Rote Learning

[witold]

In America, most people end up getting an education that they deserve.

Education quality and rigor is very stratified.

One can cite that the median doesn't know where Iceland is and that may be true, but the best and the brightest have received some of the best education available in the world. People come from all over the world to do their doctorates, post-docs, and research and it's not just because of prestige. It's because of quality of program, quality of learning, and quality of colleagues.

I do think that many Euro countries deliver the best median education, but I also think that the US delivers superior top-end education. (BTW, I went to primary school in E. Europe, and University in US.)

[PeaceBlondie]

I may be mistaken. But an educational system which relies on

Rote learning in secondary school

Rampant cheating and plagiarism

Widespread inefficiency among administrators who are bribed

Curriculum and textbooks which don't work

angrit teachers who can't pronounce academic

Multiple choice Q&A that make no sense

Lecture method droned by seated teachers who ask no questions and forbid students to ask

Etc. etc. etc. ad infinitim, are doomed to fail.

[phetaroi]

More of a rant than answers lol, the problems in the system here are very deep and intertwined.

Yes, quite definitely a rant. I'd like to make a suggestion to you, although I know you don't respect my viewpoints.

Your diatribe is probably very valid. I guess in terms of being a more satisfied teacher, it might be wise to move your attention somewhat away from all the things that you see wrong about schools in Thailand...and probably can't do much about (hence your frustration)...and focus instead on the interaction between you and the student/students. That's where you can make a difference...even if the difference is not to the extent you wish because of how a Thai school will control what you do in your classroom.

Early on in my teaching career I went to work in a suburban school which had a reputation of being just one step above an inner-city school. When I went to work there, I was -- believe it or not -- the 13th teacher in that classroom that year. Sounds unbelievable, but true. On the first day, the science chairperson sat me down and said, "Vince, don't worry about teaching. Just try to hold it together. Keep kids in the room. Try to prevent fistfights. If you can do that, we'll be well satisfied." And I certainly had my battles, although for me it was more about the physical status of the classroom. Window blinds were broken and hanging oddly and uselessly. The lab sinks were mostly leaking all over. I put in work orders that never resulted in any repairs, so I finally fixed what I could myself. When the principal observed me later in the year he wrote on the evaluation that I had ignored needed room repairs, and when I showed him work orders, he said, "It's still your responsibility." This principal was so very bad, that he ended up a topic for 20 minutes of one "60 Minutes" broadcast!

About ten days after I started, the department chair came in to see if I was still alive. He was stunned. All the kids were working on a physical science lab. All the kids were graphing data they were collecting in the experiment. They had science notebooks. There was no disruption. A couple of months later he was stunned to learn that when the school refused to purchase frogs for dissection for my one biology class (because that was the "lowest class" of the school), that we took a little field trip and caught our own frogs.

At the end of that year I decided to move on, and had glowing references that allowed me to do so. But when I walked out of that building for the last time, I was satisfied with a job well done. Why? Because I had mostly shut out the fights that occurred in the cafeteria, the disruption in the halls, the booing in school assemblies and sporting events, the idiotic principal, and I ignored the grumbling and moaning and groaning of most of the rest of the teachers, and focused on my relationship with my students. I knew I couldn't change the school. I knew I could change the kids in my room.

I'm going to say something else that I know you're not going to like. In your previous response to one of my questions you said, "I have a bachelors in sociology and a tefl cert with no prior teaching exp. other than corp training before coming to thailand. Anything related to western education is totally worthless."

You sound like a very dedicated young (?) man. I'm not going to pooh-pooh a B.A. in sociology or a TEFL certificate...although many professional educators would. But I will say that in teaching kids the first year is always the worst. Most first year teachers -- even though they've been through two or more years of education courses and a semester of student teaching -- don't even know what they don't know. Not sure what your TEFL prep was like, but most revolve around a roughly one-month training program which may or may not be online. I assume you spent about 4 years earning your sociology degree...and about 4 weeks earning your TEFL certificate. Dedicated as you may be, I doubt that you have developed a very broad repertoire of strategies that you can turn to when a student or a group of students aren't learning. Yes, I know that the Thai folks aren't allowing you much flexibility, but I have to doubt that you have much flexibility, as compared to a thoroughly trained and experienced professional teacher.

