Thai Protesters Remain Defiant In Bloodstained Bangkok

[LevelHead]

The government said there was no live ammo.

That was a lie.

They then said there was some but only fired in the air to scare.

Then the story changed to it was only fired into the air OR only used when necessary.

Whoops.

Perhaps they saw this video leaked out and had to change their story fast ?

Looks to me clearly the soldiers are firing directly at the people at the end of this video on this report.

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

.

[chadintheusa]

Great timing, looks like the democrats face dissolution. Guess the kidnappers and terrorists will be the only ones left to mind things.

[tgw]

The government said there was no live ammo.

That was a lie.

They then said there was some but only fired in the air to scare.

Then the story changed to it was only fired into the air OR only used when necessary.

Whoops.

Perhaps they saw this video leaked out and had to change their story fast ?

Looks to me clearly the soldiers are firing directly at the people at the end of this video on this report.

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

actually it is not clear at all.

- we do not see who the soldiers fire at (is it the crowd or is it a handful of black-clad guys throwing grenades and wielding AK47s?)

- we don't know what type of rounds the army is firing, plastic or live?

- we do not know how exactly far away the target of the shots are, but from the camera swings it may be a 100 meters (plastic rounds are non-lethal at 100 meters)

- we do not know if the soldiers were returning fire or defending against further grenades

so we know nearly NOTHING about what this video is actually showing.

[bankokcrazy]

Great timing, looks like the democrats face dissolution. Guess the kidnappers and terrorists will be the only ones left to mind things.

Great

[LevelHead]

The government said there was no live ammo.

That was a lie.

They then said there was some but only fired in the air to scare.

Then the story changed to it was only fired into the air OR only used when necessary.

Whoops.

Perhaps they saw this video leaked out and had to change their story fast ?

Looks to me clearly the soldiers are firing directly at the people at the end of this video on this report.

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

actually it is not clear at all.

- we do not see who the soldiers fire at (is it the crowd or is it a handful of black-clad guys throwing grenades and wielding AK47s?)

- we don't know what type of rounds the army is firing, plastic or live?

- we do not know how exactly far away the target of the shots are, but from the camera swings it may be a 100 meters (plastic rounds are non-lethal at 100 meters)

- we do not know if the soldiers were returning fire or defending against further grenades

so we know nearly NOTHING about what this video is actually showing.

Please do not use the term "PLASTIC" bullets. These are the non-lethal ones.

The Army used RUBBER BULLETS, the ones not used in the UK for example as they can be lethal.

You saw two types of guns being used, did you see the modifications on them for firing rubber bullets ? Was it not only one type of gun that is modified for rubber bullets, so what was the other gun type ? for fun ?

Firing live ammo serves to warn people that they will be killed, thats why it is fired, as a warning generally so people can see the bullets and be scared.

However, you are supposed to fire it up near vertically, not horizontally.

[tgw]

The government said there was no live ammo.

That was a lie.

They then said there was some but only fired in the air to scare.

Then the story changed to it was only fired into the air OR only used when necessary.

Whoops.

Perhaps they saw this video leaked out and had to change their story fast ?

Looks to me clearly the soldiers are firing directly at the people at the end of this video on this report.

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

actually it is not clear at all.

- we do not see who the soldiers fire at (is it the crowd or is it a handful of black-clad guys throwing grenades and wielding AK47s?)

- we don't know what type of rounds the army is firing, plastic or live?

- we do not know how exactly far away the target of the shots are, but from the camera swings it may be a 100 meters (plastic rounds are non-lethal at 100 meters)

- we do not know if the soldiers were returning fire or defending against further grenades

so we know nearly NOTHING about what this video is actually showing.

Please do not use the term "PLASTIC" bullets. These are the non-lethal ones.

The Army used RUBBER BULLETS, the ones not used in the UK for example as they can be lethal.

You saw two types of guns being used, did you see the modifications on them for firing rubber bullets ? Was it not only one type of gun that is modified for rubber bullets, so what was the other gun type ? for fun ?

