Thaksin And His Adriatic Retreat

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE

Thaksin and his Adriatic retreat

By Jintana Panyaarvudh

BANGKOK: -- While a local media gossip columnist was reporting Khunying Pojaman na Pombejra was in Hong Kong and enjoying cooking Thai food for her visitors, her ex-husband was apparently toughening it out, wandering around Europe and the Middle East - from his Dubai base, to Montenegro, Sweden, Russia and then back to Dubai.

Among those countries, Montenegro - the country in the Balkans on the Adriatic Sea - seemed the most interesting of his recent stopovers.

The country was in the Thai media spotlight when Thaksin and his family stayed there as his red-shirt supporters rallied in Bangkok last month.

Pictures of Thaksin and family were widely published as the ex-PM visited an under-renovation hotel he'd invested in with friends.

The Podgorica daily Vijesti said Thaksin and family stayed in a luxury villa in Budva, a Montenegrin Adriatic resort. Some reports said they stayed at the Astoria hotel, where Montenegrin Prime Minister Milo Djukanovic is a regular guest.

It was reported last year that Thaksin bid for an island in Montenegro in the belief he wanted to invest there in order to get a passport and citizenship.

And it was confirmed by Montenegro officials during his latest visit that Thaksin was in Montenegro as a citizen.

For an investor, his interest sounded reasonable.

According to Wikipedia, Montenegro is well suited for development for all kinds of tourism, as it has both a picturesque coast and a mountainous northern region.

The country was a well-known tourist spot in the 1980s, but the Yugoslav wars fought in neighbouring countries during the 1990s crippled the tourist industry and destroyed Montenegro as a tourist destination.

It was not until the 2000s that the tourism industry began to recover, and the country has since experienced a high rate of growth in the number of visits and overnight stays.

The government of Montenegro has made the development of Montenegro as an elite tourist destination a top priority, Wikipedia said.

In 2007 the number of tourists to the country peaked, almost reaching pre-war volume.

As a result, in 2008 many roads were renovated (which affects driving time) and many hotels constructed or renovated (resulting in extra noise and inconvenience).

Apart from being a tourist spot, the country was reported as a haven for criminals and money laundering.

It was said drug boss Serbian Darko Aric and Stanko Subotic, aka Cane, head of the so called "Tobacco Mafia", sheltered in Montenegro.

Montenegro was recently sharply criticised by Serbia, where officials accused the tiny republic of allowing fugitives from justice to obtain citizenship.

Since its laws, as in all other former Yugoslav republics, prohibit the extradition of citizens for prosecution in other countries, many criminals have found shelter from justice not only in Montenegro, but also other countries in the region.

So, once fugitive ex-premier Thaksin receives its citizenship, he can use the country as a shelter. It was confirmed by the Montenegro Interpol Office chief, Dejan Jurovic, last month that Montenegro would not extradite Thaksin.

"Shinawatra is our citizen, and Montenegro can only extradite its citizens to the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague," he told media in Podgorica.

This then could be the answer why Thaksin, who faces a two-year jail term in Thailand, wanted to invest in Montenegro - as he could finally shelter there for as long as he wanted to live as a fugitive.

-- The Nation 2010-04-05

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[yoshiwara]

Apart from being a tourist spot, the country was reported as a haven for criminals and money laundering.

It was said drug boss Serbian Darko Aric and Stanko Subotic, aka Cane, head of the so called "Tobacco Mafia", sheltered in Montenegro.

Montenegro was recently sharply criticised by Serbia, where officials accused the tiny republic of allowing fugitives from justice to obtain citizenship.

Since its laws, as in all other former Yugoslav republics, prohibit the extradition of citizens for prosecution in other countries, many criminals have found shelter from justice not only in Montenegro, but also other countries in the region.

Well fancy that!

[kissdani]

According to Wikipedia, Montenegro is ...

... whatever.

Now on Wikipedia the wikipedians can backlink to this article and claim everything is proved with external third party sources.

[aussiebebe]

Exactly, kissdani, exactly. Well put. I was similarly disturbed to read:

The government of Montenegro has made the development of Montenegro as an elite tourist destination a top priority, Wikipedia said.

That journalists can now quote wikipedia as a source for their stories is quite a troubling development.

[kraxlhuber]

Apart from being a tourist spot, the country was reported as a haven for criminals and money laundering.

