Advice Please re. Farming Isaan Land

[rio666uk]

Hi all, Im brand spanking new to this forum and have been reading with great interest about farming Isan land.

My wifes family are currently planting rice but have asked if we would like to do something with 30 rai that is currently unused.

They originally asked for us to finance a Eucalyptus Plantation, they favoured this as most of the villagers that grew Euc's before have now turned to Rubber Trees - thus creating a fresh demand for Euc's. After reading previous strings on this forum it seems clear that Euc's have some definate impact on the immediate land. The land is, apparently too high, to hold sufficient water for rice crops.

Can anyone give me a clue as what may be the way forward to use this land, Euc's, Rubber, other crops or even something such as livestock or fish farming.

Any ideas gladly welcome. Regards

[RamdomChances]

Well it all depends on if you want to invest in the land. Just growing crops will give you a samll profit pre anum. If you want to increase the potential profit you really have to do some investment .. water supply, fish pond, buildings for livestock ect.

Eucalyptus is really bad for the soil as it sucks all the nutrients out, and the return is not that good either, I think it was about 3000 bhat a ton around here and you would still have to wait a long time for your money. The advantage of it is that it takes virtually no looking after which makes it popular with "absentie landlords". Usually the easier it is to grow and look after the lower the profit.

Sugar cain might be ok- low mantainance, not that sensitive to rainfall, and once you plant it it lasts for about 4 years- about 3-4000 a rai profit a year..

We are doing penuts this year, I've been told the profit is very good upto 7000 bhat a rai for 100 days, you can grow all year if you have irrigation, wey season the profit is lower as anyone can grow it.

Maize about 2-3000 bhat/rai profit 3 months growing but you can only get one crop in, you have to plant something like sunflower or sorghram after as it needs less water but only gives you about 1000 bht/rai profit. People do cotton and soya around here as well but I dont really know much about that.

Fish can be good if you know what your doing and have the ponds dug for free (you have to give them the earth). If you have to buy fish food it can be expensive and its difficult to do on a large scale.

Beef cattle are steady with quite good returns and minimul capital investment for buildings (when compared with chicken,pork or dairy). There are a few threads talking about charolaise in thailand. You have to know the market though, how much to buy for how long to keep them and how much to sell, I deal with cows all the time but still am not that good when it comes to costing beef.

Chicken is problamatic due to the outbreaks of chicken flu, but the banks still love them as they see their money as being safe as it is spent on buildings rather than livestock. Most people doing chickens are tied into the big aggro companies Cp, Sara farms, Betago. They have their own vets, will help with loans ect. You dont buy the chickens but just keep them for 45 days, they weight them into you and then you weigh them at the factory when you send them back and you get paid for the weigh increase. You dont really have to know much about chicken farming to start on as the companies provide advice on everything which you HAVE to follow.

Pigs are taking off in a big way around here with the banks throwing money at prospective pig farms. There are two types one you just raise baby pigs, the other fatten them for meat. The big pig farms are run along the same as the chicken farms and controlled by the big agro companies.

Dairy is good but takes a fair bit of investment if you want to do it, the banks dont like giving money to help you out as most of the cost is in the livestock. You can probably build a small (10 stall) milking palour, barn, feeding station with machinry for around 300,000 that would do you for up to 20-30 cows.

You can expect about 2000 bhat profit (after feed costs) per milking cow. You have to "dry" the cows off 2 months before giving birth so you can expect around 20% not to be milking. Then you have staff costs electricity ect but the food is the bulk of the expence.

A decent milker will set you back about 30-45,000 bhat a head and you have to bear in mind that nobody sells their "good" cows without a good reason. A milker here will be good for about 10-12 babies and can be sold after for meat (15-20,000 depending on the size)

It takes anything from 2-3 years for breed a decent milker and you end up paying out a fair bit to feed all the calfs as your heard will increase by about 50% per year, its just you have to wait 2-3 years before you see any return off them, when they start coming through its good, next year I should be getting about 3 new milkers a month just from the calfs maturing, giving me the option of selling off some every month or increasing the size of my heard.

