Are Red-Shirts Battling For Thaksin's Bt76 Bn Or Democracy?

[kissdani]

What is that issue of "ThaiFreedom" about?

And why that alone is enough to deserve to be smashed?

You must have a lot of hate inside you.

The only sense in which the red movement is for freedom is in that they want Thaksin free from punishment of his crimes. Why not smash a movement that has injustice as its goal?

Thank you for your explanation, it makes now much more sense to me.

[321niti123]

Based on last nights agreement with the military not to turn off PTV again and their actions late last night truning it off again, they just made it much more difficult to reach any kind of compromise. What good would it do if you can't trust the government to keep its word?

If you are able to reach an agreement will last night's actions be repeated?

There has to be a legitimate trust demonstrated. Machine guns aren't exactly a good way to do that.

I'm unaware of a specific agreement bewtween the reds and the government to NOT try and turn off PTV again. If such an agreement were made, I highly doubt the government was part of it. More than likely any agreement would have been between the local military and local red protesters at the Thaicom site.

Thus, I don't see how this situ calls into question the gubment's word.

Many other situs might, but this one, not so much.

Actually the decision was made by the head oif the thaicom station, i saw him on tv yesterday, he said he had do decide between getting caught by suthep or beaten up by protesters, and he chose to get caught. He said he would willingly turn it off again if the army could protect all his employees and and his sattelites throughout the country.

I think half the reds are for democracy and the other half just wants a better life thaksin or no thaksin. But by now i truely believe that abhisit is not an educated man who knows the true meaning of democracy-a gov't from the people, by the people, and for the people.

[xenomorph]

It would be interesting to know how many of the posters here are Thai.

How can we blame the Thais for ignorance and not being enlightened on how democracy should be created, when we selves right now are having exact the same disputes about this situation as the native Thais have?

I'll guess a majority of the posters here comes from Europe and US. Countries with a long tradition of democracy. But still there are elements among us here that doesn't have any problem with destroying a country, just because I want "my guy" to sit on the throne. Still the very same easily complains about how stupid the people of this country can be in many other situations. Amazing farangs...

Edited April 10, 2010 by xenomorph

[elcent]

It's a battle for and over the 76 billion Baht, nothing more, nothing less. If the red leaders would have negotiated further with PM Abhisit, the changes were very good for the reds to make points and a progress for the people's plea, things would look different. But now, everyting is probably lost.

[xenomorph]

Former colleague telling my last night the office maid believes she'll get 100,000 baht from Thaksin if he returns to Thailand as PM.

These are the rumours doing the rounds right now.

So it's all about the money then. From the very grass root people (like the maid) to the very highest. Seems to be a difficult country to establish a working democracy in then. How sad. There are poor people in this country. But they are not that poor, compared neighboring countries or elsewhere. I doubt there are so many poor people in the world that eat so much food as the poor in Thailand do. Any Thai here with ambitions, can either put up a working business or doing well in school. Even those from rural Issarn. Wonder were all this greed comes from.

.

Edited April 10, 2010 by xenomorph

[LuckyFive8888]

What if there isn't any money, at least in the quantities discussed? Yes some accounts were frozen, but consider this;

- Do the accounts actually add up to the amounts referenced, once the value of the paper assets are adjusted to account for the actual value of the assets today? Think about it. The value of Mr. Thaksin's assets were estimated at US$2.3 billion. It wasn't all sitting there in Thai baht notes was it?

- Mr. Thaksin was allowed to keep US$900 million, but are those assets really worth it?

I have used the $US reference because it conveys my point about there having been large drops in asset values, if you just consider what has happened with the $US. The Thaksin assets were "diversified". I have a hunch they are worth much less, except no one wants to admit to it. Its merely speculation on my part that the money isn't there. Thaksin refers to it because it suits his purpose. Mr. Korn was using it to "pay" for all the social programs promised. having a large pile of money to seize made it easier to villianize Mr. Thaksin and push frward with an unpopular and dangerous prosecution. What if both Thaksin and the government were playing a game of smoke and mirrors as it served their purposes to say the money was there? People have thrown up the Madoff ponzi scheme in an attempt to malign Thaksin, but that label may actually be an indication of things to come. A large part of the losses claimed under the Madoff fraud was predicated on lost interest and potential income. In simple language the money was never there and it certainly should not have been calculated at the inflated interest rates used by Madoff. Yes people lost lots of money, but if the loss includes the future vale, the time value, it really isn't a loss. That's why financial institution bonds and bankers errors and omissions insurance placements won't indemify for that type of loss: It is unquantifiable. A better indication is the Stanford scam where Sir Stanford (he did have an Antiguan nighthood ) inflated the value of assets to build his position.

I shudder to think of the consequences of what happens if my scenario is true. If the Reds are victorious and he doesn't have the cash to reward followers, then he's toast. If the government played with the numbers, then it is pulling a Greek budget move using non existent assets to pay for programs and more importantly would be shown to have manipulated the case even more than was alleged. Hopefully, I am wrong, but this being thailand, there is always a twisting money trail that leads into a dark swampy area filled with hungry serpents.

get real, do you really think that's all the money he got? what about the wife, brother-in-law, children, driver, maid? all these people are thaksin nominees.

[4223rhodes]

Remember that Thaksin in better times had less than 10% of the wealth of the richest Thai and far less than a list of other very wealthy men. A bit has been subtracted from this. Follow the money. If you are following Thaksin, you are just following chump change.