It was said drug boss Serbian Darko Aric and Stanko Subotic, aka Cane, head of the so called "Tobacco Mafia", sheltered in Montenegro.

Montenegro was recently sharply criticised by Serbia, where officials accused the tiny republic of allowing fugitives from justice to obtain citizenship.

Since its laws, as in all other former Yugoslav republics, prohibit the extradition of citizens for prosecution in other countries, many criminals have found shelter from justice not only in Montenegro, but also other countries in the region.

Well fancy that!

Montenegro,now Monterosso

[Insight]

According to Wikipedia, Montenegro is ...

... whatever.

Now on Wikipedia the wikipedians can backlink to this article and claim everything is proved with external third party sources.

Agree on that. Despite the huge amount of content on Wikipedia it's still not mature enough to be used in articles such as this - The Nation has let itself down badly.

Doesn't make the facts its used for supporting less truthful in this instance IMHO however.

[animatic]

Apart from being a tourist spot, the country was reported as a haven for criminals and money laundering.

It was said drug boss Serbian Darko Aric and Stanko Subotic, aka Cane, head of the so called "Tobacco Mafia", sheltered in Montenegro.

Montenegro was recently sharply criticised by Serbia, where officials accused the tiny republic of allowing fugitives from justice to obtain citizenship.

Since its laws, as in all other former Yugoslav republics, prohibit the extradition of citizens for prosecution in other countries, many criminals have found shelter from justice not only in Montenegro, but also other countries in the region.

Well fancy that!

Who could imagine Thaksin picking a country with almost no extradition...?

Well crank up the Drug War killings files and send that to The Hague...

[animatic]

According to Wikipedia, Montenegro is ...

... whatever.

Now on Wikipedia the wikipedians can backlink to this article and claim everything is proved with external third party sources.

Agree on that. Despite the huge amount of content on Wikipedia it's still not mature enough to be used in articles such as this - The Nation has let itself down badly.

Doesn't make the facts its used for supporting less truthful in this instance IMHO however.

At least they said it was a Wiki quote as source,

and thus we can use our judgment to decide if it is valid or not.

Same as us using Wiki on our own.

[OzMick]

Poster #3 & 4 seem to have a problem with Wikipedia - could you please elaborate?

I understand that it is opinion only and should be cross-referenced (and circularity avoided), I also understand the computer term SISO. It is also free and readily available to almost everyone, so that incorrect statements can be corrected.

As a child my father paid more than a few weeks wages for a set of encyclopedias for his 5 children, and easy sell by a slick salesman playing on a parent. I'm sad to report that about 1 page in a thousand was ever looked at, and quite a lot of the contained information was out of date. I'll take wiki any day.

[clinique]

our understanding is that Wikipedia, can be updated by "anyone" so how can this be used as a'factual and relaibale' source document. ?? it is not produced by one company or a relaible source as far as we can see.. any one care to comment ?

[kissdani]

Exactly, kissdani, exactly. Well put. I was similarly disturbed to read:

The government of Montenegro has made the development of Montenegro as an elite tourist destination a top priority, Wikipedia said.

That journalists can now quote wikipedia as a source for their stories is quite a troubling development.

You mean that is a minor issue and not so important?

It shows how is the overall journalist work ethic of the writer or the lack of it. This way mistakes and errors get quoted back again. The next journalist copied something from wikipedia and soon you have more 'sources' that repeat some mistake, error and it becomes true.

I found the non extradicte our citizen quote on the internet too, published on 24.3.

'PODGORICA -- Chief of Montenegro’s Interpol Office Dejan Đurović says that Montenegro would not extradite former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

“Shinawatra is our citizen, and Montenegro can only extradite its citizens to the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague,” he told media in Podgorica.

Đurović stated that Montenegro would immediately extradite suspected drug boss Darko Šarić to Serbia if he was in found in its territory, "because he is a Serbian citizen and Serbia country issued an international arrest warrant for cocaine smuggling".

“The same goes for (Stanko) Subotić who is also a Serbian citizen,“ he pointed out.

Đurović went on to say that Montenegro was looking 232 persons through Interpol, mostly for criminal association, fraud and narcotics trafficking.

“The best-known there is Veselin Batko Vlahović. On Interpol’s public website we have about twenty persons, others are on secret arrest warrants,” he explained.

...

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article...mp;nav_id=66024

compare that with that what The Nation reporter found out on wikipedia or wherever.