Firing live ammo serves to warn people that they will be killed, thats why it is fired, as a warning generally so people can see the bullets and be scared.

However, you are supposed to fire it up near vertically, not horizontally.

The army were issued with plastic ammo, which is being used for riot control also in neighboring countries.

Several sources confirm the issue of plastic ammo.

Plastic ammo is lethal up to a range of 100 meters.

Rubber ammo is fired from some kind of canister at the end of the weapon, yes.

And no, the vid didn't show such canisters.

The two types of weapons used were M16 or similar and a Tavor 21, or TAR-21.

Both have caliber 5.56mm and can fire plastic rounds.

Plastic rounds are fitted in exactly the same brass casings as standard 5.56x45 ammo.

But this discussion about ammo doesn't change the fact that the vid doesn't show what they were firing at.

If their target was guys with AK47s throwing grenades, I see no problems with their actions.

Edited April 12, 2010 by tgw

[britmaveric]

Unfortunately firing a weapon vertically - the bullet does have to come back down at some point.

[bankokcrazy]

Unfortunately firing a weapon vertically - the bullet does have to come back down at some point.

Boy killed by bullet fired 3 miles away

[sotsira]

Don't lose sight of the bigger picture in all this "who did what to whom first debate" -- the rural underclass has spent generation after generation under the heels of the elite in Bangkok. Who could blame them when all that pent-up anger comes to the surface?

Unfortunately getting a better chance at equal opportunities will likely have to come at the end of a gun barrel. The elite have had a century or more to do the right thing, but they didn't even try. The poor will have to prise the grip of the elite lose with force. They tried through the ballot box and the elite used the army, the courts and twisting the legal system to negate the results of elections the pro-poor candidates won.

What else is then left but violence?

Spot on!

I've been trying to put the same point accross since last Thursday, but most posters on this forum have tunnel vision and don't seem to have the ability to see the wider picture.

This isn't about Taksin or Abisit or yellow and red, it's about a country that has such a wide social divide that the people have no common ideology anymore and the rich will always use their moneyand education to manipulate the poor through greed and corruption.

Unfortunately the poor are the majority of the population and when push comes to shove they have nothing or very little to lose so they will fight ti'll they get what they deserve, eqaulity as human beings.

They may not be educated but they understand the power of numbers hand in hand, and thats what they are trying to achieve at present and then the ballot box.

[Sunderland]

I think everyone including the government have actually forgotten that there is still a state of emergency.

The reds.have their TV station reconnected and are roaming around the streets. No arrests appear to have been made. I expect you can drive into Bangkok now from upcountry without passing checkpoints with bombs, guns and goodness knows what else in the back of the pick-up.

Was anyone arrested for anything on Saturday or since then?

I expect people still risk going to jail if they overstay their visa which is obviously a much greater crime than inciting violence, throwing objects at soldiers or killing people. Have the police all gone upcountry now to celebrate Songkran???

[hammered]

I think everyone including the government have actually forgotten that there is still a state of emergency.

The reds.have their TV station reconnected and are roaming around the streets. No arrests appear to have been made. I expect you can drive into Bangkok now from upcountry without passing checkpoints with bombs, guns and goodness knows what else in the back of the pick-up.

Was anyone arrested for anything on Saturday or since then?

I expect people still risk going to jail if they overstay their visa which is obviously a much greater crime than inciting violence, throwing objects at soldiers or killing people. Have the police all gone upcountry now to celebrate Songkran???

Exactly. Nobody is in control of the capital. There is a power vacuum and it suits the big players. The usual Songkhran burglars targetting empty houses will no doubt enjoy. Bangkok is like devoid of loads of people and for at least the next 3 days remains a relatively open battle field if someone want to have a go.

Nobody seems ot have any idea of what happens next.

[britmaveric]

Agree I think those in play are thinking <deleted> do we do now? Must admit this theater in motion w/many twists/turns. Unfortunate part it's shame that people got injured/killed over the games being played.

Edited April 12, 2010 by britmaveric

[tgw]

first there will be a pause.

a red shirt leader told 70% of red shirts went back to their families to celebrate songkran.