[Sisaketmike]

They are battling for Thaksin's Bt76 Bn. Usually in the past rebellions have started with young people at universities. Now we see older folks from the provinces. Why didn't the younger folks turn out. Add to that workers in BKK like motorcycle men and drivers. Another thing that's different, in the past there wasn't live footage for all to see. In the past people disappeared in confrontations and families never knew what happened to them. This time, it's on film, to be analyzed. That's why there are no fatalities. It isn't fair for a few thousand people to gather and demand elections. If that worked we would have elections every few months as groups of one opinion or another gathered and demanded elections. No can do! When I arrived in Thailand in the 80's if something happened you would just read about it the next day in the newspaper. I have to admire the news people on the scene reporting all day long for Thai TV channels.

I totally agree with you, it’s all about money. In the past people disappeared and their bones were later found in containers, but disappeared again before they could take them up.

I don’t really know many students who like the red problem, at least in a city people seem to be more educated and start to question the whole situation. Right now the reds are again at the city- hall in Sisaket, lots of cops, and their weird speeches. They tell you that they get paid to be there, that’s the insane part.

All foreigners who like to be in the news wearing red shirts should get kicked out immediately. What would be if Thais on a holiday in America wouldn’t be okay with for example Obama ( Si dam) and criticizing any foreign politicians?

[rogera]

Actually the decision was made by the head oif the thaicom station, i saw him on tv yesterday, he said he had do decide between getting caught by suthep or beaten up by protesters, and he chose to get caught. He said he would willingly turn it off again if the army could protect all his employees and and his sattelites throughout the country.

I think half the reds are for democracy and the other half just wants a better life thaksin or no thaksin. But by now i truely believe that abhisit is not an educated man who knows the true meaning of democracy-a gov't from the people, by the people, and for the people.

Your last statement just shows who is not educated and, in using phrases from the US constitution, you are obviously an American. It is very clear that the only objectives of the red shirt leaders is the return of Thaksin, the restoration of his money and a quashing of his conviction for abuse of power. Veera has already admitted that he has received very substantial sums of money from Thaksin and he cannot now reject him. This is a typical case of Thai "grengjai" and it also applies to all of the red leaders. It is also highly likely that the reported inflow of some 10 billion baht into Thailand a few weeks ago is being used to finance the current unrest and one can speculate that at least some of this money has found its way into the pockets of the red leadership.

Another point, a friend of mine is very close to a guy from her student days who is well known as a speaker and singer. This guy went on the stage at Rajprasong and spoke and sang some songs in praise of Thaksin. This guy told my friend that he was approached by Jatuporn to do this and if he did, he would receive 1 million baht. The day after appearing, he updated his bank book and the 1 million baht was in his account. He told my friend that he did not believe in Thaksin but the money was too good to turn down. This, I would suggest, is just an example of how the campaign is being financed.

The PSTV station is the only news channel that the typical red shirt watches as they have been brainwashed into believing that all other news channels distort the news against them. I have this directly from a Thaksin loyalist who once held a very high position in the police force. He and his wife only watch PSTV despite being well educated. They did very well when Thaksin was in power and long for the day he will return. I sincerely hope that he will be disappointed and told him so.

If these protests had been held in Europe or Australia, or the US for that matter, heads would have been broken a long time ago and the protest dispersed within a matter of hours. While you may not agree, these are countries where democracy has been in situ for many, many years. I would suspect that it is you who do not understand the word "democracy".

There was an excellent cartoon in the Bangkok Post about 10 days ago that showed a big bully, identified as a red shirt, standing over a couple of pink shirts. The caption read: "I'm the only one who is allowed to protest". That sums up the whole situation

Abhisit's patience has been beyond reproach. He has given the red shirts enough rope to hang themselves and the protesters will get the treatment that they should have received from the beginning.

Finally, while I believe that the majority of the rural poor do have real grievances against all past Thai governments, they really only have themselves to blame in that they have elected corrupt and venal politicians who gave them some money for their vote. Thaksin gave then peanuts from the Thai treasury while robbing the country blind during the five years he was in power. It is no accident that his wealth tripled during those five years.

[yoshiwara]

It's a battle for and over the 76 billion Baht, nothing more, nothing less. If the red leaders would have negotiated further with PM Abhisit, the changes were very good for the reds to make points and a progress for the people's plea, things would look different. But now, everyting is probably lost.

Actually the stakes are much more than that.

It is not just about the money.

The money is a way of keeping score.

It is about the power and the desire to be the top capitalist dog with full state power at his command.

If you offered Thaksin 76 billion if he went away, he wouldn't.

As far as he is concerned the jewel in the crown is control of the army.

Control the army and he is then untouchable.

Only with this perspective can you understand Thaksin's all-out attempt to seize power at this moment in time.

So he can put his mafia nominees into the army high command.

By the end of the year it is too late for him.

Fight for democracy.

I don't think so!

[TAWP]

Ramble ramble ramble....

Thaksin bad.......

ramble ramble ramble....

Thaksin bad.....

War on terror....

America bad....

Bombs.....

Ramble ramble ramble...

Do they have editors at the Nation who, like, actually edit?

I read it twice and have no idea what his point was.

Let's make it easy, just answer yes or no to these question:

- Do you think it would be a good thing if Thaksin came back into power?

- Do you think Thaksin is the best option amongst the current politicians?

- Would you prefer that the Red Shirts clearly distanced themselves from Thaksin?

- Do you think that the top leaders in the Red Shirts are pro-democracy and will be anti-Thaksin if he comes into power and does not live up to the ideal?

[TAWP]

Possibly it would be a big step forward if the bloody ridiculous self protective rule regarding the necessity of Bachelors degree (in any subject) was removed as a pre-requisite for being able to stand for election and to be able to enter parliament in the event of being elected,

IIRC it was removed in the new constitution. Thaksin and the Red Shirts wants the 1997 one back however, where this limitation most definitely existed...