A bit brief on every thing but hope this helps, I'm not in Issan by the way but the info should still be relitive

Cheers RC

[rio666uk]

Thanks, thats a lot of help, I will go away and think about these options. Im not even in Thailand at the moment which is why your comments are very much appreciated.

peanuts eh.....

[RamdomChances]

I dont think I'll be anywhere near the 7000 bhat I mentioned profit/rai for peanuts as the guy who told me this only has about 4 rai, irrigated so he can sell out of season, they do everything them selfs so dont have labour costs and he keeps some peanuts back for re-seeding so he does'nt have to buy seed. It's still supposed to be pretty good though and tthe left over plant is excelent food for the cows... I'll let you know in about 2 months

[The_Moog]

Brilliant stuff by RC above - please put it on your blog - which i'll bookmark.

It's like The Archers !

[taxexile]

Pigs are taking off in a big way around here

gosh !!

pigs really can fly then ??

must be some serious profit there !

Edited June 1, 2005 by taxexile

[chownah]

Eucalyptus is really bad for the soil as it sucks all the nutrients out, and the return is not that good either, I think it was about 3000 bhat a ton around here and you would still have to wait a long time for your money. The advantage of it is that it takes virtually no looking after which makes it popular with "absentie landlords". Usually the easier it is to grow and look after the lower the profit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another post suggested that eucalyptus went for about 800 baht per ton. What do you think?

[RamdomChances]

Eucalyptus is really bad for the soil as it sucks all the nutrients out, and the return is not that good either, I think it was about 3000 bhat a ton around here and you would still have to wait a long time for your money. The advantage of it is that it takes virtually no looking after which makes it popular with "absentie landlords". Usually the easier it is to grow and look after the lower the profit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another post suggested that eucalyptus went for about 800 baht per ton. What do you think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your right it should of read 300 bhat a ton, but that was a while ago. I'll find out tomorrow as the co-op that buys my milk buys eucalyptus as well.

[Khutan]

My wife has been doing a business plan for the last 2 months. She wants to turn under 100 Rai of rice and do Cattle. At the moment, I can't see much of a problem. But I also have experience with Cattle.

Also consider what you have experience with and what you can do, you must retain some control.

Eucalyptus is really bad for the soil as it sucks all the nutrients out

Just like where it grows naturally ?

[aletta]

Locally pigs certainly seem to be in fashion at the moment.

[Jai Dee]

Pigs are taking off in a big way around here

gosh !!

pigs really can fly then ??

must be some serious profit there !

Sorry... couldn't help myself!

[chownah]

Hi all, Im brand spanking new to this forum and have been reading with great interest about farming Isan land.

My wifes family are currently planting rice but have asked if we would like to do something with 30 rai that is currently unused. 

They originally asked for us to finance a Eucalyptus Plantation, they favoured this as most of the villagers that grew Euc's before have now turned to Rubber Trees - thus creating a fresh demand for Euc's.  After reading previous strings on this forum it seems clear that Euc's have some definate impact on the immediate land.  The land is, apparently too high, to hold sufficient water for rice crops.

Can anyone give me a clue as what may be the way forward to use this land, Euc's, Rubber, other crops or even something such as livestock or fish farming.

Any ideas gladly welcome.  Regards

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First thing I would do is find out about the water available. Rain, irrigation canal, ground water.

If you have an irrigation canal find out where the water is coming from. Find out what months it will come and which it will not. Find out if the water source is suffering from slow salt buildup....it is my understanding that some reservoirs in Isaan are gradually becoming salty. Also evaluate where you are on the canal to see if you will have trouble getting water....if you are at the end you may have to fight for it and it might be a loosing battle.

Check out the soil. If it has high sand content then you will need a very consistent source of water and lots of it...if it has high clay content then it will hold water longer.....ponds dug in clay will hold water longer...if dug in sand then forget it. Don't just look at the soil on the surface....dig some holes....dig some deep ones....if you want a pond to be 2 meters deep then you need to see what the soil is on the bottom...of course you can alway spend more money and build pond liners but its good to know what you've got. Also do soil analysis to find out about fertility and micronutrients.....sample wherever you can find evidence that it may be different....if some land is flat and some is sloped then you need to sample both...if in some places the weeds look big and in other places they look small and sparse then you need to sample both places...go around and dig abit in the top 15 cm and if it looks or feels different in different places then you need to sample both. Where I live soil analysis is free so why not?

