Red-Shirts Blamed For Gunfights, Bomb Attacks

[hanuman1]

In the videos I have seen the guys in black can move freely around the reds indicating they are part of the movement.

I think this is wrong. If you are a non-violent, non-armed redshirt walking around in that environment and you see someone - dressed in fuscia and dayglow green for all it matters - brandishing a large automatic combat rifle I really don't think your first thought is going to be to ask him to leave.

To suggest that all red-shirts actively agreed to have these people among their numbers is too far-fetched. So being 'part of the movement' is only true in the broadest possible sense.

Edited April 13, 2010 by hanuman1

[hpl]

^if true obviously military was leaking intel to the 3rd party.

There were early reports of military intel being leaked. This doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Loads of soldiers have redshirt sympathies.

and one has the unique position of being both a red shirt leader and have connections within military intel...

the disturbed Sae Daeng.

[JohnLeech]

After reading this short article: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/ISOC-...o-30127130.html I have reached a tentative conclusion, as follows:

The deadly situation that unfolded Saturday night at the Democracy Monument was not a routine confrontation that spontaneously spun out of control. …. someone put together a "hunter-killer" team to stalk a specific target - that being Army Colonel Romklao … The team deployed into positions - some in overwatch …. in the overwatch group was one or more "spotters - using laser pointers to designate targets for an M79 grenadier.

They basically set up an ambush assassination, using the protest for cover

….but he was the actual target of the entire operation. Everything else was just collateral damage, incidental to this targeted "hit".

In the above hypothesis, I define the Colonel as the target - but the target may have been the entire Command Group of this regiment.

There is really no other good explanation for why anyone would be using laser pointers to designate targets within the military force…..

I wonder what the Thai Amy brass is thinking right now.

I have no idea what the "Thai Army brass is thinking", but anyone with any operational military experience would be thinking that you, along with most of those hypothesising here, have no idea what you are talking about. The idea that anyone would use an M79 to "assassinate" an individual is laughable under normal circumstances; to suggest that a group would do so at night, in poor visibility, when live rounds were being fired and could have been fired at the target without excessive suspicion being aroused, makes it simply ludicrous.

An M79 is an innacurate, relatively short range weapon with a very distinctive report at the best of times and it would not, under any circumstances, be used as the weapon of choice to assassinate someone.

The initial reports of this incident were that the grenade hit the tent in which the officers were, then exploded (either on the tent or on the ground); an initial report was that it was fired by accident by one of the 2 Div soldiers. While there is nothing to support this or any other wild theory, at least it has more plausibility than many of the other wild "hypotheses" being put forward, although I doubt if anyone will be coming forward toadmit that they had a negligent discharge which killed one of their senior officers.

Speculating about what the future holds is one thing; speculating about this sort of incident is something else (and I won't say what here in case I get my wrist slapped!).

Edited April 13, 2010 by JohnLeech

[hpl]

^or the 3rd party could be on the Thai military side.

The read leaders have already confirmed that it was a third party on their side

Do you not comprehend that the people the red leaders have openly said were on their side are the "ronin warriors" or the "black warriors"? The armed people wearing black amongst the red shirt demonstrators? NOT the snipers/people who shot the M79 grenade into the military camp.

They are one in the same.

The Ronin warriors, trained by red shirt Sae Daeng, were the snipers/grenade launchers.

Opportunity, proper training, motivation, etc.

[mrparanoid]

The owner of those pics said that he took this shot while the red guard was seizing weapons from snipper..But you used these pics to discredit them all, how could you do this to other Thais?

With all due respect, that's some pretty weak "spin".

As you say, a weak after-the-fact attempt to distance the Ronin black shirts from the red shirts. It fails.