The Education Ministry here is not the do-nothing body you seem to think it is. I know because my Thai spouse works in the Education Ministry in what I would describe as a mid-level position there. There are several areas in which they are attempting to do more teacher training -- and those areas include technology and thinking skills. Each month there is at least one multi-day training program regarding technology in different areas of the country. Basically, they are training what in the States we would call "lead teachers", who will then supposedly go back to their schools and reteach the rest of staffs. And, there is much more on-site monitoring of what is happening in schools than there used to be. You may not have noticed it, but within the past two months, there was a national recognition for some teachers who had gone beyond the regular curriculum and were working on developing thinking skills instead of rote learning. There's also a rather admirable television presence; I've watched some of the programs that are in English, and I've been fairly impressed. Western teachers in the schools here like to blame the school directors for being inflexible. Undoubtedly true (although perhaps, to some extent, they're doing the job as they've been told to do it). One of the problems the EM is having, is teacher resistance to training programs. Which is exactly a problem we had in the States. To be frank, there are many teachers who don't want to learn new strategies, who just want to always do what they've always done. And you know what that gets us. You may also not be aware of the exchange programs the EM is sponsoring for their staff to learn educational trends in other countries. I know of extended exchange programs with other ASEAN nations, the US, and South Korea...and I think Japan.

I see a great battle line -- a front -- between western educators and Thai educators. And I think it's understandable and contributed to by both groups.

Western teachers: You're doing it all wrong. You have to stop doing it the Thai way. You're ruining kids' lives. Do it the American way (or British way, or whatever). We know that's better.

Thai teachers: You don't understand Thai culture. That's not the way we do things here. You're insulting us. We're professionals, too.

And then there's one more caveat I want to give you. Go to ajarn dot com and just start reading the posts of Western teachers who are teaching here. There are some wonderful and very knowledgeable people there. But there are also far too many...well, let's just say that there are many there who bring disgrace to the teaching profession. If you start reading their posts, you tell me if it's the best the profession of teaching has to offer. You tell me if you would respect many of the people who post there.

You don't want to listen to anything an experienced western retired teacher and principal has to say. Okay. Fair enough. No problem. But why should Thai teachers and administrators want to listen to you?

Don't get me wrong -- I admire you that you care! And I sincerely mean that. But I do think you need to be a little more open-minded.

[phetaroi]

I may be mistaken. But an educational system which relies on

Rote learning in secondary school

Rampant cheating and plagiarism

Widespread inefficiency among administrators who are bribed

Curriculum and textbooks which don't work

angrit teachers who can't pronounce academic

Multiple choice Q&A that make no sense

Lecture method droned by seated teachers who ask no questions and forbid students to ask

Etc. etc. etc. ad infinitim, are doomed to fail.

You're so right. I might just say be relatively ineffective, rather than doomed to fail...simply because an important question is -- are they succeeding at their goals and objectives (which may not be appropriate or right), or by international standards?

[thunder30101]

Okay you dont have a clue about what you are saying, and thats all I have to say

[phetaroi]

Okay you dont have a clue about what you are saying, and thats all I have to say

And I, of course, bow to your extensive degree work in the field of education and your vast experience in the field of teaching.

I do, sincerely, wish you luck in the future and hope that there comes a time when you are happier teaching.

[PeaceBlondie]

Fine, we'll agree in large part. I'll concede it's not impossible. However, considering the large number of very serious problems and the failure of Thais to face them, I'll make a wild guess that solving them is extremely unlikely at any time in the foreseeable future.

[Ijustwannateach]

I have placed the problem of rote learning back in the cultural context and commented on it in the other thread (on 'Thai culture' and its effects on education).

I will read further on this thread later.

[Ijustwannateach]

I believe I have addressed the cultural issue on the other thread to the extent that I would want to- though I would say to Phetaroi that the *reason* that Thais would all say on a survey that 'Thainess' should be taught would be that they would feel that was the required ('correct') answer- how would they have learned this? Through values emphasizing cultural assimilation, social cohesion, compliance- the information having been taught by rote.

May I suggest, for instance, the growing popularity of Christian private schools- otherwise difficult to explain in a Buddhist/Confucian/Hindu/Moslem population- among minority groups such as Thai Chinese, Thai Indians, and other apparently 'assimilated' minorities as a means of avoiding both 'Thainess' and the Thai educational project, which as I emphasize on the other thread is not about learning in the Western sense but about allegiance to a social project.

