Thai Protesters Remain Defiant In Bloodstained Bangkok

[steffi]

It Abhisit had given the rural Thais what they wanted when he took office do you really think their demands would be any different now?

[LevelHead]

The protestors should remain defiant in most peoples view.

The protests were non-violent until the government ordered the oppression of the opposition media, which must be considered an act of aggression.

Even with this there were no real injuries, a few bumps and bruises but that is it.

Nothing more violent happened until the government (Abhisit/Suthep) ordered the army to take back all area's using force.

That was the first act of aggression. The army failed, and also in the process many people were killed, some beaten to death, some shot.

The government objective failed (clear the area) and people died, and yet the leaders fail to appreciate this, refuse to resign and now blame others.

Anupong was very quick to call for Somchai to resign for his orders to the police, and yet they are all tight lipped when Abhisit and Suthep cause many more deaths due to their orders to the army.

However, looking back to the negotiations, Abhisit said "9 months is the earliest".

His decision to stick with 9 months caused the negotiations to end.

Now suddenly people are saying it can be quicker than 9 months.

WHY ?

Why the initial lies then, that led to the deaths of people, that it could not come quicker than 9 months ?

Are we now to see that 9 months was a lie, and it can be quicker ?

Whoever said 9 months, if they now change it to quicker it will mean they were a blatant liar, and helped caused the deaths of many people.

"Double standards" is the new standard.

The Reds have a slogan that many wear on them.

It says .....

"Everything I do is wrong, and everything you do is right".

Negotiation is not the solution, it never was. House dissolution and return the power to the people, it was the only choice, it now is the necessary choice too. This government was put in place by the action of the courts and a parliamentary coup hatched by the military it is said.

The people want the power back, give it to them and stop ordering actions that kill people Abhisit.

[kissdani]

i've just finished watching the video titled "Thai Army Opens Fire On Protesters, Protesters Hurl Grenades," and i have to say that the title is a little misleading. Nowhere in the video can you see the armying OPENING fire, you see and heard them respond, by firing into the air, which as the commentator says 'if they ae firinging into the crowd there would be alot more dead people hear'. This vidoe speaks volumes about the restraint of the army and how they tried to play by the rules. The actions of the reds - well watch the video, listen to the commentary and work out for yourself if the army really does open fire on the protesters.

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

one example of the thai army firing into the crowd can be seen at 1.25 in this video aired on French tv

in fact there are two examples, one just before 1.25 and one just after it

Were they also dragging away dead or injured soldiers before that? How would you expect them to respond after being blown up by a grenade?

Call for an artillery strike or a bomber pilot and napalm that zone where the grenade may have came from?

Soldiers are murderers. Kill other people is soldiers business. That is the reason that some people think it was a wrong move of Abhisit to bring in the army.

[rogerdee123]

It's easy to see why his people detest him so much, to the extent where even the army don't frighten them. Abhisit is seen as just another spoiled brat who holds the rural majority in contempt.

He couldn't be more distant from the rural masses; a son of privilege born in the UK to a well off family, educated at the best schools and universities until in his twenties, then back to Thailand to enjoy a life of privilege and opulence.

At least Thaksin had a few years in poverty when his dad squandered away the family fortune when he was young so they at least feel he has some sympathies with them, a fact he played on particularly effectively when he was participating in politics. He also regurgitates the mantra that he was a 'self made man', while not necessarily true, it is lapped up by the masses.

I find it odd that you failed to mention that both of these guys are ethnic Chinese and were raised in cultures not really at peace with the Thai way of doing things. Apparently you think this does not matter as is the case with the majority of posters here. I won't bother with the all dogs came from wolves story as it is no more relevant than these two guys having lived parts of their lives in Thailand. They are not Thais. I may become a Thai citizen at some point but I will always be a Farang. These two guys will always be Chinese.

A significant percentage of EVERYONE at the top in Thailand are ethnic Chinese and this is from ALL sides and includes ALL institutions in Thailand. This has been touched upon in previous posts and another thread.

Edited April 12, 2010 by rogerdee123

[termad]

I know the reds don't really care about destroying the economy of the country but it is the tourism sector and the Bangkok businesses that fund things like the 30 baht Health care scheme. In the end the rural Thais will lose out. The people from Bangkok will lose out. The only winners will be those get into the next government and skim whatever they can out of the public purse. That is what it's all about. We've seen reds intimidating journalists. We've seen reds threatening politicians. They are thugs pure and simple. They don't care about democracy they know they can buy the outcome they want anyway.