The weakest thing of all is that you guys after several days and incomprehensible amounts of input from countless blogs, newspapers, forums and comments posted even on this forum.. quoting Seh Dang openly saying they have "black warriors" to protect them, can not seem to understand that the red shirts are not even trying distance themselves from these black shirts. They are openly saying that they are the black warriors are there to help the reds in a worst case scenario. Seh Daeng has even said so in an interview. And the guy in the photo HAS A RED SHIRT GUARD SIGN ON HIS JACKET!!!! The younger one has GUARD written ALL OVER THE BACK OF HIS SHIRT. And what professional soldier/killer in his right mind would be carrying 3-4 automatic rifles to a fight when he could carry 1 and tons of ammo clips in stead. And why take out the clips? And why parade throught the street so everyone can see you if you have something to hide? You guys make no sense.

[britmaveric]

Indeed the actual snipers have not been seen. The forum members think these clowns in black actually are the snipers. Sorry to burst their bubble, but those lads would not be in any uniform and would just simply blend into the crowd.

Edited April 13, 2010 by britmaveric

[mrparanoid]

^or the 3rd party could be on the Thai military side.

The read leaders have already confirmed that it was a third party on their side

Do you not comprehend that the people the red leaders have openly said were on their side are the "ronin warriors" or the "black warriors"? The armed people wearing black amongst the red shirt demonstrators? NOT the snipers/people who shot the M79 grenade into the military camp.

They are one in the same.

The Ronin warriors, trained by red shirt Sae Daeng, were the snipers/grenade launchers.

Opportunity, proper training, motivation, etc.

It might turn out that whoever the snipers are.. it could be the "black warriors" / "ronin warriors" or it could not be. No one knows. But so far Seh Daeng has not said that it is. Unlike what you are all pretending. And if it one and the same people, then they most likely the ทหารพราน.. (Tahan Phran) and are a part of the Royal Thai Army. Then what?

[way2muchcoffee]

In the videos I have seen the guys in black can move freely around the reds indicating they are part of the movement.

I think this is wrong. If you are a non-violent, non-armed redshirt walking around in that environment and you see someone - dressed in fuscia and dayglow green for all it matters - brandishing a large automatic combat rifle I really don't think your first thought is going to be to ask him to leave.

To suggest that all red-shirts actively agreed to have these people among their numbers is too far-fetched. So being 'part of the movement' is only true in the broadest possible sense.

If you believe that the movement has various wings with different agendas then it makes sense.

1) The people's wing = redshirts demonstrators and their guards

2) The police wing = do we have a national police chief yet?

3) The political wing = PTP plus banned PPP/TRT folks

4) The media wing = PTV, Prachathai etc.

5) The finance wing = Thaksin, bussinessmen, politicians

6) The presentable military wing = Chavalit and the other retired generals who joined the PTP camp recently

7) The non-presentable military wing = Seh Daeng and quite possibly the 'Unknown Soldiers'

The government and military have already stated they know who these unknown militants are and that they are being hunted as we speak.

[britmaveric]

^govt also said Khun T was deported from different countries and he was not. I think this govt has lost all credibility and really has no clue what is going on. Shocked how fortunes could change so quickly.

[way2muchcoffee]

^govt also said Khun T was deported from different countries and he was not. I think this govt has lost all credibility and really has no clue what is going on. Shocked how fortunes could change so quickly.

I think you are wrong. I think the government and military know exactly who did this, though I would agree that they are probably shocked at how their fortunes have changed so quickly.

Edited April 13, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[britmaveric]

Who knows maybe a movie will be made out of this? I don't think hollywood could write something better than this with so many twists/turns.

[hanuman1]

In the videos I have seen the guys in black can move freely around the reds indicating they are part of the movement.

I think this is wrong. If you are a non-violent, non-armed redshirt walking around in that environment and you see someone - dressed in fuscia and dayglow green for all it matters - brandishing a large automatic combat rifle I really don't think your first thought is going to be to ask him to leave.

To suggest that all red-shirts actively agreed to have these people among their numbers is too far-fetched. So being 'part of the movement' is only true in the broadest possible sense.

If you believe that the movement has various wings with different agendas then it makes sense.

1) The people's wing = redshirts demonstrators and their guards

2) The police wing = do we have a national police chief yet?

3) The political wing = PTP plus banned PPP/TRT folks

4) The media wing = PTV, Prachathai etc.