[clockworkorange]

The government said there was no live ammo.

That was a lie.

They then said there was some but only fired in the air to scare.

Then the story changed to it was only fired into the air OR only used when necessary.

Whoops.

Lying and deluding the public is all Abhisit and his corrupt buch of sleazy cronies have ever done. They lied so much that they believed in it. They lied about being clean, and now what a surprise! Their party facing dissolution for corruption. What poetic justice.

Why should now be any different?

[Neurath]

Don't lose sight of the bigger picture in all this "who did what to whom first debate" -- the rural underclass has spent generation after generation under the heels of the elite in Bangkok. Who could blame them when all that pent-up anger comes to the surface?

Unfortunately getting a better chance at equal opportunities will likely have to come at the end of a gun barrel. The elite have had a century or more to do the right thing, but they didn't even try. The poor will have to prise the grip of the elite lose with force. They tried through the ballot box and the elite used the army, the courts and twisting the legal system to negate the results of elections the pro-poor candidates won.

What else is then left but violence?

Spot on!

I've been trying to put the same point accross since last Thursday, but most posters on this forum have tunnel vision and don't seem to have the ability to see the wider picture.

This isn't about Taksin or Abisit or yellow and red, it's about a country that has such a wide social divide that the people have no common ideology anymore and the rich will always use their moneyand education to manipulate the poor through greed and corruption.

Unfortunately the poor are the majority of the population and when push comes to shove they have nothing or very little to lose so they will fight ti'll they get what they deserve, eqaulity as human beings.

They may not be educated but they understand the power of numbers hand in hand, and thats what they are trying to achieve at present and then the ballot box.

In Thailand "equality is nullity, where there is no-one to see and no-one to be seen by."

[scotbeve]

Don't lose sight of the bigger picture in all this "who did what to whom first debate" -- the rural underclass has spent generation after generation under the heels of the elite in Bangkok. Who could blame them when all that pent-up anger comes to the surface?

Unfortunately getting a better chance at equal opportunities will likely have to come at the end of a gun barrel. The elite have had a century or more to do the right thing, but they didn't even try. The poor will have to prise the grip of the elite lose with force. They tried through the ballot box and the elite used the army, the courts and twisting the legal system to negate the results of elections the pro-poor candidates won.

What else is then left but violence?

Spot on!

I've been trying to put the same point accross since last Thursday, but most posters on this forum have tunnel vision and don't seem to have the ability to see the wider picture.

This isn't about Taksin or Abisit or yellow and red, it's about a country that has such a wide social divide that the people have no common ideology anymore and the rich will always use their moneyand education to manipulate the poor through greed and corruption.

Unfortunately the poor are the majority of the population and when push comes to shove they have nothing or very little to lose so they will fight ti'll they get what they deserve, eqaulity as human beings.

They may not be educated but they understand the power of numbers hand in hand, and thats what they are trying to achieve at present and then the ballot box.

There were / are multi-millionaires as well in the "Red Shirt Mob". 2 families are still in BKK - they've been there for almost 2 weeks..... twice a week they'll go to their hotel room for a good rest. Sleeping in tents and using common showers and toilets. I'd say that's a first!!!! And a VERY significant first when one thinks the great divide CAN shrink....

[EmU]

Brahmaburgers posted

Abhisit is not a puppet. He's also not an iron fisted tough guy,

So he needs all his backers to help him, remind him of the rewards he'll reap if he just hangs tough and keeps his chin up - leaving the armies daycare facility for scared little kiddies would be a good first step.

the thai army couldn't beat a bunch of boy scouts why dont they send the thai women out against them like they did in phuket against the bermese they won then maybe they could win now because it seems the thai army couldn't beat time with a stick.

[hanuman1]

Does anyone know what's going on at Rajprasong and Phan Fa right now? Are they down to a few hundred people sitting around doing nothing? Are the speeches still going on? It's amazing how a Songkran celebration apparently trumps even the most emotionally charged, nationally volatile situation.