Funny I thought the Rural Folk produced a lot for the country but had nothing to spend or show for it and the Bangkok business' produced/manufactured nothing but had plenty to spend.

[plachon]

clockworkorange,

Do you know how the 30 baht program worked out????? It was underfunded and failed miserably. This along with other programs such as 1 million bath per village is there just to increase his popularity, but damaging the country/people in the long run.

Not at all. I know people who benefited from it.

Funnily enough, there was even a foreigner who said he benefited - a family member got free medicine that, if he had had to pay for it himself, would have run into several hundred thousand baht by now.

Ask around and you will find people whose lives were saved by a basic system of healthcare.

What "free medicine" was that? Being given paracetamol saved him several hundred thousand baht, eh?

If you knew a bit more about the 30 Baht scheme, you'd have heard that the poorest of the poor in Thailand got fobbed off with lousy care and little more than headache tablets under it, when they presented themselves at the rural hospitals. I should know, my father-in-law was one of them. He got sfa from Thaksin's "universal healthcare" and ended up going to private clinics and spending what little money he has when he was sick. The local hospital was useless. I heard far more horror stories than happy ones during that period for people getting treated under the 30 Baht scheme.

Ironically, the only people I knew who talked postively about the scheme were from relatively wealthy and well-connected families who could've afforded private medicine. It's also well known that Thaksin's family benefitted hugely from the scheme by buying shares in many of the private hospitals that were brought in and sucked public finds dry, causing major ructions in the Public Health Ministry and accusations of policy corruption. The Rural Doctors Association of Thailand also gave it the thumbs down and saw many of their members leave the public health service between 2001-2006, increasing the ratio between patients and doctors and causing much bad feeling due to the overwork. Think you should forget the Red ideology and do some ground research on this disastrous programme.

[Tod Daniels]

<SNIPPED OUT RHETORIC> (and deleted the tedious double spacing in every frickin' sentence of what I did quote!)

The Reds have a slogan that many wear on them.

It says ..... "Everything I do is wrong, and everything you do is right".

Care to link me a picture with a red with that phrase on a single person written IN THAI? It'd be about a two foot long sticker and would wrap around most thais bodies.

And how about using paragraphs instead of double spaced single sentences?

Recent history bears out;

When Samak (who ran under the "I am Thaksin's nominee" platform) won, he couldn't get a majority EITHER. He made deals with smaller parties to form a coalition which then gave him a majority of MP's in the Lower House thus the mandate to run the government. Once he was ousted over the "cooking show fiasco", and Somchai (Thaksin's brother-in-law) took over, he too needed smaller parties to hold a majority of MP's in the Lower House. When his party was ousted for "voting irregularities". Not to mention the by-elections which were held to garner representation for the banned MP's (where by each constituency voted for the MP of their choice again). That's when it became a free for all on who could get a majority of MP's behind them. In the end it was the "Friends of Newin" (the banned politician from Buriram) who swung it. Abhisit used the elected MP's to get a majority and thereby the mandate to run the government. Now, whether this can be traced back to the coup or to the plethora of illegalities which tripped up the old TRT/PPP and its latest incarnation the PTP; causing them to lose 43 seats in the by-elections, who can say.

Everyone refers to Abhisit as a yellow, but his party is the Democratic Party. The yellows have their OWN political party called the New Politics Party which btw holds NO seats in the current government

Also not a single thai person in this country EVER votes for a Prime Minister in an election. (That ain't how it's done here my less than astute thai political pundits.) They vote for a Minister of Parliament, who in turn votes for the PM of their choice in parliament. As I have said before; if, in their infinite wisdom the above voted in MP's decided to change their affiliation, and switch sides; an intelligent person might be lead to believe that it was for the best interest of their constituents, seeing as that's who voted them in (and could also vote them out next go round).

Dunno how you people can cry about giving the people what they want, when 400 of the MPs of the Lower House were elected directly from constituencies around the country while the other 80 members were selected using ‘proportional representation’ through party-lists. Not to mention the 76 members of the Upper House who were all voted in by the same people who you say 'want a voice'.

You don’t like whose in office now, next go round vote differently, and try to vote for people who don’t break electoral rules or violate the law as it is written. You don’t like the law as it is written, lobby your MP’s to change the constitution. Don't run rampant in the streets waving banners and crying about the injustice of it all.

[tgw]

Could someone please explain to me how it's possible that Arisman runs from one place to another causing disturbances, day in day out, even though there must be not one, but multiple arrest warrants out by now. It's not like they didn't know where he is.