Check out the ground water. Ask everyone how deep is their well....ask them how deep they went before they hit the water and how high the water rose up into the well. Ask them if its a bit salty or bitter. Ask them if soap will make lots of suds in their water...or go wash your hands yourself and find out for yourself. Taste their water..just enought to see if its a bit salty. Dig a well on your property and see for yourself.

Water is the most important variable in farming.....This is so important that I will repeat it now....Water is the most important variable in farming....so do everything you can to find out about the water available in your area.

[rio666uk]

More great advice - thanks, I have always pressumed that soil analysis etc would not be free - I will make some enquiries, its hard to judge what can be done as alot of the surrounding is also unused although on my last visit there were some signs of controlled burning on some sites.

I first assumed that this land had once been a eucalyptus plantation but my wife tells me that this isnt so - it seems that the local farmers simply dont have the capital investment to put into the land - as the land is also higher than the surrounding its no good for rice... therefore they farm the lowland areas this time of year and then scarper off to bangkok for construction later in the year.

Intrestingly on my last visit to the village i noticed quite large scale liming of land - nowhere near ours but never the less...

thing is the land they were liming was very close to a large lake, was this to repel some of the moisture or to make to land less acidic?

[chownah]

More great advice - thanks, I have always pressumed that soil analysis etc would not be free - I will make some enquiries, its hard to judge what can be done as alot of the surrounding is also unused although on my last visit there were some signs of controlled burning on some sites.

I first assumed that this land had once been a eucalyptus plantation but my wife tells me that this isnt so - it seems that the local farmers simply dont have the capital investment to put into the land - as the land is also higher than the surrounding its no good for rice... therefore they farm the lowland areas this time of year and then scarper off to bangkok for construction later in the year.

Intrestingly on my last visit to the village i noticed quite large scale liming of land - nowhere near ours but never the less... 

thing is the land they were liming was very close to a large lake, was this to repel some of the moisture or to make to land less acidic?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've been trying to find someone who has seen liming and you are the first one. Are you sure it was lime? It could have been rice hull ash. If you can find out who did it and go talk to them. Go look at the soil and see if its really sandy or really clayey or whatever. Did you read my post above and did you go to the internet site? It could be they were adding calcium to the soil and were not concerned about acidity. I'd like to know whatever you can find out.

[rio666uk]

Hmmm - Ill have to look into this, as Ive said im in the UK so will have to ask the family if it was in deed liming that i saw.

I spent my apprenticeship years working near dockland arears on large construction sites - liming was commonplace there for driving out moisture before beginning ground levelling and pile-driving, i had just assumed thats what they were doing to the land near the resevoir.

Having said that it sounds as though adding calcium to the soil would look to be done in the same way - so appologies I will get back to you when im sure.

PS - what website?

[chownah]

Hmmm - Ill have to look into this, as Ive said im in the UK so will have to ask the family if it was in deed liming that i saw.

I spent my apprenticeship years working near dockland arears on large construction sites - liming was commonplace there for driving out moisture before beginning ground levelling and pile-driving, i had just assumed thats what they were doing to the land near the resevoir. 

Having said that it sounds as though adding calcium to the soil would look to be done in the same way - so appologies I will get back to you when im sure.

PS - what website?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gosh! Sorry about that!! I posted it in another topic. In fact you might want to check that one out since its mostly the same topic your interested in. Its in the same forum as this one (the Isaan Forum) and its titled "Land Reclaimation". You really should check it out. I'll put the link for the web site I mentioned above here along with an excerpt from the web site. You'll find exactly the same thing in the other topic (Land Reclaimation) along with alot of other input from lots of people.