5) The finance wing = Thaksin, bussinessmen, politicians

6) The presentable military wing = Chavalit and the other retired generals who joined the PTP camp recently

7) The non-presentable military wing = Seh Daeng and quite possibly the 'Unknown Soldiers'

The government and military have already stated they know who these unknown militants are and that they are being hunted as we speak.

Okay, so how do you define a 'wing'?

When people spoke of the IRA in Northern Ireland as being the military 'wing' of the Sinn Fein political movement, they were talking about a relationship which was relatively close and accepted clandestinely by the 'leaders' of both groups as well as grassroots supporters. To describe Sah Daeng's paramiliteries as a 'wing' of the red-shirt movement I don't think is a direct parallel to the Northern Ireland example. At the most, the red shirt leaders would have known of Sah Daeng's involvement, but the question of whether the majority of red shirt protesters would have wanted them doing what they did is debateable, so to refer to those killers as a 'wing' of the red shirt movement suggests a degree of integration which I don't think exists.

Edited April 13, 2010 by hanuman1

[way2muchcoffee]

Who knows maybe a movie will be made out of this? I don't think hollywood could write something better than this with so many twists/turns.

Oliver Stone? Nah.

It would have to be done like one of those Chinese war epics.

[hanuman1]

Who knows maybe a movie will be made out of this? I don't think hollywood could write something better than this with so many twists/turns.

It would be a pot-boiler of the worst kind. And who the hel_l would represent the romantic interest?

[britmaveric]

^Nong Nat?

[MB1]

^exactly sacrifice a few army personnel to further one's agenda within the military. Anyone who doesnt think this is possible is also naive!

I don't think the military will allow some of the killings to go unpunished Brit somehow, below a piece from another thread..

It is a century-old tradition that graduates from Chula-chomklao Royal Military Academy come from the same feeding bowl, and hence will not kill their own kind under any circumstances. In the failed coup of 1977, General Chalard Hiransiri broke the sacred code by fatally shooting General Arun Thawathasin. Chalard was subsequently executed by a firing squad.

Chavalit and top generals backing the red shirts should know that Army commanders will not allow Romklao to die in vain. Justice must be served one way or another.

[mrparanoid]

...these black shirts and their sniper weapons running around with them..

Where have you seen sniper weapons? Are you making stuff up again? Thought so..

[hanuman1]

^Nong Nat?

Is that the middle-aged raver with the red hair or the scary dyke with the colourful fez-like thing on her head?

[way2muchcoffee]

Okay, so how do you define a 'wing'?

When people spoke of the IRA in Northern Ireland as being the military 'wing' of the Sinn Fein political movement, they were talking about a relationship which was relatively close and accepted by the 'leaders' of both groups as well as grassroots supporters. To describe Sah Daeng's paramiliteries as a 'wing' of the red-shirt movement I don't think is a direct parallel to the Northern Ireland example. At the most, the red shirt leaders would have known of Sah Daeng's involvement, but the question of whether the majority of red shirt protesters would have wanted them doing what they did is debateable, so to refer to those killers as a 'wing' of the red shirt movement suggests a degree of integration which I don't think exists.

When I say the 'redshirt movement' I am differentiating from the redshirt protesters. My usage of 'redshirt movement' is meant to describe all of the wings combined, whereas the protesters are just one part of a larger whole. I would think these wings are somewhat autonomous and given separate roles to play and tasks to fill.

Edited April 13, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[rafval]

This can all be stopped with the reds going home. Is risking your life really worth 500 Baht a day from Thaksin?

well thats the thing. until people are gainfully employed they will come down to protest in BKK for stimulation and cash. its a shame that the reds dont have any ideas how to do that, the system is such that who ever is in power gets the money, but until then this is probably going to happen yearly Edited April 13, 2010 by rafval

[britmaveric]

...these black shirts and their sniper weapons running around with them..

Where have you seen sniper weapons? Are you making stuff up again? Thought so..