I honestly don't get it. I don't understand that no arrest has been made at all, afaik.

Simple. If 2, 3 or even 100 police turned up to arrest him, the police would just get clubbed or worse.

To get a red shirt leader, a successful surrounding of his group plus a successful assault are necessary.

Do you believe the police controls the streets, and if a couple of them run up to a red leader, telling him "we arrest you, follow us, it is the law", it will be a successful arrest?

Edited April 12, 2010 by tgw

[grandpops]

Could someone please explain to me how it's possible that Arisman runs from one place to another causing disturbances, day in day out, even though there must be not one, but multiple arrest warrants out by now. It's not like they didn't know where he is.

I honestly don't get it. I don't understand that no arrest has been made at all, afaik.

Simple. If 2, 3 or even 100 police turned up to arrest him, the police would just get clubbed or worse.

To get a red shirt leader, a successful surrounding of his group plus a successful assault are necessary.

Yeah, just like saturday nights! Want to see thousands dead do you?

What most of you don't understand is the underlying pragmatic nature of Thais and their ability to change sides or ideas to suit.

Its all corrupt and all always has been. The CAT man is probably having a few beers and a laugh with them, after all, they are now acting more like a government than the Democrats. What with all that running away, hiding in army camps, bawling the army out to attack the protesters.

Look who is calling the shots these days. The change is happening now and the history will be written by the winners, as will the court summonses, so don't get too excited about the staged warrents issued by this regime, they will be worth as much as a falangs comments on a thai website when this is done. Sorry JD and gang, you are as inneffective as the rest of us!!!

Enjoy the change, you can't stop it.

[Old Man River]

Recent history bears out;

When Samak (who ran under the "I am Thaksin's nominee" platform) won, he couldn't get a majority EITHER. He made deals with smaller parties to form a coalition which then gave him a majority of MP's in the Lower House thus the mandate to run the government. Once he was ousted over the "cooking show fiasco", and Somchai (Thaksin's brother-in-law) took over, he too needed smaller parties to hold a majority of MP's in the Lower House. When his party was ousted for "voting irregularities". Not to mention the by-elections which were held to garner representation for the banned MP's (where by each constituency voted for the MP of their choice again). That's when it became a free for all on who could get a majority of MP's behind them. In the end it was the "Friends of Newin" (the banned politician from Buriram) who swung it. Abhisit used the elected MP's to get a majority and thereby the mandate to run the government. Now, whether this can be traced back to the coup or to the plethora of illegalities which tripped up the old TRT/PPP and its latest incarnation the PTP; causing them to lose 43 seats in the by-elections, who can say.

Everyone refers to Abhisit as a yellow, but his party is the Democratic Party. The yellows have their OWN political party called the New Politics Party which btw holds NO seats in the current government

Also not a single thai person in this country EVER votes for a Prime Minister in an election. (That ain't how it's done here my less than astute thai political pundits.) They vote for a Minister of Parliament, who in turn votes for the PM of their choice in parliament. As I have said before; if, in their infinite wisdom the above voted in MP's decided to change their affiliation, and switch sides; an intelligent person might be lead to believe that it was for the best interest of their constituents, seeing as that's who voted them in (and could also vote them out next go round).

Dunno how you people can cry about giving the people what they want, when 400 of the MPs of the Lower House were elected directly from constituencies around the country while the other 80 members were selected using ‘proportional representation’ through party-lists. Not to mention the 76 members of the Upper House who were all voted in by the same people who you say 'want a voice'.

You don’t like whose in office now, next go round vote differently, and try to vote for people who don’t break electoral rules or violate the law as it is written. You don’t like the law as it is written, lobby your MP’s to change the constitution. Don't run rampant in the streets waving banners and crying about the injustice of it all.

Todd, great post.

[lannarebirth]

What most of you don't understand is the underlying pragmatic nature of Thais and their ability to change sides or ideas to suit.

Its all corrupt and all always has been. The CAT man is probably having a few beers and a laugh with them, after all, they are now acting more like a government than the Democrats. What with all that running away, hiding in army camps, bawling the army out to attack the protesters.

Look who is calling the shots these days. The change is happening now and the history will be written by the winners, as will the court summonses, so don't get too excited about the staged warrents issued by this regime, they will be worth as much as a falangs comments on a thai website when this is done. Sorry JD and gang, you are as inneffective as the rest of us!!!

Enjoy the change, you can't stop it.

Actually, I understand that very well.