[scorecard]

What's the point the reporter is trying to make in the original Nation report at the top of this thread?

Just a whole lot of disjointed bits and pieces!

[scorecard]

Let's make it easy, just answer yes or no to these question:

These are good relevant questions, but sorry I refuse to answer YES or NO, I suggest each of these questions needs a structured answer, here's my input:

- Do you think it would be a good thing if Thaksin came back into power?

No, I cannot see that thaksin has any future whatever in Thai policics, in fact I believe his return would mean a return to the Thai politics of the last several decades, and would re-empower the types of politicians which Thailand desperately and urgently needs to totally reject (I call them insincere leeches, thieves and thugs). Another salient point is that PM Abhisit and K. Korn are setting a new mould of the 'type' of people who are starting to join, people who are capable (and I don't mean that they should have a bachelor degree etc., - the world is full of highly clever and highly competent people who don't have advanced education) and sincere and honest.

Additionally, would you trust Thaksin? I centainly wouldn't. In his 'era' he had no hesitation to openly raid the wealth of Thailand on numerous occasions, to abuse power, including maasive an open nepotism to get many of his relatibves into numerous powerful positions. No hesitation to change the laws of Thailand for his personal benefit, and no hesitation to order/supervise the on sight muder of 2,500 fellow Thais without any recourse to justice. And had no hesitation to manipulate the poor for his own tricky benefit and no hesitation to deliberately give them false hope as part of his unscrupulous tricks. A man with absolutely no morals.

- Do you think Thaksin is the best option amongst the current politicians?

!. Refer to my answer above.

2. The best option is without any doubt Khun Abhisit accompanied by Khun Korn.

- Do you think that the top leaders in the Red Shirts are pro-democracy and will be anti-Thaksin if he comes into power and does not live up to the ideal?

There are no really sincere people in the red shirt leaders group, they are a bunch of thugs trying to create a smokescreen (and not a very good one) over their real purpose; a pardon for thaksin, and a return to a very wanting constitution which makes vote buying easy. They claim to be the champions of democracy but they want to play games with and totally disrespect justice.

In terms of being real democracy fighters, this is a total joke, none of them has ever given a speech, or a presentation which talks in depth about the benefits of democracy, the pillars of demorcay etc etc. And they ave no hesitation to stand up on stage and tell blatant lies. They have had numerous opportunities to make such presentation to large rallies, they din't talk about democracy at all, they just spewed out hatred without substantive logic or reasonsing. In fact they don't have any logic to support their hatred speeches). They set up 495 'democracy schools' in Essan etc., and there is now evidence that there were no lessons whatever of the structure, the building, the maintaining of quality democracy, just more hatred speeches.

In terms of the red shirt leaders being anti-thaksin, well interesting point. If thaksin ignored them (if he ever gained power) then I suspect they would turn against him very strongly and very quickly, they want a return on their sizeable investment.

But would that mean they would become a stand alone powerful and credible group or movement? NO. they have set their own mould, nothing more than bought rallies (which one could assume would dry up as soon as teh slush funds dry up, and their own ability to create other sizeable slush funds is very doubtful, and they have no credible and specific manifesto, and they have developed a reputation for changing their purpose numerous times.

Edited April 10, 2010 by scorecard

[tomyummer]

Let's make it easy, just answer yes or no to these question:

These are good relevant questions, but sorry I refuse to answer YES or NO, I suggest each of these questions needs a structured answer, here's my input:

- Do you think it would be a good thing if Thaksin came back into power?

No, I cannot see that thaksin has any future whatever in Thai policics, in fact I believe his return would mean a return to the Thai politics of the last several decades, and would re-empower the types of politicians which Thailand desperately and urgently needs to totally reject (I call them insincere leeches, thieves and thugs). Another salient point is that PM Abhisit and K. Korn are setting a new mould of the 'type' of people who are starting to join, people who are capable (and I don't mean that they should have a bachelor degree etc., - the world is full of highly clever and highly competent people who don't have advanced education) and sincere and honest.

Additionally, would you trust Thaksin? I centainly wouldn't. In his 'era' he had no hesitation to openly raid the wealth of Thailand on numerous occasions, to abuse power, including maasive an open nepotism to get many of his relatibves into numerous powerful positions. No hesitation to change the laws of Thailand for his personal benefit, and no hesitation to order/supervise the on sight muder of 2,500 fellow Thais without any recourse to justice. And had no hesitation to manipulate the poor for his own tricky benefit and no hesitation to deliberately give them false hope as part of his unscrupulous tricks. A man with absolutely no morals.

- Do you think Thaksin is the best option amongst the current politicians?

!. Refer to my answer above.

2. The best option is without any doubt Khun Abhisit accompanied by Khun Korn.

- Do you think that the top leaders in the Red Shirts are pro-democracy and will be anti-Thaksin if he comes into power and does not live up to the ideal?

There are no really sincere people in the red shirt leaders group, they are a bunch of thugs trying to create a smokescreen (and not a very good one) over their real purpose; a pardon for thaksin, and a return to a very wanting constitution which makes vote buying easy. They claim to be the champions of democracy but they want to play games with and totally disrespect justice.