Yet to see the SIG-Sauer SSG 3000, SR-25 crop up in any photos yet. (common sniper rifles in thailand) Only seen the M16 and AK47 which are unsuitable for a professional long range sniper.

[way2muchcoffee]

...these black shirts and their sniper weapons running around with them..

Where have you seen sniper weapons? Are you making stuff up again? Thought so..

Yet to see the SIG-Sauer SSG 3000, SR-25 crop up in any photos yet. (common sniper rifles in thailand) Only seen the M16 and AK47 which are unsuitable for a professional long range sniper.

But the M16 and AK47 are suitable from the rooftop of a 4-story building 50-100 meters away from the target. There aren't too many tall buildings in that part of town.

Edited April 13, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[hpl]

...these black shirts and their sniper weapons running around with them..

Where have you seen sniper weapons?

There's a number of photos with the black shirts with AK-47 and M-16 weapons as well other undetermined models. Any of these can be used as a sniper weapon. It doesn't have to be that monstrosity gun that Russell deceptively posted a picture of earlier or even the M-19 antique that britmaveric pictured to be a sniper weapon.

Edited April 13, 2010 by hpl

[britmaveric]

...these black shirts and their sniper weapons running around with them..

Where have you seen sniper weapons? Are you making stuff up again? Thought so..

Yet to see the SIG-Sauer SSG 3000, SR-25 crop up in any photos yet. (common sniper rifles in thailand) Only seen the M16 and AK47 which are unsuitable for a professional long range sniper.

But the M16 and AK47 are suitable from the rooftop of a 4-story building 50-100 meters away from the target. There aren't too many tall buildings in that part of town.

What makes you certain they were that close??

Not to mention need high caliber round (50mm +) from the looks of the head shot that the thai lad waving the flag took. (AK47/M16A wouldnt cut it)

Edited April 13, 2010 by britmaveric

[hanuman1]

Okay, so how do you define a 'wing'?

When people spoke of the IRA in Northern Ireland as being the military 'wing' of the Sinn Fein political movement, they were talking about a relationship which was relatively close and accepted by the 'leaders' of both groups as well as grassroots supporters. To describe Sah Daeng's paramiliteries as a 'wing' of the red-shirt movement I don't think is a direct parallel to the Northern Ireland example. At the most, the red shirt leaders would have known of Sah Daeng's involvement, but the question of whether the majority of red shirt protesters would have wanted them doing what they did is debateable, so to refer to those killers as a 'wing' of the red shirt movement suggests a degree of integration which I don't think exists.

When I say the 'redshirt movement' I am differentiating from the redshirt protesters. My usage of 'redshirt movement' is meant to describe all of the wings combined, whereas the protesters are just one part of a larger whole. I would think these wings are somewhat autonomous and given separate roles to play and tasks to fill.

Okay, I see what you mean. My interperation of 'movement' was more protester-centric as it's been them that have made up all the rallies etc. the degree of autonomy between the 'wings' as you describe them is surely central to the veracity of various claims around this forum re 'red shirt killers' etc etc etc.

[mrparanoid]

...these black shirts and their sniper weapons running around with them..

Where have you seen sniper weapons? Are you making stuff up again? Thought so..

There's a number of photos with the black shirts with AK-47 and M-16 weapons as well other undetermined models. Any of these can be used as a sniper weapon. It doesn't have to be that monstrosity gun that Russell deceptively posted a picture of earlier or even the M-19 antique that britmaveric pictured to be a sniper weapon.

My god.. Have you ever shot with either of those? They are hardly sniper weapons. And according to the autopsy most of the dead were shot expertly in the head or chest/heart region. Try that amidst the insane noise and chaos of a violent demonstration in the dark on a balcony 2-300 meters away from a moving target! Ha ha ha.. Good luck.

And by the way.. Show me some pictures of undetermined models.. I haven't seen any. I have seen only army issue weapons. M16/M4A1 and SAR-21. Oh.. And the Rubber-bullet Shotgun. A Bianchi I think. And 1 guy with an AKS-47 which happens to be a weapon the Taharn Prahn uses from time to time.