Only in Thailand, I suspect.......don't ya just love it here?

[way2muchcoffee]

Does anyone know what's going on at Rajprasong and Phan Fa right now? Are they down to a few hundred people sitting around doing nothing? Are the speeches still going on? It's amazing how a Songkran celebration apparently trumps even the most emotionally charged, nationally volatile situation.

Only in Thailand, I suspect.......don't ya just love it here?

I suspect all sides are recuperating from events the other day. Information is being collected. Many meetings are taking place behind closed doors or over the phone. All sides are working out what they will do next and making contingency plans.

[TAWP]

Please do not use the term "PLASTIC" bullets. These are the non-lethal ones.

The Army used RUBBER BULLETS, the ones not used in the UK for example as they can be lethal.

There is no bullets that are labeled as non-lethal, at all.

All crowd-control gear setups include weapons and ammo that is less lethal - anything can kill especially if there is bad luck, secondary effects, medical predispositions etc involved.

You could theoretically be shot by a bean-bag and die from it, but I haven't heard of any primary cases yet...

[samtam]

Does anyone know what's going on at Rajprasong and Phan Fa right now? Are they down to a few hundred people sitting around doing nothing? Are the speeches still going on? It's amazing how a Songkran celebration apparently trumps even the most emotionally charged, nationally volatile situation.

Only in Thailand, I suspect.......don't ya just love it here?

Looks like it's about to get more entrenched again:

Red shirts abandon Phan Fa to bolster Rajprasong ground

By The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Decision made to bolster force and for safety measures. Relocation expected to be completed Thursday.

The red-shirt protesters have decided to abandon the Phan Fa rally ground to join their fellow demonstrators at the Rajprasong Intersection.

The decision to leave Phan Fa was announced by Natthawut Saikua at 10:30 am Wednesday.

He said red-shirts leaders at Rajprasong and Phan Fa reached a decision to abandon the Phan Fa site to so that the red-shirt force could be bolstered and have more efficiency.

"So, we will move our force from Phan Fa to Rajprasong, making it one big army to fight against the Abhisit government to the full extent," Natthawut said.

He said the red-shirt army at the Rajprasong will step up attacks against the government after the Songkran holidays.

He said the decision was made to avoid more clashes between troops and protesters.

"Since the government wants to reclaim the Phan Fa area, we will comply with its wish. Moreover, the government does not want to reclaim the Rajprasong area," Natthawut said.

He said the leaders assigned Jatuporn Promphan, another red-shirt leader, to explain the decision to protesters at the Phan Fa area.

The relocation would begin Wednesday evening and would be completed Thursday.

He said the protesters would not stage a march to the 11th Infantry Regiment because the red-shirt leaders learnt that the government was preparing to send troops to arrest the protesters during the march.

-- The Nation 2010-04-14

They've obviously realised that blocking off Rajaprasong is much more effective and annoying than occupying Phan Fa. It's the Red equivalent of taking the airport. It will annoy more people in Bangkok, and this situation will be exacerbated come Monday, when people try and return to work. There is complete lawlessness in this area, and it makes the "State of Emergency" a complete joke. Frankly I don't care who runs the government, but it would be rather reassuring if whoever it was actually had the tools to do so effectively. Time and again it is proved they do not, whether Democrat or TRT/PPP. The great threat of the army controlling the country seems illusory, based on their recent inept performance. No one appears to be in charge of the whole thing.

Edited April 14, 2010 by samtam

[samtam]

I needed some supplies, so I rang Central Chidlom to check that their store was open at about 3 pm, and was informed that it was. When we arrived at about 3.20 pm staff at the entrance told us the store was closing at 3.30 pm. Trucks and cars were beginning to block off Ploenchit Road all the way up to the Wittayu intersection. Went by BTS to Saladaeng. Silom Road is complete mayhem with water throwing, and road is completely blocked. Chaos reigns.

[Ricardo]

Unfortunately firing a weapon vertically - the bullet does have to come back down at some point.

Unless one hits a passing helicopter or surveilance-blimp ?