[animatic]

Poster #3 & 4 seem to have a problem with Wikipedia - could you please elaborate?

I understand that it is opinion only and should be cross-referenced (and circularity avoided), I also understand the computer term SISO. It is also free and readily available to almost everyone, so that incorrect statements can be corrected.

As a child my father paid more than a few weeks wages for a set of encyclopedias for his 5 children, and easy sell by a slick salesman playing on a parent. I'm sad to report that about 1 page in a thousand was ever looked at, and quite a lot of the contained information was out of date. I'll take wiki any day.

Well I'll take the good encyclopedia.

Reason is this anyone can change Wiki.

What it may SEEM to gain with being up to date,

it loses in and semblance of trustworthy accuracy.

An example:

During the PAD Rallies you could see people changing the pages daily for political mis-information.

You could watch in an hour a red coming in drop something false,

and 15 minutes later a Yellow come in and drop a replacement.

All to make their idols look best to the world,

also Thaksins people would edit out bad stuff about him.

Sure somethings are accurate on Wiki and others never change at all, others change on a daily basis based

on prejudices or propaganda. WIKI IS A USEFUL TOOL, but as a document of record it falls down.

There are actual vetted Encyclopedia references on the net Reference.com for example.

Usually drawing from one or two OTHER references for comparison.

[khunjamespittman]

"Apart from being a tourist spot, the country was reported as a haven for criminals and money laundering.

It was said drug boss Serbian Darko Aric and Stanko Subotic, aka Cane, head of the so called "Tobacco Mafia", sheltered in Montenegro."

Montenegro was recently sharply criticised by Serbia, where officials accused the tiny republic of allowing fugitives from justice to obtain citizenship.

Was this sourced from Wikipedia or is it someone's opinion?

Since its laws, as in all other former Yugoslav republics, prohibit the extradition of citizens for prosecution in other countries, many criminals have found shelter from justice not only in Montenegro, but also other countries in the region.

Isn't this the same for most countries, including Thailand?

[SoMeOnEnUlL]

It didn't surprise me.. after all, it's from the "The Nation".

[robint]

You have overlooked the fact that these mirky places that allow flags of convenience, easy passports and citizenship etc, also have a flip side.

Aprt from attracting world wide criminal scum (like ptya) , nice people to hob nob with eh?

it also means a perilous lack of security. frinstance I wouldnt want to hide out from the mafia or the mormons in a place like that, its too easy for them to get at you.

whats sauce for the goose

With all the dirty business surrounding ykw, how could he sleep at night except in a fortress and a palace guard of eunuchs - like the jannisseries. thats why he has to keep on the move paying through the nose for protection and influence

Shame eh?

[kissdani]

Poster #3 & 4 seem to have a problem with Wikipedia - could you please elaborate?

I understand that it is opinion only and should be cross-referenced (and circularity avoided), I also understand the computer term SISO. It is also free and readily available to almost everyone, so that incorrect statements can be corrected.

As a child my father paid more than a few weeks wages for a set of encyclopedias for his 5 children, and easy sell by a slick salesman playing on a parent. I'm sad to report that about 1 page in a thousand was ever looked at, and quite a lot of the contained information was out of date. I'll take wiki any day.

I know, almost everyone can participate, errors can be corrected. It is always work in progress and mostly up to date. There is a discussion to every wiki entry and for an article like the one on Hot Dog, b-rated in quality, is discussed on a 38 pages long wikitalk.

Still it isn't perfect. One of the flaws is here explained:

Wikipedia Article creates Circular references

http://techdebug.com.nyud.net/blog/2008/04...lar-references/

another similar example here: Wikipedia prankster dupes German media

http://www.thelocal.de/sci-tech/20090212-17397.html

Avoiding circularity fails if journalists don't name their sources (wikipedia in these cases).

General speaking you are right, Wikipedia is not that bad and when it comes to the 'soft' topics like the development of tourism or how a diesel engine works it is okay.

I agree with you, wikipedia any day. but maybe not for any topic.

When it comes to hot issues like the political situation in a state it is more and more unreliable. I think i don't have to explain it why.

Same goes for for other sources you maybe find with a quick google search. Montenegros independence is not undisputed and you will find a lot of partisan propaganda and mud throwing to everything that is related to it. As a journalist doing his research on the Internet you have to be extra careful.