[tgw]

let's hope for a deus-ex-machina

[britmaveric]

"Abhisit must leave Thailand," Reds leader Veera Musikapong told supporters on Sunday. "We ask all government officials to stop serving this ]government."

If Abhisit does not leave I sure hope the leaders of the Reds do. It is the height of arrogance to insist they somebody leave Thailand like this.

Where are the Shinawatras held up whilst all this is going on?

Maye Abhisit can go to Dubai and get a room next to Khun T or be flat mates?

[golferchin76]

It won't be over "until it's over" and I don't see that happening any time soon.

The red shirts are just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter. He in fact is the prime guilty party.

And as so many have already said Abhisit demonstrated remarkable calm and restraint from 'day # 1'

Well, you got that totally wrong, didn't you?

These people are not "just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter" as you state.

They are people who are fighting for human and civil rights within their country of birth.

I assume that you are not a Thai national and therefore know little or nothing of the structure of Thai society.

Before you start adding "wise guy" comments as above, you should learn a little, live with the people a little, research a little - and then give a balanced view of the situation.

Abhisit is a puppet; the army are pulling the strings. And who are the army controlled by?

There are several tiers in the higher echelons of Thai society.

They do not want to lose the power, nor the opportunity to carry out their corrupt practices.

Power and money - these are the main concerns for "your" people - assuming that you are 'yellow', of course.

Totally agree about the comment concerning the motives, and it is simply sad that 21 lives perished.

Thailand's civil right went backward 20 yrs that day.

It reminds me of 20 yrs ago when university students died from clashes.

[golferchin76]

Also not a single thai person in this country EVER votes for a Prime Minister in an election. (That ain't how it's done here my less than astute thai political pundits.) They vote for a Minister of Parliament, who in turn votes for the PM of their choice in parliament. As I have said before; if, in their infinite wisdom the above voted in MP's decided to change their affiliation, and switch sides; an intelligent person might be lead to believe that it was for the best interest of their constituents, seeing as that's who voted them in (and could also vote them out next go round).

Dunno how you people can cry about giving the people what they want, when 400 of the MPs of the Lower House were elected directly from constituencies around the country while the other 80 members were selected using ‘proportional representation’ through party-lists. Not to mention the 76 members of the Upper House who were all voted in by the same people who you say 'want a voice'.

You don’t like whose in office now, next go round vote differently, and try to vote for people who don’t break electoral rules or violate the law as it is written. You don’t like the law as it is written, lobby your MP’s to change the constitution. Don't run rampant in the streets waving banners and crying about the injustice of it all.

Great insights you have there: now my turn.

1. In my understanding, a political system with a prime minister, is always that he/she is elected by people's representative. (correct me if I am wrong) My country, Taiwan, the people vote for a president directly. We voted our last one wrong, twice, and we corrected that by electing a new one hoping he will do his job well.

2. Citizens vote for their representative so they actually voted their prime minister, indirectly.

3. Therefore it is actually the people to blame, (maybe not a good word since we start to see blood) when wrong one came to power.

4. In advanced countries people are smart enough to vote for real representative with a heart to service and do good for the nation. Such is not the case of Thais.

5. Thais' civil right went backward 20yrs the day the yellow shirts resort to unlawful violence and disruption tactics to topple the government. When a minority can overturn a government, it is not a real democratic country. It is a what I called, "pseudo-democratic."

6. And that set an example for future political actions. If I don't like it, I can just resort to violences and disruption tactics, until I can bring down the ones I want to.

7. Worse is that military is involved in the whole process. Guns are for the defense of a nation, not for interference with politics, and certainly not firing into the citizens they intend to protect.

8. and we all know who's behind the whole thing.

9. I doubt all the Thai news I read nowadays. Not only they are annoying now, they are propaganda-based, biased.

best regards.

[TITI1971]

It won't be over "until it's over" and I don't see that happening any time soon.

The red shirts are just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter. He in fact is the prime guilty party.

And as so many have already said Abhisit demonstrated remarkable calm and restraint from 'day # 1'

Well, you got that totally wrong, didn't you?

These people are not "just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter" as you state.

They are people who are fighting for human and civil rights within their country of birth.

I assume that you are not a Thai national and therefore know little or nothing of the structure of Thai society.

Before you start adding "wise guy" comments as above, you should learn a little, live with the people a little, research a little - and then give a balanced view of the situation.

Abhisit is a puppet; the army are pulling the strings. And who are the army controlled by?

There are several tiers in the higher echelons of Thai society.