In terms of being real democracy fighters, this is a total joke, none of them has ever given a speech, or a presentation which talks in depth about the benefits of democracy, the pillars of demorcay etc etc. And they ave no hesitation to stand up on stage and tell blatant lies. They have had numerous opportunities to make such presentation to large rallies, they din't talk about democracy at all, they just spewed out hatred without substantive logic or reasonsing. In fact they don't have any logic to support their hatred speeches). They set up 495 'democracy schools' in Essan etc., and there is now evidence that there were no lessons whatever of the structure, the building, the maintaining of quality democracy, just more hatred speeches.

In terms of the red shirt leaders being anti-thaksin, well interesting point. If thaksin ignored them (if he ever gained power) then I suspect they would turn against him very strongly and very quickly, they want a return on their sizeable investment.

But would that mean they would become a stand alone powerful and credible group or movement? NO. they have set their own mould, nothing more than bought rallies (which one could assume would dry up as soon as teh slush funds dry up, and their own ability to create other sizeable slush funds is very doubtful, and they have no credible and specific manifesto, and they have developed a reputation for changing their purpose numerous times.

Wow. Pretty much sums it up for me. Well stated. 'Scorecard' if you're Thai, please run for office.

[NanLaew]

Sir,

First the 'former colleagues office maid' and now your wife.

Please consider BOTH your legs pulled.

Best regards,

NL

Are you, sir, calling me a liar?

I'm reporting what I've been told, and I have no reason to believe they are lying? What would be the motivation?

Never even hinted that you may be telling porkies; for the same reasons you believe your former colleague and wife.

Just speculating that you (and your former colleague and wife) may be victims of a porkie.

[NanLaew]

They set up 495 'democracy schools' in Essan etc., and there is now evidence that there were no lessons whatever of the structure, the building, the maintaining of quality democracy, just more hatred speeches.

Can you point out where I can get some facts on these 'schools', where they are located, syllabuses, etc.?

Thanks

NL

[Insight]

Sir,

First the 'former colleagues office maid' and now your wife.

Please consider BOTH your legs pulled.

Best regards,

NL

Are you, sir, calling me a liar?

I'm reporting what I've been told, and I have no reason to believe they are lying? What would be the motivation?

Never even hinted that you may be telling porkies; for the same reasons you believe your former colleague and wife.

Just speculating that you (and your former colleague and wife) may be victims of a porkie.

Apologies NanLaew, my tone was a bit hard. As mentioned though - no indication by either party of a fib.

[NanLaew]

...and my house-maid told me that if the Reds win, all Farangs will be given one month notice to leave Thailand...

I had an awesome maid when I first came to Thailand 30 years ago. Spotless house, laundry always done, never ran out of cooking and cleaning stuff. Even would move the fridge and stove one a month to get all that muck that builds up there cleaned out.

Unfortunately her only minus was also a tendency to spout <deleted>.

Is yours good or just a bit of a looker?

[NanLaew]

Sir,

First the 'former colleagues office maid' and now your wife.

Please consider BOTH your legs pulled.

Best regards,

NL

Are you, sir, calling me a liar?

I'm reporting what I've been told, and I have no reason to believe they are lying? What would be the motivation?

Never even hinted that you may be telling porkies; for the same reasons you believe your former colleague and wife.

Just speculating that you (and your former colleague and wife) may be victims of a porkie.

Apologies NanLaew, my tone was a bit hard. As mentioned though - no indication by either party of a fib.

No worries... it is just a forum after all. It's not a case of fibbing as I see it. More of a case of possibly believing a fib or even wanting to believe one because it fits ones own take on things. There's all sorts of half truths and many more total untruths swirling around this particular rodeo. With the sad state of the media here, one has to pick apart the carcasses to find any glimmer of truth... it's almost as bad as Nigeria in that regard.

[rogera]

Let's make it easy, just answer yes or no to these question:

These are good relevant questions, but sorry I refuse to answer YES or NO, I suggest each of these questions needs a structured answer, here's my input:

- Do you think it would be a good thing if Thaksin came back into power?

No, I cannot see that thaksin has any future whatever in Thai policics, in fact I believe his return would mean a return to the Thai politics of the last several decades, and would re-empower the types of politicians which Thailand desperately and urgently needs to totally reject (I call them insincere leeches, thieves and thugs). Another salient point is that PM Abhisit and K. Korn are setting a new mould of the 'type' of people who are starting to join, people who are capable (and I don't mean that they should have a bachelor degree etc., - the world is full of highly clever and highly competent people who don't have advanced education) and sincere and honest.

Additionally, would you trust Thaksin? I centainly wouldn't. In his 'era' he had no hesitation to openly raid the wealth of Thailand on numerous occasions, to abuse power, including maasive an open nepotism to get many of his relatibves into numerous powerful positions. No hesitation to change the laws of Thailand for his personal benefit, and no hesitation to order/supervise the on sight muder of 2,500 fellow Thais without any recourse to justice. And had no hesitation to manipulate the poor for his own tricky benefit and no hesitation to deliberately give them false hope as part of his unscrupulous tricks. A man with absolutely no morals.

- Do you think Thaksin is the best option amongst the current politicians?

!. Refer to my answer above.

2. The best option is without any doubt Khun Abhisit accompanied by Khun Korn.

- Do you think that the top leaders in the Red Shirts are pro-democracy and will be anti-Thaksin if he comes into power and does not live up to the ideal?

There are no really sincere people in the red shirt leaders group, they are a bunch of thugs trying to create a smokescreen (and not a very good one) over their real purpose; a pardon for thaksin, and a return to a very wanting constitution which makes vote buying easy. They claim to be the champions of democracy but they want to play games with and totally disrespect justice.