---------------------------------------------------------

http://www.echotech.org/network/modules.ph...article&sid=557

Among other stuff it contains:

"Dangers of overliming

"In temperate region soils there tends to be little danger from adding too much lime, but this is not true of tropical soils. In fact, liming of most tropical soils is better viewed as calcium fertilization than pH adjustment, and the target pH should probably not exceed about 6.0, with optimum being more in the range of 5.0 to 5.5. In this pH range the aluminum and manganese concentrations in the soil solution are substantially decreased and these ions are no longer toxic to plants. Continued increase in pH, however, can cause molybdenum to become toxic. In addition, plants can become deficient in nutrients such as copper, zinc, boron, and manganese. This is both a result of these nutrients being less soluble at higher pH levels and decreased acid weathering of the few nutrient containing minerals still in the soil.

"Perhaps one of the most important problems of overliming tropical soils is physical, rather than chemical. As noted, soil permeability can be affected by liming. The structure in many tropical soils is stabilized by iron and aluminum oxides binding particles together and the structure has reached a high level of stability, accounting for the high infiltration rates and consequent rapid leaching of bases from these soils. Overliming can cause a destabilization of this structure and dispersal of soil particles, resulting in reduced permeability and lack of adequate drainage. Calcium and magnesium have a dispersing action that increases the number of small aggregates at the expense of larger ones. Presumably this is a case of sesquioxide (Fe and Al)-stabilized aggregates being dispersed by Ca2+. Since sesquioxide stabilized soils are typically found in the humid tropics, the reduced permeability, due to aggregate destabilization, can result is wet soils and complete change in the ecosystem. "

-----------------------------------------------

Edited June 3, 2005 by chownah

[bina]

BTW random chance might be able to shed some lighte on the soil analysis i would presume if he grows feed fodder for his dairy cows he would know what is in the soil since what is in the soil is eventually what his cows eat...

for instance, land w/shortage of selenium and copper in soil means lack of same in fodder and then farmer must add mineral supplements or shots (Se) for instance when raising sheep or goats (who suffer from white muscle disease if dont get Se in food....cows also need minerals etc so soil and or fodder analysis is a must

Cu (copper) also can cause animal health lproblems if not in fodder so farmers (big pros) usually do an analysis of fodder or soil... i dont, but i rely on word of mouth of larger operations, if they give minerals, then i do to since i by my fodder from same sources as them

.... so maybe random chance knows what i'm getting at

btw, peanut fodder is great, i dont use it but being used more in dairys here too.

the subsistence farmers usually dont know this stuff ...

an other rather amaeteur way to know how the soil is is to see what grows and what doesnt in the way of veggies (pale leaves, dark leaves, stunted whatever: lack of iron, cu, etc etc... my ex can look at a cotton plant and tell u what's missing in the soil....

but as i remind everyone: animals and plants dont read the theories; so mix what pros tell u and what happens really locally, in actuallity; keep a log of what u do, when u did it, what conditions (rain fall, temp, etc) and results, eventually u will see a pattern for what works best with your particular plot of land: also, on any given piece of land, there are better areas and bad areas and good farmers learn where each area is, and how to deal with it , year after year

[RamdomChances]

TW random chance might be able to shed some lighte on the soil analysis i would presume if he grows feed fodder for his dairy cows he would know what is in the soil since what is in the soil is eventually what his cows eat...

To be honest I'm a pretty cr#p farmer. Never even thought about having the soil analised. The land was rented out until last year( contract before I came out here) and last year I was so busy building the new farm we just planted Maize then Sunflower, so this is the first year I've really tried to get into growing stuff for the cows.

Most people here are fairly conservitive i.e they know the land and what grows well on it. This year I really want to get into growing fodder for the cows as fresh grass(pangola) has become too expensive to buy and I'm spending 20,000 bhat a month just on straw. Peanut fodder is excelent but you cant just feed that as you just cant get the quantity (the cows go through about a ton of hay a day). I've got some forage sorghram (yaa jumbo) in and we are just about to plant this stuff that looks pretty good Stylosanthes hamata http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Gbase/data/pf000065.htm its supposed to have about 17% protien which would make it even better than peanut fodder and it does not need much water. If it works well I may even be able to reduce the amount of concentrate food they get and thats really big savings as long as the milk yeild stays up.