They do not want to lose the power, nor the opportunity to carry out their corrupt practices.

Power and money - these are the main concerns for "your" people - assuming that you are 'yellow', of course.

Who is pulling the strings and craving the power for the red shirts? How good is the human and civil rights record of this particular person?

-Remotely, Thaksin and locally the deranged leaders on scene.

-They have turned it into a disgrace.

-I still support the goals of the red masses but no longer can, in good conscience, support the insane inflammatory actions of their leaders. I can only condemn them.

-Despite it seeming a retreat, I think withdrawing and reforming later as a political force/party divorced completely from Thaksin and his Lieutenants is probably the best way forward.

-The government has it's own big issues as well.

-I think Abhisit has proven he is probably one of the few PM worthy politicians in this country.

-I don't think how he got there is right, but, he is there now. (lets just disagree w/o rehashing the argument please)

-I would prefer he remained PM rather than the list of horrible horrible choices that could replace him from the Democrats, the reds, or the army.

-I think he is one of the few who can possibly contain this firestorm which threatens to envelop the nation.

-I hope he can calm it down without further violence.

-I think one of the big steps towards this is getting out of the blame game and stating clearly all sides own blame in this drama.

-I hope he can keep the lid shut on the military coup aspirations and the aspirations of more radical semi-associated groups (such as PAD) to use this as an opportunity to rage their own war against the poor.

not bad... but you forget to say for Abhisit...

- I hope he will stop to lie to Thai peoples and I hope he will stop to use pressure and control oriented on every media (oups, I almost use the word censorship).

[tgw]

These people are not "just a crazed group egged on by the former head waiter" as you state.

They are people who are fighting for human and civil rights within their country of birth.

Yes and no.

The red mass believes that's what they are fighting for, but look at the red leaders' personalities and ties with Thaksin.

And where does the money come from? The reds cost a minimum of 4 to 5 million USD per day.

The mob is misused by their criminal leaders.

Their goal is to take over Thailand. Luang Ta Maha Bua was right about Thaksin and his cronies. You see the result now.

The people who fuel the reds and who organize the violence have no interest in helping the poor to obtain more money or democracy.

Unfortunately, it seems like the red leadership has proven itself to be shrewd than their government counterplayers and brought the country into a situation which cannot be solved at the current level.

They should have done away with Thaksin one year ago.

A CIA-style kidnapping to bring him to justice in Thailand would have been the best thing. Too late now.

[scotbeve]

I have refrained from commenting so far mainly because the situation is so desperately sad it just doesn't give any pleasure to score political points.It is however worth pointing out that at this stage it simply isn't possible to attribute blame for violence (or initiating violence) to one side or the other.I have looked very carefully at the evidence that's available and much of it is contradictory or obscure.I suppose this is the "fog of war" factor but in due course a better picture will emerge.It always does.In situations like this it is extraordinarily difficult to prevent a spark spreading into a bush fire.

My sympathies are broadly red.However I would ask that those who share my sympathies (those who don't won't pay me attention) do not post attributing blame to the security forces who have generally done extremely well.The honest answer is that we don't yet know who is to blame and it will take time for a clear understanding to emerge.

I agree jayboy.

I saw an excellent quality video in the last couple of days showing when the situation escalated to bloody violence.

The army were standing there doing very little. The reds were dancing to their music. There was no antagonism between groups at that point.

And then, suddenly, a shot is heard. And then all hel_l breaks loose.

There is no way anyone could say where it came from.

There has been video of the army shooting at protestors (but this was being done while they were dragging some dead and injured soldiers to safety).

There has been video of men walking amongst the protestors with machine guns.

All one can say for sure, is that it is no surprise it has come to this. And it's a sad time for Thailand that it has come to this.

There's rumors of BLACK shirts involved with stirring the proverbial pot!

[tgw]

NOT a rumor!

[kissdani]

Not accurate --- what you see is someone that is probably army discharging a weapon. what you do NOT see is who or what he is shooting at. The french channel seems to say that this occurs just after the grenade attack. Sae Daeng, a red leader, has claimed responsibility for the grenade attack.

yes of course, people just shoot at nothing while wearing military uniforms, not a random i might add, but obviously amongst other soldiers

One standing and one crouching, firing directly ahead and from the reporter that was there firing directly at the protesters but hey i guess you had a better view from chaing mai than the person that actually filmed at and reported it.

is there no end to the nonsense that you can spout in defence of the murderous abhisit?

oh, and do show me a link to the admittance of sae deang that he threw this particular grenade, using your twisted logic it is just as possible that it was dropped by one of the soldiers,just as possible in fact considering how useless they are.