In terms of being real democracy fighters, this is a total joke, none of them has ever given a speech, or a presentation which talks in depth about the benefits of democracy, the pillars of demorcay etc etc. And they ave no hesitation to stand up on stage and tell blatant lies. They have had numerous opportunities to make such presentation to large rallies, they din't talk about democracy at all, they just spewed out hatred without substantive logic or reasonsing. In fact they don't have any logic to support their hatred speeches). They set up 495 'democracy schools' in Essan etc., and there is now evidence that there were no lessons whatever of the structure, the building, the maintaining of quality democracy, just more hatred speeches.

In terms of the red shirt leaders being anti-thaksin, well interesting point. If thaksin ignored them (if he ever gained power) then I suspect they would turn against him very strongly and very quickly, they want a return on their sizeable investment.

But would that mean they would become a stand alone powerful and credible group or movement? NO. they have set their own mould, nothing more than bought rallies (which one could assume would dry up as soon as teh slush funds dry up, and their own ability to create other sizeable slush funds is very doubtful, and they have no credible and specific manifesto, and they have developed a reputation for changing their purpose numerous times.

[/unquote]

What a wonderful response to the questions asked. My sentiments exactly. Thaksin's return would be an absolute and unmitigated disaster for Thailand. Having said that, I feel that the red shirts, or the remnants of it, without Thaksin and his money and baggage, do have some future in the Thai political process and the sooner that the current political elite come to terms with that reality the sooner we will have a normal political situation. The leaders of the red shirts have tasted political power and they will not easily give it up unless they are included in the political process. Part of that process should be the recognition that Thaksin can never return to power and that the process has to move forward without him. The important part is to exclude the extremist fringe like Weng (an out-and-out Communist), Khittiya, (a thug), Panlop (an opportunist if ever there was one) and those lesser lights who have advocated anarchy. Unfortunately, they will still have to deal with Veera, Jatuporn and Nuttawut despite the fact that they are deeply obligated to Thaksin. These three will just have to learn that Thaksin's time is long gone and join in the reconciliation process for the betterment of Thai society as a whole. My fervent hope that this will occur soon after the current unrest is over. My belief is that it is not without possibility that either Jatuporn or Nuttawut will emerge at some time in the future a Prime Minister who will lead the country on to greater things, provided of course they have learned the lessons of the current situation and have ditched the baggage that they inherited from their obligation to Thaksin. Both are very talented speakers and are highly intelligent people who have been mesmerised by Thakin's money and projection of personal power. Hopefully they will move beyond personal aggrandisement, mature as responsible politicians and realise that Thailand's future is bound, not only to the region, but to the world as a whole and can and will fulfill it's obligations to the world overall.

After the current situation is over, the government should engage again with Veera, Jatuporn and Nuttawut, making it clear that Thaksin's future is long gone, to try to bridge the gap between them and to offer them some kind of concession that will help them to save some face so that they are not seen as having totally surrendered their cause. Dissolution of parliament should not be part of any concession. Part of the concession could be the dropping of criminal charges against them. Any failure by these three to accept these conditions should mean that the full force of the law will be applied against them. If the government can do this successfully, then I can see them completing their term and having the next election in late 2011. What wonders this will do for Thailand, the economy, the tourism industry, the foreign investment climate and so on. If all this can be achieved, then Thailand will resume its rightful place as one of the leading countries in SE Asia and in the Far East as a whole.

Finally, Anand Panyarachan set the standard of political behavior when he was PM twice in the 1990's. Abhisit has followed this standard, despite having unsavoury characters in his cabinet and has achieved a recognition in the international arena for his integrity, ability and intelligence that no Prime Minister has achieved since Anand's era. His time is just coming when he will develop into a person of stature and enter Thai history as a PM who saved Thailand from disaster. Thailand needs people like him, Korn, Jurin and the other young bloods in the Democratic party to carry Thailand into the future with confidence and aplomb.

[JohnLeech]

They set up 495 'democracy schools' in Essan etc., and there is now evidence that there were no lessons whatever of the structure, the building, the maintaining of quality democracy, just more hatred speeches.

Can you point out where I can get some facts on these 'schools', where they are located, syllabuses, etc.?

Thanks

NL

Somehow I think the answer (if any) will be "No I can't". The only "democracy schools" are a dozen UDD political rallies that have taken place for one day for adults (aged from 30 to 70) that happened to be held in school/college halls in Issan.

Wherever it originated from (and I can't find any such reference in either English or Thai), this is yet another total distortion of the facts.

[scorecard]

They set up 495 'democracy schools' in Essan etc., and there is now evidence that there were no lessons whatever of the structure, the building, the maintaining of quality democracy, just more hatred speeches.

Can you point out where I can get some facts on these 'schools', where they are located, syllabuses, etc.?

Thanks

NL

They were billed by the udd as 'democracy schools' but in fact:

- They have no sylabbus at all, none!

- No materials at all, none!

Several posters on this forum have mentioned that their Thai wives went once or twice and didn't return because 'school' was nothing more than sit and listen to taped re-runs of hate speeches.

I also read on another forum that in many villages the local were ordered (read intimiated) to attend 'democracy school'.

It's also now well established that the udd/red shirt leaders / sub leaders have never ever in any forum, in any speech, in any location ever given a structured presentation about:

- Why democracy? The benefits of democracy

- The pillars of democracy

- The absolute need for total respect for the law / respect for freedom of sppech without intimidation etc.

- The factors which need to be protected at all costs

- The process / the needed punishment for mistreating the process

- The need to have laws and regualtions whic prohibit one person/one group from gaining unchallengabel power etc.

- The need for parties with a published manifesto

- The need for public debate without intimidation, and more...