The cows get mineral licks and vitamine suplaments to ensure they have the right stuff as its not that expensive

[bina]

random, if its 17% u might still have to give conentrate... goat milkers and preg get 18% in a concentrate mix (not cow pellets but mix: cracked corn, rolled oats, soy powder) and a 16% protein in their hay (the high protein is too expensive to buy even counting cost of concentrate).... whtas even more irritating is as the season pulls along towards february march, the hay quality is old already and have to feed more for same results (i learned the hard way as they started losing weight and less milk), until may comes along with the new harvest of new hay.... something i didnt think about of course but the pro's know this and then up the amount of concentrate....

didnt do hay or soil analysis either but many feed producers do this as a service if u are going to order a custom made concentrate they can make to balance what u are lacking.... maybe the thai agric. extension service can do this?

if u you are going to increase productivity and grow your own also, might want to check out all these things so u can go for the premium milchers (why waste money on AI from good studs if u dont work on the cows...

RC thats why your cow in the avatar isnt smiling

random, a cow joke for u that we use a lot in israel, when someone has a huge mess to deal with, they say: cow, cow

a farmer asked his bull how he can deal with so many cows, and the bull said: cow by cow (screw 'em one at a time) sounds better in hebrew...

[RamdomChances]

Bina, our milkers get 18% as well and 16% when they are being dried off. They get between 4 and 12 kg a day depending on how much milk they give and what their body condition is(fat cows are'nt that good as milkers). You can get concentrate up to 21% here but its expensive. We also give "Fang Mak" (urea treated rice straw) which ups the protine content to about 8-9% from about 3%.

I know that I will have to still give concentrate but if with decent forage I can cut it down by 1kg/cow/day it would save me about 13,000 bhat a month, messing about with the food is always a trade off between food cost and milk production, at the moment I recon its the most profitable its been since I've started although when we were buying in fresh grass we had the most milk output.

if u you are going to increase productivity and grow your own also, might want to check out all these things so u can go for the premium milchers (why waste money on AI from good studs if u dont work on the cows...

We usually dont buy premium sperm as the conception rates are poor and premium milkers are to be honest a pain in the butt, give me a nice average cow anyday, you tend to get far less problems with them than the real heavy milkers (coping with the heat, parisites, weight loss,milk fever,mastitis,conception rates.....) Average is fine as long as you only pay "average" price for it. About 50% of our calfs at the moment come from our own bulls in an effort to increase the conception rates (which has improved dramaticaly over the past year)

Cheers RC

[chownah]

About 50% of our calfs at the moment come from our own bulls in an effort to increase the conception rates (which has improved dramaticaly over the past year)

Cheers RC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is the male/female split on your calves and is it typical for both milkers and beef cows?

[billd766]

For me this is one of the most useful and helpful threads I have seen for a long time. I live about 150 km north of RC and we have about 15 rai of our own land, my wife has just rented another 11 rai and she has the chance of buying another 30 rai wihich is currently used as an orange farm.

We are into crop farming in a small way but no animals other than the dogs which seem to grow like weeds. Not a problem but they all meet and sing to the pork man in his pick up truck, at 6 in the morning. I have run out of shoes to throw so when I am home again I will take some rocks upstairs at night.

The biggest problem we have is getting water as the government supply runs out regularly. We have been talking about a borehole and my wife has talked to the Amphur and they told her to go and find a hole driller.

The land we own and the land we rent is on the frontage road but I don't know about the orange farm yet.

We are also talking about buying a tractor and I think we will go for a Kubota L3408 and get a blade and bucket for the front with a rake and harrow for the back.

I have bookmarked this thread and will download it every so often.

I am in Pakistan working but I will be back at the end of June for 10 days then back out for a couple of months.

Here in Pakistan they are still into donkeys, horses and bullock carts rather than the Kubota 2 wheel engines but are far better off as there is a lot of irrigation canals and water access compared to Thailand. However in general the poor people are poorer than Thailand.