He siad his "Ronin" did it. It wasn't a hand grenade.

Feel free to find the article yourself

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Ronin...y-30127000.html

There are mentions in other press sources from sae Daeng claiming the same thing.

After a grenade attack the use of suppressing fire would be a standard thing to keep the enemy from regrouping and attacking yet again. Your hyperbole is showing

http://us.asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-p...tely-unprepared

Please read the articles and check if they say the same thing as you claim.

NO. He didn't say that it has been his Ronins. He just said the same thing what the government said. There was a third force that throw grenades into the battle. He gave that unknown group a fancy name 'ronin fighter' and claims to know their motivation. This doesn't make Sea Deang to their leader or that he is responsible for it? No! Understand the difference?

Look, Abhist also speaks of a third force, calling them The terrorists, the PM said there is clear evidence which pointed to there being "terrorists" among the innocent people demanding democracy.

Thanks for the link to Bangkok Pundit he offers full translation of Sea Deangs words as reported in the Thai newspaper Matichon, contains some interesting spins more, unlike the halftruth written in The Nation.

Not one for quoting Seh Daeng, but he referred to the military being leaderless at a point - will include the full quote of what he said given the controversy. Matichon reports him as saying the mistake of the Army C-in-C was to use snipers on the building at Satri Wittaya school and this caused many people to die (¤ÇÒÁ¼Ô´¢Í§ ¼º.·º. ¤×Íãªé¤¹«ØèÁÂÔ§·Õ躹ËÅѧ¤ÒµÖ¡âçàÃÕ¹ʵÃÕÇÔ·ÂÒ «Öè§ÊÒà˵طÕ褹µÒ¨ӹǹÁÒ¡) because the result of using snipers to kill the people first (à¾ÃÒоūØèÁÂÔ§¢Í§·ËÒÃä´éÂԧŧÁÒãÊè»ÃЪҪ¹¡è͹) caused one group of persons whose identity is unknown or the Ronin fighters to respond (·ÓãËé¡Í§¡ÓÅѧäÁè·ÃÒº½èÒÂËÃ×͹ѡúâùԹÂÔ§µÍºâµé) by using a M79 grenade which then hit the military tent next to Satri Wittaya school which the military used as the command centre (ÅÙ¡ÃÐàºÔ´àÍçÁ 79 ÅÙ¡áá·ÕèÂÔ§à¢éÒ仵¡àµç¹·ì·ËÒâéÒ§âçàÃÕ¹ʵÃÕÇÔ·ÂÒ ·Õèãªéà»ç¹¡Í§ºÑ­ªÒ¡ÒÃú¤ÃÑ駹Õé) and this caused a serious injury to Maj General Valit the Commander of the forces (·ÓãËéâ´¹ ¾Å.µ.ÇÅÔµ..«Öè§à»ç¹áÁè·Ñ¾ã¹¡Ò÷ÓÈÖ¡¤ÃÑ駹ÕéºÒ´à¨çºÊÒËÑÊ) and many other senior military officials (áÅÐâ´¹¹Ò·ËÒêÑé¹ÊÑ­­ÒºÑµÃËÅÒ¤¹¡çºÒ´à¨çº) so there was no commander to issue orders (·ÓãËé¡ÒÃÈÖ¡¤ÃÑ駹ÕéäÁèÁÕ¤¹ÊÑè§).

Exactly that attack was at the moment again on the Thai TV cannels, nobody comments on Sea Deang or talks about any snipers under the army command that killed people and nobody blames Sea Deang.

And footage that shows killed or injured red shirts from the night of the 'battle' don't exist on Thai TV. The death rate und the number of injuries is higher on the red side, but they are visual not represent. The government don't want to admit that the whole operation was a big failure and that they should take some responsibility.

Saturday was a sad day for Thailand, that and now the handling of the aftermath puts Abhisit on the bad, worse, worst List of the PMs thailand had in the last 30 years.

[Pakboong]

It's easy to see why his people detest him so much, to the extent where even the army don't frighten them. Abhisit is seen as just another spoiled brat who holds the rural majority in contempt.

He couldn't be more distant from the rural masses; a son of privilege born in the UK to a well off family, educated at the best schools and universities until in his twenties, then back to Thailand to enjoy a life of privilege and opulence.