In principal, I agree with Phetaroi that rote learning is good for what it is good for- times tables are a classic example. But learning and education are so much more than that. Most contemporary models of education emphasize collective learning, cultural boundary crossing, and collaborative construction of knowledge by learners. Thailand has heard about these ideas, but there are very few practioners able to to walk the walk- leading to a lot of modern-sounding mission statements with very little in the way of models or development or training for teachers to follow (who then throw up their hands and just keep doing things the old way but giving lip service to current trends).

The cultural divide from the Western standpoint, as I contend in the other thread, is much more serious than 'this is the best way to learn.' It is a serious misunderstanding of the purpose of schooling in Thailand. Allegiance and deference are the goals. The student cheated on his project? Mai penh rai, he apologised nicely. The student failed? It's ok, she's polite and she dresses correctly and cleans her fingernails. The national average on the academic test is way too low, even though it is covering our own curriculum taught by our own teachers? No problem, we'll just have to adjust the tests- or even start giving out the answers through our prep schools. Note that all of these situations involve not only the students but also the teachers in the project of establishing face and compliance as the quality truly rewarded and touted in Thai education. These are widespread, endemic examples. They used to be frustrating to me until I understood what was really going on. The students are being made ready to be Thai adults, and this is the training that is truly needed.

[Scott]

Absolutely correct. I give you a page full of examples, but suffice it to say that when rote learning is being used, everyone seems to be in their comfort zone.

As a student, a very long time ago, rote learning was the primary method used, if I recall, in many western countries. Students, however, were not discouraged from thinking and there was always the short little essay asking something like 'What do you think...." We were positively reinforced for expressing an opinion or an idea based on what we had learned.

It wasn't until I attended University that I heard professors who were critical of historic events, for example, who took the events apart and began speculating as to why things happened. Science, of course, required some thinking, but even lab classes were much like a recipe book. Of course, if the experiment didn't work, part of our learning was to figure out 'why' it hadn't worked.

Other than making bottle rockets and paper airplanes, I haven't seen much science and I think we all remember how 'Thainess' played in to the fiasco with the paper airplane boy of Burmese descent.

[Unfaithful]

Matayom students cannot memorize conversation by rote.You ask them "What is your favorite food?" and they answer "Yes" or nothing.

[myauq]

I may be mistaken. But an educational system which relies on

Rote learning in secondary school

Rampant cheating and plagiarism

Widespread inefficiency among administrators who are bribed

Curriculum and textbooks which don't work

angrit teachers who can't pronounce academic

Multiple choice Q&A that make no sense

Lecture method droned by seated teachers who ask no questions and forbid students to ask

Etc. etc. etc. ad infinitim, are doomed to fail.

You're so right. I might just say be relatively ineffective, rather than doomed to fail...simply because an important question is -- are they succeeding at their goals and objectives (which may not be appropriate or right), or by international standards?

succinct - well put both of you.

all these issues are so bound up in the ego/face thing, and always wanting to yell out 'finished!!!!'.

i teach in a well to do international school. i just asked my kids to make a picture-book list of irregular verbs. they have to speak english everyday, and we've been working on this project for a few weeks. when they complete one list of verbs, with accompanying pictures, they need to collect another list of verbs - there are thousands of verbs in english, so i tell them (jokingly) i doubt they will finish this year. so i got a bit annoyed when 4 students said 'i'm finished' within a minute of me handing out the exercise.

in fact, i spent an hour long lesson last term on the importance of listening and children not putting their hands up to ask inane questions - like 'can i draw a picture?', 'can i colour in my picture' and 'i'm finished what do i do next?'. i wrote these questions on the board and explained that when i say 'yes, i want you to draw a picture and colour it in', that that means i want them to draw a picture and colour it in. i gave other real life examples where it's important to listen when given instructions, so that when you do have questions you can ask them at the right time (when you are given them, or someone asks 'do you understand?') i even have the lesson objectives written on the board now, and after explaining what needs to be done, i still get the same inane questions.

even at this private school, where they speak english all day (i.e. no language barrier between us), it seems that parents/culture at large has beaten these young people into passive and very non-attentive students.

there are many, many other problems with thai culture and education, but that's just one i dealt with in the past hour...