Many of my Thai colleagues say that a very large percentage of the Essan rural poor (who are entitled to be heard and entitled to be respected) have no understanding whatever of what democracy means and have been manipuated into believing that:

- 'Thaksin is the champion of democracy' (trying to instill the belief that the word democrcay is something like the word savior. (Thaksin is democracy = thaksin (alone) is the savior.)

[scorecard]

These are good relevant questions, but sorry I refuse to answer YES or NO, I suggest each of these questions needs a structured answer, here's my input:

- Do you think it would be a good thing if Thaksin came back into power?

No, I cannot see that thaksin has any future whatever in Thai policics, in fact I believe his return would mean a return to the Thai politics of the last several decades, and would re-empower the types of politicians which Thailand desperately and urgently needs to totally reject (I call them insincere leeches, thieves and thugs). Another salient point is that PM Abhisit and K. Korn are setting a new mould of the 'type' of people who are starting to join, people who are capable (and I don't mean that they should have a bachelor degree etc., - the world is full of highly clever and highly competent people who don't have advanced education) and sincere and honest.

Additionally, would you trust Thaksin? I centainly wouldn't. In his 'era' he had no hesitation to openly raid the wealth of Thailand on numerous occasions, to abuse power, including maasive an open nepotism to get many of his relatibves into numerous powerful positions. No hesitation to change the laws of Thailand for his personal benefit, and no hesitation to order/supervise the on sight muder of 2,500 fellow Thais without any recourse to justice. And had no hesitation to manipulate the poor for his own tricky benefit and no hesitation to deliberately give them false hope as part of his unscrupulous tricks. A man with absolutely no morals.

- Do you think Thaksin is the best option amongst the current politicians?

!. Refer to my answer above.

2. The best option is without any doubt Khun Abhisit accompanied by Khun Korn.

- Do you think that the top leaders in the Red Shirts are pro-democracy and will be anti-Thaksin if he comes into power and does not live up to the ideal?

There are no really sincere people in the red shirt leaders group, they are a bunch of thugs trying to create a smokescreen (and not a very good one) over their real purpose; a pardon for thaksin, and a return to a very wanting constitution which makes vote buying easy. They claim to be the champions of democracy but they want to play games with and totally disrespect justice.

In terms of being real democracy fighters, this is a total joke, none of them has ever given a speech, or a presentation which talks in depth about the benefits of democracy, the pillars of demorcay etc etc. And they ave no hesitation to stand up on stage and tell blatant lies. They have had numerous opportunities to make such presentation to large rallies, they din't talk about democracy at all, they just spewed out hatred without substantive logic or reasonsing. In fact they don't have any logic to support their hatred speeches). They set up 495 'democracy schools' in Essan etc., and there is now evidence that there were no lessons whatever of the structure, the building, the maintaining of quality democracy, just more hatred speeches.

In terms of the red shirt leaders being anti-thaksin, well interesting point. If thaksin ignored them (if he ever gained power) then I suspect they would turn against him very strongly and very quickly, they want a return on their sizeable investment.

But would that mean they would become a stand alone powerful and credible group or movement? NO. they have set their own mould, nothing more than bought rallies (which one could assume would dry up as soon as teh slush funds dry up, and their own ability to create other sizeable slush funds is very doubtful, and they have no credible and specific manifesto, and they have developed a reputation for changing their purpose numerous times.

What a wonderful response to the questions asked. My sentiments exactly. Thaksin's return would be an absolute and unmitigated disaster for Thailand. Having said that, I feel that the red shirts, or the remnants of it, without Thaksin and his money and baggage, do have some future in the Thai political process and the sooner that the current political elite come to terms with that reality the sooner we will have a normal political situation. The leaders of the red shirts have tasted political power and they will not easily give it up unless they are included in the political process. Part of that process should be the recognition that Thaksin can never return to power and that the process has to move forward without him. The important part is to exclude the extremist fringe like Weng (an out-and-out Communist), Khittiya, (a thug), Panlop (an opportunist if ever there was one) and those lesser lights who have advocated anarchy. Unfortunately, they will still have to deal with Veera, Jatuporn and Nuttawut despite the fact that they are deeply obligated to Thaksin. These three will just have to learn that Thaksin's time is long gone and join in the reconciliation process for the betterment of Thai society as a whole. My fervent hope that this will occur soon after the current unrest is over. My belief is that it is not without possibility that either Jatuporn or Nuttawut will emerge at some time in the future a Prime Minister who will lead the country on to greater things, provided of course they have learned the lessons of the current situation and have ditched the baggage that they inherited from their obligation to Thaksin. Both are very talented speakers and are highly intelligent people who have been mesmerised by Thakin's money and projection of personal power. Hopefully they will move beyond personal aggrandisement, mature as responsible politicians and realise that Thailand's future is bound, not only to the region, but to the world as a whole and can and will fulfill it's obligations to the world overall.

After the current situation is over, the government should engage again with Veera, Jatuporn and Nuttawut, making it clear that Thaksin's future is long gone, to try to bridge the gap between them and to offer them some kind of concession that will help them to save some face so that they are not seen as having totally surrendered their cause. Dissolution of parliament should not be part of any concession. Part of the concession could be the dropping of criminal charges against them. Any failure by these three to accept these conditions should mean that the full force of the law will be applied against them. If the government can do this successfully, then I can see them completing their term and having the next election in late 2011. What wonders this will do for Thailand, the economy, the tourism industry, the foreign investment climate and so on. If all this can be achieved, then Thailand will resume its rightful place as one of the leading countries in SE Asia and in the Far East as a whole.