Isn't that The Nation article a good example for it that when you hear 'wikipedia' it is a hint that you should fine tune your BS sensor and be skeptical?

The use of wikipedia as source for a newspaper article is questionable. Wikipedia itself isn't a quotable authority. Actually is the phrase "according to wikipedia" or "wikipedia says" synomym to "I heard that..." , "Critics claim..." (Which critics?) ,"Studies show..." (what studies?) "Some argue ..." typical weasel word. weasel words are words to avoid as wikipedian know. For a newspaper not the way to establish credibility.

I am not anti-wikipedia. It has its usefulness. Natural sciences, chemistry, biology, mathematics, geography, technology ... wiki can be sufficient, for non-academical normal use. You can study what a subspecies of the internet people find interesting (not every user or reader becomes an editor on wiki) like the Hot Dog example or that a fictional place like Middle Earth get much more attention than many actual existing countries and nations in Asia, Africa or America. Or you can compare what the wikipedians of different languages write to a specific topic.

Sorry, I could not resist. When i read "According to Wikipedia" i had to reply. If i hadn't done it sooner or later someone else would pointing at it. Wiki bashing has become a running gag and not every time groundless.

[Zolt]

I'm not wiki-bashing. I think Wikipedia is a wonderfully useful source of information. As for any source of information, one should always check his sources' sources as a matter of course.

Anyway, for a professional journalist to begin a sentence with "According to Wikipedia" is just... beyond words. Unless his intent is to prove wikipedia wrong, in which case it's just cheap. I mean, he could as well start it with "I couldn't be bothered to actually do my job as a journalist"... or "I have no idea where Montenegro is on a map but I'm going to be condescending anyway..."

So. To sum up the article: Thaksin has obtained Montenegro citizenship, which could avoid him extradition to Thailand, should he ever be charged with stuff that would make an extradition possible. His current conviction for corruption doesn't warrant one. Some notable criminals have done the same thing...

So what?

He doesn't have to prove that he's a criminal, he's already convicted. He's just secured a fallback plan, which is a smart move all in all. Not so much from a PR point of view, but at this stage, people either love him or hate him and they're not going to change their minds.

[yoshiwara]

"Apart from being a tourist spot, the country was reported as a haven for criminals and money laundering.

It was said drug boss Serbian Darko Aric and Stanko Subotic, aka Cane, head of the so called "Tobacco Mafia", sheltered in Montenegro."

Montenegro was recently sharply criticised by Serbia, where officials accused the tiny republic of allowing fugitives from justice to obtain citizenship.

Was this sourced from Wikipedia or is it someone's opinion?

Since its laws, as in all other former Yugoslav republics, prohibit the extradition of citizens for prosecution in other countries, many criminals have found shelter from justice not only in Montenegro, but also other countries in the region.

Isn't this the same for most countries, including Thailand?

Maybe you would like to advise your hero Mr Thaksin of the other countries which would be happy to offer refuge to wanted criminals who wish to remain active in their criminal activities. as opposed to quietly retiring.

[jayboy]

Maybe you would like to advise your hero Mr Thaksin of the other countries which would be happy to offer refuge to wanted criminals who wish to remain active in their criminal activities. as opposed to quietly retiring.

We get your point since you have made it multiple times to the point of boring everyone silly.You think that anyone who expresses sympathy for all or any aspects of the Red cause is a Thaksin dupe or apologetic, even if it's made clear there are multiple reservations or even contempt for the man.That's about it, right? So enough already!

Moving on mercifully to a less shrill and one note analysis here's an excellent article by Dennis Gray in the Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0200488_pf.html

[gemini81]

Maybe you would like to advise your hero Mr Thaksin of the other countries which would be happy to offer refuge to wanted criminals who wish to remain active in their criminal activities. as opposed to quietly retiring.

We get your point since you have made it multiple times to the point of boring everyone silly.You think that anyone who expresses sympathy for all or any aspects of the Red cause is a Thaksin dupe or apologetic, even if it's made clear there are multiple reservations or even contempt for the man.That's about it, right? So enough already!

Moving on mercifully to a less shrill and one note analysis here's an excellent article by Dennis Gray in the Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0200488_pf.html

good article showing the facts, and the things that have to be reckoned with in all aspects. It'll take some time!

[Rtwo]

Apart from being a tourist spot, the country was reported as a haven for criminals and money laundering.

Well fancy that!

A bit like Thailand then eh? He'll seem quite at home then won't he?