Edited April 13, 2010 by mrparanoid

[mrparanoid]

Let me give you guys something to think about..

I put together this picture from several different other pictures from both pro- and against- blogs.

On the left you have a 3 piece picture, where the text claims the "red shirt guards" caught an army sniper on the ledge above the red demonstraters where he had been hiding/shooting. Next you see him held hostage by the reds. On the 4 pictures to the right you see two red shirt guards carrying 2-3 army issue automatic rifles each... some without magazines and a gas mask. On the front of the shirt as I point out, he has a red shirt patch with the words "Down with the government/Dissolve the goverment" - and GUARD. On his shoulder, it looks like he has the Taharn Pran patch. (Wiki-Taharn Pran) The other, younger guy has GUARD written all over the back of his shirt. The Taharn Pran is a part of the Royal Thai Army by the way.

[imafaranggetmeoutofhere]

well i seen one of these what a soldier had in his hand also shown on french 24 news cilp i think it was page 24 to 28 i know my guns its a FAMAS F2. at the end of the vid they could have used this without any problems

Link http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...ctly-protesters

FAMAS

Type Assault rifle

Place of origin France

Service history

In service 1978–present

Used by See Users

Wars 1982 Lebanon War

Chadian–Libyan conflict

First Gulf War

Bosnian War

Afghanistan war

Production history

Designer Paul Tellie

Designed 1967–1971

Manufacturer Nexter

Unit cost F1: 1500 €

G2: 3000 €

Produced 1975–2000

Number built F1: 400 000

Variants F1, G1, G2, FAMAS Export, FAMAS Civil, FAMAS Commando

Specifications

Weight 3.61 kg (7.96 lb) (FAMAS F1)

3.8 kg (8.38 lb) (FAMAS G2)

Length 757 mm (29.8 in) / 965 mm (38.0 in) with bayonet

Barrel length 488 mm (19.2 in)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cartridge 5.56x45mm NATO

Action Lever-delayed blowback

Rate of fire 900-1000 rounds/min (F1)

1000-1100 rounds/min (G2)

Muzzle velocity 960 m/s (3,100 ft/s) (F1)

925 m/s (3,030 ft/s) (G2)

Effective range 300 m (F1)

450 m (G2)

Maximum range 3200 metres

Feed system 25-round box magazine (F1)

30-round box magazine (STANAG system) (G2)

Sights Rear aperture fitted with tritium night inserts, front post

Edited April 13, 2010 by imafaranggetmeoutofhere

[mrparanoid]

Now.. It is not exactly a secret that the Taharn Pran has been hanging with the red shirts all along, so why are everybody so surpised now?

[hpl]

...these black shirts and their sniper weapons running around with them..

Where have you seen sniper weapons? Are you making stuff up again? Thought so..

There's a number of photos with the black shirts with AK-47 and M-16 weapons as well other undetermined models. Any of these can be used as a sniper weapon. It doesn't have to be that monstrosity gun that Russell deceptively posted a picture of earlier or even the M-19 antique that britmaveric pictured to be a sniper weapon.

Have you ever shot with either of those? They are hardly sniper weapons. And according to the autopsy most of the dead were shot expertly in the head or chest/heart region. Try that amidst the insane noise and chaos of a violent demonstration in the dark on a balcony 2-300 meters away from a moving target

And by the way.. Show me some pictures of undetermined models.. I haven't seen any. I have seen only army issue weapons. M16/M4A1 and SAR-21. Oh.. And the Rubber-bullet Shotgun.

The blurry video of the 2 black shirts behind a tree firing an undetermined weapons. It's been posted.

As for the other weapons, yes, I have fired them and hitting a target at 100 meters is quote do-able with them. Most of the fighting and shootings occurred at fairly close range and many of the autopsied results reflect this.

While there are better weapons than an M-16 for sniping at greater distances, like your suggested 300 meters, they were not needed as the people being shot were not great distances away.

A good sniper, like I imagine the best sniper in Thailand Sae Daeng would have trained them to be, takes "noise and chaos" for granted when they are shooting. It bothers them not one iota.