning who we really are & what it means to become enlightened.

Other than serving to initially inspire you, holding onto such beliefs may turn out to be counter productive in terms of ones Buddhist practice.

I have many beliefs & theories but I work towards pushing them aside with mindfulness. Whilst anchored to my ego they fascinate me & serve to ispire but I known that eventually I'll have to let go in order to progress.

My major focus is on learning what the Buddha taught in terms of the Four Noble Truths & the Noble Eight Fold Path in order to gain personal experience.

What will then be revealed will be experienced personally rather than selecting a religion that dovetails into my beliefs.

What I've also learned is that the majority of Thai Buddhists including many monks don't know what the Buddha actually taught, let alone practice it.

It's our job to seek out those who are genuine teachers & to learn from them.

A well known Tharavadin Teacher had recently written that westerners just need to acquire a little faith & allow themselves to practice regular mindfulness & single pointed concentration.

How does this fit in to where you are at regarding Buddhism?

[eggomaniac]

Not EGGsactly Rocky, everything involves eggo,

sawy

hmmm... to reply to you, that really would be a whole new Topic.

I don't know if I want to that or if it would be appropriate this Forum.

To satisfy your curiosity, somewhat, it revolves on issues, such as were we made in God's image. If prophesies are being fulfilled do we really have free will? Also, I think there is enough structural evidences to prove there are, were, other wordly higher beings. Also, anybody who correctly predicted the future obviuosly had 'something' most of us don't have. To me, prophesies, coming true, are direct proof of the existence of God, gods, archangels, pantheons, Deities, whatever you want to call them.

Fabianland said 'Brahma appeared beside Buddha' and spoke to him. IF that is is an accurate of Buddhist scriptures, history, teachings, whatever you want to call it, then where does this 'Buddhism does believe in gods come from?'

The 'notion' that a man, Buddha, could have attained godhood, higher realization than the pantheon 'appeals' to me.

Later I will Google, "Is Buddha God?" I will predict there will hundreds of essays on that subject.

Right now, I am mostly interested, rightly or wrongly by 'pure' Buddhist beliefs, what Thais actually think and practice.

Originally drawn to meditation for health reasons, I've always been fascinated by Buddhism.

Since participating in this forum I've learned much about Buddhism, both from contributors, posted references & by reading widely.

I'm also interested in what draws yourself & others towards the Dhamma & eventually into self experience through practice.

I personally have had a chronic condition all of my life which has placed me on a journey to find a diagnosis &/or cure.

Looking at my life from a mindfulness perspective, I can see that I've been slowly drawn to the Buddhas teachings & can see the final part of my life in practice. The theory is that I might discover something far more profound than my original focus.

What many have said on this forum is that the unprovable side of Buddhism (hel_l & heaven realms, devas, deities, titans, angels, re birth & so on) is really unimportant in terms of improving ones life, learning who we really are & what it means to become enlightened.

Other than serving to initially inspire you, holding onto such beliefs may turn out to be counter productive in terms of ones Buddhist practice.

I have many beliefs & theories but I work towards pushing them aside with mindfulness. Whilst anchored to my ego they fascinate me & serve to ispire but I known that eventually I'll have to let go in order to progress.

My major focus is on learning what the Buddha taught in terms of the Four Noble Truths & the Noble Eight Fold Path in order to gain personal experience.

What will then be revealed will be experienced personally rather than selecting a religion that dovetails into my beliefs.

What I've also learned is that the majority of Thai Buddhists including many monks don't know what the Buddha actually taught, let alone practice it.

It's our job to seek out those who are genuine teachers & to learn from them.

A well known Tharavadin Teacher had recently written that westerners just need to acquire a little faith & allow themselves to practice regular mindfulness & single pointed concentration.

How does this fit in to where you are at regarding Buddhism?

Rocky

very thougtful disclosure...

I don't want to answer you in this Thread, maybe another, or could PM you?

>>>>.. on the issue you raised of regeneration for health, I think pranayama, with it's 4 stages of the breath is the best for that. I don't think you have to be a Hindu to perform it and can still follow Buddhist codes?.

the 2 breath holds, one at the top and one at the bottom are the 'magic' sources of power.

[phetaroi]

are the 'magic' sources of power.

In one thread you've focused on discussions of Brahmanism, Thor, Zeus, Michael, Indra, Lucifer, Vishnu, ghosts, and now "magic sources of power". Yet you called me off-topic. While an ongoing theme that often pops up in this forum is varying levels of belief/agreement with "mainstream Buddhism" (for wont of a better term), I think you're getting very close to the realm of pop-Buddhism.