Finally, Anand Panyarachan set the standard of political behavior when he was PM twice in the 1990's. Abhisit has followed this standard, despite having unsavoury characters in his cabinet and has achieved a recognition in the international arena for his integrity, ability and intelligence that no Prime Minister has achieved since Anand's era. His time is just coming when he will develop into a person of stature and enter Thai history as a PM who saved Thailand from disaster. Thailand needs people like him, Korn, Jurin and the other young bloods in the Democratic party to carry Thailand into the future with confidence and aplomb.

I certainlyt agree with your points about:

- Khun Anand P. set a wonderful standard...

- Khun Abhisit (and I also give recognition to Khun Korn) has already started to build a solid and credible reputation and I also believe that's part of the reason why thaksin/the reds have gone for broke right now. They realize that Abhisit is rising fast and he's totally clean, and a quick anslysis of what he's already put in place is impressive (I also suggest that his achievements have received little press), and before long thaksins screams will be unheard and he'll go into oblivion.

A little longer term I see:

- Abhsit and korns achievemnts and image attracting many more capable and sincere Thai people into his party (and there are many of them available, but in the past they stayed well away from politics because they didn't want to be associated with gangs of leeches and thieves)

- And at the same time the old guard of the democrats and the other parties will become unwanted and irrelevant, mostly because the public at large see a new brand of politician and stop voting for the old boys clubs.

- Abhisit will no longer have to tread a continuous minefield to try to make progress.

- Abhisit will ultimately go down in history as the statesman who took Thailand into a new political era.

On the other hand persoanlly I don't see any future at all for the likes of jatuporn, veera, arisman, weng, etc. I suggest in the near future they will be sen for what they are - thaksin stooges and nothing more. Jatuporn has deliberately lied in parliamnet a number of times, he deliberately played a doctored tape in parliament. Does Thailand realy want or need this type of person running the country? No! They scream about 'double standards' but in reality they are the 'role models' themselves of 'double standards'.

On the other hand, is there a need for a credible democracy movement which plays a part to push for a better sharing of the wealth for all Thais, push for a much higher quality of education available to all Thais regardless of location, family status or whatever, and therefore much better opportunities for all Thais to have a good quality of life, equal justice etc? YES! And on all of those points I invite all to take a good look at what the abhisit and korn team have already done towards exactly these ends.

But IMHO none of the red shirt leaders have the capability or the values needed to build or lead a democracy movement. Absolutely NO! I doubt in fact that jatuporn and his ilk will ever shed the negative baggage they have earned for themselves by their association with a murky meglomaniac. And lets' not forget they have had hundreds of opportunities in the last couple of years to make credible structured presentations about the pillars / the process etc., of democracy, but not one of them, has ever given such a presentation.

Maybe I'm just pesomistic but I still have some solid thoughts in the back of my mind that jatuporn and his buddies are just doing all of this for a very sizeable pay packet from the paymaster. I suggest they will get a very big payout even for taking the rallies etc., as far as they have.

[JohnLeech]

Finally, Anand Panyarachan set the standard of political behavior when he was PM twice in the 1990's. Abhisit has followed this standard, despite having unsavoury characters in his cabinet .....

In what possible way?

Apart from a similar education in England they have nothing in common whatsoever.

Anand was a career diplomat and Ambassador before becoming a successful and respected businessman and being asked to form a government.

Abhisit has only ever been a politician and an MP, with no other experience in any area locally or internationally.

Anand hand-picked his cabinet, despite presure from the military who had put him in office, to make it one of the most respected and capable Thailand has ever had.

Abhisit's cabinet is "unsavoury" at best, with input from Newin Chidchob controlling the swing vote despite being banned from politics and a foreign minister who advocated and led the yellow-shirted seizure of Suvarnhabumi airport and who is still the subject of an un-enforced arrest warrant.

Anand introduced many reforms, including re-structuring the tax system, introducing VAT, and opening investment regulations locally and overseas.

Abhisit has done nothing wrong by doing nothing at all. His only successful policies, economically, in education, and in improving medical cover, are simply continuations of the opposition's existing policies, and the policy his government is most remembered for is labelling a dozen of Thailand's more popular herbs and spices as dangerous goods.

Anand concentrated on improving relations with Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia and successfully established AFTA.

Abhisit has achieved nothing in the field of improving relations with any of Thailand's neighbours.

Anand's personal honesty and that of his government was never challenged in any way at the time or later.

Abhisit's government has had numerous accusations of corruption made against it, particularly concerning the more vulnerable such as subsistence farmers (sub-standard fertiliser) and school-children (tainted school milk). His own declared finances are questionable, as his declared assets and his salary are insufficient to cover even his sons' education at Eton and Winchester.

After leaving the political stage Anand went on to be an ambassador for UNICEF and senior advisor to Kofi Annan and he remained popular and respected by all levels of Thai society. Somehow I cannot see Abhisit following his standards later any more than he does now - unfortunately he is all form but no substance and he is incapable of uniting the country.

[BigC]

fine the reds 1000 baht per day oncce arrested. that will hiss them off. it will also mean that taksin is paying the new govement ha ha

[JohnLeech]

They were billed by the udd as 'democracy schools' but in fact:

- They have no sylabbus at all, none!

- No materials at all, none!

Billed where? This is simply and so obviously spin by one side that I find it hard to believe you or anyone else can take it seriousy. They were political meetings that lasted one day, they were not schools. All participants were actually given a 67 page book covering most of the points you mention, but obviously these were written solely from the UDD point of view. That is what political parties do!

It's also now well established that the udd/red shirt leaders / sub leaders have never ever in any forum, in any speech, in any location ever given a structured presentation about:

- Why democracy? The benefits of democracy

- The pillars of democracy

- The absolute need for total respect for the law / respect for freedom of sppech without intimidation etc.