Cheers Bill

[RamdomChances]

chownah, Its about 50/50 male/female, most of the bull calfs we sell just after birth as they are'nt really worth us keeping for beef, although it is possible to make money on them if you do it right. I just have'nt got the time or facilities here for looking after that many more cows, although sometime in the future I may.

The problem with Friesion calfs is that you sell the mothers milk, so you have to buy powdered for the calfs. That drops you profit by about 2500 bhat a head to start with. If I was going to do beef, I'd either do the local thai brahaman crosses or try and get into charolise.

Bill if you get a bucket on the front try and pay the extra for 4WD, it makes working with the bucket a LOT easier.

Dont know if you have this site:-

http://www.kubota.com/h/products/L2800.cfm

Edited June 5, 2005 by RamdomChances

[billd766]

chownah, Its about 50/50 male/female, most of the bull calfs we sell just after birth as they are'nt really worth us keeping for beef, although it is possible to make money on them if you do it right. I just have'nt got the time or facilities here for looking after that many more cows, although sometime in the future I may.

The problem with Friesion calfs is that you sell the mothers milk, so you have to buy powdered for the calfs. That drops you profit by about 2500 bhat a head to start with. If I was going to do beef, I'd either do the local thai brahaman crosses or try and get into charolise.

Bill if you get a bucket on the front try and pay the extra for 4WD, it makes working with the bucket a LOT easier.

Dont know if you have this site:-

http://www.kubota.com/h/products/L2800.cfm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi RC

The L3408 is a 4wd but I am going to have to either bring my wife with me or go on my own and get the brochures in Thai.

There is a big Kubota dealer just south of Nakhon Sawan so I will have a look on my way home.

[chownah]

chownah, Its about 50/50 male/female....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This statistic is really important to my future plans so I want to be sure I got it right. It would be really easy to get this one backwards so check again and be sure its right...is it 50/50 male/female or is it 50/50 female/malel?

[bina]

youre in thailand so u might have some that fall inbetween.........

[chownah]

youre in thailand so u might have some that fall inbetween.........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hadn't thought of that!!! How do you 'mooo' with a lisp?

[ray23]

TW random chance might be able to shed some lighte on the soil analysis i would presume if he grows feed fodder for his dairy cows he would know what is in the soil since what is in the soil is eventually what his cows eat...

To be honest I'm a pretty cr#p farmer. Never even thought about having the soil analised. The land was rented out until last year( contract before I came out here) and last year I was so busy building the new farm we just planted Maize then Sunflower, so this is the first year I've really tried to get into growing stuff for the cows.

Most people here are fairly conservitive i.e they know the land and what grows well on it. This year I really want to get into growing fodder for the cows as fresh grass(pangola) has become too expensive to buy and I'm spending 20,000 bhat a month just on straw. Peanut fodder is excelent but you cant just feed that as you just cant get the quantity (the cows go through about a ton of hay a day). I've got some forage sorghram (yaa jumbo) in and we are just about to plant this stuff that looks pretty good Stylosanthes hamata http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Gbase/data/pf000065.htm its supposed to have about 17% protien which would make it even better than peanut fodder and it does not need much water. If it works well I may even be able to reduce the amount of concentrate food they get and thats really big savings as long as the milk yeild stays up.

The cows get mineral licks and vitamine suplaments to ensure they have the right stuff as its not that expensive

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How many head do you have?

[RamdomChances]

How many head do you have?

About 100 head althogther, about 70 milkers.

[ray23]

How many head do you have?

About 100 head althogther, about 70 milkers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was wondering 20,000 baht of hay is a lot LAUGHTER.

I think the three beef cattle I'm going to try next year, will be a litle easier start.

How long has it taken you to build to this point?

You must have tremendous amount of land.

Is the milk industry pretty much the same here as in the states, a far as the hours are concerned?

I remember some very wealthy milk producing farms in California, but it was 16 to 18 hours a day seven days a week. They had beautiful homes and cars, but they never left the farm. I very serious comittment.