At least Thaksin had a few years in poverty when his dad squandered away the family fortune when he was young so they at least feel he has some sympathies with them, a fact he played on particularly effectively when he was participating in politics. He also regurgitates the mantra that he was a 'self made man', while not necessarily true, it is lapped up by the masses.

I find it odd that you failed to mention that both of these guys are ethnic Chinese and were raised in cultures not really at peace with the Thai way of doing things. Apparently you think this does not matter as is the case with the majority of posters here. I won't bother with the all dogs came from wolves story as it is no more relevant than these two guys having lived parts of their lives in Thailand. They are not Thais. I may become a Thai citizen at some point but I will always be a Farang. These two guys will always be Chinese.

A significant percentage of EVERYONE at the top in Thailand are ethnic Chinese and this is from ALL sides and includes ALL institutions in Thailand. This has been touched upon in previous posts and another thread.

I am not talking about anthropology. I am talking about living a Chinese life in Thailand to include Chinese schools. Today!!!

[PETDCAT]

At least Thaksin had a few years in poverty when his dad squandered away the family fortune when he was young so they at least feel he has some sympathies with them, a fact he played on particularly effectively when he was participating in politics. He also regurgitates the mantra that he was a 'self made man', while not necessarily true, it is lapped up by the masses.

The Thai rural majority don't see Thaksin as poor and underprivileged one bit. On the contrary they all know how phenomenally rich he is, and what a privileged life he leads. The reasons why they like him are a lot more basic than that: Thaksin is seen as the one who stood up for the rural population in tangible ways, like bringing in healthcare - everyone has the righ to seee a doctor for 30 Baht - and other schemes that directly improved the lot of the average Somchai.

Abhisit, on the other hand, is seen as just another ineffectual puppet, installed at Prem's / the army's behest rather than democratically elected. The rural majority despise him because he talks all the time and doesn't get anything done. Even more so now, as Abhisit cowers in his hole hiding from his people, he is seen by the rural majority as no more than a craven-hearted brat who has nothing at all in common with his people. He is now seen as spitefully lashing out by killing his own people to keep the seat that he stole in the first place, and they hate him all the more for it.

It's ironic how Abhisit's political career has been spaded under by the very people that he dismissed as irrelevant - he the other Dems wasted their chances to impress the rural majority over the years. See how Abhisit now realises his mistake by making a clumsy u-turn, only just last week announcing a new scheme for helping the rural masses via debt relief.

Too little, too late, and good riddance.

Even more so now, as Abhisit cowers in his hole hiding from his people

If there is anyone hiding out I think he is in Dubai. I believe his entire family is out of the country. Of course they had travel plans to go shopping before this whole demonstration happened but that is just a coincidence.

Only His mercenary Army is here to fight to reclaim his fortune.Sorry I mean Democracy. I wonder,if the Thai Government proposed a deal with Taksin,They would return all His money if He would recall His troops and stay out of Thai politics,do you think He would go for it?Or do you think He would rather risk losing everything but get a new election for His country?

[scotbeve]

NOT a rumor!

And is it me or does this black shirt clad lad seem either A.) very surprised to get his pic taken or B.) very annoyed at getting his picture taken?

Can't make out what he's doing with his right hand...

What are Newin's and Sutheps favorite colors?

Edited April 12, 2010 by scotbeve

[tgw]

probably both.

The journalist who took the pic wrote that they very much objected to being photographed.

The link to the article was posted on the boards, but I remember neither the paper nor the thread...

These people are military-trained professional criminal-murderers.

They are paid by someone who needs violence to erupt.

Edit: found it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/11/world/asia/11thai.html

Edited April 12, 2010 by tgw

[anotherpeter]

<snip>

5. Thais' civil right went backward 20yrs the day the yellow shirts resort to unlawful violence and disruption tactics to topple the government. When a minority can overturn a government, it is not a real democratic country. It is a what I called, "pseudo-democratic."

<snip>

best regards.

A couple of clarifications on this point:

1) The yellows didn't topple the Somchai government. (Occupying the airport was still illegal and very bad for the country)

2) The courts didn't even topple the Somchai government.

3) The smaller coalition parties DID topple the Somchai government.

Samak and Somchai were PMs not because they won any election. They were there because the smaller parties supported them and a majority of elected MPs voted for them.

After the PPP were disbanded, the PTP (where most of the PPP MPs moved to) could still have formed government if the smaller parties supported them.

The smaller parties decided to support the Democrats (which they had campaigned to do during the election), so a majority of MPs voted for Abhisit as PM, which put the Democrats in government.