- The factors which need to be protected at all costs

- The process / the needed punishment for mistreating the process

- The need to have laws and regualtions whic prohibit one person/one group from gaining unchallengabel power etc.

- The need for parties with a published manifesto

- The need for public debate without intimidation, and more...

It may or may not be "well established", but has either side done this? Has Abhisit?

Many of my Thai colleagues say that a very large percentage of the Essan rural poor (who are entitled to be heard and entitled to be respected) have no understanding whatever of what democracy means and have been manipuated into believing that:

- 'Thaksin is the champion of democracy' (trying to instill the belief that the word democrcay is something like the word savior. (Thaksin is democracy = thaksin (alone) is the savior.)

So what? Your "Thai colleagues" sound rather like the yellow-shirts who said that the "Essan rural poor" should be "heard" and be "entitled to be respected", but not quite so much as their own side (the urban rich)! Politicians "manipulate" people, rich and poor, urban and rural, educated and illiterate - that is how they get elected.

There are no really sincere people in the XXXXX shirt leaders group .... a return to a very wanting constitution which makes vote buying easy. They claim to be the champions of democracy but they want to play games with and totally disrespect justice.

In terms of being real democracy fighters, this is a total joke, none of them has ever given a speech, or a presentation which talks in depth about the benefits of democracy, the pillars of demorcay etc etc. And they ave no hesitation to stand up on stage and tell blatant lies. They have had numerous opportunities to make such presentation to large rallies, they din't talk about democracy at all, they just spewed out hatred without substantive logic or reasonsing. In fact they don't have any logic to support their hatred speeches.....

Sorry, I forgot - which group were we talking about? I really can't tell.

[MellowYellow]

Ramble ramble ramble....

Thaksin bad.......

ramble ramble ramble....

Thaksin bad.....

War on terror....

America bad....

Bombs.....

Ramble ramble ramble...

Do they have editors at the Nation who, like, actually edit?

I read it twice and have no idea what his point was.

Let's make it easy, just answer yes or no to these question:

- Do you think it would be a good thing if Thaksin came back into power?

- Do you think Thaksin is the best option amongst the current politicians?

- Would you prefer that the Red Shirts clearly distanced themselves from Thaksin?

- Do you think that the top leaders in the Red Shirts are pro-democracy and will be anti-Thaksin if he comes into power and does not live up to the ideal?

Does "Let's make it easy" translate to "I can interrogate you" for you?

It sounds an aweful lot like that to me.

BTW all asked and answered already.

NO

NO

YES

maybe, maybe/no.

Now, when I ask you questions will you give me answers?

Or will you send in you propaganda dogs to spin lies and revisionist history.

Do you think it is a good thing that the military and elites have power now?

Do you think Generals and super rich meglomaniacs (Who aren't Thaksin) are the best option amongst politicians now?

Do you prefer if Abhisit distanced himself from his power brokers, the military and yellow elite?

Do you think the current government can claim any serious legitimacy in being pro democratic when they have reached power thru military, judicial and yellow mob action with a little bit of election thrown in?

Do you think the Democrats will ever go anti-Thaksin if he never divorces himself from military and elite backing?

[Harcourt]

I think the Thais are battling for the right-wing royalist army's trillions or at least trying to get them to stop bleeding the country dry. Thaksin's billions don't really amount to crap when you compare it against the golden camouflage glow than controls the wealth and lives of all Thais. Just a thought.

Very few Thais will talk about whats going on in my garden.

I have sunflowers and roses. Most of the roses, like all of the sunflowers, love the sun.....they revere the sun. But many of the roses have deep roots in the soil and can get by without too much sunlight.

Some of the roses indeed aspire to be sun-loving sunflowers....but they have serious doubts about tomorrow; when the new sun rises tomorrow, will it be as bright and warm as today's sun? Many roses doubt it, and thus do not want to become sunflowers that rely entirely on the sun.

[MellowYellow]

Ramble ramble ramble....

Thaksin bad.......

ramble ramble ramble....

Thaksin bad.....

War on terror....

America bad....

Bombs.....

Ramble ramble ramble...

Do they have editors at the Nation who, like, actually edit?

I read it twice and have no idea what his point was.

Let's make it easy, just answer yes or no to these question:

- Do you think it would be a good thing if Thaksin came back into power?

- Do you think Thaksin is the best option amongst the current politicians?

- Would you prefer that the Red Shirts clearly distanced themselves from Thaksin?

- Do you think that the top leaders in the Red Shirts are pro-democracy and will be anti-Thaksin if he comes into power and does not live up to the ideal?

Does "Let's make it easy" translate to "I can interrogate you" for you?

It sounds an aweful lot like that to me.

BTW all asked and answered already.

NO

NO

YES

maybe, maybe/no.

Now, when I ask you questions will you give me answers?

Or will you send in you propaganda dogs to spin lies and revisionist history.

Do you think it is a good thing that the military and elites have power now?

Do you think Generals and super rich meglomaniacs (Who aren't Thaksin) are the best option amongst politicians now?

Do you prefer if Abhisit distanced himself from his power brokers, the military and yellow elite?

Do you think the current government can claim any serious legitimacy in being pro democratic when they have reached power thru military, judicial and yellow mob action with a little bit of election thrown in?

Do you think the Democrats will ever go anti-Thaksin if he never divorces himself from military and elite backing?

too late to edit. Meant to say

Do you think the Democrats will ever go anti-Abhisit if he never divorces himself from military and elite backing?