[anotherpeter]

I have refrained from commenting so far mainly because the situation is so desperately sad it just doesn't give any pleasure to score political points.It is however worth pointing out that at this stage it simply isn't possible to attribute blame for violence (or initiating violence) to one side or the other.I have looked very carefully at the evidence that's available and much of it is contradictory or obscure.I suppose this is the "fog of war" factor but in due course a better picture will emerge.It always does.In situations like this it is extraordinarily difficult to prevent a spark spreading into a bush fire.

My sympathies are broadly red.However I would ask that those who share my sympathies (those who don't won't pay me attention) do not post attributing blame to the security forces who have generally done extremely well.The honest answer is that we don't yet know who is to blame and it will take time for a clear understanding to emerge.

I agree jayboy.

I saw an excellent quality video in the last couple of days showing when the situation escalated to bloody violence.

The army were standing there doing very little. The reds were dancing to their music. There was no antagonism between groups at that point.

And then, suddenly, a shot is heard. And then all hel_l breaks loose.

There is no way anyone could say where it came from.

There has been video of the army shooting at protestors (but this was being done while they were dragging some dead and injured soldiers to safety).

There has been video of men walking amongst the protestors with machine guns.

All one can say for sure, is that it is no surprise it has come to this. And it's a sad time for Thailand that it has come to this.

There's rumors of BLACK shirts involved with stirring the proverbial pot!

But Jatuporn has denied that:

The UDD leader accused the government of distorting information and insisted that no third party intervened to cause unrest.

So it must have been the reds carrying the M-16's.

[britmaveric]

What are Newin's and Sutheps favorite colors?

BLUE

[slapout]

Well those mysterious gunmen may be labeled many things, how about conspicuous. One or both sides must have been aware of their presence prior to the initial configuration between army and protesters. If someone came to my party while the dance was going on with a AK47 or M16, someone would notice. The lack of intelligence by both groups as to each others intentions, weapons, deployment, etc says several things about the military and the leaders of both groups, none good that are readily evident. It appears that both groups (govt. and red) are amateurs who think they are in a playground, not realizing the professionals own the playground and have them vastly outclassed.

[tgw]

Yellows plan massive rallies starting in Bangkok on April 18...

There you go...

Holy crap!

They have to stop this... NOW.

[way2muchcoffee]

Not accurate --- what you see is someone that is probably army discharging a weapon. what you do NOT see is who or what he is shooting at. The french channel seems to say that this occurs just after the grenade attack. Sae Daeng, a red leader, has claimed responsibility for the grenade attack.

yes of course, people just shoot at nothing while wearing military uniforms, not a random i might add, but obviously amongst other soldiers

One standing and one crouching, firing directly ahead and from the reporter that was there firing directly at the protesters but hey i guess you had a better view from chaing mai than the person that actually filmed at and reported it.

is there no end to the nonsense that you can spout in defence of the murderous abhisit?

oh, and do show me a link to the admittance of sae deang that he threw this particular grenade, using your twisted logic it is just as possible that it was dropped by one of the soldiers,just as possible in fact considering how useless they are.

What is the sense of firing rubber bullets away from the crowd?

The point is to make them back off. But not to kill them.

The army was under armed compared to the reds prepared to kill for their cause.

please do not exagerate even Anupong is not accusing the Red shirts of killings, on contrary.

May I remember you that if there were there a proper Anti-Riot Police Force, the situation will be quite different today.

Army is a mosaic with dissidents taking some revenge about some internal decisions, this is a thesis wich get more and more probability. In any case, it should not be the role of conscript soldiers. Army should focus on External threats. This is an Internal affair. Today, change your rhetoric and help to build Peace, Abhisit is now an obstacle for building the Peace between Thais. He has to be removed this being said independantly of any opinion we may have on the man. Because the sake of the Country is more important than one man. He should understand ....

The Red Shirts are now struggling for themselves. I understand them, I will not negotiate with the man who has created the situation in which my colleagues have died. On a pure technical political point of view, Abhisit is now an obstacle to normalcy, he must be sidelined.

How many times are have you written about your beloved French Anti-Riot forces? Really? 20, 30, 50?

This is not France. Thailand does not have such a force. Thailand uses the military for this kind of operation. This is how they have always done it and this is how it was done. It is Thai protocol. They use the military and/or police for riots. You may not agree with the protocol, but to then say it is an inappropriate use of the military is wrong. It is entirely an appropriate use of the military in Thailand, because Thais get to decide this. Not you, not me, but Thais.

Edited April 12, 2010 by way2muchcoffee